110 grain 30 cal in A .308 for hunting coyote and deer?


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JDMorris
November 14, 2010, 10:38 PM
If i made good shots would it work? I would rather use a bullet that will stay in the critters, making it easier to convince farmers to let me hunt thier land by saying I use a specialized bullet that fragments or somthing.
Will it do? coyotes will be headshots, deer, behind shoulder shots.

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Ditch-Tiger
November 14, 2010, 11:34 PM
Will it kill a yote, definitely.
Will your gun stabilize that light of a round to accurately group, probably not.

CHEVELLE427
November 14, 2010, 11:58 PM
i tried just a few in my cetme 308, they cycled but im not sure what down range looked like, i just wanted to see if it would cycle and feed

Kachok
November 15, 2010, 12:01 AM
Plenty of 1:10 twist 30-06s stabilize 125-130 gr 30 cals, so I don't see why a 308 would not do the same. I don't think that anyone builds a 110gr that I would trust on deer though. There is a 125 gr Ballistic tip that should open very quickly, fragment half it's weight and still penatrate the vitals without much over penatration. That would be my top pick without going to another caliber (100gr 25-06....Evil smile) I can give you the Nosler reloading numbers if you like.

JDMorris
November 15, 2010, 07:53 AM
I don't load, was planning on it but dont have the money for it.
I do know a guy who does load, and he will load whatever for me if I bring him the ingredients. as long as it's safe.
for a cost... I need somthing light for them critters till I can get a .223 or .243 designated 'yote gun.

Art Eatman
November 15, 2010, 10:34 AM
Odds are that even a "slow" 1:10 twist will stabilize the 110-grain well enough for Bambi and Wily. They worked okay in my 1917 Enfield, whatever twist those are. (You look it up. I'm lazy.)

Neck shot or cross-body heart shot? Fine. I would avoid an angling shot through the body to hope to reach the heart/lungs.

That bullet will probably fertilize a half-acre of ground with coyote parts and pieces, though. :D

Daniel Boone
November 15, 2010, 10:39 AM
110 grain bullet in a 30-06 is too light.

It will fly real fast, but will not retain much energy down range.

I believe that you need both good penetration and a adequate bullet size to properly dispatch a whitetail deer and the problem with your thoughts is that the 110 GR bullet will not retain enough energy for a clean pass thru shot.

Your goal would be better served using a .243 and not a 30-06

Harley Quinn
November 15, 2010, 11:48 AM
06 have a nice spread of bullets...But imho 125 is about as low as I would go...It is not overkill, it will do the job nicly...

If you want to use the 110 do some reloading, and take them to the range see if they are worthy of loading or not... I would not bother myself, go with the 125s... Best to be able to hit what you aim at, look around, I am sure there are some bullets that mushroom better than others...

Good article in the last "Rifleman" about bullets...It is a worthy read...

Regards

rcmodel
November 15, 2010, 11:59 AM
My old 30-06 Springfield 1/10 two-groove barrel will shoot 110 grain varmint bullets MOA.
A 1/12 .308 will do even better with them.

They shoot very flat out to 400 yards or more.
In a .308, started at 3,200 FPS, with a 200 yard zero:
They drop 11" at 400 and 18" at 500.

But they are VERY explosive on coyotes & crows, and I don't think I would trust them to always make it through a deers ribs or shoulder bones.

You would be much better off with a 125-130 designed more for hunting.

rc

susquehannaslim
November 15, 2010, 12:09 PM
If you plan on hunting deer with your 308,dont use any boolit lighter than 150grs. JMHO.
Let the flaming begin !!!!

TIMC
November 15, 2010, 01:51 PM
If I read your post right you are thinking a lighter bullet will not over penetrate. That thinking is incorrect.

Pretty much any bullet weight and construction can and will pass through depending on the situation (bullet construction, range, muzzle velocity, soft tissue pass through).

I would stick with whatever bullet weight shoots well out of your rifle then tailor a specific bullet construction and powder load that optimizes accuracy and has enough energy to rapidly expand the bullet. If you don't want bullets flying around past the target then accuracy should be your top priority more than over penetration.

I have found in my AR-10 that Hornady SST's perform very well and seldom exit on deer at ranges of 100 yards or more and those that do don't really have much left energy wise even though they are flying at 2820fps out of the barrel.

