Poll: SCAR or ACR?


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Full Metal Jacket
November 10, 2010, 03:38 PM
which one would prefer and why.

Don't have to own either to vote in this pole, simply have a preference for one over the other if you had the cash :)

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Silvanus
November 10, 2010, 03:51 PM
Hard to get a useful opinion for this topic since there are probably few people who've shot both already... But since you said that doesn't matter, I would personally choose the SCAR. Manufactured by a very reputable company that is known for producing excellent quality military weapons, especially military rifles. And the feedback from users so far seems to favor the SCAR.

longdayjake
November 10, 2010, 03:53 PM
Had a chance to mess with the "military" versions of both. I actually liked the ACR more, but then again I am not bothered by the weight.

SpeedAKL
November 10, 2010, 03:54 PM
I've only shot the SCAR and it was friggen awesome. Great trigger for a fighting gun, great controllability under rapid rifle, very low recoil impulse, good ergonomics. I have handled an ACR but not fired it. I thought it's ergonomics were just as good as the SCAR but it was much heavier.

This one should probably get moved to Rifle Country section...

simulatedjim
November 10, 2010, 04:19 PM
Compared both side by side and the SCAR seems to have a lot more going for it. And don't forget to send your ACR back for the recall. Got 2 P-mags for the trouble.

Prion
November 10, 2010, 04:23 PM
Got 2 P-mags for the trouble.

Nice!

Glocked-N-Loaded
November 10, 2010, 04:33 PM
Where's the option for neither? I guess if I was forced into spending disposable income on one or the other I would choose the SCAR.

Full Metal Jacket
November 10, 2010, 04:37 PM
why would i include a "neither" option? i only want info on these two rifles--if you don't want or like either, then don't vote. it's just that simple ;)

Z-Michigan
November 10, 2010, 04:45 PM
SCAR, based on FN quality and military testing.

I've handled the SCAR and both handled and shot the ACR, FWIW. The ACR does have some things going for it, but I don't think it's nearly as field-ready as the SCAR, and the current asking price is laugh out loud funny.

ny32182
November 10, 2010, 04:47 PM
SCAR; it will hold its value better than a Bushmaster, has been through at least some level of military trials, and feels MUCH lighter when handled side by side. The SCAR's numbers don't do it justice as far as how light it feels.

However, I think the ACR is more likely to have the design capabilities of alternate barrels and calibers realized.

gunnutery
November 10, 2010, 06:27 PM
1. It's made by FNH
2. It has a .308 chambering
3. It's made by FNH

MTMilitiaman
November 10, 2010, 06:53 PM
SCAR 17S...why would I ever pack an 8.5 pound poodle shooter made by Shrubmaster when I can carry an 8.5 pound 7.62 made by a real weapons manufacture?

Gator06
November 10, 2010, 07:03 PM
I haven't seen or handled either one so I'm not commenting, but man 'o man it seems like there's nothing but hate for the Bushmaster. Apparently their products suck.

Zombiphobia
November 10, 2010, 07:14 PM
I chose the SCAR. I dunno why. It looks awesome, and is made by a company who makes some very nice military weapons. Also, it comes in 3 different chamberings. I dunno about the Bushmaster ACR. I've never fired any weapons by Bushmaster.

Balrog
November 10, 2010, 07:23 PM
I guess most people here are basing their opinions on their experience with these guns, but I wonder if it is real life or Call of Duty?

Carter
November 10, 2010, 07:27 PM
Other-XCR

but out of the choices the SCAR. Its battle proven, lighter, and has FN's reputation behind it.

MTMilitiaman
November 10, 2010, 07:31 PM
Maybe not suck...the one Bushmaster AR-15 I've shot did okay.

But lets not confuse Bushmaster with FN. FN is among the finest weapons manufactures in the world, already produces about 3/4 of the firearms our own military uses, and has been testing the SCAR with our military already for almost a decade.

I was more interested in the ACR before it was taken over by Remington and Bushmaster. The original concept from Magpul was intriguing, and that was back before published figures had it weighing as much as a milled receiver AK. People don't expect their poodle shooters to weigh that much, esp when they are made largely out of plastic. Let's face it--it doesn't matter what hard rock anthem you put on your site's Flash video or what ninja'd operators you have show the rifle off--your market is pretty small with a $2800 MSRP for the basic, no frills carbine, and it only gets smaller when that carbine is over eight pounds. People can get a LMT MRP with or without the piston in 5.56 or 6.8 SPC for hundreds less and save over a pound in weight with proven technology from an established company that actually supplies fighting militaries and still retains the barrel change capability of the ACR. Or they can still spend hundreds less and get an XCR, again, much more tested, weighs less, quick change barrel, caliber conversions already on the market, tons of stock options...

