[FireInTheHole]

I finally got to the range and chronoed some loads I've been working on today. Here's the data:

All loads were made using once fired WWB .40 brass fired from my G22, Winchester Small Pistol Primers and were all individually weighed.

Some the the load data listed here is interpolated and/or not yet published. Compressed loads should be used with caution.

Note: These were fired from a standard 4.5" G22 barrel.

10.5gr 800x 135gr Nosler 1.130" OAL["MAX LOAD"]:
1360
1392
1362
1390
1352
1390
1399
1350
1393
1446
Average: 1383fps
Average Deviation: 22fps

11.0gr 800x 135gr Nosler[compressed]
1508
1435
Error
1471
1362
1438
1437
1376
1396
1441
Average: 1429fps
AD: 34fps

12gr LongShot 135gr Nosler 1.130" OAL[MAX LOAD]
1466
1457
1471
1484
1459
1449
1523
1526
1529
1458
Average: 1482fps or 658ft-lbs
AD: 27fps

Work Up(no published data)
8.0gr VV 3N37 1.130" OAL
1172
1181
1161
1145
Error
Average: 1165fps

8.5gr VV 3N37
1210
1164
1230
1203
1237
Average: 1209fps

9.0gr VV 3N37
1282
1276
1280
1245
1276
Average: 1272fps

Note: 9.5gr could quite possibly be within safe parameters...

200gr XTP 6.7gr 800x 1.135" OAL
976
987
1000
990
962
983
974
985
972
999
Average: 983fps

200gr XTP 7.0gr 800x[MAX LOAD]
996
1015
1020
1004
1025
1000
984
1027
1015
994
Average: 1008fps or 451ft-lbs

200gr XTP 6gr LongShot 1.135" OAL[MAX LOAD]
966
926
926
930
Error
939
926
926
973
967
Average: 942fps

For comparison I also tested 5 rounds of 155gr factory loaded gold dots through my G22:
1209
1198
1201
1214
1213
Average: 1207fps or 501ft-lbs

Recoil of the 1500fps 135gr load is intense and they are VERY loud. Impressive flash as well. The 800x 135gr loads have incredible flash... and alot of unburnt powder. Further compression (11.5-12gr) might be possible, but I am not that brave.(or one might say, stupid)

Questions, comments, concerns?
-FITH

EDIT: I believe my next tests will be with power pistol and I will increase the 3N37 charge by .1gr until 9.5gr is reached. I may pick up some 135gr rainiers and to try to determine to what extent the velocities will diverge for plated vs JHP. (I'm thinking 11.5gr will be MAX for LS... we shall see)

The muzzle flash with the 800x was much more pronounced than LS. The compressed load spewed out burning flakes which I am certain would be quite spectacular at night. I might lower the 800x load to 9.5-10gr and use a mag primer to see if I can clean up some of the unburnt powder. Performance may be enhanced.

Anybody wishing to run these types of loads through a standard glock or other light pistol might want to consider a spring upgrade. I'm running a 22# now to save my 2nd generation frame from the battering.

[HSMITH]

FITH, well done sir. Valuable and easily readable data. Thanks much.

I have been shooting the 12. grains of Longshot under the 135 Noslers in my G22 and KNEW they were stout, but you quantified it for me as I have not chronographed them. I did not notice a lot of flash though, not nearly what I get with starting loads of Power Pistol..... The bang is definately intense, much like a hot 357 magnum in pitch and amplitude to me. Pressure signs on the case are lower than any factory ammo I have tried too, amazing performance and quite a powder. Clean, meters well, fairly low flash, you have to love it. Gonna buy a 4 pounder if that tells you what I think of Longshot.

[Black Snowman]

Wow, quite interesting. I might have to give LongShot a try if I don't feel comfortable with my #107 loads I'll eventually be developing. Thanks for sharing all the hard work.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

In my feed ramp welded Glock 22 40sw I have shot:
12 gr LONGSHOT, 200 gr, case failure
9 gr 3N37, 200 gr case full
11.5 gr Blue Dot, 200 gr, case full
13.5 gr Power Pistol, 200 gr primer fell out
15.5 gr 800X, 200 gr, intense recoil

[wingman]

All I can say is good luck and use eye protection.:(

[Clark]

I've got so much data on so many calibers, powders, and bullets that end with something like: "primer fell out, extractor groove expanded .004", that I am going to do some expeiments making military like primer crimping. I will start out with two sets of safety glasses on while crimping. I was in an experiment in 1963 when a guy got hit with a primer. That made a nasty wound.

[FireInTheHole]

Perhaps I should have named this thread "Safe Power Loads For The .40 S&W", eh Clark?

I'm too young to give up use of my right and or my eyesight for this hobby. ;)

[Publicola]

Hey, y'all are grown ups & can do whatever you want, but 1500 fps with a 135 grainer from a glock w/ a 4.5" barrel?????

first of all the hottest loads I have seen for a 135 grainer is a little over 1300 fps. Upping the velocity 200 fps cannot still be within safe pressure limits.

second, a glock with a standard barrel??? there simply isn't enough chamber support to do that kind of hot rodding safely.

