Favorite Modern Battle Rifle: Beside AR or AK


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InkEd
November 11, 2010, 05:43 PM
The battle between AK and AR has oulasted the Cold War. It has been debated ad nauseum online and shows no sign of having a clear winner. So enough about those two rifles.

My question is beside the two aforementioned rifles the AK and the AR, What is your favorite modern battle rifle?

Let's define "modern" as WWII or later conflicts.
Base your answer on COMBAT use NOT shooting TARGETS.

Feel free to expalin the reason for your selection.

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InkEd
November 11, 2010, 05:45 PM
Sig550 for me.

Mr. T
November 11, 2010, 05:51 PM
The following are not ranked in any particular order of preference:
Civilian Browning BAR in 30.06 or .308
Remington 7400 in 30.06 or .308
Ruger Mini 14 or 30
Remington model 700 in 30.06, .308 win., or .270 win.
Winchester model 70 in 30.06, .308 win., .270 win.
M1 Garand
M1-A
M-14

devildog32713
November 11, 2010, 05:52 PM
Barrett REC7, H&K M416

sansone
November 11, 2010, 05:54 PM
BAR or
Rem R25

RX-178
November 11, 2010, 06:04 PM
XCR or PTR-91 over here. It's the only two that I currently own that aren't AKs or ARs.

jyo
November 11, 2010, 06:08 PM
The FN FAL .308 would be my pick---reliable, accurate, soft recoiling in a well proven package.

Narwhal
November 11, 2010, 06:09 PM
M14

InkEd
November 11, 2010, 06:27 PM
H&K M416 is too close to an AR IMHO to count.

Dionysusigma
November 11, 2010, 06:29 PM
Remington R 25 is, too. ;)

Personally, I like the idea behind the F2000 series, but it needs a bit more refinement.

Al Thompson
November 11, 2010, 06:30 PM
M14 or FAL

txhoghunter
November 11, 2010, 06:32 PM
Ok according to your time period, this is the oldest of the "modern" battle rifles. My favorite is the M1 Garand even if we were including the AR (M16 and variants) and the AK. Its combat performance was spectacular (even with the distinctive 'cling') and the soldiers who used it made up the greatest generation of Americans and did more than their share to ensure freedom for others. In my mind, the
M1 set a standard that no rifle since has lived up to, and it will be hard for any combat rifle to ever accomplish its mission the way this fantastic rifle did.

1858
November 11, 2010, 06:34 PM
L1A1 (SLR) with a 30-round Bren magazine ... reminds me of days long past.

:)

Zombiphobia
November 11, 2010, 06:39 PM
FN FAL
HK91

accurate, reliable, durable, hard-hitting ammo.

BUll-pup rifles are cool too and if we can include bolt guns, the AW G22.


Honestly, my favorite besides an AK is a M110, but you said no AR's...

CTW
November 11, 2010, 07:06 PM
I go with the FAL.

Isher
November 11, 2010, 08:07 PM
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_6-JHogjgx_I/TNyCSsw0FuI/AAAAAAAAAS0/sQb3zf-FvYY/s800/800px-Czech_KFOR_%281%29.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_6-JHogjgx_I/TNyCS5ysNlI/AAAAAAAAAS4/i3KY0eYTTS4/s800/800px-Sa_58-JH04.jpg

The Vz. 58 is a 7.62mm assault rifle designed and manufactured in Czechoslovakia and accepted into service in the late 1950s as the 7,62 mm samopal vzor 58 ("7.62mm submachine gun model 1958"), replacing the vz. 52 self-loading rifle and the 7.62x25mm Tokarev vz. 24 and vz. 26 submachine guns. The vz. 58 externally resembles the Soviet AK-47 but is internally a completely different design based on a short-stroke gas piston.
Development of the weapon began in 1956; leading the project was chief engineer Jiří Čermák assigned to the Konstrukta Brno facility in the city of Brno. The prototype, known as the "Koště" ("broom"), was designed to chamber the intermediate Soviet 7.62x39mm M43 cartridge, rather than the Czech 7.62x45mm vz. 52 round, used in both the earlier vz. 52 rifle and the vz. 52 light machine gun. The assault rifle entered service in 1958 and over a period of 25 years (until 1984), over 920,000 weapons had been produced, fielded by the armed forces of the Czechoslovakia, Cuba and several other Asian and African nations.
The vz. 58 was produced in three main variants: the standard vz. 58 P (Pěchotní or "infantry") model with a fixed buttstock made of a synthetic material (wood impregnated plastic, older versions used a wooden stock), the vz. 58 V (Výsadkový—"airborne"), featuring a side-folding metal shoulder stock, folded to the right side, and the vz. 58 Pi (Pěchotní s infračerveným zaměřovačem—"infantry with infrared sight"), which is similar to the vz. 58 P but includes a receiver-mounted dovetail bracket (installed on the left side of the receiver) used to attach an NSP2 night sight; it also has a detachable folding bipod and an enlarged conical flash suppressor.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vz._58

I've got the airborne version - no complaints whatsoever.............