Then they go and shoot themselves in the foot with a recall and people's skepticism about the price and quality of the rifle seems justified, because, well, it is.

Comparatively, the SCAR is a more proven design from a more reputable company. You can roll with the SCAR-H (17S) and get a 7.62mm carbine with a published weight of only 8 pounds--several ounces less than any version of the ACR--and has a lower MSRP.

The math does itself. The ACR really has very little going for it comparatively.

Full Metal Jacket
November 10, 2010, 07:48 PM
I guess most people here are basing their opinions on their experience with these guns, but I wonder if it is real life or Call of Duty?

well, the prices of these two guns keeps them out of most folks hands. so i assume most people are choosing one or the other based on what they've read, which is ok. i haven't fired (and don't own) either one myself :)

Full Metal Jacket
November 10, 2010, 07:51 PM
The math does itself. The ACR really has very little going for it comparatively.

i haven't made up my mind. i do like FN's track record with the scar of course, but i 'm not crazy about the reciprocating forward bolt handle that can smack you in the thumb. at least bushmaster had enough sense to make theirs non-reciprocating.

is it a deal breaker? probably not. :)

GunTech
November 10, 2010, 08:07 PM
Shot the SCAR but only handled the ACR. I like the feel of the latter, and was sad to see the initial teething problems and recall. The SCAR has more time in the field but I haven't completely given up on the ACR. Too bad it was Bushmaster that took over production.

If they fix the ACR and drop the price, which they will probably need to after all the bad press, I'll give it a look. Otherwise neither. The SCAR and the ACR are not worth the current asking price. Neither is twice the rifle a well built AR is. And the the people I know that own them have them as much for bragging rights as anything else.

Full Metal Jacket
November 10, 2010, 08:09 PM
Neither is twice the rifle a well built AR is. And the the people I know that own them have them as much for bragging rights as anything else.

agreed.

Zerodefect
November 10, 2010, 08:11 PM
I'm waiting to see which one the aftermarket adopts.

I'd have to lean towards the mil-spec Remington ACR. But the civvy Bushmaster ACR lacks the features I want.

I voted ACR because the SCAR's foregrip is not long enough to fit me. I think the ACR has different available foregrips.

Both need speedier safety levers. I turn my safety on and off 10,000 times during a 3 day class.

I think a properly modded AR works better still. I was excited about the Magpul Masada concept, but the ACR is kinda "meh". For that kind of cash I can get a LMT .308.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 10, 2010, 09:01 PM
I've handled both but shot neither. I really like the ACR's layout for controls - specifically the longer handguard and sight position, the pistol grip, the stock and the ACR charging handle.

Unfortunately, the ACR was noticeably heavier and nose heavy compared to the SCAR.

Also, the SCAR has had extensive testing by independent sources/military under extreme conditions for six years now. It is made by FN who has an outstanding reputation in the area of military weaponry. The ACR hasn't had anywhere near that kind of scrutiny and is made by Bushmaster/Remington.

At the end of the day, I'd rather have an 8lb SCAR heavy in .308 with a 5.56 conversion kit than an 8.5lb ACR.

happygeek
November 10, 2010, 09:06 PM
Has the ACR gone through any military trials?

Prion
November 10, 2010, 09:14 PM
I really want to love the ACR. It came so close to being so good. Disappointing.

SCAR it is.

nwilliams
November 10, 2010, 10:02 PM
SCAR, I love mine! Yes it was very expensive and I could have got a very nice AR for the price I paid for my SCAR. However I already have a very nice Daniel Defense AR so my decision to buy a SCAR was based on the desire to have one in the collection as opposed to whether or not it would replace my AR or any other gun in my collection.

I would still love to own an ACR someday as well and I probably will. The problem with the ACR is that if I were going to own one the only version I would want is the "enhanced" version. While I think the ACR is fantastic concept I just can't bring myself to spend more than $1,500 on even the enhanced version. While the SCAR is expensive and probably more expensive than it needs to be, I am willing to spend over $2k on one because it is made by FN and because it has been extensively tested and accepted by the military, the ACR is currently still basically just a cool concept gun.

It was probably a stupid financial decision for me to buy a SCAR, especially considering I had to put about a third of it on my credit card. All the same I had recently sold a few guns on GB and made a bit of a profit from them and I had a good bit on account at the shop from having to return a defective gun so it seemed like the right time to buy one if ever. The point is that there was a standard version ACR sitting on the rack next to the SCAR and it was only about $100 less than the SCAR. However as much as I debated whether to take the SCAR plunge or not seeing the ACR sitting up there for almost the same price really helped sell me on the SCAR. It was like seeing a brand new BMW 135i sitting next to a brand new Chrysler Sebring on the lot for almost the same price, OK that might not be the fairest comparison but that doesn't defeat my point.