I have a Taurus with a 5" barrel & I damn sure wouldn't try to push a 135 grainer to 1500 fps.

Personally I've settled on Blue Dot & Unique for my .40 I've heard Blue Dot can be a little inconsistent but so far so good. The Unique seems alright as well, but haven't shot as much of it as the Blue Dot. & I've also settled on 165 or 135 grainers. In the summer I like the 135 grain Sierra JHP's & the winter means either 165 grain Golden Sabers or Speer TMJ's (for bear country).

But y'all are certainly much braver than I am. Every time I think about trying to push my .40 like y'all do I start thinking it'd be easier & much much safer to just go with a 10mm.

End of lecture. Y'all be careful.

Incidentally, I started reloading solely because I couldn't find any decent, full power FMJ loads for the .40 S&W. For biped defense of course hollowpoints are more effective, but the .40 S&W is the biggest pistol cartridge I have & wanted it to be useful as a backpacking/hunting back up gun. I could be wrong but I'm thinking that a 165 grain FMJ moving along at 1150 fps is much better than nothing. Any of y'all been experimenting with FMJ loads that don't exceed 1200 fps?

[WESHOOT2]

I've been working on a safe load that runs the 200g Hornady FMJ over 1200fps.

Not quite there............


"...slowly I turned...step by step, inch by inch..."

[Publicola]

200 grainers at 1200 fps out of a .40 S&W? That's what cor-bon pushes - in 10mm!

Like I said, y'all are much braver than I'll ever be.

Just out of curiousity, what kind of pistol are you riski - er, trying to work up this 10, er, .40 S&W load in? :cool:

[wingman]

safe load that runs the 200g Hornady FMJ over 1200fps.

Please kids don't try this at home.;)

[HSMITH]

My Nosler 135's at 1500 FPS are running LOWER pressures than Winchester White Box in the 165 FMJ or the 180 JHP, lower than UMC 180 FMJ's, lower than S&B 180 FMJ, lower than ANY factory loaded ammo I have tried. I KNOW this, I am not guessing. I have used the EXACT same cases for my loads after mapping the dimensions of the factory rounds before and after firing. I then map my loads before and after. My loads show less case expansion in EVERY single case and every measurement. My handloads are also much less prone to setback than factory ammo. Bottom line here is my 40 loads are safer than what you buy, even my "hotrod" loads.

Let's not assume since it wasn't our idea that the other guy is wrong or unsafe. There are some guys on here that know what they are doing, do it safely, and get performance that is very respectable. They are willing to do the testing and work, and through doing so have learned a LOT more about the subject than a loadbook commando ever will.

Iam not picking on anyone in particular here, I just get a little miffed that every reloading thread has someone pipe up and tell others how they are on the edge of blowing an arm and both ears off without knowing or asking what the circumstances of the load workup were. To speak without knowledge is to profess ones' own ignorance.

[Clark]

What is safe depends on what is unknown.
Some things about overloading are unknown to some and known to others.
Those, who can't imagine there is someone who knows more than they do, are often quick to judge someone else's hot loads as unsafe [fear and ignorance working together].

Someone with the knowledge of what it takes to blow up a gun should write a book.
I guess Ackley and Elmer Keith did that.
Maybe someone should write another book.
But what if those quick to call something unsafe don't read books?
We may have to start ignoring some comments.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

[Publicola]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but measuring case expansion is not a sure indicator of pressure. Not even muzzle velocity is. The only way to be sure is to use a strain gauge & those are few & far between.

But I'm willing to listen. Here are the factors that led me to believe these particular loads are not within safe pressure limits:

Specifically the 135 grain load at 1500 fps is about 200 fps over the published max velocity for the hottest recipes I've seen. Hell, it's the same velocity as the hottest 10mm load I've seen for that bullet weight.

The hottest recipe I can find for the .40 S&W lists a 135 grain projectile moving along at 1350 fps from a 4" barrel. The list the chamber pressure as 33,600 psi. The SAAMI max pressure is 35,000 psi. That is 1,400 psi below max, but unless I'm mistaken you'll exceed that before you get to 1400 fps with that particular recipe.

The pistol mentioned was a Glock with a standard barrel. Now perhaps personal prejudice enters this a little as I'm no Glock fan, but the fact remains that Glocks have unsupported chambers. This makes any load near max risky in them, unless you don't mind case ruptures.

In short I'm going on what was mentioned. Higher velocity than the max loads I have seen for the .40 being sent through a barrel with an unsupported chamber. I don't accept that case measurements, estimated recoil, etc... are accurate indicators of chamber pressure.

But like I said I am willing to listen so if anyone wishes to tell me how these loads are actually safe (especially in a Glock with the factory barrel) despite the points I mentioned, or if anyone has taken an actual pressure reading with these loads that demonstrates they are under 35,000 psi, then I'll gladly join the party.

[HSMITH]

Hodgdon Longshot. Look up the data. 135 at 1500 all day every day at safe pressures. You won't find it in a factory loading becuase recoil is sharp, blast is sharp and they simply are beyond the comfort level of most shooters. We are talking 675 lb/ft of energy here, they are sharp.