Isher

JNewell
November 11, 2010, 08:08 PM
M1A/M14 certainly makes the short list. FAL would also.

Ian
November 11, 2010, 08:28 PM
I really like the handling of the AR-70/90, but even better is the StG45. I haven't shot an StG44, but I expect it's similar - the 45 just points really naturally for me, has nice soft recoil, and big easy controls.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=83446&stc=1&d=1219389964

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 08:44 PM
Make mine a L85A2, though I really like the VZ.58 as well.

:)

kaferhaus
November 11, 2010, 09:28 PM
HK-91 hands down.

As to the AR/AK debate in my opinion it's no contest the AR is the clear winner, accurate to 350M the AK is a pie plate 100M rifle and not near as "durable" as many profess it to be as I've seen all manner of them jam (not often granted) and they're horribly inaccurate, rust easily, have junk for sights etc.

Having said that I own two AKs because of the fun factor.

mshootnit
November 11, 2010, 09:43 PM
I have heard that the actual Swiss arms 550 (or 550 series?) (Not Sig) is a sweet rifle. Hard for me to go against the Isrealis and their Tavor rifle.
http://www.swissarms.ch/index.php?id=30

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 09:47 PM
Hard for me to go against the Isrealis and their Tabor rifle.That is another good one...though I don't believe I can give the Tavor the edge over the L85A1.

:)

FlyinBryan
November 11, 2010, 10:09 PM
As to the AR/AK debate in my opinion it's no contest the AR is the clear winner, accurate to 350M the AK is a pie plate 100M rifle and not near as "durable" as many profess it to be as I've seen all manner of them jam (not often granted) and they're horribly inaccurate, rust easily, have junk for sights etc.
most folks claim their ak's are 2-3" 100yd groupers

Maverick223
November 11, 2010, 11:01 PM
most folks claim their ak's are 2-3" 100yd groupersMost people are about right. While I have seen some shoot as poorly as about 6in. groups, most seem to keep it in about 3-4in. without trouble, and there probably is a 2" AK out there somewhere. I believe the vast majority of "accuracy problems" are caused by inexperienced and poorly trained shooters. My VZ.58 can shoot sub-2in. groups with stock irons (and ME using them!)...I was really impressed. I am eager to see how it really performs once I put a decent aperture on it, I bet it'll tighten up a bit (I tend to do much better with a peep).

:)

TexasRifleman
November 11, 2010, 11:05 PM
FAL for sure. "Right arm of the free world"

bozzman3
November 11, 2010, 11:11 PM
M14 or Fal

HorseSoldier
November 11, 2010, 11:12 PM
Personal favorite that I've actually shot, besides the two in the title -- toss up between StG-44 and FAL.

sprice
November 11, 2010, 11:13 PM
m14, fal, and sig 550/556

surbat6
November 12, 2010, 01:34 AM
Another vote for the HK91. Mine is reasonably accurate, amazingly reliable and chambered for a cartridge that turns cover into concealment. The last magazines I bought for the HK cost $1.99 each.
I do miss my Steyr AUG A1, though...even though it was one of them poodle shootin 5.56's.

Ignition Override
November 12, 2010, 03:05 AM
Having never trained for combat, don't know.

But there is something very special and solid about my M-1 Garand.

stevelyn
November 12, 2010, 10:04 AM
FAL or Daewoo K2.

JohnD13
November 12, 2010, 10:17 AM
My choice would be an M1 Garand. Second would be an M1A.

sturmgewehr
November 12, 2010, 10:32 AM
Probably the handiest would be the Vz.58. It's very small, light, exceptionally reliable, reasonably accurate and fires the .30 caliber 7.62x39 cartridge. It's the best kept secret in the world of military long arms.

sansone
November 12, 2010, 10:55 AM
dionysus is right, I retract the R25 for being too similar to an AR.. resubmit: BAR & m14

InkEd
November 12, 2010, 12:02 PM
I am surprised by the votes for the BAR. It is a very fine gun BUT very heavy.