Full Metal Jacket
November 10, 2010, 10:12 PM
You can roll with the SCAR-H (17S) and get a 7.62mm carbine with a published weight of only 8 pounds--several ounces less than any version of the ACR--and has a lower MSRP.


the .308 SCAR is far more money than the ACR


I was more interested in the ACR before it was taken over by Remington and Bushmaster.

remington only supplied the ACR's "self lubricating" finish. nothing more.


I haven't seen or handled either one so I'm not commenting, but man 'o man it seems like there's nothing but hate for the Bushmaster. Apparently their products suck.

i've never heard people hating on Bushmaster until this thread lol. i've fired one before and it was exceptionally accurate. i don't think they'd be one of, if not the top AR producers if they sucked.

migkillertwo
November 10, 2010, 10:15 PM
I'm partial to the SCAR because i've only handled a SCAR and was blown away by the weight compared to my own AR

MTMilitiaman
November 11, 2010, 12:10 AM
http://trophys.dealerease.net/catalog/product.asp?pid=73391&ret_id=806356
"Your Price $2,496.78"

http://www.gunforall.com/shopcart/mcartfree/product.asp?intProdID=162606
"Base Price: $2,406.20"

That's just a quick Google Search. I am sure an FFL fee would probably apply and as always "prices are subject to change," usually up. But compared to the ACR:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=ACR+shopping&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=12576931771725526753&ei=YnjbTLeiJoSosAPFwNTqBw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCoQ8wIwAw#
"$2,119 new," that's for the basic configuration, without the folding stock that comes standard on the SCAR.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=ACR+shopping&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=372517758949688111&ei=YnjbTLeiJoSosAPFwNTqBw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ8wIwAg#
"$2,422 new," this is the enhanced model with the same features that come standard on the SCAR. Assuming the same price fluctuations and FFL fees apply, prices look about the same with comparable features.

It looks like the published weight of the ACR went down. Even weighing a pound more, I think the company backing the SCAR, its better reach and punch, and more established track record will still yield it more fans. The SCAR 17S is actually in a unique position in that it does something very few other rifles do. There are plenty of pretty modular and adaptive 5.56/6.8 mm carbines out there. The list of lightweight modular 7.62mm carbines is much smaller.

Girodin
November 11, 2010, 12:37 AM
i've never heard people hating on Bushmaster until this thread lol. i've fired one before and it was exceptionally accurate. i don't think they'd be one of, if not the top AR producers if they sucked.

I hope by top producer of ARs you are talking about numbers because if you are talking quality a Bushmaster isn't even in contention to be anywhere on the podium nor an honorable mention.

The SCAR vs the ACR seems like a total no brainer to me at this point. Remington managed to turn the ACR into a FAIL. Its really too bad it had the potential to make a huge splash but didn't, not even close.

I looked at a SCAR a while ago but ultimately passed. Maybe one day but it just didn't offer enough of a real advantage over my Noveske to justify the money right now. I must admit that the SCAR 17S looks very promising. I think it stacks up much more favorably in terms of offering real world advantages versus the competition at .308. Basically what was said above. The scar will become more attractive to me as there becomes more available to take advantage of the barrel modularity. Particularly if barrels don't cost as much as an upper (like the XCR. Oh and why do they only offer 1:9 twist barrels). Good support there would make the SCAR way more interesting IMHO.

Full Metal Jacket
November 11, 2010, 01:34 AM
I hope by top producer of ARs you are talking about numbers because if you are talking quality a Bushmaster isn't even in contention to be anywhere on the podium nor an honorable mention.

where is all this bushmaster quality issue stuff coming from lol? not saying you guys are wrong, just curious. a relative of mine just bought that one i fired, and it was great. flawless function, and very accurate.

never really researched much on bushmaster customer reviews, so i'm no expert on the subject, but i don't recall seeing many negative reviews lol :)

(their new carbon frame AR with the red dot sight i looked at the other day struck me as being a piece of crap, but that's the only one i didn't like)

twestbrook10
November 11, 2010, 02:46 AM
I'm with you. Where's all this bushmaster bashing coming from? Their rifles are very good.

nwilliams
November 11, 2010, 03:33 AM
I'm with you. Where's all this bushmaster bashing coming from? Their rifles are very good.

While Bushmaster makes a decent entry level AR, it's very difficult to compare a Bushmaster AR to the AR's built by Colt, LMT, Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM or even S&W. I know it sounds snobbish and I hate to say it but that's the truth and that's the reason why some people are willing to spend a little more money to own an AR made by one of those companies as opposed to say a Bushmaster, DPMS or Olympic made AR.