Case expansion IS a good indicator of pressure. What it does not give us is a value. We assume since the factories all have the pressure measuring equipment and all follow SAAMI standards that the ammunition we buy from them is standard pressure or less. We can measure cases and get hard data on case expansion in that particular case at standard or lower pressures. When my reloads in the exact same cases cause less case expansion it is reasonable to assume that peak pressures are lower than factory pressures were. Unless you have some reason to think that Winchester and Remington and the others are providing unsafe ammunition how you not reasonably assume that loads that cause less case expansion are operating at a lower peak pressure?

[Publicola]

You are correct. Longshot does list a 1480 fps load as being within safe pressures. Might have to give that a try myself. How does Longshot burn? Is it clean or on the dirty side?

However, measuring cases, inspecting fired primers, etc... is not a reliable enough indicator of high pressure. A number of factors are at work with chamber pressure & at times a case will not show those signs you look for of higher than safe pressure. Other times it will show those signs when you are under the maximum pressure. Factors such as the age & quality of the brass, the dimensions of the chamber, the sizing process & how it works the case, the burn rate & pressure peak of that particular powder, etc... all can give false positive & negative readings, especially when compared to factory ammo where you don't know the powder or charge weight. More or less the only way to be sure is to use a pressure gauge of some sort. But barring turning your pistol into a pressure barrel, most people assume if they stay at or under max loads they'll be okay. & for the most part this works out. But to assume that case measuring is an absolute method of determining your within safe pressure limits is not a good idea.

But that aside there's still the issue of using an unsupported barrel.

"WARNING: This data is intended for use in
firearms with barrels which fully support the
cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in
firearms which do not fully support the cartridge
may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case
head separation, or other condition which may
result in damage to the firearm and/or result in
injury or death of the shooter and/or bystanders."

That's straight from the Hodgdon manual. You'll find similar warnings in most other manuals that list recipes for the .40 S&W. So I still contend that in an unsupported chamber, such as a stock Glock has, that load is not the safet in the world. Then again I don't trust Glocks with anything over a mid power factory load & then only with new brass. Like I said I'm a bit biased against them, but with reason.

ut I do appreciate the info on Longshot. Like I said I might have to look into that one myself.

[wingman]

In all honesty I cannot see the reason to push a "tool" to the edge, because
of useful life, safety factor, doesn't make sense. Want a bigger noise/bang, buy
a bigger caliber.:banghead:

[HSMITH]

Longshot meters very well and burns VERY clean. You have never loaded big medicine and had cleanliness anywhere near what Longshot will give you.

Your bias against Glocks is duly noted and henceforth ignored. I have no problem with them and actually like them quite a bit.

Wingman, this is no more "the edge" than most factory ammo and certainly less than some factory ammo.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

..measuring case expansion is not a sure indicator of pressure. Not even muzzle velocity is. The only way to be sure is to use a strain gauge & those are few & far between.

This reminds me of "Plato's Allegory of the Cave".

Is the case expanding the reality or is the pressure the reality?
And which is an indirect indicator that adds error?

If the real limit is the barrel bursting*, I would think the pressure is, but if the limit is the primer falling out in a supported barrel, then I would think the case expansion is the reality.


* Of my testing of 15 semi auto pistols I have incrementally overloaded to see what happens, only one, the CZ52 has the pistol fail before the brass.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

[FireInTheHole]

Wow my little thread has grown.

Ok here is the deal:

LongShot does not meter perfectly. It is much better than 800x but still nowhere near as well as ball powder.

I burns pretty clean. (<dirty than unique)

Glock barrels:
I think that nearly new once fired brass is sturdy enough for a few max pressure loadings. This is a controversal topic I dont want to discuss in this thread... (go to glocktalk.com and read all about it)

Out of time now. Night folks.
-FITH

[Zero]

That they didn't try and run you out of town for posting loads that are not at the low end of the spectrum.

[WESHOOT2]

My personal test platform is an EAA Witness 'Standard' using a fit-by-me factory match barrel.
It is as supported as one can get in a 'factory' edition.
It is accurate in the extreme.
It ain't broke yet.

I do NOT recommend casual experimentation in the "Screw SAAMI' realm, as danger lurks everywhere, just waiting for the LEAST little excuse to blow yer gasket; know what I mean?