(I picked an 8lb Sig55x rifle, so it's not like I'm a lightweight rifle only guy.)

So far it looks like the FAL has slight lead over anything else. The CETME variants trail closely behind with the Garande/M-14 placing third.

I am curious why anyone would take the Garande over the M-14 for combat.

Both shoot powerful cartridges and have a similar feel. (I would think for combat the extra capacity would be an easy winner.)

Darthbauer
November 12, 2010, 12:18 PM
ACR once bushy gets the problems worked out.

lebowski
November 12, 2010, 12:20 PM
AR15 and AK are not battle rifles so no need to specifically exclude them.

FAL hands down.

HellBlazer
November 12, 2010, 12:21 PM
I choose the Accuracy International AW50 & the Cheytac M200 Intervention .408

amprecon
November 12, 2010, 12:27 PM
I have all three the third being an M1A. I'd have no reservations about using it for whatever situations arise, although the other two would be lighter, quicker and smaller to tote around.
I had a Garand, but as I was trying to consolidate my firearms and ammo, I decided I didn't need it, the M1A just does more.

Tirod
November 12, 2010, 12:28 PM
FN SCAR. It uses a common military caliber, and is still in use with SOCOM.

What works better than all the old relic .308 guns is that all the operator's controls are where they should be. You can load the weapon on safe with the bolt back, charge it with the off hand, keep the target in your sights, and flip the safety off without breaking the cheek weld or even moving the finger from the trigger.

We are talking about combat, right? The the best gun has to do all of the above, while moving. If you take your hand off the grip, or break the sight picture, FAIL.

Just because some nations are still 45 years behind in tactical doctrine doesn't justify their acceptance of lesser weapons. And those countries that did move forward adopted weapons with more of the ability to charge the weapon on the move with a sight picture. It's a telling mark to recommend a weapon that's been superceded long ago.

User friendliness and tactical operations are the keys now, not big bulky old rifles with arbitrary controls that slow the user down. We don't use cell phones with rotary dial.

InkEd
November 12, 2010, 01:02 PM
No, we don't use rotary dials on phones anymore BUT people send text messages. IMHO the text message is kind of a step backward. Think about it.

Telegraph:
Tap out a message (in Morris Code) to another telegraph machine. Send it wait for reply. Repeat.

Telephone:
Say what you want to the person on the other end. Get instant feedback.

Text:
Type out what you want to "SAY" and send it. Wait for response. Repeat.

Seems like a step backward to me. Thoughts?

Maverick223
November 12, 2010, 01:06 PM
Probably the handiest would be the Vz.58. It's very small, light, exceptionally reliable, reasonably accurate and fires the .30 caliber 7.62x39 cartridge. It's the best kept secret in the world of military long arms.You may already know this, but it's also based off of the Stg.44. :p

amprecon
November 12, 2010, 01:37 PM
It's a telling mark to recommend a weapon that's been superceded long ago.

My question is beside the two aforementioned rifles the AK and the AR, What is your favorite modern battle rifle?

C'mon folks, lets not demean the choices of others here, InkEd just asked about our favorites, not which is best.

Shear_stress
November 12, 2010, 01:37 PM
You may already know this, but it's also based off of the Stg.44.

Not really. Except for the tilting bolt, the Vz.58 owes very little to the Stg44. The Vz.58 uses a short stroke piston, striker fired FCG and machined receiver. The Stg44 used a long-stroke piston permanently fixed to the bolt carrier, hammer fired action, hinged fire control group, stamped receiver and had a recoil spring located in the butt.

Mr.Davis
November 12, 2010, 01:54 PM
Ok according to your time period, this is the oldest of the "modern" battle rifles. My favorite is the M1 Garand even if we were including the AR (M16 and variants) and the AK. Its combat performance was spectacular (even with the distinctive 'cling') and the soldiers who used it made up the greatest generation of Americans and did more than their share to ensure freedom for others. In my mind, the
M1 set a standard that no rifle since has lived up to, and it will be hard for any combat rifle to ever accomplish its mission the way this fantastic rifle did.

In what way does the Garand provide an advantage over the M-14?

I guess a better way to phrase this is why would you pick it over the M-14?

SpeedAKL
November 12, 2010, 01:55 PM
FN SCAR-H. Potent cartridge, excellent 21st century design.

Mr.Davis
November 12, 2010, 01:56 PM
No, we don't use rotary dials on phones anymore BUT people send text messages. IMHO the text message is kind of a step backward. Think about it.