I owned a Bushmaster M4 Patrolman for several years and it worked flawlessly. However there is also a reason why I decided to sell my Bushy and buy a Daniel Defense M4XV instead. While I never had any issues with my Bushmaster it really does feel like I upgraded from an apartment to a house after I purchased my DD.

If you want a more detailed explanation as to why some people prefer certain AR makers over others they you can always look at "the chart", it's a good source of information. http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

Full Metal Jacket
November 11, 2010, 03:44 AM
^RRA makes awesome AR's too :)

the main thing daniel defense has going for it is the super light quad rail. it's build quality, although very nice, is not on par with RRA, which cost less.

DD offering a larry vickers signature model, although great advertising for them, does not impress me. LAV is a business man that leases his name to those that fatten his wallet (and subsequently his stomach :eek: )

uspJ
November 11, 2010, 04:22 AM
SCAR, based on FN quality

This.

Z-Michigan
November 11, 2010, 08:54 AM
I think the Bushmaster bashing comes from obsession with "The chart" and the fact that they've been around a while. I own one complete Bushmaster and one complete upper from them, and the quality is very good. HOWEVER, Bushmaster's quality and standards have largely been frozen in time for 10 years or more, while many newer entrants, as well as equally old Armalite, have upgraded their specifications in many ways to compare with "the chart" and get sales.

Today, Bushmaster makes a pretty good AR, but here are some cost-cutting measures that aren't so great:
-carrier key staking is inconsistent and often poor
-commercial spec buffer tubes on telestock models
-color and finish is to military standards but not as clean and consistent as many civilian competitors
-barrel steel is apparently just 4150, which while an upgrade over 4140 is not necessarily the military spec unless BM is buying it to military standards, which they aren't clearly saying.

Finally, I think many of us are a bit sad that they got gobbled up by Cerberus' "Freedom Group" which seems to follow the usual pattern of large investment companies taking over smaller established niche companies. And the absurd pricing of the ACR just plain ticked off a lot of people, me included.

In the late 90's, Bushmaster was definitely one of the best, along with Colt and Armalite. But the only other significant assemblers were Olympic and Hesse/Vulcan - enough said. It's somewhat like when the Japanese cars started coming into the US market in the 1970's - US quality didn't necessarily dive, but the standard was suddenly higher.

Oh, FWIW, RRA is perhaps the most over-hyped AR assembler out there. They sure have gotten millions of miles out of that much-hyped DEA contract.

ny32182
November 11, 2010, 08:56 AM
To clarify a point about the XCR, barrels do not cost as much as an upper... the entire "conversion kit" including a barrel, bolt, and case deflector is about $450; an upper minus barrel is about 900. XCR is still the only one of the three building to actually use the modular capability. They also offer 1:7 twist on the SBR 5.56 barrels; not sure if that twist is yet available on the longer barrels.

ny32182
November 11, 2010, 09:01 AM
As far as Bushmaster, I owned two and can honestly say I shot them more than any other ARs I've owned (that is not "a lot", but more than my others). I never had a problem to speak of and the 20" HBAR was/is the most accurate chrome lined AR I've ever personally seen. I sold them because I am at times a slave to the chart.

ACR is a different product obviously, but Bushmaster's "second tier" AR rep will affect the way it is percieved. If you changed nothing other than the text on the side from "Bushmaster" to "Colt" (for instance) many people in this thread would be singing a different tune.

Z-Michigan
November 11, 2010, 09:04 AM
If you changed nothing other than the text on the side from "Bushmaster" to "Colt" (for instance) many people in this thread would be singing a different tune.

And if the same 9lb toy said any of BCM, DD, LWRC or LMT, people would be jumping over each other to pay $3000 for it... those are good brands, of course, but people often put brand name over real quality and features.

Carter
November 11, 2010, 10:34 AM
To clarify a point about the XCR, barrels do not cost as much as an upper... the entire "conversion kit" including a barrel, bolt, and case deflector is about $450; an upper minus barrel is about 900. XCR is still the only one of the three building to actually use the modular capability. They also offer 1:7 twist on the SBR 5.56 barrels; not sure if that twist is yet available on the longer barrels.

Right now they do not. Apparently there are older barrels floating around out there in different twist rates. Being such a small company they struggle to keep up with demand and still produce new products (different conversion kits and their ever allusive .308 model). Its a good company with a good product. They are just very short handed compared to FN. Between the XCR and the SCAR I'd probably take the SCAR, but I'd take the XCR over the ACR any day.

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 11:19 AM
...it seems like there's nothing but hate for the Bushmaster. Apparently their products suck.Not in my experience (in fact one of my favorite rifles was made by them), but the ACR is a dud IMO. I voted for the SCAR, but I would prefer the RobArms XCR over either.

