ATF on Shotguns, Pistol-Grip Shotguns, and Short-Barrel Shotguns


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Bubbles
November 11, 2010, 12:23 AM
Summary of the two letters: a pistol-grip shotgun that never had a shoulder stock is regulated simply as a firearm, not as a shotgun. FFL's may not transfer them to buyers who are 18-20 year olds.

So, what if one were to take a pistol grip shotgun that never had a shoulder stock installed, and chop the barrel down to 17 inches, but maintain an overall length greater than 26 inches (not easily concealable)? Is it a DD, and AOW, an SBS, or a Title I firearm?

ATF answer: Title I firearm

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

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Echo9
November 11, 2010, 11:08 AM
Definitely illegal. It's still considered a shotgun. On the 4473, I believe the weapon needs to be described as both "pistol grip firearm" and "'shotgun' pistol grip firearm."

Basically, it fits the definition of a shotgun but is governed by the laws regarding handguns.

Rail Driver
November 11, 2010, 11:16 AM
Definitely illegal. It's still considered a shotgun. On the 4473, I believe the weapon needs to be described as both "pistol grip firearm" and "'shotgun' pistol grip firearm."

Basically, it fits the definition of a shotgun but is governed by the laws regarding handguns.

Did you read the ATF letters linked to?

I had this same discussion (though I no longer have copies of my letters as they went with the shotgun when I sold it) with the ATF, and I can tell you that the OP is correct.

PGO shotgun, with barrel under 18", but OAL > 26" *IS* legal. It becomes AOW if you add a buttstock or the OAL is less than 26". With a "birds head" style grip you can sometimes go shorter than 17" with the barrel depending on the receiver used (AS LONG AS IT WAS MANUFACTURED AS A PGO).

zoom6zoom
November 11, 2010, 12:20 PM
Despite the ATF letters, I wouldn't want to be trying to explain this one to Deputy Fyfe on the side of the road.

Bubbles
November 11, 2010, 12:35 PM
Definitely illegal. It's still considered a shotgun. On the 4473, I believe the weapon needs to be described as both "pistol grip firearm" and "'shotgun' pistol grip firearm."
There are only three choices on the 4473 - long gun, handgun, and other.

CoRoMo
November 11, 2010, 01:20 PM
The Mossberg 500 Cruiser comes in three PGO versions with a 18.5" barrel. The three different models (50440 (http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50440.jpg), 50450 (http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50450.jpg), 50455 (http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50455.jpg)) vary in overall length; 28.75", 28", 29.5" respectively due to different chamberings (12ga, 20ga, 410ga).

So in those cases, you could cut anywhere from 2" to 3.5" off the barrel and still meet the 26" overall requirement. In one instance, you'd have cut a 18.5" barrel down to 15" and still hold a 26" gun.

Rail Driver
November 11, 2010, 01:47 PM
One VERY important thing to point out here, though... This is Federal law we're talking. Your State's law may be more restrictive, and would absolutely apply.

Owen Sparks
November 11, 2010, 02:13 PM
The reason for some of these odd regulations is that handguns were originally included in the NFA. Restrictions on removable stocks or short barrels on long guns are designed to keep you from altering a long gun to make it into a more concealable "handgun" like the double barrel 12ga pistol used in the St. Valentines Day Massacre. When handguns were removed from the bill due to public pressure, all the restrictions on making long guns concealable were not, even though they no longer made sense because you can still buy a concealable handgun that will usually outpreform a choped, stockless long gun.

Blackhawk30
November 12, 2010, 08:55 AM
Could someone post the text that is linked to?All I get is a white page.Thanks.

nalioth
November 12, 2010, 09:13 AM
Could someone post the text that is linked to?All I get is a white page.Thanks. PDF documents are still not foolproof when viewed by something not designed for the purpose (such as viewing it in a browser).

For best results, right click the link and "Save as", and read it in an actual PDF viewer on your local machine.

sturmgewehr
November 16, 2010, 11:22 AM
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/atf-position-on-pistol-grip-shotguns-creates-new-danger

It would seem that Nov. 2009 ruling by the BATF states that a shotgun with a pistol grip is not technically a shotgun under the GCA.

