When to carry, and when not to carry


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Vector
November 16, 2010, 01:47 PM
Several months ago I participated in the thread regarding carrying during ones wedding. It seemed odd to me unless the groom needed to be able to shoot his way out if he got cold feet. ;)

In all seriousness, several posters made it sound like they carried every minute of every day. So I threw out a few situations where they couldn't or wouldn't due to practicality, or it being prohibited. Some of the responses seemed a little :eek:, but I dropped the subject so as to not derail the threads theme. Now that it has popped back up, I decided to start a thread about when to carry, and when not to.

I'll start the discussion off by bringing up several examples where it would be against the law, or impractical. If you disagree, let me know why and how you would deal with such a scenario.

So for those who feel compelled to carry at all times, what do you do when you go to places like the beach?

What about at the birth of your child in a hospital for instance?

BTW - Someone asked if I carry, and the answer is yes. However I do not carry all the time, and typically assess the likelihood of needing to be armed before I choose which weapon(if any) to take with me.

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Mags
November 16, 2010, 01:51 PM
What about at the birth of your child in a hospital for instance?


That one is coming up soon for me. As most hospitals are the one we are going to is downtown and not in the best locatiion. Unusual as it may be this hospital is not posted and i would not be violating any laws by carrying.

Here is the kicker I must be sanitized and wear scrubs to witness the birth of my son. I do not plan on packing because I don't want some overzealous doctor or nurse spotting my piece during sanitation and ask me to leave, thus causing me to miss the birth of my child. This particular hospital does provide a safe and I may utilize that to hold my gun after my walk into the building.

BTW in my state if asked to leave or if a location is posted I am considered trespassing and could have my CCW revoked on the spot by a LE officer.

SSN Vet
November 16, 2010, 02:03 PM
I don't usually carry at home, as I have Gun Vaults strategically located on two floors to provide rapid access if needed.

I don't carry at work because it's prohibited

I don't usaully keep my piece in the car while at work, because I drop my daughter at school on the way to and almost always drive straight home from.

I don't want to keep a piece stowed regularily in my car, as I think it's less than fully secure.

I try to carry the rest of the time.... but reality is, I don't get out much.

I keep the condition of my carry piece the same all the time. It's loaded with one in the pipe and the manual safety on, in it's holster. It goes from the Gun Vault to my belt and back. I've been considering keeping it in the car more often, and even fabricated a nice custom fitting foam insert for the center console of my car. But I find that the extra handling involved getting the piece to and from the car throws off the simple and uniform habit of handling that I have established. I've tried both a clip draw and a clip on holster in the past, but was dissatisfied with both. Shoulder carry may be a viable solution, where I could keep the empty holster on my person throuout the work day. So untill I figure something out, I'll not be armed M-F from 7-5:30 :(

Bullnettles
November 16, 2010, 02:10 PM
I carry everywhere I go besides bars or prohibited areas. If I'm ever on the news, I don't want to be the picture shown; I want to be the one talking to the reporter.

CoRoMo
November 16, 2010, 02:18 PM
what do you do when you go to places like the beach?
No beaches here, but regardless, I'd go armed.
What about at the birth of your child in a hospital for instance?
I carry. Two kids, and I was holding the wife's right leg during each delivery. There was a gun on my hip both times.

Any other question?

M-Cameron
November 16, 2010, 02:19 PM
i personally dont leave my house without my kevlar vest, at least 2 handguns, and a 6" tanto........if i think something serious might go down, i may sling my rifle over my back before i head out......i dont take any chances.

ByAnyMeans
November 16, 2010, 02:34 PM
I carry wherever I can legally, which is when I return to NY from PA. I do not carry based on assessing a perceived threat because If I believed there was anymore danger than normal I would not go at least not without a longarm. My handgun is for when the situation is normal and a sudden issue pops up.

I change my carry based on what I can carry. Anywhere from a Glock with 15 round mag and a spare when concealable to a Glock with a ten round. I can also go to a KT P3AT with spare to just the P3AT when home for the night.

Bubba613
November 16, 2010, 02:37 PM
If I'm out it's pretty much a guarantee I'm armed. I carry a cell phone all the time too. To me they're about the same.