:)

Full Metal Jacket
November 11, 2010, 01:10 PM
Not in my experience (in fact one of my favorite rifles was made by them), but the ACR is a dud IMO. I voted for the SCAR, but I would prefer the RobArms XCR over either.

you'd prefer this over the FN SCAR? :eek:

http://www.robarm.com/resources/products/xcrlstd/prodpic13.jpg

(the 60's called-they want their buttstock back)

ny32182
November 11, 2010, 01:14 PM
I will say this about the XCR stock, it may not be 8-way adjustable, but it does lock up way more solidly than a SCAR stock.

nwilliams
November 11, 2010, 01:23 PM
the main thing daniel defense has going for it is the super light quad rail. it's build quality, although very nice, is not on par with RRA, which cost less.
RRA makes a very nice AR and I considered going with RRA when I was looking to buy a higher quality AR than the one I had. In the end I decided that was going to go with either LMT, Colt or DD and in the end DD seemed like it offered the best bang of the buck. My decision based on the M4 comparison chart and it just seemed that the DD M4XV offered as much as LMT or Colt and for less money, it also seemed that there was mostly positive reviews on DD AR's.

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 01:34 PM
...you'd prefer this over the FN SCAR?Yep, and it is cheaper to boot (though I prefer it either way). Of course I am also the guy that greatly prefers that crazy Bushmaster Bullpup to any other .223Rem/5.56NATO carbine available...not many folks agree with me about that either.

I will say this about the XCR stock, it may not be 8-way adjustable, but it does lock up way more solidly than a SCAR stock.Yep, I have one of those on my Saiga-12 and would have no qualms using it for a foot bridge (even if it was oriented such that it put pressure on the locking mechanism)...wouldn't try that with the ACR or the SCAR.

:)

ny32182
November 11, 2010, 01:40 PM
I think the XCR is the best base design in the business. I wish there were just a couple tweaks they would make. Then I wish they would licence it for production by a company with more capacity and better business sense, but unfortunately I'm sure that will never happen.

Z-Michigan
November 11, 2010, 01:49 PM
I think the XCR is the best base design in the business.

Mostly agree. The receiver and bolt/carrier design are both excellent.

Then I wish they would licence it for production by a company with more capacity and better business sense, but unfortunately I'm sure that will never happen.

The XCR is very competitive in terms of features, and is a bit less than the SCAR and a lot less than the ACR. I wish it was still $1299 or whatever RA originally said it would be sold at. Remember, it was originally supposed to be a LESS expensive rifle than their M96! Anyway, the biggest thing keeping me from buying an XCR is just not knowing for certain that the manufacturer will be in business, AND still offering parts and service for the rifle, 10 or 20 years from now. With FN there is no worry.

ny32182
November 11, 2010, 02:12 PM
I don't have any worries about RA going out of business. They've been "going out of business next week" on the internet since I started following their products almost 10 years ago now, and they are selling way more XCRs than they ever did M96s. I was introduced to RA by a buddy who had an M96, another rifle I really liked. I've owned a VEPR K and an XCR, and both have been fine rifles.... so basically, I've never met an RA product I didn't like.

If you are worried you can buy all the spare XCR parts you want right now. Granted, M96 parts are not free-flowing these days, so it is indeed a reasonable precaution in my estimation.

I don't think you can say the same about the SCAR... are any parts available at all?

Besides, how many rifles that are NOT used by many major militaries (that is, almost any rifles other than the AR and AK) have really been in production with great parts availability for the last 20+ years? Very few. Now that the SCAR has been rejected I seriously doubt it will be in production with freely available parts 20 years from now. That wouldn't keep me from buying one though.

MTMilitiaman
November 11, 2010, 02:28 PM
Problems with the XCR is that the charging handle is on the wrong side. I wish it was ambi, like the SCAR and ACR. And they need to make the 1:7 twist standard on their 5.56mm rifles. No serious fighting carbine has a 1:9.

BushyGuy
November 11, 2010, 02:34 PM
I prefer the ACR over the SCAR cuz i am a Bushmaster nut and ACR is cheaper and improved then SCAR. I dont care much for FN their prices are staggering.

MTMilitiaman
November 11, 2010, 02:38 PM
I dont care much for FN their prices are staggering.

LOL. That just doesn't make any sense...less so from a self-proclaimed Shrubmaster nut.

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 02:39 PM
No serious fighting carbine has a 1:9.Eh, it doesn't need it...the XCR is an easy goin' fighting carbine. :neener: Honestly, I don't really see the need unless you plan to use really heavy bullets (or tracer rounds), but then again that is more suited to LR target use, and I don't believe that is the best use of any of the above. Additionally the 1:9 twist affords slightly better velocity for the same cartridge.