BTW, as I can choose who will shoot my 200g/1200fps load, I am NOT worried about disaster striking them.
Oh, and I'm still not there............... :banghead:

[FireInTheHole]

FOLLOWING IS LOAD DATA THAT HAS NOT BE PRESSURE TESTED FOR SAFETY! THESE LOADS DID NOT BLOW UP MY GUN BUT MIGHT YOURS. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Following is a series of tests I ran today using mag primers and reduced 135gr 800x loads (10.5gr is max book) with standard primers purely for comparison. Same conditions as my original .40 tests:

8.0gr 800x Winchester Small Magnum Primer(WSMP) 1.130" OAL:
1141fps
1161fps
1131fps
1199fps
1131fps
Average: 1153fps

8.5gr 800x WSMP 1.130" OAL:
1164
error
1232
1196
1198
Avg: 1198fps

9.0gr 800x WSMP 1.130" OAL:
1272
1311
1266
1274
error
Avg: 1281fps

9.0gr 800x winchester standard pistol (WSP), Control Load #1 1.130" OAL:
1255
1258
error
1253
1271
Avg: 1259fps

9.5 800x WSMP 1.130" OAL:
1318
1381
1335
1372
1389
Avg: 1359fps

9.5gr 800x WSP Control Load #2 1.130" OAL
1241
1272
1254
1231
1271
Avg: 1254fps

Observations: Readings taken at dusk conditions were not ideal as I didnt bring my light kit:cuss: ... significantly less unburnt powder exited barrel on magnum loads. Flash was also lessened(although less than I had hoped for). Surprising results when I moving from 9 to 9.5 grains with the WSP.(decrease!) I may have to make another batch for a second test.

Overall, the greatest velocity increase occured at 9.5gr... makes me wonder how much faster a mag primer would push a 10.5gr 800x(book max...24kpsi) loading. Adding a mag primer and reducing the max by 1.0gr I have nearly reproduced what I would assume 10gr would produce... I wont be testing any larger charges however. (any brave[r] souls out there?)

Mag primers DO increase pressures along with velocites. Any powder faster than 800x/longshot/bluedot might be exceedingly dangerous when used in a small capacity case with a mag primer however.

[Lennyjoe]

Oh boy, I have alot to learn about reloading.

What am I getting myself into?

[FireInTheHole]

A great hobby. It only gets better as you gain more experience.

I began loading extremely conservative target loads 4 years ago for 9mm. (hehe I was underage so it was the only way I could shoot)

I dont claim to be an expert, but once I finish school I may actually look for work in the powder/ammunition industry. (ah.... I can dream right? :))

[Clark]

It is like mountain climbing:
1) It can be easy like climbing stairs while holding the handrail [analogous to following the instruction and using the loads in a load book]
2) Or it can be very hard like pioneering a new route up a mountain [analogous to developing your own loads]
3) Or it can be revolutionary and make your own technique like Reinhold Messner and receive criticism for being crazy and dangerous, but eventually your genius will be acknowledged [analogous to Ackley or Elmer Keith blowing up guns]

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

[Steve Smith]

Lennyjoe, what you need to learn is that these guys, and especially Clark, are pushing the envelope for the sake of pushing it. You don't need to do this, and you are wll advised NOT TO. Please stick with standard loads, and if you NEED MORE POWER, CHANGE CALIBERS!!!!


Clark, I am tiring of your "I can do so-and-so with my rigged up gun" posts. You know you press your guns to the mechanical limits. Fine. You can press guns to the point that recoil becomes "SEVERE" even in the .40 S&W caliber. FINE. You have blown up countless guns out of curiousity. FINE

However, I don't find a bit of BENEFIT from what you do...at least here. You catch people's eyes with your posts and often by those who are much less experienced. Maybe that is what you are after and that's how you get your jollies, but what you do is #1 UNSAFE (you accept the danger of course) and #2 IRRESPONSIBLE because you bring it here. Whether there is a disclaimer above your posts or not, you certainly get attention from those who say "if he can do it, why can't I?"


Have you attempted to run your hot loads for 20 or 30K rounds and determine what parts fail first? Someone will.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Steve,
I am sorry you are getting tire of my posts.
I put some effort into trying to fit in at the high road and make my point of view less objectionable.
I have not blown up a gun in years.
My father, the guy who designed the M107, M110, M158, and a number of guns for the military that never went past the "X" for experiential designation, showed me how to calculate stress in steel. He and I both have EE degrees from the UW.
Back in the late 1940's, my father was pulling a trigger string on dangerous guns.
I found myself pulling trigger strings pistols in the mid 1990's.
Based on my experiments and calculations, I now think I know what caused guns to blow up and which ones will do it with what loads.

I have not done any metal fatigue tests that resulted in metal fatigue from shooting lots of rounds. I have tried with a 38 special shooting 30% over the max 357 mag loads, and after ~100 rounds, I decided the nerves and joints were going to wear out in my hand first. I can tell you that there is no safe repetitive load for Aluminum, but there is for steel. There is no way to predict the limit because of so many variables like surface finish and shape. The result is that every design is designed to be strong enough, but must be tested to find out the number of repetitions to failure. If, as in the example, the number is in the millions, one is not likely to fire a gun that many times.
In the picture that someone made for me, the ultimate strength is what it takes to break.
The yield is where the steel changes dimensions and will not spring back when the stress is removed.
The fatigue limit is the point were repetitions have caused the steel to fail.
For Aluminum, the fatigue limit is zero.
For steel it varies widely depending on alloy, heat treat, surface finish, shape, temperature, and probably some other variables.
The problem of shape affecting the limit means that no one knows what will happen until the shape is tested. It is best to use many samples tested to failure.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.



http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=705500

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

[Steve Smith]

Not once did you address my issues with your post. Instead, you say you're a EE and your dad was too. First of all, intelligence doesn't flow by osmosis, so the mention of your dad has no bearing on this matter. Secondly, I am working on my EE right now and I know that having that degree doesn't equip you with the skills to calculate the stresses placed on a paper cup by the water inside, much less those that are placed upon a firearm during firing! It doesn't matter. The point is, what you are doing here at THR is unhelpful and irresponsible...no matter how many irrelevant degrees you have.