So what is it?

So far I've heard no issues with people being harassed by the ATF and various manufacturers still sell pistol gripped shotguns. But the ATF has cracked down on firearms sold legally and confiscated them or forced registration in the past. Think about the USAS 12ga, Strikers, etc.

I don't get how we allow an agency reinterpret the laws as they see fit without any oversight. It's useless getting a letter from the ATF to verify your firearm is legal because the next day they can change their mind and make you a felon.

dogtown tom
November 16, 2010, 11:53 AM
sturmgewehr http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...tes-new-danger

It would seem that Nov. 2009 ruling by the BATF states that a shotgun with a pistol grip is not technically a shotgun under the GCA.
The article is misleading if not factually incorrect.
ATF didn't issue a "ruling" in November 2009......that's the date on the FFL Newsletter that had an article regarding "pistol grip only" shotguns.

The legal definition of a shotgun in the Gun Control Act of 1968 says:
921 (5) Definitions:
"The term "shotgun" means a
weapon designed or redesigned, made
or remade, and intended to be fired
from the shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use
the energy of an explosive to fire
through a smooth bore either a number
of ball shot or a single projectile for
each single pull of the trigger."
(you can't blame ATF on this.......blame our congress in 1968)


ATF issued a revised Form 4473 in August 2008, effective beginning in November 2008, that created another category "type" on the 4473. Previously there were three choices for an FFL to select: Handgun, Long Gun or Both. The 4473 revised in August '08 eliminated "Both" and replaced it with "Other Firearm". Each 4473 has instructions on what constitutes an "Other Firearm" (basically firearms that are neither handguns or long guns- such as PGO shotguns, frames, receivers, lowers)

...I don't get how we allow an agency reinterpret the laws as they see fit without any oversight. It's useless getting a letter from the ATF to verify your firearm is legal because the next day they can change their mind and make you a felon.
We allow an agency to interpret Federal law because our elected representatives passed legislation in 1934. ALL Federal agencies interpret laws and always have- that's the way government works. It is way too easy to blame ATF when the real fault lies with the National Firearms Act of 1934. ATF is REQUIRED to enforce that legislation. We can whine about the evil ATF all we want, but it's an exercise in futility unless NFA '34 and GCA '68 are overturned.

As far as "oversight".........our system of government provides the judicial system to provide such oversight. If a law or it's enforcement by ATF is unconstitutional or if you disagree with an ATF ruling or determination letter you have the right to invoke the aid of the courts. (re Thompson Center vs ATF)

Sam1911
November 16, 2010, 11:57 AM
Threads merged

dogsoldier0513
November 16, 2010, 12:14 PM
At a Nashville gun show in December of 2009, a dealer had, for sale, an older 'Coonan Snake Charmer' in .410. The original abbreviated thumbhole stock had been cut down to only a crude pistol grip configuaration, bringing the weapon drastically UNDER the over all legal limit. The BATFE agents at the show saw 'nothing wrong' with it. Go figure.....

tkopp
November 17, 2010, 03:43 AM
There's still that restriction on firearms over .50cal not otherwise designated for sporting purpose, no?

Sam1911
November 17, 2010, 09:43 AM
There's still that restriction on firearms over .50cal not otherwise designated for sporting purpose, no?

You're thinking of "Large Bore Destructive Devices." Yes, that is still part of the NFA, Title II. It hasn't been frequently applied to shotguns, with the exception of a few like the "Street Sweeper" which were specifically named as DD's.

(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;

CleverNickname
November 18, 2010, 12:19 PM
The law seems to say that only shotguns can have >.5" bores and not be DD's if they're found to be sporting, but I know some large bore rifles (those chambered in the Nitro Express series are a good example) have DD exemptions too.

Sam1911
November 18, 2010, 12:41 PM
but I know some large bore rifles (those chambered in the Nitro Express series are a good example) have DD exemptions too.