CHEVELLE427
November 16, 2010, 02:37 PM
i carry any were it is legal to do so ;). and anytime I'm awake :cool:.
and sometimes when I'm napping ;)

i would Rather have it and not need it then to need it and not have it
all places like T-R-U i don't / wont shop there.

remember back about 10-15 years ago in Californian i think it was.
a lady was going to meet up with her mom and dad at a MC Donald's and there was a no guns allowed sign on the door, so she left her permitted to carry gun in her car.

a crazed man came in and killed 26 people it think it was. the woman that left her gun in the car got to watch her parents get murdered.

she just testified before congress a few years back about the right to carry .

now she wonders if she could have made a difference if she had not obeyed the no gun sign.

here in FL no guns in
places that sell alcohol for consumption on premises
government buildings
post office
hospital's
1000 feet from any school not ,even on private property unless the owner says its OK. this means not even across the street off school property.
or anyplace posted no weapons :barf:

Bullnettles
November 16, 2010, 02:40 PM
That sounds EXACTLY like the lady in Texas when the guy shot up Luby's :(. I wish reason won out when people's lives are at stake.

jon86
November 16, 2010, 02:48 PM
I used to live in Florida. I don't always go to the beach to swim. Sometimes I go just to take a walk with the wife. Sometimes I go to do some running. Sometimes I go at night with the wife. If I'm not at the beach to tan and get in the water, then I'm packin. I carried at my wedding. I've carried at other people's weddings. What's the big deal? You do put your seatbelt on every time you get in the car right? Or just when you get on the interstate?

Ok, now I do not carry at the gym.

rozziboy18
November 16, 2010, 02:49 PM
hey vector,
i was the op on that post, i agree with you you cant carry everywhere.

i dont carry at:

beach- sand sucks
most resturants- unless they know me
banks- i forgot once
were prohibited

i do carry everywhere else i can, because it gives me piece of mind.

oh i also dont carry at gander mnt, on principle, due to there sign

Vector
November 16, 2010, 02:50 PM
No beaches here, but regardless, I'd go armed.

I carry. Two kids, and I was holding the wife's right leg during each delivery. There was a gun on my hip both times.

Any other question?

Yes, my first question would be why you felt the need to carry during the birth of your child? My guess would be that you did not deliver in a hospital as most if not all prohibit firearms. As another poster pointed out, he would not want to risk missing his child's birth because he was told to leave the hospital.

As far as the beach goes, maybe you are not picturing how you would carry in a swim suit. You certainly would not want to leave a loaded gun on the beach while you were swimming. For that matter, what do you do when you go to a water park?

CHEVELLE427
November 16, 2010, 02:55 PM
discreet carry this is in my pocket

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff103/CHEVELLE427/ALLPICONCAMERS.jpg

Mudinyeri
November 16, 2010, 02:55 PM
This reminds me of an old joke/question from when I was in the Army. What are the only two times you can be carrying too much ammo?

When you're swimming and when you're on fire.

Other than when it's not legal, why not carry? When would you not carry your wallet, car keys, cell phone ...?

Sam1911
November 16, 2010, 03:02 PM
So for those who feel compelled to carry at all times
Don't know if I feel "compelled" to, especially as I work in a non-carry state, but I do at all times when legal.

what do you do when you go to places like the beach?
I've carried off-body (in a backpack). Not optimal, but life is full of compromises, right?

What about at the birth of your child in a hospital for instance? I've never had attended a birth in a hospital (one in a birth center and two at home) but hospitals are not prohibited places here in PA, so I undoubtedly would. There have been some bad public shootings in hospitals. Wouldn't want to go unarmed there without a major need.

and typically assess the likelihood of needing to be armed before I choose which weapon(if any) to take with me.I wish I could tell when I would need to have a gun with me. It would make life so much more simple. Who knows, I might even just avoid going someplace if I knew I'd need the gun. Sort of the ultimate in situational awareness, right? Just check your calendar and see if you're scheduled to need your gun today. Tell you one thing, If my calendar ever does say that today I'm going to need a gun, I'm bringing a 12 ga! ;)

So often I see folks say, "why would I need a gun in a x,y,z" which place may or may not be a reasonably secure site. But that seems to ignore the logistics of leaving your home, traveling via vehicle, parking in a lot or parking garage, traveling via foot, etc, which all are vulnerable points not covered by your perception of safety when within that "x,y,z" location.

sig220mw
November 16, 2010, 03:04 PM
Concealed carry laws in Texas don't allow us to carry in hospitals.