Telegraph:
Tap out a message (in Morris Code) to another telegraph machine. Send it wait for reply. Repeat.

Telephone:
Say what you want to the person on the other end. Get instant feedback.

Text:
Type out what you want to "SAY" and send it. Wait for response. Repeat.

Seems like a step backward to me. Thoughts?

Text messaging is a lot more appropriate for certain situations. It's often seen as acceptable when a phone call would be very rude, such as when speaking would be disruptive, or when a conversation must be kept private.

sansone
November 12, 2010, 01:58 PM
the key word is "favorite" :D

Pony Express
November 12, 2010, 02:26 PM
M14...without a doubt. Next $1500 that I come into is going to an m1a

Maverick223
November 12, 2010, 02:34 PM
Not really. Except for the tilting bolt, the Vz.58 owes very little to the Stg44. The Vz.58 uses a short stroke piston, striker fired FCG and machined receiver. The Stg44 used a long-stroke piston permanently fixed to the bolt carrier, hammer fired action, hinged fire control group, stamped receiver and had a recoil spring located in the butt.I disagree, the tilt bolt is a significant feature as is the striker firing mechanism (early development of the Stg., the MKb.42, later replaced by a hammer firing mech.), which obviously owes its heritage to the Stg.44. You are right that there were numerous design changes (mostly improvements), but I believe the foundation was the Stg.44.

:)

Rshooter
November 12, 2010, 02:36 PM
M1 Garand. As pointed out earlier the AK and AR are not battle rifles. Neither is the stg44 and a few others mentioned.

I hate to quote wiki but it is correct on this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_rifle

HKGuns
November 12, 2010, 02:39 PM
Garand.

GunTech
November 12, 2010, 02:58 PM
I'd have a hard time choosing between M14 clone (M1A) and FAL. I love the4 M1A for sentimental reasons and superior iron sights. The FAL is easier to maintain. Right now I am without an FAL, but have 3 M1As so I guess that's you answer.

HorseSoldier
November 12, 2010, 05:50 PM
M1 Garand. As pointed out earlier the AK and AR are not battle rifles. Neither is the stg44 and a few others mentioned.

I hate to quote wiki but it is correct on this one.

It's a term with a dubious intellectual heritage and no real validity in official use. It was invented by the same idiots who foisted the 7.62x51 cartridge on the Free World in an attempt to make the resulting weapons chambered for it sound more general purpose than the "specialized" assault rifle.

The AR (and absolutely the AK) have fired more rounds in anger on the battlefield than any of the supposed "battle rifles" so it seems an unnecessary hair splitting to claim they don't count. Personally, I would argue "battle rifle" to reference full powered cartridge firing select fire weapons should be replaced with "Non-Adaptive Service Rifle" (NASR) which more accurately describes their place in the scheme of things in the 1950s and since.

Justin
November 12, 2010, 05:51 PM
Base your answer on COMBAT use NOT shooting TARGETS.

I've never used a gun in combat. I daresay that most people chiming in here haven't, either. My experience with shooting rifles has been limited to merely shooting targets. Since you've stipulated, for whatever reason, that shooting targets isn't a useful metric for judging the effectiveness of a rifle, it seems that you're telling most of the people here that their experiences with various rifle platforms are null and void for reasons that aren't completely clear.


So, since any previous experience many people have has been dismissed out of hand, I guess I can just pick any old rifle and proclaim that it's just as good as any other rifle because it piques my interest.

So my vote is for the LaRue OBR in .308, and my justification is because I think it's a cool looking rifle, which means it would be a great battle rifle.

click clack
November 12, 2010, 05:54 PM
Galil here

InkEd
November 12, 2010, 06:12 PM
Justin:
You misunderstood the comment.

It is not requiring you to HAVE used in combat. It is telling you to base your selection on what you WOULD choose FOR combat. Rifles for the battlefield have different requirements than bullseye rifles. They CAN be used for the other's purpose BUT do better when used as intended by design. Don't overthink things so much. It's a silly survey on the Internet. Lastly, IMHO aesthetics are low on the list of important things when judging a battlefield weapon. To each his own. (I guess worst case scenario, you'll go out in style.) j/k.

Maverick223
November 12, 2010, 06:16 PM
Delete

Shear_stress
November 12, 2010, 09:39 PM
I disagree, the tilt bolt is a significant feature as is the striker firing mechanism (early development of the Stg., the MKb.42, later replaced by a hammer firing mech.), which obviously owes its heritage to the Stg.44. You are right that there were numerous design changes (mostly improvements), but I believe the foundation was the Stg.44.