Yes, it is odd how that's worded -vs.- the reality of the way the exemptions have been made.

From what I've read, .600 NE is exempt (though I've read somewhere that .700 NE, being vanishingly rare anyway, never was) along with various old elephant gun cartridges in the .577 class, etc.

Interestingly, JD Jones has received an exemption for his .570" wildcat 14.5mm JDJ: http://www.sskindustries.com/14_5.htm.

TNT in Round Rock
November 20, 2010, 07:20 PM
I'm still confused .. so what about putting a modified stock, either just a pistol grip or folding stock on an existing gun, like a Moss 500 or Rem 870 ?

nalioth
November 20, 2010, 07:30 PM
I'm still confused .. so what about putting a modified stock, either just a pistol grip or folding stock on an existing gun, like a Moss 500 or Rem 870 ? This thread has nothing to do with your question.

So long as you're in a free state, have fun playing Barbie with your gun furniture.

TNT in Round Rock
November 20, 2010, 08:06 PM
wow .. thanx for the help :cool:

Sam1911
November 20, 2010, 08:16 PM
I'm still confused .. so what about putting a modified stock, either just a pistol grip or folding stock on an existing gun, like a Moss 500 or Rem 870 ?

Nalioth has it right. This doesn't change anything about modifying an existing (pump) shotgun.*** If you buy a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 it will either come to you as a "shotgun" on the form 4473 (if it has a full or folding butt-stock) or an "other firearm" if it comes as a pistol-grip-only. Those available for sale through your local dealer all have at least 18" barrels. You could swap back and forth between stocks to your heart's content as no combination you could come up will be less than the 26" overall length required to stay with Title I of the NFA.

This thread only covers the legality of shortening the barrel of a shotgun (technically an "other firearm" on the 4473) that came from the factory with a pistol-only-grip instead of a real buttstock and which has never had a buttstock installed at any point. It appears that it is legal to cut down the barrel of such a weapon as short as you want so long as the total length of the gun remains over 26". This is because the original weapon was never technically a "shotgun" under the definition in the NFA, so making it's barrel less than 18" does not cross into Title II territory.

*** ONE CAVEAT: I don't think the same thing could be said universally about double-barreled shotguns. If you have a full-stocked double with 18" barrels, I'd imagine that cutting down or changing the stock to a pistol- or birds-head grip could very easily bring that weapon's total length below 26" which would make it an NFA Title II regulated item. For example, a Stoeger 20" barreled coach gun is 36-1/2" overall. You can cut two inches off those barrels and still be legal. That's 34-1/2" OAL. If you were to cut down the buttstock to the most minimal grip possible, it is not hard to picture losing another 8-1/2"+ in the process, and violating that 26" overall rule.

leadcounsel
November 20, 2010, 09:03 PM
So what is it?

It's an intentionally arbitrary, confusing, myriad of perplexing laws created to harrass and confuse gun owners, so that "probable cause" warrants can be issued to search and seize and arrest...

You may ultimately be found to be technically right, but at what cost? Or during the search something else illegal may turn up, due to the aforementioned myriad of technical and confusing arbitrary rules...

Don't go chopping nothin' up is my advice...

Carl N. Brown
November 20, 2010, 09:17 PM
Wasn't this a letter to a manufacturer Historic Arms LLC ln modifying a factory original PGO shotgun to 26+a little inches regardless of barrel length?

....under the NFA, barrel length is relevant only in regard to rifles and shotguns. Firearms that come equipped with a pistol grip in place of a buttstock are not "shotguns" as defined by the NFA. Therefore, in determining whether a firearm is "capable of being concealed on the person," barrel length is considered only to the extent that it constitutes a portion of the overall-length measurement of a firearm.... -- ATF Firearms Technology Branch letter in response to Len Savage, Historic Arms LLC, 27 May 2910 request for clarification

The ATF FTB response to the letter of 2 Aug 2010 with sample shotgun that, if I read correctly, is not an NFA AOW nor an NFA SBS (Title II) but is a GCA "other firearm" not concealable, not a shotgun, but still a GCA (Title I) firearm.