Another example it the FN PBR rifle I have that I am running 125 grain Sierra spitzers out of. I see through and through shots more with this round than the Hornady SST's.

One other suggetion on bullet construction would be to try the Berrys plated bullets. I have used them with great success out of my Beowulf having no pass though shots on anything past 60 yards out while hunting pigs. These bullets would litterally blow up on impact. My only concern would be how they would hold up at speeds, say over 2300-2400 fps.

JDMorris
November 15, 2010, 04:58 PM
My .308 is A 1:10 twist Howa M-1500. Why is it that a fast twist does not stabilize lighter bullets? I have heard my twist will stabilize up to 220 grain loads.

rcmodel
November 15, 2010, 05:05 PM
Who says it doesn't?

Like I said above, my 1/10 30-06 shoots 110's under an inch on a good day.

It is much harder to over-stablize a short bullet then it is to under-stabilize a long bullet.

rc

bang_bang
November 15, 2010, 05:07 PM
I have loaded some in my 300 Win Mag and have taken groundhogs and deer at over 150 yards. ;)

JDMorris
November 15, 2010, 09:37 PM
well, Looks like the 125 grainers have got the deal right now.

X-Rap
November 15, 2010, 10:22 PM
I thought you said you had a shotgun? I would use it while calling and just tend more to the brush. Put a good 22 Hi Power centerfire on your Christmas list and see what happens.

justgoto
November 16, 2010, 02:34 AM
My .308 is A 1:10 twist Howa M-1500. Why is it that a fast twist does not stabilize lighter bullets? I have heard my twist will stabilize up to 220 grain loads.

That twist rate with the velocities you have will not stabilize a 220gr bullet. And just to be clear, it isn't the weight, it is the length of the bullet.

Do some research on "The Greenhill Formula (http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Greenhill+Formula&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)." Look for a program that calculates it and see what length bullet your rife will stabilize.

hardluk1
November 16, 2010, 09:53 AM
Check out Georgia Arms. They have a 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3000fps. I have used this load for some years in my 308 and it does tremmendous damage but does don't frag like old NBT did . Deer just don't move more than a couple steps and fall. I do shoot center chest and typicaly will find damage to the spine too. Never shot a deer with it beyond 200 yards. Have this in a shorter lighter 788 rem just for bottom hunting.

kaferhaus
November 16, 2010, 10:29 AM
I shoot the 110s out of a 30-06 and have been killing deer with that load for 20yrs. Never recovered a bullet but the damage is extreme.

I've taken deer from 75 to 200yds with it and never had to go look for one.

When I started developing the load for it I quickly found one that put 3 shots into just over an inch and stopped right there. I'm confident that with a little load development I could have shrunken those groups a good bit but as it was only meant to be a 200-250yd deer getter there wasn't much point in it.

I'm getting over 3200 fps out of it which is plenty for the ranges I shoot with this light bullet.

Kachok
November 16, 2010, 11:08 AM
110s YIKES!! what bullet is that? I am more of a full penatration guy, because if I had my choice of bullet failures I would much rather have a bullet under expand and leave a clean .264-.30 cal hole through the vitals then have a bullet explode just under the skin. Round balls and FMJs were killing deer long before high tech poly tips were ever thought of. That said if you can find a 110-125 gr that will stay intact long enough to reach the vitals every time by all means go for it, a 308 or 30-06 has plenty of kenetic energy for a shock kill.

kaferhaus
November 16, 2010, 11:27 AM
110s YIKES!! what bullet is that? I am more of a full penatration guy

Nosler Ballistic tip.

Usually leaves a hole on the outbound side big enough to put 3 fingers in so penetration is not an issue.

The BC of this bullet ain't great and it will lose steam quickly so like I said it's a 200-250yd bullet.

The one 'short range" deer I killed, right at 75yds the little bullet just about turned the heart and lungs into liquid.... one gooey mess. The longest one was a yard or two shy of 200yds and blew the top of the heart apart. Looked like someone had taken a ice cream scoop full out of it.

The only dodgey shot I made with it was at (guessing cause I didn't step it off) was a rear quartering shot at about 125yds. Bullet exited out the front of the animal just below the neck torso junction. That one fell straight down in a heap.

I don't hunt deer with 22CFs but it's legal here and many guys have harvested some nice bucks with a 63gr semi point out of 223s.