[Clark]

Steve,
Sorry if I am so irritating.
I am trying not to be.
In calculating stress in the steel in guns, I calculate the tension, sheer, and compression, that was straight forward. What my father showed me was:
1) The bending of breech faces in an "L" shape involves taking a section modules of cross sections down through the breech.
2) There is the stress on the brass around the primer pocket is in compression from the rearward push on the brass from inside the brass chamber, and the tension stress from the pressure outward inside the primer pocket. That combination of tension and pressure at 90 degrees sums in a non linear way.
3) The pin that joins the barrel to the receiver in a Handi Rifle goes through holes on either side of the lug on the barrel. That makes the pin "in double sheer" and needs to be sheered off in two places at once to fail. That had not occurred to me either in my first attempt to analyze the strength of my 45/70 handi rifle.


A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

[Steve Smith]

You're still not getting the point. I give up.

[Johnny Guest]

It is unavoidable that there will sometimes be a difference of opinion as to the ultimate usefulness of publishing purely experimental information in a general purpose board.

Some of the participants on this forum are interested in nothing other than good, solid, performance in the normal-to-moderately warm ranges. I kinda fall into this category. At the same time, that are those who wonder, "Just what is possible?" This is asked without regard to the pure utility of the particular load.

Clark freely admits that some of his, uh, *ahem*, more ambitious loads are downright unpleasant to shoot in some (ANY??) firearms. He's interested in expanding the envelope. At the same time, Clark has agreed to adopt the rules of this forum, and to post the required cautionary notes in Bold face print. This puts people on notice that these are NOT run of the mill, everyday loads.

Steve Smith, and perhaps others, find it distressing that information is offered about certain experiment which FAR exceeds recommendations of the ammo companies and the component manufacturers. They are equally free to offer their concerns up for examination and discussion. So long as the viewpoints are submitted in an atmosphere of idea exchange, all are welcome in this forum.

I, for one, have little personal use for most of this more arcane knowledge - - As stated above, I'm content with load levels within, or at least near standard pressure levels. On the other hand, I long ago began using some loads, particularly in .44 Special, which far exceed currently accepted maximums. It is nice to know that some loaders have been not only above what I have done, but far, FAR above that level.

When I load those especially stout charges of Unique or 2400 beneath 240 -- 250 cast bullets, I accept the risk that I am reducing the useful life of the lock work of a good revolver. I accept this with eyes wide open. In recent years, I have backed off some of my formerly used more VIGOROUS loads, realizing that the very top-end gains are scant, compared to the possible damage to my equipment. Not that my Colt New Service will "grenade" on me for that last 1/2 to 3/4 grain of Unique, but I kinda like the old revolver, and want to keep it in good shape for a long time.

There's room for all kindsa folks, and many different attitudes, in handloading. :p

Best,
Johnny

[only1asterisk]

Clark,
As someone that swims the uncharted waters of handloading, I have learned much from people that have pushed the envelope. I will have to side with SeanSmith in this case. TheHighRoad is a place that has a disproportionate number of newly minted handloaders. The chance that they will emulate you without heeding your warnings outways any possible benefit that I can forsee. I would guess that some of your loadings would come pretty close to proof loads. I am not suprised that your guns don't explode, but you have no safety margin. If someone were to duplicate your loads and feed them to my pistol, any number of minute changes may cause pressures to increase to the point of case head failure or worse.

Sharing data is what allows those us with oddball guns to load for them. I know that nobody here wants to hurt anyone, but that is a not unreasonable possibility.

Longshot is a great powder for 45 +P, 40S&W, and other capacity pistol round and useful for loading almost any handgun. I hope more people will develop good data for it.


David

[Steve Smith]

My name isn't Sean!

[HSMITH]

I am not picking on anyone in particular here, I am just upset with what I see as a trend lately in this forum.

We are only responsible for OUR OWN conduct, not the conduct of anyone else. If someone chooses to replicate an experiment without having the experience or knowledge to do so safely and refuses to heed the warnings that are posted everywhere they turn then THEY DESERVE WHAT THEY GET!!!!! This socialistic desire to "protect" the poor innocent newbie handloader is ridiculous. The world is full of information, what you do with that information is a choice you make. To hold someone else responsible for your poor judgement is insane.

I have learned from what Clark does and what he posts. I have not blown myself up because I read his posts nor will I do so soon. If you choose not to learn anything or feel that there is nothing to learn then move on.