I accept that ATF will accept an "other" made as a PGO only shotgun nonconcealable over 26" overall but under 18" barrel transferred on 4473 as "other" than a long gun or handgun. How would this affect an end owner modifying a PGO only shotgun to under 18" barrel but keeping overall over 26"?

Sam1911
November 20, 2010, 09:51 PM
I accept that ATF will accept an "other" made as a PGO only shotgun nonconcealable over 26" overall but under 18" barrel transferred on 4473 as "other" than a long gun or handgun. How would this affect an end owner modifying a PGO only shotgun to under 18" barrel but keeping overall over 26"?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but why would it matter WHO did the modification?

nalioth
November 20, 2010, 09:54 PM
How would this affect an end owner modifying a PGO only shotgun to under 18" barrel but keeping overall over 26"?This thread is as attempt to answer that very question, and does.

If your shotgun arrived from the factory with a pistol grip, so long as you maintain the 26" OAL, you can get to choppin' . . .

Carl N. Brown
December 2, 2010, 12:39 PM
Shotgun with Pistol Grip

If it was sold on the 4473 as a long gun, you must observe 26" overall minimum and 18" barrel overall minimum.

factory original Pistol Grip Only Shotgun never had a buttstock

If it was sold as on the 4473 as a "other firearm", you must observe the 26" overall minimum and may disegard the 18" barrel minumum (if you install a buttstock at sometime; then you would have to file a Form 1 for a SBS).

Carl N. Brown
December 2, 2010, 01:16 PM
Heller '08 and McDonald '10 recognized self-defense as a justification for RKBA; it is high time that the gun control act be revised to recognize firearms for all lawful purposes, not just "sporting purposes".

My recap on this (and I welcome correction if I got anything wrong) is, best I can figure:

o The 4473 used to have three choices: Handgun, Long Gun or Both.
o August 2008 the 4473 was revised by ATF to have three choices: Handgun, Long Gun or Other.
o ATF instructions for 4473 in a newsletter for FFLs defined "other" as firearms that are neither handguns nor long guns (PGO shotguns, frames, receivers, lowers)

This new "other" category are Title I Gun Control Act "firearms" that are not Title II National Firearms Act "firearms".

Len Savage, Historic Arms LLC, 27 May 2010, sent a request for clarification to ATF Firearms Technology Branch. The answer they gave him was an "Other" PGO shotgun must meet the 26" overall length, but since it does not meet the definition of shotgun (long gun designed to be fired from the shoulder) an "Other" PGO shotgun with barrel under 18" is neither a SBS nor an AOW: as long as overall length is not concealable (under 26") it is still an "Other" PGO shotgun.

Shotgun with Pistol Grip: If it was sold on the 4473 as a long gun, you must observe 26" overall minimum and 18" barrel overall minimum.

factory original Pistol Grip Only Shotgun never had a butt: if it was sold on the 4473 as an "Other", you must observe the 26" overall minimum and may disregard the 18" barrel minumum, according to the ATF FTB letter in response to the Historic Arms LLC request.

My impression is that if you install a buttstock at sometime and the PGO shotgun barrel is under 18", then you would have to file a Form 1 for a SBS.

My further impression is that I ain't takin' no chances based on confusing instruction in a ATF newsletter and one ATF FTB letter on a confused subject.

Bubbles
December 2, 2010, 01:32 PM
My further impression is that I ain't takin' no chances based on confusing instruction in a ATF newsletter and one ATF FTB letter on a confused subject.
Which is very smart of you.
http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/147-new-class-of-firearm-you-should-know-about/
Posts are in reverse chronological order - start reading from the bottom.

Carl N. Brown
December 4, 2010, 03:41 PM
I will predict ATF may eventually rule that shotguns sold with pistol grip only and barrel length 18 inches or more are long guns (Title I conventional GCA shotguns) if:
_ they were designed for, and will accept, a factory shoulder stock, and
_ they were not concealable weapons (not under 26 inch NFA and neither AOW nor SBS).

Now whether PGO (from the factory) will retain the handgun age limit is another thing.