Just really doesn't take much to kill a 200lb deer if you choose your shot wisely.

GooseGestapo
November 16, 2010, 11:45 AM
It's possible to approach 3,500fps with the .30/06 with the 110gr bullet. I've gotten sub-moa at 3,350fps. However for deer hunting with a 110gr from an '06, I'd use a lighter load. Something with less noise and blast. A starting load of H4895 is a good start.

The Hornady 110gr PtSpt (don't know if they still make it) worked best for me. They also made a 110gr HP that was likewise accruate but was very-very explosive on varmints and I'd not recommend it.

I would't guarentee that either of these bullets wouldn't exit a deer, as it would be dependent on impact velocity. I've seen the 75gr .257" hollow points that are very similar to the 110gr .308's completely penetrate deer when shot from a .257Roberts at 3,400fps. I took 7 deer one evening on a depredation permit with that load, and NONE of them remained in the deer. Ranges ran from 75yds to 300+yds.

I would just convince the land owners by your gracious behavior that you are a good risk, not by some "super special ammunition that you made yourself" deal.

Kachok
November 16, 2010, 12:02 PM
110gr 30 cal Ballistic Tip?? My new Nosler manual contains no such bullet, did they discontinue them? The lightest one listed is the 125gr. A ballistic tip at 3300+fps sounds very explosive.

kaferhaus
November 16, 2010, 12:10 PM
110gr 30 cal Ballistic Tip?? My new Nosler manual contains no such bullet,

Well I screwed that up! Had to go to the re-loading room and look....

Hornady 23010 VMAX, that's what happens when you've got so many different caliber rifles and bullets.... sorry, my bad.

tinygnat219
November 16, 2010, 12:20 PM
How about using a 12 Gauge Slug? It's accurate enough to 100 yards or so and doesn't tend to really overtravel since it's trajectory drops quite a bit after that and it'll put something like Whitetail down pretty regularly.

Kachok
November 16, 2010, 12:28 PM
A Vmax makes a good deer round?!?!? Well I guess you learn somthing new every day. I always thought Vmax was a little lightly constructed for anything larger then a yote, but I have never really used them before either.

Harley Quinn
November 16, 2010, 12:47 PM
The ability to stabilize a 100 grain in 6 mm (actually named 244 then) was the downfall of Remington when they offered a 90 grain in a barrel that was not fast enough to stabilize a 100 grainer:what: 243 Win, won that contest...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6mm_Remington

Have come a long way since then...

The 223 is another who switched the twist a lot with heavier bullets... So yea, it is a bit confusing for some:(

Bottom line is you have to reload, have a bunch to put through the barrel and see what your particular rifle will do well with...

The hotter bullets take the life out of a barrel very fast... 264 Win Mag in a Rem rifle comes to mind.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/the-264-winchester-magnum#close

PS..Have read also don't over clean the barrel several articles on it...
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1124298
Regards

JDMorris
November 16, 2010, 06:13 PM
Thanks guys. I have some bullets saved on my computer, might order, but some of this has convinced me to stick with a regular load. Im thinking 150 grain SST or 168 grain A-max or 165 Interlock, and the V-max 110 grain for yotes. Orr.. just a 150 grain SST for everything.

Kachok
November 16, 2010, 06:27 PM
I don't know about the A-max, it was not designed as a hunting bullet although a few people have used them as such. SSTs rock though.

Daniel Boone
November 18, 2010, 08:31 PM
That twist rate with the velocities you have will not stabilize a 220gr bullet. And just to be clear, it isn't the weight, it is the length of the bullet.

Do some research on "The Greenhill Formula." Look for a program that calculates it and see what length bullet your rife will stabilize.
__________________


It all depends - the reason I say that is because a heavier bullet has to be longer to hold the weight. So it stands to reason that the heavier bullet will be longer and easier to stabilize from the standpoint of a boat tail bullet - which is more aerodynamic - but not all hunting bullets are boat tails.

I used this analogy on another forum and got flamed for doing so.
By using the Greenhill formula - we know that the twist rate for a 150 gr 30 caliber bullet flying 2800 FPS is about 10.9
That is the reason why Howa and some other manufacturers uses a twist rate of about 1:10 in their 30 caliber - 22 inch barrel.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

When you use a 180 bullet - you need a different twist rate to properly stabilize the bullet... There is all kinds of theory's on how fast the bullet is spinning when it is flying through the air and how much it spins when it hits the target and how little it decreases in RPM when it flies long distances compared to the velocity that it burns off while it flies through the air.