Evidently some states do allow it.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 03:06 PM
Yes, my first question would be why you felt the need to carry during the birth of your child?

A few months ago, there was a shooting in one of the major hospitals here. A man who was angry with a percieved lack of care for his ailing mother pulled a pistol and shot the doctor point blank in the abdomen. The shooter then barricaded himself in his mother's room, where he executed her and then suicided.

My sister is a nurse at the area's largest trauma center. She works with the same type of patients every day. That doctor who was shot could very well have been her, or anyone else on the floor at the time that fella went ballistic.

So yeah, there's a need to carry in a hospital. Violence can and does happen anywhere, at any time. Being prepared to react and possibly save your life is not an unreasonable thing.

CoRoMo
November 16, 2010, 03:09 PM
Yes, my first question would be why you felt the need to carry during the birth of your child?
Same reason I'm carrying now. Same reason you do, when you do. Same reason I put on my seatbelt, same reason have fire extinguishers in my house, same reason I lock my doors, same reason I have a saving account, same reason I put my kids in child safety seats... (is this really that hard to understand?).
My guess would be that you did not deliver in a hospital as most if not all prohibit firearms.
You are bad at guessing. Both times at a hospital. It wouldn't matter if they prohibited firearms or not, their policy doesn't hold any legal water in Colorado. FWIW, the hospital did NOT prohibit carrying.
As far as the beach goes, maybe you are not picturing how you would carry in a swim suit.
Wearing a swim suit was not part of the original scenario. You asked about going to the beach. Now that we're onto a different question though, I never said I would be carrying, I said I'd be armed. See Sam1911's answer.
You certainly would not want to leave a loaded gun on the beach while you were swimming.
Why not? My wife is a very responsible person, and she can watch over it just fine.
For that matter, what do you do when you go to a water park?
No real difference from the beach. I go armed. Do these few and similar scenarios qualify as "several examples where it would be against the law, or impractical"?
I... assess the likelihood of needing to be armed before I choose...
I wish I could tell when I would need to have a gun with me.
Me too. Please rent this crystal ball to me. Please.

BP Hunter
November 16, 2010, 03:21 PM
I carry practically everywhere it is legal. I even carry at home. My wife used to make fun of me when she sees me tucking my gun in my IWB holster at home, then stopped when she got used to it. I ever carry at church. By WA State law, I can carry in the hospital unless it is a designated mental health facility. My 9 year old girl knows I carry whereever we go. She doesn't mind. My family has accepted totally my view of gun ownership and defense of family. No nos to banks, federal buildings (including post office parking area), mental health facilities, schools unless you are only dropping off your child, areas where liqour is served, and concerts.

X-Rap
November 16, 2010, 03:26 PM
With the small 380 pistols available there are few times I can think of that I am not armed at least with one of them. With fall now I can move up to a bigger gun. Unless its illegal I don't see the difference of church or the hospital and unless there is a metal detector who is going to know anyway.

docnyt
November 16, 2010, 03:31 PM
I don't understand the naïveté behind the OP's reasoning. Either you carry or you don't. The gun you train with is just a tool, and as many have pointed out, is just like remembering to bring your cellphone, carkeys, wallet, credit card, etc. You don't always need every single item, but what if you did?

To answer the OP's question, yes I did carry at my son's birth and the TV was showing "Top Shot" at the time. And yes, I usually bring a smaller BUG at the beach when an adult can stay and watch our stuff.

I'm sure that if you ask any civilian involved in a successful violent encounter whether they regret carrying at the time, you would know the answer.

oldbanjo
November 16, 2010, 03:32 PM
I carry all the time, always have, sense mid 60's. Don't take gun in Fed bldgs, Court Houses. Carry in Banks not in Hospitals or Doctors Office's. If there is no sign I carry.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 03:43 PM
My guess would be that you did not deliver in a hospital as most if not all prohibit firearms.


Look - you can assess a place to be "safe" all you want - that doesn't mean it is. Carrying a weapon, be it a knife, strong cane, gun, or otherwise is no different than carrying a cell phone with you - it's there in case of emergency. Hospitals deal with all manner of people, day in and day out. Not everyone gives a crap about silly things like "laws" that are supposed to keep them from being bad apples. Many of us understand this, and choose to arm ourselves in order to be prepared for worst-case scenarios.