Zero Knives
January 24, 2011, 04:24 PM
Just came across this and find this very intriguing. First off, I'm having difficulty distilling search terms down to check any progress. Is the outline above still the latest unofficial accepted opinion on the matter?

I'm assuming the original state of the firearm from production is what matters. If the firearm was purchased new and the salesperson inadvertently (and somewhat understandably) marks the a PGO as "long gun" on the 4473, I'm assuming the gun is still and always will be classified as "other" regardless of what the form says.

Lastly, how long does it take to get a response from the ATF and did Remington ever make a PGO 870? :D

Sam1911
January 24, 2011, 04:41 PM
I'm assuming the gun is still and always will be classified as "other" regardless of what the form says.

Well, that's the rub, isn't it? The status of what a gun was originally configured to be exists (one would assume) in the records of the manufacturer. The form 4473 is supposed to record what kind of gun it was when sold. But if at any point along the way, someone snuck into a closet and installed a buttstock, giggled manically, and then reinstalled the original PGO, the ATF would say it is now a "shotgun" and so cannot be anything but a shotgun or a "firearm made from a shotgun."

Now the record of that event exists in no place other than the memory of our laughing closet butt-stocking maniac. (I think I just invented a new psychosis.)

What does that mean? I'm not sure, but I think I'd rather not have any data points in the gun's history that indicate it wasn't an "Other."

Zero Knives
January 24, 2011, 04:54 PM
Sounds like a new fetish rather than a psychosis. :D

That is the rub, huh. What matters more, it's original disposition or what some flimsy form states as filled out by an absent-minded sales clerk?

For that matter, if I purchase a used firearm from the pawn shop with a PGO on it, that form could say "other" at the time of purchase; who knows what the original one said.

I think I know the answer. But it's based on logic, so I'm almost sure it's wrong.

Sam1911
January 24, 2011, 07:58 PM
if I purchase a used firearm from the pawn shop with a PGO on it, that form could say "other" at the time of purchase; who knows what the original one said

And, again, a very good question. If a pawn shop takes a PGO shotgun in pawn and then sells it, what should they process the sale as? All they know for certain is that is it an "other" right now. But the ATF says they care deeply what it was at every moment of its history. Even if the shop contacted the manufacturer and asked them to verify what it originally shipped as, there would be no plausible way to confirm that no owner had added a stock, and indeed, that it hadn't been configured with a shoulder stock for 20 years prior to being re-configured as a PGO-stick and sold to the pawn broker.

Once again, when taken even half way to its logical extremes, a gun law falls on its face. Surprise, surprise. ;)

Zero Knives
January 25, 2011, 12:41 AM
To hell with this. Tax stamp it is... ;)

natman
January 25, 2011, 04:22 AM
It's an fascinating intellectual exercise into the rabbit hole of NFA regulations. While the letters make the FEDERAL position clear, it seems wide open to problems at the state level.

As a practical matter, it seems like an awful lot of trouble in order to make a barrel one inch shorter.

Bubbles
January 25, 2011, 09:11 AM
As a practical matter, it seems like an awful lot of trouble in order to make a barrel one inch shorter.
Which is why no manufacturer - even those who have letters from the ATF - are producing one.

nalioth
January 25, 2011, 09:17 AM
While the letters make the FEDERAL position clear, it seems wide open to problems at the state level.Guess that'd depend on your state.

Some of won't have any problems if we go down this road.

As a practical matter, it seems like an awful lot of trouble in order to make a barrel one inch shorter.Ahh, but let's put our thinkin' cap on . .

So long as you start with a PGO shotty, and keep it in the 26" limit, the sky's the limit:
http://www.novarata.net/images/s/sawed-off-shotty.png
Cutting a standard stock so that you have a complete pistol grip gives you more length in the back, allowing you to cut off that length from the barrel to maintain the 26" OAL.

natman
January 25, 2011, 09:51 AM
Guess that'd depend on your state.

Some of won't have any problems if we go down this road.

Ahh, but let's put our thinkin' cap on . .