I'd agree that the foundation for all assault weapons was the Stg44, by definition. However, the Vz.58's combination of tilting bolt and short stroke piston--and even the design of the rear receiver cover--was something that could very easily be attributed to the SKS. Striker designs, besides being very common in bolt action rifles, appeared in Czech machineguns like the (Zb26, aka the Bren) before WWII.

Maverick223
November 12, 2010, 09:47 PM
However, the Vz.58's combination of tilting bolt and short stroke piston--and even the design of the rear receiver cover--was something that could very easily be attributed to the SKS.Okay then...the VZ.58 is based upon the SKS, which owes its heritage to the Stg.44. Better? :p

Carter
November 12, 2010, 09:53 PM
An XCR, fn2000, AUG, FAMAS, or Tavor

What can I say...I like bullpups. Short gun with long barrel. Solves that whole problem of SBR's and poor performing bullets (when dealing with 5.56).

Erik M
November 12, 2010, 09:54 PM
HK 416C or the old standby M14

JDMorris
November 12, 2010, 09:57 PM
FNar. cool looking DMR.

Robert
November 12, 2010, 10:30 PM
Not sure that I would consider WW2, which ended 65 years ago modern. I love the FAL but it is almost that old, as is the M14/ M1A. Not very "modern". But since you precluded the best and most modern rifle I will go with FAL. But I like the OBR that Justin mentioned as well.

Justin
November 12, 2010, 10:37 PM
It is not requiring you to HAVE used a combat. It is telling you to base your selection on what you WOULD choose for combat. Rifles for the battlefield have different requirements than bullseye rifles. They CAN be used for the other's purpose BUT do better when used as intended by design. Don't overthink things so much. It's a silly survey on the Internet.


If it was your intention to exclude people from naming rifles that are highly specialized target guns like, say, an ANSCHÜTZ 2013/690 .22 built for 50 meter smallbore competition (http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.php5?produktID=289&menu=105&sprache=1&produktShow=detail), I don't think there's much chance of anyone picking such rifles.

However, it's a bit short-sighted to exclude guns that can live in both worlds, like those found in some of the rifle-based practical shooting sports.

On top of that, presuming I've somehow ended up in the combat arms segment of some military force, the answer to "what gun do you take into combat?" is pretty clearly going to be "Whichever one is issued to me."

Sheepdog1968
November 12, 2010, 10:37 PM
I personally like the mini14s and mini30s. Then again, I'm partial to the Garand, M1A style of firearms. Not saying it's better. I just happen to like it.

Shear_stress
November 13, 2010, 11:30 AM
Okay then...the VZ.58 is based upon the SKS, which owes its heritage to the Stg.44. Better?

I admire your steadfast ability not to let facts get in the way of a good theory. First, the SKS owes its heritage to a Simonov anti-tank rifle from 1941, including the tilting bolt. Second, the SKS--a fixed magazine, semi-automatic weapon--ain't even an assault rifle by any measure.

Again, all assault rifle owe their conceptual foundation to the sturmgewehr, by definition. But they don't all owe their specific design.

leadcounsel
November 13, 2010, 11:58 AM
Depending on the circumstances... no particular order

M1A .308
PTR 91 .308
MSAR bullpup 5.56
VZ 58 7.62x39

I would not feel underguned in most situations with an SKS or an M1 Garand - although these are not ideal for urban combat where fast reloads and higher capacity and smaller weapons are needed.

I have no experience with the FAL, but it's on my list of weapons to get and learn about.

Maverick223
November 13, 2010, 12:29 PM
I admire your steadfast ability not to let facts get in the way of a good theory. First, the SKS owes its heritage to a Simonov anti-tank rifle from 1941, including the tilting bolt. Second, the SKS--a fixed magazine, semi-automatic weapon--ain't even an assault rifle by any measure.

Again, all assault rifle owe their conceptual foundation to the sturmgewehr, by definition. But they don't all owe their specific design.Why don't we just agree to disagree...I still feel the VZ.58 was based upon the Stg.44; there are simply too many design coincidences for relative neighbors. I don't believe the SKS had anything to do with it...hence the smiley following that statement.

:)

Shear_stress
November 13, 2010, 12:38 PM
Why don't we just agree to disagree...I still feel the VZ.58 was based upon the Stg.44; there are simply too many design coincidences for relative neighbors. I don't believe the SKS had anything to do with it...hence the smiley following that statement.

Fair enough.

Whatever it is, I think we can both agree that the Vz.58 is one hell of a good rifle.