Frank Ettin
November 16, 2010, 03:46 PM
I carry whenever I legally can. And I don't carry when I legally can't. That approach pretty much takes the guess work out of it.

I just don't want to be getting into the business of trying to decide whether or not I should carry or whether I might need a gun where I'm going. First off, if I think I might need a gun, I ain't going there. Second, I'd really hate it if I made a decision not to carry, even though I could have, and that turned out to be the one time in my life I really did need to have a gun.

So if it's legal for me, I carry. If it's not, I don't.

JellyJar
November 16, 2010, 03:51 PM
SSN VET

I have the pdf from handgunlaw.us and I see where you cannot carry on school property but unless it is posted or something it does not appear to be illegal to carry in hospitals. Am I wrong?

Also, CHEVELLE472. I think that holster of yours is now considered a dangerous device under NFA and is illegal. Perhaps you should check that out.

Galco used to make and sell a pocket holster for small semi-autos but the BATFE rulled that they were "dangerous devices" as per the NFA and are now illegal to use or pocess with a firearm in them.

Check out this search I did on the BATFE web site:

http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=holster&site=default_collection&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=atf&proxystylesheet=atf

Edit:SSN VET, I mean the Maine pdf.

Sam1911
November 16, 2010, 03:59 PM
Also, CHEVELLE472. I think that holster of yours is now considered a dangerous device under NFA and is illegal. Perhaps you should check that out.


You're thinking of the NFA Title II "Any Other Weapon" category that covers pen-guns, cane-guns, wallet-guns, and other things that don't look like firearms (along with some other types of firearms).

If you and Chevelle want to discuss this, please take it into another thread rather than hijack this one.
Update: Actually, if you check this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=546407) you'll find that this exact holster has been passed by the ATF as not an AOW becasue it doesn't cover the slide and/or hide the nature of the firearm.

So...back to our discussion...

Kleanbore
November 16, 2010, 04:00 PM
Posted by fiddletown: I carry whenever I legally can. And I don't carry when I legally can't. That approach pretty much takes the guess work out of it. Exactly.

I just don't want to be getting into the business of trying to decide whether or not I should carry or whether I might need a gun where I'm going.If I could do that with any certainty, I would try to transfer the prediction skills to investment strategy!

First off, if I think I might need a gun, I ain't going there.I made that decision the day I got my CCW endorsement.

Second, I'd really hate it if I made a decision not to carry, even though I could have, and that turned out to be the one time in my life I really did need to have a gun.My thoughts exactly.

So if it's legal for me, I carry. If it's not, I don't.I cannot see a better routine.

Vector
November 16, 2010, 04:07 PM
Same reason I'm carrying now. Same reason you do, when you do. Same reason I put on my seatbelt, same reason have fire extinguishers in my house, same reason I lock my doors, same reason I have a saving account, same reason I put my kids in child safety seats... (is this really that hard to understand?).

You are bad at guessing. Both times at a hospital. It wouldn't matter if they prohibited firearms or not, their policy doesn't hold any legal water in Colorado. FWIW, the hospital did NOT prohibit carrying.

Wearing a swim suit was not part of the original scenario. You asked about going to the beach. Now that we're onto a different question though, I never said I would be carrying, I said I'd be armed. See Sam1911's answer.

Why not? My wife is a very responsible person, and she can watch over it just fine.

No real difference from the beach. I go armed. Do these few and similar scenarios qualify as "several examples where it would be against the law, or impractical"?

Me too. Please rent this crystal ball to me. Please.

No personal offense, but I can now see that you are playing some games with some of your answers. For instance the comment about "your wife being responsible". My example was predicated on people going into the water, (otherwise the beach is like any other place) not having someone you could leave the gun with. I don't know too many people that go to the beach and have a gun holder to watch over it while you swim. Presumably in your take on the scenario, you would then watch the gun while your wife took a separate dip in the water.:rolleyes:
My point is/was very simple in that unless you want to chance getting your gun wet, you would have to be irresponsible by leaving it unattended while you were swimming, surfing, etc., or not carry.

As to the theme of illegal vs. legal carry, I am assuming that everyone here would abide by the law. So your comment about carrying regardless of a hospital restricting you to do so is a waste of time. You may not be arrested in your state, but you could be made to leave. To me, that would seem like a steep price to pay in a low risk scenario.