So long as you start with a PGO shotty, and keep it in the 26" limit, the sky's the limit:

Cutting a standard stock so that you have a complete pistol grip gives you more length in the back, allowing you to cut off that length from the barrel to maintain the 26" OAL.

OK, but it's still 26" long. Only now you've added the length to the grip, where it's useless and taken it away from the barrel, where it would do some good.:confused:

nalioth
January 25, 2011, 10:05 AM
OK, but it's still 26" long. Only now you've added the length to the grip, where it's useless and taken it away from the barrel, where it would do some goodJust demonstrating some "it's legal" mathematics is all.

If you read the whole thread, there are other mathematical formulas discussed.

smince
January 25, 2011, 01:42 PM
Only now you've added the length to the grip, where it's useless and taken it away from the barrel, where it would do some good.Have you ever tried to move in a confined space with a long barrel? Short barrel even with a full stock is easier to manage.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 28, 2011, 11:51 PM
So could I, being 18, buy a Mossberg 500 PGO shotgun that is new, add a birds head grip to it, than reduce the barrel length to a minimun 26" OAL and stay legal?

Sam1911
January 29, 2011, 11:44 AM
Hmmm... I think the problem is that it is legal for someone under 21 to buy a rifle or shotgun. I think the "no handguns under 21" prohibition extends to "Other" firearms as well. So buying the PGO shotgun would not be legal until you're 21.

I'll have to look into that.

nalioth
January 29, 2011, 11:53 AM
Hmmm... I think the problem is that it is legal for someone under 21 to buy a rifle or shotgun. I think the "no handguns under 21" prohibition extends to "Other" firearms as well. So buying the PGO shotgun would not be legal until you're 21.

I'll have to look into that.If FIVETWOSEVEN buys a PGO shotty from a private citizen, he's g2g (depending on his state/local laws, of course)

Sam1911
January 29, 2011, 11:55 AM
Ah, of course. I'm not to the bottom of the first cup 'o joe yet this morning! :)

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 29, 2011, 06:52 PM
What about shortening the barrel? Is that legal?

Sam1911
January 29, 2011, 06:55 PM
If you own a PGO, the ATF current interpretation is that you can take the barrel down until you hit the 26" overall limit. It has to have ALWAYS been a PGO, though. Once its had a shoulder stock attached it is, and always will be, a shotgun (not an "other") and would need to be registered as an SBS to take the barrel below 18".

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 29, 2011, 07:37 PM
Alright, next time I swing by the gunshop I'll ask about the PGO Mossberg 500 if it would be legal for me to buy.

Sam1911
January 29, 2011, 09:57 PM
Make sure your dealer is viewing this clearly. Some dealers do not realize that PGO shotguns should be sold as "other" firearms, not shotguns. If he sells it as a shotgun, you lose at least some aspect of "proof" that you've not created an unregistered SBR. In actuality, that 4473 form doesn't prove much -- but someone reviewing the matter later might use the "shotgun" listing on the form as an indication that you haven't followed the rules.

This is RIGHT on the line, so to speak, and you might want to have a printout of the ATF letter with that gun at all times if you do make one of these "shorty Other" scatter-guns. Most LEOs are very familiar with the idea of a "sawed-off" shotgun, and know they should arrest anyone found with one. VERY few are going to take your word for it that it's all o.k. because this is not really a shotgun!

nalioth
January 30, 2011, 02:25 AM
Alright, next time I swing by the gunshop I'll ask about the PGO Mossberg 500 if it would be legal for me to buyAs has been said, it is illegal for anyone under 21 to buy a PGO shotty (or stripped receiver) from an FFL holder. Even if the dealer mistakenly sells it to you, its still an illegal transaction.

Owen Sparks
January 30, 2011, 02:52 AM
Yet you have to register for the draft at 18 because the government might need your services in the Army where you will be issued a handgun. Does anyone else see a contradiction here?