Maverick223
November 13, 2010, 01:09 PM
Whatever it is, I think we can both agree that the Vz.58 is one hell of a good rifle.Now that is something we can agree to agree on!

:)

Youngster
November 13, 2010, 02:11 PM
Another vote for the VZ-58 here.

These guns make the AK seem fat, heavy and crude while retaining most of that design's reliability, ruggedness and ease of maintenance. The ability to load it directly with SKS stripper clips is a nice bonus.

Isher
November 13, 2010, 05:12 PM
I see the '58 crew is emerging from the lurking fog..........

Here is a marvelous vid put out by CZUSA for all you nonbelievers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PqAk-qianA&NR=1

And no, in no way do I represent nor am I an agent for CZUSA;

I just happen to think the '58 represents all the advantages, and none of the disadvantages of this class of firearm.

Isher

henschman
November 13, 2010, 07:46 PM
The M-14 stands head and shoulders above any other battle rifle designed before or since.

The AR and the AK wouldn't make my short list. The only reason I have an AR is so I can use the enemy's ammo against them in a rifle that I have all set up the way I like it, in case I run low on 7.62x51 and .30 '06. It also doesn't hurt to stay proficient with their main rifle. I have an AK just to have that caliber covered in case I have ammo for it. That and it is a pretty good carbine for home defense.

61chalk
November 13, 2010, 07:56 PM
Sense I have Garands an over 1000 rds. of HXP an 1000 rds. of AP....I'll go with the Garand..."Turning what the enemy thought was cover into only concealment."

NWCP
November 13, 2010, 08:42 PM
It's a toss up between the HK91 and CZ SA VZ58 for me.

sappyg
November 13, 2010, 08:51 PM
i'm glad to read a thread that that excludes the AR and AK. thanks OP :)

i've always liked the FAL. when i was a kid i remember drooling over any pic i could find of one.
i have the same reaction now when i see the SCAR-H. to me it looks like the FAL on steroids. the fact that it has been adopted for US service nudges it to the top of the heap of favorites. i have never owned or fired either (or most mentioned here) but i could could be happy staring at the SCAR all day.

1858
November 13, 2010, 11:42 PM
However, the Vz.58's combination of tilting bolt and short stroke piston--and even the design of the rear receiver cover--was something that could very easily be attributed to the SKS.

What tilting bolt? The Vz.58 bolt doesn't tilt or rotate. The bolt is locked in place by the locking piece which cams up and down as the bolt carrier moves backwards and forwards. It's a brilliantly simple design and one of the reasons why I bought one.

:)

InkEd
November 14, 2010, 12:05 AM
The vz58, cz-(fill in the numbers), HS2000/XD there is little arguing that the Czechs make some real nice firearms!

stubbicatt
November 14, 2010, 10:05 AM
I am fond of the G3. Neat rifle, reliable, and accurate. Easy to clean.

Shear_stress
November 14, 2010, 10:57 AM
The bolt is locked in place by the locking piece which cams up and down as the bolt carrier moves backwards and forwards.
You are correct. I was a little hasty in my description.

FourteenMiles
November 14, 2010, 11:15 AM
The vz58, cz-(fill in the numbers), HS2000/XD there is little arguing that the Czechs make some real nice firearms!

I won't argue that the Czechs don't make some fine weapons, but the HS2000/XD was designed in another eastern European country, Croatia.

armoredman
November 14, 2010, 11:22 AM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZ%20posters/vz-58withP01.jpg

vz me, baby. Still in service today.

InkEd
November 14, 2010, 11:26 AM
You are 100% correct about Croatia. I was tired when I typed that line. Sorry.

kimberkid
November 14, 2010, 07:46 PM
Since the AR doesn't count ... and technically the SiG-556 isn't a battle rifle, my favorites platforms are the Daewoo Ar110C, HK-93 and AUG

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/kimberkid/Toys/Other556Platforms.jpg

Hatterasguy
November 14, 2010, 09:26 PM
Sig PE57 and stg90.

Also FN Scar, G36, VZ58, and FN Fal.

IMHO the Sig PE57 is the Rolls Royce of battle rifles, in 7.5x55 Swiss of course.

sarduy
November 15, 2010, 01:24 AM
give me a G36

HorseSoldier
November 15, 2010, 08:53 AM
Since the AR doesn't count ... and technically the SiG-556 isn't a battle rifle, my favorites platforms are the Daewoo Ar110C, HK-93 and AUG

I like the general look of the Deawoo's, but that collapsible stock just doesn't work for me. I wouldn't mind one with a fixed stock, or a side folder if they build such a thing.

stevelyn
November 15, 2010, 10:54 AM
I like the general look of the Deawoo's, but that collapsible stock just doesn't work for me. I wouldn't mind one with a fixed stock, or a side folder if they build such a thing.