We have had a couple guys proclaim that some loads are "overloads" without ever doing any of the research, any of the testing, or learning anything about the loads in question. THAT is what we need to be pouncing on, the last thing we need are some internet mommies telling us what we can and cannot post or being abusive toward others because it is not what THEY THINK is safe regardless of the situation or circumstances. Until someone can explain what makes them qualified to make sweeping proclamations that what others are doing is harmful to others they need to pipe down. Sheesh, when these guys tell the world that the ballistics labs of a major powder company are stupid and unsafe the only positive thing is that there is no longer a need to hand them their "sign", "here's your sign boy!". It is nice that they pick it up and put it on for the world to see all by themselves.

Maybe we can get the thread title changed to "power whining and ranting". I apologize if I have offended anyone, and don't mean to pick on anyone specifically. I am just tired of the trend I have been noticing in the reloading area.

[Johnny Guest]

ENOUGH, now!

Anyone unclear about forum policy on posting heavier-than-published data, please read the floats at the top of this forum.

If you can play by those rules, post pretty much anything that is legal. It doesn't even have to be particularly rational.

I think it is right and proper that members look out for one another. Kinda sweet, actually. But, telling others what to do and not do, and being bossy about it - - This is not the High Road way, friends.

Let's not be offended by honest concern. By the same token, let's don't get TOO instructive with one another.

Let's be clear here: This is a technical forum. It is NOT for demonstrating who has the highest levels of certain glandular secretions. It is NOT for feuding. Swap all the information you wish, WITHIN THE RULES. Any name calling or abusive behavior, posts will begin disappearing.

Let's play nice together, y'hear? ;)

Johnny Guest
H&R Forum Moderator

[FireInTheHole]

Well, personally I think that the DANGER warnings are enough. Censoring information ought to not be a choice. Honest to god discourse is the only way to refine technique and further the practice.

Clark: Your tests are interesting and in many ways even beneficial for those of us developing new loads.

Unfortunately, I have noted that you sometimes like to troll your data in an attempt to stir things up. This behavior is, IMHO, detrimental to other reloaders who like to 'push the envelope'.

There is no prestige in appearing like a Nutcase With A Deathwish.

Please don't take the above as a flame, but rather as form of constructive criticism.


(can we get this thread back on topic now??????????)

*cough*
The next phase of longshot/800x testing will be with 155gr golddot and 150gr nosler bullets. I hope to get 1350fps from the 155gr GD. It's a shame that premium manstopping bullets are not yet available in the 135gr weight.

155gr will just have to do. :)

I'm also still trying to find a local supply of VihtaVuori n105 to test their claim of 1150fps 200gr from a .40s&w, but we shall see.
-FITH

[Lennyjoe]

Trust me, as a newbie in the reloading forum, I have no desire to load beyond safe limits. If I have the desire to do so then I will buy a 10MM instead of overloading a .40 cal.

I might work different loads in say 30-06 or 44 mag. Even in these calibers it will still be in the published loading data.

But the .40 cal just isnt one cartridge that I would fool around with. Thats just my opinion.

[Grump]

We can measure cases and get hard data on case expansion in that particular case at standard or lower pressures.

I thank you for the data, and take it with all appropriate disclaimers. There is, however, a variable you've forgotten. The cases you are loading are once-fired. The ones you are comparing to are nonce-fired. So...do the same, but put dismounted factory components into once-fired and normally-sized cases (including the primers), AND put your reload components (including primers) into nonce-fired factory brass that is neck-sized only down to the seating depth of the bullets.

Sample size--recommended at 30 rounds each. 20 might do it. 10 will be less reliable. All should be evaluated by the T-test, unless the stats guys have cooked up something better (a little help, here, you scientific types?!?!?)

If there is no measureable difference, I will not just tend to believe it, but accept it. . .at least for your gun, with all appropriate disclaimers. Get someone else to replicate it with a different gun, same barrel length, and I'll endorse it as strong evidence. Do it with a properly calibrated strain gage and I'll write your disclaimers and release forms and help you sell the data.

[HSMITH]

Good point Grump. I think the quote is from my post so I will respond.......

Hopefully you know the data in question is published data from Hodgdon, has been unchanged for 2 years and maybe 3 but I did not look at the '00 guide....

I would be happy to do the testing but I don't have ANY more standard factory ammo left other than Cor-Bon 135's and don't plan on buying any. I DO have 100 of the Nosler 135's to load right now, AND a brand new 4 pound can of Longshot. Frankly I think we are smoothing out frosting that no one saw a ripple in but I do understand your point and recognize the value that could be drawn from the testing.

If you would trust me to do the testing then maybe we can get a couple guys to send me 10 rounds of various factory loads, I will shoot and measure 5 and pull and reload the cases of the other 5 with a FULL 12 grains of Longshot and the 135 grain Nolser for measurement.

I have the capability to measure to .0001" with dead nuts repeatability here, but .0005" calipers would be PLENTY accurate.

If you feel someone else, you perhaps, will be a better selection to do the testing please speak up. It will not bother me in the least. I will volunteer to send them 30 of the 135's to load in the test. If you want the bullets and agree to post the results of the testing PM me your shipping address. I will get them out to you in a hurry. If you have a chronograph maybe you should do the testing. I am currently without a chrony and don't plan on getting another in the near future. No, I didn't shoot the old one, would have been better but another story....