Carl N. Brown
January 30, 2011, 09:45 AM
Just to add to the confusion, you can make a Title I shotgun from a Title I PGO "other firearm" by installing a buttstock if the barrel is 18" or more; but when you re-install the pistol grip, it is still a Title I shotgun with a pistol grip and it does not revert to a Title I PGO "other firearms".

PGO "other firearm" is a manufacturer designation, sold as on a 4473. A user taking a shotgun and replacing the buttstock with a pistol grip is creating a pistol grip shotgun, not a Pistol Grip Only "other firearm".

Colonel
January 30, 2011, 11:46 AM
Interesting discussion here:

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/what-do-sporting-purposes-have-to-do-with-second-amendment

As the writer points out, on one hand ATF says "non-sporting" guns are a no-no ... while U.S. v. Miller says that any gun not suited to militia use isn't protected by the 2A.

So ... the gist of it, as I see it, is that ATF says that militia-type guns can be banned ... while SCOTUS in Miller says that non-militia guns can be banned.

In other words, everything on THIS side of the line can be banned ... and everything on THAT side of the line can be banned, too!

"Heads, we win, tails, you lose"!

xcgates
January 30, 2011, 11:53 AM
Owen, stop trying to make sense of these things, you will induce a stroke!

While I would love to be able to do this, my frequent moving and lack of deep pockets effectively limit me from trying this, as I have absolutely no desire to be a test case. To whomever tries this, I would not suggest bragging in public, and allow yourself a margin of error for measuring. And assume that any government authority that will be measuring it will go for the shortest distance.

Something like, measuring from the bottom of the muzzle to the back of the grip diagonally, not like you would measure as if you had giant calipers, measuring from the flat of the muzzle to the back of the grip, parallel to the barrel. Does that make sense?

Kind of like AKTI has for knives: link (http://www.akti.org/resources/akti-protocol-for-measuring-knife-blade-length)

BBroadside
January 30, 2011, 12:25 PM
As the writer points out, on one hand ATF says "non-sporting" guns are a no-no ... while U.S. v. Miller says that any gun not suited to militia use isn't protected by the 2A. - Colonel

I'm not sure the ATF's injunctions against non-sporting weapons have been tested in court. While we can't expect different branches of government to agree, we can expect the judicial branch to "win in a fight" with the executive. (Maybe not under Presidents named Jackson!)

I expect the ATF's anti-non-sporting regs to go down if they are seriously tested under this combination of Justices. Any of them die and get replaced by Obama appointees, probably not. So yet again we are left with the most powerful branch being the indirectly-elected branch, with people voting more about judicial matters than anything else.

PapaG
January 30, 2011, 12:41 PM
Has there been a fundamental change in federal restrictions? When we had our shop, following the rules and regs, a smoothbore (shotgun) had to have a minimum of an 18" barrel, regardless of overall length. Eighteen inch barrel and minimum overall of 26". I seriously doubt that a non-nfa firearm can have a shorter than 18" barrel without some kind of repercussion.

Inquiring minds want to know.

nalioth
January 30, 2011, 01:22 PM
Has there been a fundamental change in federal restrictions? When we had our shop, following the rules and regs, a smoothbore (shotgun) had to have a minimum of an 18" barrel, regardless of overall length. Eighteen inch barrel and minimum overall of 26". I seriously doubt that a non-nfa firearm can have a shorter than 18" barrel without some kind of repercussion.

Inquiring minds want to know. Inquiring minds should read this thread. It has been explained how a shotgun can legally have a > 18" barrel.

The OP has PDFs which explain it, as well.

xcgates
January 30, 2011, 01:25 PM
Inquiring Minds also appears to be in Illinois, a state that has restrictions above and beyond federal restrictions, which would affect how a shop would operate.

Sam1911
January 30, 2011, 02:15 PM
Has there been a fundamental change in federal restrictions? ... Inquiring minds want to know.

I hate to be "that guy", but like Nailoth said, just read this very thread! It's all right there! You could start with this: http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

Bartholomew Roberts
December 7, 2013, 03:29 PM
I just came across this ATF report and wanted to share it.