Ahh...... But they do. Unfortunately they are no longer imported due to Bush 41. I have a K2 side folder. The fixed stock is the Clinton thumbhole abomination called the DP 200. The last one I saw in skAnchorage was at AK Shooters Supply about 2 years ago.

It would be nice if they started importing parts kits.

KSDeputy
November 15, 2010, 11:43 AM
I own two AR-15 rifles, original ones made by Colt. I also own a Remington 7400 carbine in 30.06 with ten of the Eagle 10 round magazines. If it was a real battle, I would pick the 7400.

InkEd
November 15, 2010, 12:01 PM
KimberKid,

If you like your Sig556 (and I like mine) just vote for the original Sig550.

essayons21
November 15, 2010, 03:08 PM
I can't believe nobody has mentioned the MAS-49/56

Yeah they got a bad rap because of the Century hackjob .308 conversions, but the original 7.5 rifle was an infantryman's dream.

Rock-solid reliable, every part is overbuilt, good sights, accurate, yet it is still light and handy. Easier to take down and clean than a AK, DI system with very few moving parts. And it is has one of the best rifle grenade launching systems ever put on a battle rifle, with good sights for both direct and indirect fire, AND came with night sights... in 1956!

The French may not be the best at using rifles, but they have some of the best weapon designers in the world.

SpeedAKL
November 15, 2010, 03:20 PM
Are we definiing "battle rifle" as any military-type rifle or carbine or as a military-type rifle that fires a high-powered (i.e. greater than 7.62x39 or 6.8SPC) round such as 7.62 NATO?

Bohemus
November 15, 2010, 03:47 PM
Battle rifle? I liked L1A1 but never used it in battle, same goes to my favourite "assault" rifle Sa vz.58..

Okay then...the VZ.58 is based upon the SKS, which owes its heritage to the Stg.44. Better? :p

Ever heard of ZK 412 (http://forum.valka.cz/attachments/11345/zk_412.jpg) and 8mm Rapid (8x35mm) of 1941?;)
Its interesting how many people once learned "vz is not ak" start to seek what it was derivated from insted of excepting the fact it is original;)

p.s. If bolt tilts on your vz, you should better send it to gunsmith coz it shouldnt tilt;)

Maverick223
November 15, 2010, 07:56 PM
Its interesting how many people once learned "vz is not ak" start to seek what it was derivated from insted of excepting the fact it is originalNo way those Czechs could come up with something good and original...just kidding, just kidding. :p

p.s. If bolt tilts on your vz, you should better send it to gunsmith coz it shouldnt tiltDespite the improper technical jargon, that is typically how the mechanism is described.

:)

CornCod
November 15, 2010, 10:31 PM
Although not technically a battle rifle, I love the Paratrooper SKS. Yes, I know that it was never officially issued by any army. Still, I would trust one in combat. Thankfully, I have never had to fire any shots in anger.

BudW
November 15, 2010, 10:34 PM
M14

mattlove444
November 16, 2010, 08:32 AM
Ptr-91

dogsoldier0513
November 16, 2010, 11:46 AM
FN FAL or a British L1A1

kayak-man
November 18, 2010, 10:02 PM
I am curious why anyone would take the Garande over the M-14 for combat.

Both shoot powerful cartridges and have a similar feel. (I would think for combat the extra capacity would be an easy winner.)

I would pick a Garande over an M1a, and probably over the M14. I admit that I only have "book" knowledge of these, have never been in a firefight, have never undergone any real training, and if I say anything that is wrong, inaccurate, or misleading, by all means, correct me:

IIRC, both the Garande and the M14 are very acurate guns, with the M14 being a bit more accurate. They are both powerful and fast rounds, with the 30-06 being a bit more powerful than the .308. The differance in power and accuracy is small, and (YMMV) either way, the lower end of one variable is still well above what is needed to get the job done.
I don't know very much about tactics, techniques, or tricks of the trade when it comes down to using one rifle or the other, or even combat in general. My tactics are going to be limited to running to cover where I can fire from. I'm not going to be making these spectacular 1,000 yard shots, I'm going to be point/instictive shooting - not because thats the best way, but because I'd be so wired I would going off of reflexes, muscle memory, and instinct - so the added acuracy of the M14 isn't going to do me much good.
That little bit extra bit of force from the 30-06, the ability to penetrate cover a little bit more, and semi auto only fire would emphasizes my (almost nonexistent and imagined) strengths.