I will address other specific comments regarding my stance on when to carry based on a potential threat. However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others. So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto. You do not need a crystal ball to differentiate between the two.

DoubleTapDrew
November 16, 2010, 04:13 PM
I just peer into my crystal ball each morning to determine whether or not I'll need to fight for my life that day.

GojuBrian
November 16, 2010, 04:14 PM
Posted by fiddletown: I carry whenever I legally can. And I don't carry when I legally can't. That approach pretty much takes the guess work out of it.

Thread winner!!

As for the beach, I did not carry when I went there or thw waterpark.

As for the hospital. It's illegal to carry on hospital property here, that ends that.

I am not allowed to carry at work per their policy either.

Vector
November 16, 2010, 04:18 PM
i personally dont leave my house without my kevlar vest, at least 2 handguns, and a 6" tanto........if i think something serious might go down, i may sling my rifle over my back before i head out......i dont take any chances.

I don't know if you are saying that tongue in cheek, or you are serious.:confused:

Obviously I do not know what you do for a living, nor where you live, but it seems like you perceive that you are in constant danger. Personally I could not live like that unless there was no other choice economically.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 04:31 PM
To me, that would seem like a steep price to pay in a low risk scenario.

Please define "low risk".

However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others.

Once again, how is that obvious? I can provide instances of violence occurring in virtually any environment, regardless of it's percieved "safety". It only takes one time for a previously "safe" place to become a crime scene.

So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto.

Based on your opinion. As stated, crime can and does occur anywhere. People have been assaulted and killed in hospitals, schools, shopping malls, and myriad other public, "low risk" areas - just as they have been in crime-ridden ghettos.

Carrying a weapon in a "safe" area is exactly the same as carrying in an unsafe one - it is there if you need it. No more, no less.

Vector
November 16, 2010, 04:31 PM
I carry wherever I can legally, which is when I return to NY from PA. I do not carry based on assessing a perceived threat because If I believed there was anymore danger than normal I would not go at least not without a longarm. My handgun is for when the situation is normal and a sudden issue pops up.

I change my carry based on what I can carry. Anywhere from a Glock with 15 round mag and a spare when concealable to a Glock with a ten round. I can also go to a KT P3AT with spare to just the P3AT when home for the night.

On the one hand I agree with you about not going into dangerous situation if I can avoid it. However there are times you must travel through areas that are not as safe as where you live. Where I live, a longarm is not an option because you must carry concealed.
As to different guns for different scenarios, that is my thinking as well. Now I live in a very safe neighborhood, so if I am out walking my dog at night, I normally only carry an extendable baton for other dogs. I might carry a small 9mm figuring I might need it for a stray pit that could come along, but normally I do not.
If I have to go downtown I carry something with more firepower in case I break down or am forced to stop in the area. To me the level of the possible threat makes a big difference as to what I might carry.

Sam1911
November 16, 2010, 04:31 PM
My example was predicated on people going into the water, (otherwise the beach is like any other place) not having someone you could leave the gun with. I don't know too many people that go to the beach and have a gun holder to watch over it while you swim.
In my case, we go to the beach with our children, so there are no times when everyone is submerged. I can be with the bag and the littlest while my wife is in the water. Or she is with the bag while I and the oldest are in the water. If I'm wading with the little one(s), I can have the bag with me. Worst-case scenario seems to be the gun gets wet. I'd much rather strip down and clean a stainless firearm than try to get salt water out of my cell phone -- and I'm not leaving that up on the beach unattended either! It really isn't a semantic game -- it's reality.

If I was going to the beach alone and was going to swim completely submerged, or surf, or whatever -- I'd have to make the choice to carry a gun that could handle it (and that I could conceal in swim gear) or leave it locked elsewhere. Neither is particularly appealing, but as I said, life is full of compromises and I'm not much of a beach-goer.

You may not be arrested in your state, but you could be made to leave. To me, that would seem like a steep price to pay in a low risk scenario.But the risk of being asked to leave from some place if our gun is discovered is one that just about all of us live with every day. I don't consider a hospital (with all of its attendant emotion, and stress, and the highly interesting cross-section of society present therein at any given time) to be a "low risk" location.

However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are SEEM safer than others. Seem safer ... If you need to defend yourself, whatever place that need arises just became not a safe place to be. Again, none of us can tell ahead of time. Some places may attract far more than their fair share of trouble, but no place is devoid of it.