I prefer the ACR over the SCAR cuz i am a Bushmaster nut and ACR is cheaper and improved then SCAR. I dont care much for FN their prices are staggering.Umm, unless things have changed the ACR is priced equal to or greater than the SCAR.

:)

kwelz
November 11, 2010, 03:17 PM
The velocity difference is almost incalculable and the ability to use heavier, longer bullets is very important in a military rifle, especially as we move away from lead as a bullet material.

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 03:23 PM
The velocity difference is almost incalculable and the ability to use heavier, longer bullets is very important in a military rifle, especially as we move away from lead as a bullet material.I said slightly. :D Furthermore, I don't have any military rifles (though some were formerly military rifles), so I don't need no stinkin' 1:7 twist...your choice of bullets, opinion, and use may dictate otherwise.

:)

Jaws
November 11, 2010, 04:07 PM
For me is a no brainer. The SCAR has many years of development, testing and fielding advantage. A lot more mature design.

One rifle was designed by a company that builds millions of great rifles, shotguns, pistols and machineguns for over a hundred years, while the other one was designed by a ten-fifteen years old company, with some twenty emploees, that made it's name from making great plastic accessories.:D

Now I'm gonna run.:D

MTMilitiaman
November 11, 2010, 04:47 PM
The advantages in velocity and barrel life claimed for the slower twist barrels are so incalculably insignificant compared to the advantages at all ranges in terminal effect and the potential for barrier penetration if the situation dictates, as well as the advantages in downrange energy and momentum typically associated with the streamlined, heavy for caliber projectiles due to their increased BCs and the faster twist barrels that they require.

Put it this way--in all but the most extreme cases, the faster twist bullets will be able to shoot the shorter, lighter projectiles with acceptable accuracy. Since these bullets are most often chosen for their frangible characteristics, and a higher rotational velocity will increase this effect, there is also a terminal effect advantage for these projectiles with the faster twist barrels too. It is easier to achieve under-stabilization and the resulting key holing and total degradation of usable accuracy associated with it than it is to over-stabilize a projectile. And at any rate, unless you're shooting chipmunks, the advantages in terminal effect associated with the 75/77 gr OTM/TAP rounds is probably worth any disadvantages associated with the faster twist for most uses.

jyo
November 11, 2010, 05:10 PM
The SCAR is made by FN---thats enough for me!

Carter
November 11, 2010, 06:07 PM
Problems with the XCR is that the charging handle is on the wrong side. I wish it was ambi, like the SCAR and ACR. And they need to make the 1:7 twist standard on their 5.56mm rifles. No serious fighting carbine has a 1:9.

I like where the XCR charging handle is. Very FAL like. It really doesn't even need to be used except for the very first loading procedure. The bolt release is very ambi and faster than the traditional AR style.
As far as twist rate goes I'm not that knowledgable, but I'm pretty sure it can shoot 62 grain bullets just fine. If I remember correctly thats what I see most for sale. I don't think I've ever seen 77gr bullets for sale locally and very rarely online.

kwelz
November 11, 2010, 08:44 PM
SCAR is the better of the two. ACR could have been better but once BM touched it the thing pretty much went down the toilet.

SCAR has its own set of problems though. Rail is way to short for modern shooting method, and the recoil impulse destroys even durable RDS.

HorseSoldier
November 11, 2010, 10:11 PM
Eh, it doesn't need it...the XCR is an easy goin' fighting carbine. Honestly, I don't really see the need unless you plan to use really heavy bullets (or tracer rounds), but then again that is more suited to LR target use, and I don't believe that is the best use of any of the above. Additionally the 1:9 twist affords slightly better velocity for the same cartridge.


1-9 doesn't do anything for a fighting rifle that 1-7 doesn't do, except make use of 75-77 grain round problematic. It may not matter for some users, but it was still a jackass move by Bushmaster, for a rifle coming out when it did, to not either make 1-7 standard or at least offer it as an option. For what they want for an ACR, the buyer should pretty much get the full have it your way Burger King treatment.

(And, parenthetically, Robinson Arms was supposed to be offering 1-7 twist barrel XCRs starting a year or so ago, though I don't know if they ever made it to market.)

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 10:25 PM
For what they want for an ACR, the buyer should pretty much get the full have it your way Burger King treatment.Now that is something we can agree on!

:)

Z-Michigan
November 11, 2010, 10:30 PM
and the recoil impulse destroys even durable RDS.

I haven't heard this before. Why? What's the lifetime of an Aimpoint used on a SCAR? That seems like a pretty big drawback!