The 180 gr bullet in a 30-06 displaces some cartridge case capacity and so it cannot hold as much powder and so it cannot fly as fast as the 150 gr bullet can and so that is the reason why it holds more energy down range - but flies slower then the 150 gr bullet.

The US Military found this out way back in 1905 and modified the 30-03 to be a 30 caliber round with a 150 gr bullet - adopted in 1906 - hence the rifle it was shot out of was called a Springfield and the name stuck. 30-06 Springfield.

The original round was designed to replace the 30 Military - 30/40 Krag - which was a smokeless powder cartridge, that was only used by the US Military for about 16 years from the time it was developed until it was phased out and the 30-06 was brought on board.

The original 30-03 was designed by people who fought in the US Civil war and did not understand that it did not take a large bullet to kill or injure a human. The original round used a 220 gr bullet and did not perform any better then the 30-40 Krag that it replaced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-40_Krag

JDMorris
November 18, 2010, 10:36 PM
huh, I understand this. and now have the urge to shoot 220 grainers or 200's to see if i cant prove you wrong.
Im trying to get the loads worked out this month by the rangemaster who loads.

justgoto
November 18, 2010, 11:25 PM
So it stands to reason that the heavier bullet will be longer and easier to stabilize from the standpoint of a boat tail bullet - which is more aerodynamic - but not all hunting bullets are boat tails.
You need to read the link you provided. Specifically; longer (pointed) bullets require faster twist rates than shorter (round nose) bullets of the same weightheavier bullets require faster twist rates than lighter bullets of the same shape

Art Eatman
November 19, 2010, 12:03 AM
I've had a bunch of dropped-right-there deer kills with the Sierra 150-grain bullet from my '06, both flat-based and boat-tailed. Closest was 30 yards, maybe less; longest, 450. Mostly in the 150 to 250 range.

A few poor, innocent coyotes were rather displeased, as well. They were so upset that they just lay down and quit, not going anywhere. Seemed to have lost a good bit of weight, also...

JDMorris
November 19, 2010, 10:07 PM
well. this thread has become very conflicting MODs. please close for me. :)
I have decided to have 2 loads. and know how to adjust my scope.

Sunray
November 20, 2010, 01:37 AM
"...easier to convince farmers to let me..." That's not about the bullet or cartridge you use. It's about trust and respect. Closing gates that were closed, not damaging anything or leaving a mess of any kind. So does offering your help with whatever you can. Sharing any game you kill helps too.
Politely asking for permission, not on Sunday or having a rifle with you or wearing any cammies, matters too. If a farmer says no, thank him and leave. Doesn't hurt to ask if he knows somebody though. You strike me as a guy who understands polite.
"...by saying..." They know better. BSing 'em won't help your cause.
Your Howa the only rifle you have? Good deer rifle, but the .308 is a bit much for coyotes. It'll certainly do the job if your rifle shoots light bullets well enough, but it'll be loud. Had a dairy farmer comment about how loud my .243 is, long ago. Loud, apparently matters.
110 grain bullets are made for the .30 Carbine. A 110 grain HP blows a hole the size of a grapefruit in a ground hog out of a .30 Carbine.
"...Why is it that a fast twist does not stabilize lighter bullets?..." That isn't a fast twist for a .30 calibre. 1 in 10 is a standard .30 cal twist for 147/150 and up bullets. Light bullets are shorter, so there isn't as much bullet to catch the rifling, for lack of a better term. Try a 125 or 130.
"...this thread has become very conflicting..." Happens on internet forums. Opinions being whatthey are. You have provided an excellent discussion topic. Thanks.
What load did you decide on?

JDMorris
November 20, 2010, 07:52 PM
I decided on 2 loads to be handloaded.
a slow 200 grain softpoint.
and a HOTT 168 grain BTHP load.
my coydog loads will be federal 150 gr softpoints.
I decided it because after doing EXTENSIVE, and I mean it. research, a 150 grain will be better. and im not concerned about overkill on the 'yotes. they will be removed, and dumped somewhere else.
I would rather have deer drop like rocks than have nice coyote pelts and lost deer.

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