As for magazine capacity, I'm a clumsy guy. I'm going to drop magazines, so I'd rather not have all my eggs in the one basket. Also, since I'd be doing reloads in practice with the Garande, I'm less likely to screw that up. I do have kind of a soft spot for the Garande, so its very likely that these are all justifications to support that choice, instead of data that lead to that choice.

Sorry I was so long winded and incoherent. As always, opinions or corrections that contradict me will be met with open ears.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

txhoghunter
November 18, 2010, 11:22 PM
Ok IMO, if you are clumsy with reloads, then the Garand should not be your top pick out of those two. After round #8, you and your enemy are doing to hear a distinct *ding* and everyone is going to know you are out of ammo (temporarily). A VERY bad time to be fumbling with a reload. For most modern combat situations in Iraq, being house to house and room to room, both weapons are too long to be effective. But should we be in more open country, I feel that the M14 would be the overall better choice.

And just to point out, there is a reason the M14 has been pulled back into service. (although not as a battle rifle)

Maverick223
November 18, 2010, 11:33 PM
I am curious why everyone keeps adding an "e" to Garand... :uhoh: :neener:

goon
November 18, 2010, 11:37 PM
I am curious why everyone keeps adding an "e" to Garand...

Spanglish.

kayak-man
November 19, 2010, 01:02 AM
txhoghunter,

I completely forgot about the ding. I'm not clumsy at reloading, just in general, but I agree that the M14 would be the logical choice from that perspective. I was thinking in terms of "If I drop a magazine, I can either lose 8 rounds, or 20." In retrospect, that was not the brightest idea I had today, so thanks for pointing that out.

Maverick: I threw the e on the end because I sometimes confuse overpriced coffee with classic american firearms :evil:

nwilliams
November 19, 2010, 01:36 AM
My pick would be the FN SCAR

I can't testify to its battlefield effectiveness because I've never been in battle but I really like the design and if I were to go into battle and have the choice of a rifle to take with me it would be a SCAR, even if I had the option of an AR or AK it would still be my choice. I have the civilian version and I love it.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/FN%20SCAR/SCAR-7.jpg

trultemor
November 19, 2010, 06:43 AM
Maybe a modernized G3.
AG3-F2

http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00093/formann_93303a.jpg

Spec ops Grunt
November 19, 2010, 07:05 AM
AUG

ifit
November 19, 2010, 07:27 AM
vz58
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/479.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/086.jpg

trultemor
November 19, 2010, 11:30 AM
RK95

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6650/dsc01619bni8.jpg
http://tietokannat.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/media/1113200271_IMG_7465.jpg


Or a RK62

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/114/rk_62_76.jpg

thisisoriginal
November 19, 2010, 12:03 PM
Ive never been in battle, but there will be a battle if someone comes into my house. Then I'll get to test if my mauser that sleeps with me is ready for combat :p :p :p

thisisoriginal
November 19, 2010, 12:05 PM
my battle partner if someone comes in my house :p

http://www.mauser98k.internetdsl.pl/vz24/20.jpg

M2HB M240
November 21, 2010, 12:58 AM
I say the M1 Garand, even though I believe that the Garand should have been built to use the existing BAR mags that were arounds almost 20 years before the Garand was adopted. Browning was way ahead of his time.

bannockburn
November 21, 2010, 11:10 AM
FN FAL Model 50-63

natescout
November 21, 2010, 11:26 AM
Mk 14

skipbo32
December 1, 2010, 03:52 AM
the M14 is my choice even before the AK or AR.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03934.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03937.jpg

skipbo32
December 1, 2010, 03:55 AM
the M14 is my choice even before the AK or AR.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03934.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC03937.jpg

Mr_Pale_Horse
December 1, 2010, 04:35 PM
Bundeswehr G3

d2wing
December 2, 2010, 08:13 PM
All good but as a combat vet I would take the M-14. It's more accurate than than most other .308s. In training I put 9/10 shots in 1 hole at 25 meters. It handles nice, is lighter and shorter than a Garand and is clip fed. It also works with a bayonet if needed. Most of the others feel too ackward, bulky and front heavy for fast shooting. If you have to live with a rifle 24/7 and use it as a fighting tool
you need something that's handy. I like the rifle version M16 better but nobody that's used an M-14 complains about it.

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