Full Metal Jacket
November 11, 2010, 11:43 PM
SCAR has its own set of problems though. Rail is way to short for modern shooting method, and the recoil impulse destroys even durable RDS.

source?

what makes the recoil impulse on the SCAR so much more severe than all the other trillion .223 rifles on the market? :confused:

kwelz
November 12, 2010, 12:25 AM
Source is people who have been using them in T&E. Multiple Aimpoints being destroyed by them. It isn't the severity of the recoil it is something in the operation of the rifle. Same reason an Air Rifle will blow out a 2K scope made for High end large caliber rifles. There is just something in the way it recoils!

Full Metal Jacket
November 12, 2010, 12:56 AM
sounds like what would happen when you strap a cheap/incorrect scope on any gun....

kwelz
November 12, 2010, 08:25 AM
A Military issue Aimpoint is a cheap/incorrect scope?

taliv
November 12, 2010, 09:28 AM
azizza, I had heard about it damaging high quality scopes like acog/aimpoints too, but when i asked that question in this thread
http://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=798320&postcount=8
the response was no, it was just beating up eotechs and elcans.

i'd really like a scar heavy, but as i said previously, would not be willing to put expensive glass on it until this issue is resolved. i'm going to go back and double-check with the people who told me about it.

bartman06
November 12, 2010, 09:53 AM
I really like the ACR but I cannot afford it due to its price. I do not like their funny barrel lining either but that is it. I haven't handled a SCAR so i might be persuaded to change my mind in the future. Right now I'm a fan of the ACR.

kwelz
November 12, 2010, 09:58 AM
Good to know Taliv. I was told it has also been an issue with Aimpoints but who knows.

Personally this is my biggest beef with the SCAR. The rail issue is pretty big as well but there are already solutions coming to market that address that issue. Now if only I had the funds for one right now LOL.

krinko
November 12, 2010, 10:17 AM
"...ACR could have been better but once BM touched it the thing pretty much went down the toilet."

Prejudice, in the purest definition of the word.
Could you evaluate an ACR impartially? Sorry, but I think not.

I have fired the SCAR and it's a nice rifle. I own an ACR and it's a nice rifle too---with some design features I prefer over the FN product.
I can see these differences and appreciate them because I don't have "I hate Bushmaster!" tattood on the inside of my eyelids.
So there.
-----krinko


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL165/1109208/3202878/392729359.jpg

Maverick223
November 12, 2010, 11:18 AM
I own an ACR and it's a nice rifle too---with some design features I prefer over the FN product.Care to expound on that? I bet the OP would like to hear about those better features.

:)

taliv
November 12, 2010, 11:23 AM
i think the acr is a good design and still has a lot of opportunity. don't forget everyone wanted one when price expectations were $700 lower.

if you wait a few months, you'll probably be able to pick them up at BigLo^H^H^H^H^HCDNN for $1000 / bushel

lebowski
November 12, 2010, 11:25 AM
Neither one is worth the price.

Neither one has the depth or breadth of aftermarket support as the AR platform.

I really have no desire to own either. Between the two, I voted scar.

kwelz
November 12, 2010, 11:31 AM
Krinko it has nothing to do with hating bushmaster, but it is another reason to hate them. You are confusing Cause and effect.

The original design was a modular gun at an affordable price point that was suitable for serious work. What bushmaster gave us was a gun priced at double what it should have been, no real options, and riddled with inferior and ill suited parts. And on top of that they increased the weight to give us this inferior product.

Lets look at what is wrong with it.

1/9 twist barrel. Great if you want to hunt prairie dogs. Not so good if you want to use the gun for its intended purpose.

No Chrome lining in the barrel. This is another *** moment. They claim some magical pixie dust coating but have never backed up the claim with any real data.

Pricing is way out of line. Ok fine they claim they can't sell them for 1500. I don't believe this frankly but even so there is no excuse for it to be at the price point it is. And yes, I understand start up and manufacturing costs.

Fixed stock on the basic model. Especially when you consider the cost! There is no reason to put a longer than needed fixed stock on an ACR. Try using one with plates. It doesn't work well.

Weight. This gun should be lighter than an AR given the construction methods used. But instead it is an overweight pig.

BM has offered a number of excuse for all of the problems. None of them really hold up under scrutiny. They tried to cut the same corners they do with their ARs and it backfired on them.

I would also like to see any proof of them MP and HPI testing the barrels, etc. This should be done for the same reason it is on ARs. But I would be willing to bet they are not bothering just like they don't with their ARs.

I would love to have an ACR. I love the concept, I love the look. I just think the final product is overpriced and questionable.

LiquidTension
November 12, 2010, 11:47 AM
Having handled both (but having shot neither), I prefer the SCAR. I have nothing against Bushmaster though I've never owned any of their products. I do tend to be partial to FN, what with them being right up the road and being friends with several of their employees :) I do want to get my hands on a 17S...