What do you think guys?

[only1asterisk]

My apologies Mr. Steve Smith! I really should take more care.

David

[Steve Smith]

I won't rant any more...but I had to post to say I wasn't wanting to censor anyone. Those of you who know me know that I believe in taking full advantage of the 1st ammendment, in height, breadth, length, and time.

[kidcoltoutlaw]

have you tried any 180's.how much of a gain do you get with a long barrel and the 40 s&w.say a 4 vs a 5 inch . i have pushed a 357 mag to 1775 in a coonan with a 125 had to use small rifle primers in the second barrel the first one i did not,thanks,keith

[kidcoltoutlaw]

have you ever used the p229 in a hot load test.just wondering.i do some hot stuff from time to time.email me any info you can about the 800x you can even leave out the real hot loads.i think it need a short col or a full case to work but just a thought don't know for sure,thanks,keith

[WESHOOT2]

40 S&W = don't discount 3N37 (mebbe 3N38, too, but I can't yet say), and maybe a few others......but be very very careful.

You go, Clark!

[Clark]

Keith,
No I don't have P229, and I have not shot one for many years.

I do know that the 40 S&W has more power potential than the longer 10mm.
The 40 has a small primer pocket, and so more brass surrounding it.
I could launch into a boring calculation of stress in the brass, but the gist is, the 40 is a good cartridge, the pistols and people are the problem.

I have never split a 40 sw chamber, but the hoop stress is quite high with some thin chamber walls. What I do know is a problem is feed ramp intrusion. This unsupported brass case wall, on the bottom rear of the chamber, is all that is holding back the pressure in many pistols. They make the feed ramp deep and wide so any ammo with any recoil spring is less likely to jam. If it blows up, they likely blame the ammo, not the barrel.

What can the average guy do?
1) With dial calipers he can measure the thickness of the chamber wall.
.100" of more is very good.
Below .050" is CZ52 roller channel country.
2) Put a case in the barrel. Trace the outline of the feed ramp on the case with a needle. Cross section another piece of brass. The 40 web is .180" thick. Some feed ramp lines will be as much as .235" from the rear of the case. That is not good. Look for an after market barrel.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

[Gary H]

I don't have a problem with experienced reloader going to the edge, but other than seeing how high you can climb, why do you need to push the limits? Why not just find an appropriate vehicle for your needs? What do folks do with these powerful loads? If I'm hiking in bear country I carry my .480 Ruger and when I want to just do some inexpensive plinking I use a .22lr. I understand looking for a given power level, with less flash or recoil. I understand finding loads that shoot with greater accuracy, although in my hands it doesn't amount to much.

[Grump]

Gary, the very point behind Clark's destructive testing (affectinately called "DT" by experts who get paid more per hour than many lawyers) is to see not only how far up you get failures, but also WHAT fails first and how.

I've known for years from reading the old Phil Sharpe books that the case is the limiting factor for smokeless powder loading. A strong action will hold gas above 75-90+K PSI/CUP only if it supports the brass well enough to keep that alloy in all cracks like plumber's putty around your kitchen sink. I have some range pickup Federal rifle brass that is unusable because the primer pockets are loose. They were fired in a tight chambered bolt gun at about 115 degrees F, and might have been hot reloads anyway (they *looked* once-fired...). Seated primers back out of about 3 percent of the cases, which were identified by low-resistance primer seating.

With that, I have a great deal of confidence in the extra safety margin on the Rem 700 action these were fired in. Unsafe loads, by the commonly-accepted standards, won't blow the action for a few hundred repetitions, but they will ruin the brass.

Can't say the same about standard .45 Gov't models. Can say it for .38 Specials from S&W. So, I worry a lot more when developing loads for certain guns, thanks to Clark informing us that some powders in .40 S&W will cause severe brass stress with loads only 30% over book max.

In general, the steel guns won't blow but the cases will.

[Gary H]

I can certainly understand the testing with thoughts of creating a better mousetrap. Perhaps a .40 sized cartridge with greater strength, or a safe powder for full power loads..etc. It is also true that many hobbies have person's that love being at the edge... pushing the envelope.

[kidcoltoutlaw]

gun or guns as the case may be im thinking the S&W 610.right or wrong you use to hear about how weak the smith is and how strong the ruger is, is that still the case or is the 610 strong,thanks,keith

[Jwar88]

A Zen like question for the group to meditate on...

If a wolf is shot in the forest... and no one is there to hear it...Is there a sound?

And further....

Can the wolf tell the difference between a 180 HP travelling at 1050 fps vs 1000 fps... or even 950 or 900 fps?

Think on it Grasshopper...

If you believe there is... then you must never shoot game beyond very strict distance parameters... within about 20 yards or so, and never shoot if the outside temperature is lower than 72 degrees! That 180gr bullet travelling at 1050fps at the muzzle will only be travelling at around 1000fps within 25 yards, 900 within 50 yards, and that same load will start out 100-150 fps slower at the muzzle if you shoot at 20 degrees Fahrenheit or below.