As some of you may know, ATF proposed the above criteria. During the comment period, they received some 21,000 comments on the proposed criteria. Before any such criteria could be enacted, the House managed to slip a provision into an appropriations bill which forbid ATF from using any funds to forbid the import of a shotgun for sporting purposes if ATF hadn't already prohibited such import.

On July 2012, ATF issued this report addressing the comments and adopting the criteria going forward: http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/industry/july-2012-importability-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

The high points are:
1. 3-gun is not a sport, and even if it were, we will compare it to hunting rather than other sanctioned firearms sports or else our bias might be obvious.

2. Pistol grips help disabled people so they are OK. An integrated rail helps attach pistol grips, so they are also OK. Everything else on the list is forbidden and we won't even dignify valid criticisms of those choices with a response.

3. We're not banning anything. We are just restricting importation. Not a word said about how sporting purposes criteria also affects domestic shotguns.

I thought this response would let people know how their comments were received as well as emphasize the importance in commenting on proposed regulation 41P (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=726827) - the comment period for which ends December 9th.

Arizona_Mike
December 8, 2013, 08:33 PM
As has been discussed previously in the NFA subforum, this ruling, while it makes the most sense under the flawed statutes, logically puts all PGOs of any length barrel
outside of the "ordinary shotgun" exemption to the .50 cal limit.

But there are a lot of such PGOs out there and the ATF is never going to "go there".

Mike

Rushthezeppelin
December 8, 2013, 11:06 PM
Yes, it is odd how that's worded -vs.- the reality of the way the exemptions have been made.

From what I've read, .600 NE is exempt (though I've read somewhere that .700 NE, being vanishingly rare anyway, never was) along with various old elephant gun cartridges in the .577 class, etc.

Interestingly, JD Jones has received an exemption for his .570" wildcat 14.5mm JDJ: http://www.sskindustries.com/14_5.htm.
You are also forgetting about the .950 JDJ which nearly got classified a DD. Surprised more of yall haven't come across the video of on youtube, its in the suggested vids list for almost every hickok45 vid and most other gun related vids. That thing looks scary though with its nearly ton and a half of recoil energy.

Sam1911
December 8, 2013, 11:11 PM
Rush? I might have been forgetting it back in 2010 when I posted that. But I might not have even heard of it back then!

Rushthezeppelin
December 9, 2013, 12:46 AM
Bahhh, my bad. Totally didn't look at post date.

Sam1911
December 9, 2013, 12:48 AM
:) No worries! Heck, I tried to check but I'm not sure they'd invented it back then! :D

I do sure know I need one, though! I've got some problem that I can't solve without one. I just don't know exactly what that problem is yet. But when I find out, LOOK OUT!

Rushthezeppelin
December 9, 2013, 12:55 AM
Ya I was looking back to and can't confirm a date but the earliest mention I'm finding was last year so it may well have not been invented at the time, I just don't think about looking the date when a thread is only 3 pages long.

And I think I can help you come up with a few problems that need to be solved with that mortar launcher, namely being the funnest way to dislocate your shoulder lol. GL getting one being that only 3 rifles have ever been made chambered for that round.

Nickel Plated
December 9, 2013, 08:00 PM
The whole sawed-off "other" shotgun is Shockwave Tech's whole marketing strategy for their Raptor grips. Essentially installin one of those on a Mossberg gives you more length in the back over the standard Mossberg grip allowing you to install the factory Mossberg 14" 590 barrel and mag tube and still stay over 26"

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88

To those claiming they don't trust this because the ATF can just reverse their ruling at any time:
This is first of all not a "ruling" it's written right into the law. Not much the ATF can do about it. The required barrel and overall lengths and the definition of a shotgun written into the law really don't leave much room for interpretation.
Secondly, this "ruling" by the ATF is nothing new it has been in place since the GCA 68' if not NFA 34'. If they had any intention to change their mind on it, they'd have done so a long time ago.

Anyway it's not like ATF specifically knows you have one. Build it, have fun with it, impress all the ladies at the range. If ATF ever changes their mind, all you gotta do is install a new 18" barrel and pretend it was always like that.

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