Z-Michigan
November 12, 2010, 12:20 PM
I think Azizza nails it in post 74. I've handled and shot the ACR, and while it was very nice, I really didn't see any benefit over a quality AR-15, and very little benefit over a Ruger Mini-14. So on that basis, not to mention looking at the way it is manufactured, the materials used and the machining required, it should cost closer to $1000 if the manufacturer intends to produce a large number over a long period of time (rather than flash in the pan then cancel, or massive overpricing due to self-reinforcing low sales). I am 100% convinced that in comparable production runs the ACR would cost less to make than a similar quality AR-15.

Bushmaster has some history of dragging their feet on what buyers really want, then finally offering it two years late and overpriced, getting few sales and complaining that the buyers were lying about their interests. Best case in point was government profile 20" barrels with 1:7 twist, which they did finally, briefly offer (I have one) sometime after nearly all the potential buyers had bought comparable barrels elsewhere.

The more I look at newer options, the more I see why the AR/M16/M4 and the AKM are still in front line service all around the world, and why most militaries adopting newer designs come to regret it.

HKGuns
November 12, 2010, 01:44 PM
The ACR is better in COD MW2. Probably the only use anyone here has had in large measure with either, myself included. They're both, for the most part, over priced, over hyped, AR-15 wannabe's.

Full Metal Jacket
November 12, 2010, 01:47 PM
:eek:

GunTech
November 12, 2010, 02:16 PM
Let's assume that Bushmaster got serious about the ACR and reintroduced it at a sell price of say $1500. Would that effect your interest?

I've liked the concept from day one, but I can't see paying $2500 for the ACR. The fact that it employs polymer construction should mean that it's comparable or cheaper to produce than the AR series (not factoring amortizing the cost of tooling) so I am wondering if Bushmaster is just trying to cash in pent up demand for something new and tacticool. Their teething problems and underwhelming introduction seems to indicate that market just isn't that interested in paying the prices being asked, and in the case of stamped or molded products, high production volumes is what makes them cost effective.

Without government contracts (which Remington was clearly interested in with their LE/Military version) the ACR looks to be a losing proposition. Bushmaster has never done well in the high end market. The only way I can see them saving this rifle is to dramatically cut the cost (the way SIG cut the price on the SIG556).

FN, at least, has the advantage of military adoption (albeit limited) and a much larger manufacturing base. Also, their reliance on machining rather than molding means that small runs don't require the large initial manufacturing costs. A small design correction can be fixed with a bit of programming, rather than having to create whole new molds at substantial cost.

Finally, either rifle, and competitors like the XCR, FN200, etc have to contend with the fact that they are proprietary platforms and there is no market for aftermarket parts. Although there is at least the ability to use some common items like grips and such.

No one wants to buy a very expensive rifle and then find it discontinued a short time later and find there is no source of parts no ability to get it repaired. Think about what's going to happen to those people who bought M96 rifles in a few years when something breaks. In the case of AR and AK rifles, you'll probably be able to get parts for at least the next 50 years.

Full Metal Jacket
November 12, 2010, 02:40 PM
nothing wrong with the ACR that i can tell. the only deal breaker about it is the price, but that's true of the SCAR as well.

kwelz
November 12, 2010, 03:08 PM
Guntech, a $1500 price tag would make it more interesting as a novelty however they would have to address the other issues before I considered purchasing one for anything except a safe queen.

I did play with a SCAR again on lunch. I decided that with a rail extension and some SBR paperwork it will be a nice gun to have. So now I just have to figure out how to pay for it.

Full Metal Jacket
November 12, 2010, 05:27 PM
Guntech, a $1500 price tag would make it more interesting as a novelty however they would have to address the other issues before I considered purchasing one for anything except a safe queen.

what other issues? :eek:

kwelz
November 12, 2010, 05:41 PM
what other issues?

See Post 74. Well that and the whole going Full auto thing.

Full Metal Jacket
November 12, 2010, 05:43 PM
See Post 74. Well that and the whole going Full auto thing.

that issue's been resolved with the recall.

my local already got all his ACR's back from bushmaster (it only took them 2 weeks).

others will get their soon too. :)

kwelz
November 12, 2010, 05:49 PM
I hope you are right. Once those are fixed and the price is brought down to a reasonable level I will really consider one.

Full Metal Jacket
November 12, 2010, 07:17 PM
I hope you are right. Once those are fixed and the price is brought down to a reasonable level I will really consider one.

agreed.

that is a pretty impressive turnaround though--2 weeks for the recall fix.

i remember ruger kept many people's SR9's for two like months for that recall (granted there were more SR9's on the market than there are now ACR's, that's still too long to keep people's guns lol)

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