If the wolf CAN tell the difference... then you have run into a Wolf that is way smarter than you... and you are already DEAD MEAT !!!


See what I am getting at here...?

Bullet performance is more a function of SHOT PLACEMENT ... bullet construction and bullet weight in that order...

For defence against unknown and various size threats, (ie... man to moose in your case...) moderate loadings of a reasonably substantial bullet weight is the best you can do.

You can optimize a load for one type of target..man or beast... but not for both at the same time.

So... My main concern is always to achieve 100% functional reliability in the weapon I am literally staking my life on.

I would always...DEFINITELY choose a loading a few fps slower if I could save 6000psi in chamber pressure...absolutely!

Best thing you can do with a handgun after you make damn sure it goes BANG every time, is put a big deep hole in one side and out the other. T/C bullets are about as good as HP or semi-wadcutters in real life performance on game, in my experience, and they penetrate deeper and feed better. The only real underachievers are Round Noses... (except for .45 hardball of course!)

IMHO - 800x is the best powder for top velocity loads is 40s&w, if you don't mind weighing charges, a lot of lot to lot variation, and temperature sensitivity. Power Pistol and Longshot eliminate some of the temperature sensitivity, measure much better, and don't really give up that much velocity ...except at the top end... like Clark sez.

If I am feeling particularly indecisive, and I often am, I load my 40 or my 10 mags with alternating 180 gr FMJ T/C and Speer Gold Dots...both real good performers at this velocity level.

Don't load up a whole lot of ammo before you test a few loads in YOUR pistol...and btw...what pistol are you getting?

[Ultima-Ratio]

BTT for Clark or.......someone to post some new warm .40 s&w data preferably with 3n38 or?
So Many Powders and so little time! Thanks feller loaders!

[WESHOOT2]

May have to try a 'faster' powder under those 200's, 'cause I'm otherwise out of room.

Hmmm........


FWIW, I have no desire to shoot 200's @ 1200, but maybe somebody else does.....for good reasons, too.
I have bigger guns uh-huh.

[Ultima-Ratio]

Hello again, I clocked some more X-sperimentals yesterday.
The suprise (or not!) was the 200gn XTPs that were accurate from the G-23 and clocked an honest 1050 fps with 7.0gns of trusty ole 800x. This load also was on the light side of recoil compared with the Longshot loads.
I had no visable or measureable smilies with any of the loads tested, temp was a balmy 50degrees.
Since I'd not seen much work with Unique I tried 9.0gns with a Sierra 135gner that clocked 1360fps, again from a G-23..not bad compared to the same bullet with 11.5gns of Longshot which chronoed an honest 1500fps and feels like the gun is on the outer level of survival tho gain, no case expansion. The test load of 135s with 10.1gns of Longshot clocked 1350fps and were comfy to shoot.
ALL normal warnings apply, my gun and experiences only
New Winchester brass with Fed Small Pistol primers and OAL around 1.130
Just for grins I ran some Ka-Boom level loads through a Para .40 with a Nowlin full supported barrel, the .40 ain't all that weak running 165gn Gold Dots to 1575fps!!!!!!!!! Don't try that in your Glock!

[Mylhouse]

I really don't understand all this Clark bashing. While Steve Smith is a valuable poster sometimes, I have learned much more from Clark's posts. Not only that, but he is giving information that you can't find anywhere else. And he has been doing it for several years. Steve doesn't tell you anything that any experienced High Power couldn't already tell you.

On every occasion when Clark posts, there is always someone that has to bash the guy. All of you Clark detractors begin to sound like one of the following three:

1) Those whiny pacifists that rue, "Why do you NEED a gun?" Sounds alot like "Why, oh why do you NEED to exceed posted load data?!"

2) Those that said the world was flat. The king says it's flat. Everyone KNOWS it is flat. Good enough for me! MUST be true!

3) Charlie Brown's teacher. Wa. Wa-Wa-Waa Waaa Waaaah.....


JMO.....

[Ultima-Ratio]

Mornin Mylhouse!
I too have had a few problems with Clarks enormous data dumps online BUT it's always been worth the reading time!
If only with all that data was accompanied with chronograph readings, some powders do not give more velocity when compressed and actually drop off velocity.

[SDGlock23]

Bump

I've been so curious about these loads for a very long time now. Any new news??

[Peter M. Eick]

Just a comment on longshot.

It DOES NOT like to be loaded light or with a wimpy crimp. Going light with this powder is a recipe for a squib. Try to stay toward the middle to top of the published load recipes.

[SDGlock23]

Think a 200 gr. @ ~1100 fps is possible from a 4"??

[kidcoltoutlaw]

If you do it let me know how you did it. I like the sound of it. I can get 1200 with a 180.

[SDGlock23]

I sure will, but that 180 @1200 sounds awfully nice too!

[kidcoltoutlaw]

max load and the primer that gives the best velocity. For me it was federal. The mag primers gave a big velocity drop.