So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto.You said "going to a..." Where is your hospital located? Most aren't in a gated community with a roving security patrol. Many are in downright unpleasant areas with very high rates of violent crime just outside their doors. Perhaps it is not unreasonable to place your sidearm in a bag with your other personal effects next to you in the delivery room -- if you feel the need to have it off of your body during the proceedings, but I don't think it is a wise choice to venture outside to get the car without it. (And probably not to pass through the emergency receiving area either, based on various news reports.)

Mudinyeri
November 16, 2010, 04:35 PM
So, you don't have a SuperTuck in your Speedo, Sam? :)

Sam1911
November 16, 2010, 04:37 PM
So, you don't have a SuperTuck in your Speedo, Sam?

I can't even formulate a response! The mind wobbles...

Vector
November 16, 2010, 04:40 PM
Please define "low risk".





Real simple, statistics.

Regardless of the once in a blue moon example someone might post, I'd bet dollars to donuts the need for deadly force in maternity wards is next to nothing.
Now I guess if you live in urban blight and must use a public hospital to have your child delivered, the % might go up infinitesimally, but maternity wards are by and large safe places to be.

Steve_NEPhila
November 16, 2010, 04:42 PM
Quote: Vector
"I will address other specific comments regarding my stance on when to carry based on a potential threat. However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others. So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto. You do not need a crystal ball to differentiate between the two."

Your feeling of safety is entirely without data or consideration. My wife works in a large city hospital and the most dangerous part of the hospital is the maternity ward. (She had data to back it up) Apparently, there are big issues between women and often men (but mostly women) about who the father is, the color of the child, who is sleeping with who etcetera.

Vector, you are wrapping yourself into a baseless determination of what you think is safe. You do not know these places to be safe, you are assuming that they are. In fact, no place on this planet is so safe that one would never have to be concerned about their own safety. You are also attempting to condescend to other that do not share your world view, which I do not appreciate. Many of them may not understand what you are looking to achieve with this thread.

You are looking to assuage your own concerns by being able to label others as paranoid or unreasonable. After all, you decide what is safe and what is not. You want to be able to think that you are indeed taking the intellectual high road through your own flawed logic. You are wrong.

I carry everywhere I go, as long as it is not prohibited by law. Here in Pennsylvania that means I can carry in hospitals, banks, bars, supermarkets, public transit, sushi restaurants and anywhere else not prohibited. Why? Because everywhere I go I am responsible for my own safety and security. I am ultimately responsible for my safety, and thus I am responsible for it. In no situation can I delegate that responsibility to another with any type of warranty.

Where to carry is entirely up to you, and as an individual I support your right to make that choice. The decision to carry a firearm is highly personal. You have no right to judge the decisions of others concerning when and how they carry, it is their business.

I take great issue with the flawed logic of "sometimes carry" based on the presumption of risk. As many have stated before, why go where it is perceived to be risky to life and limb. That is the rub, we never know where we will face life and death or when. How many people think on a daily basis that the school they are teaching or studying in will be the location of the next mass murder spree? None of us know. To be trained and proficient with a firearm and not have one (let alone needing one at a certain point) is a tremendous waste of an ability. If you do not carry all of the time you are at risk for the rarity of violent crime... that is your risk. (Having a firearm will not assure complete success in any violent situation, but it helps)

Diggers
November 16, 2010, 04:43 PM
I personally will not carry a gun if I have to leave it in my car. I just don't think it is responsible to do so. Cars are too easily broken into to leave a gun in there and have it end up on the street.

So yeah, no gun while surfing, running etc.

Yes M-Cameron was joking. :) Of course, anyone walking around like would be talked to by the police in an instant.

Anyhow this thread is still a couple notches down from the one a while back on "How to carry in the shower"

And yes they were totally serious. :rolleyes:

( I think the idea of using a type of plastic bag with a hanger on it to hang the gun on the shower head won out. :p )

Flintknapper
November 16, 2010, 04:45 PM
sig220mw wrote:

Concealed carry laws in Texas don't allow us to carry in hospitals.

Incorrect, unless you are talking about a psychiatric hospital or a hospital somehow connected with a school.

Otherwise, hospitals in Texas (and churches BTW) must be posted with the 30.06 Statute in order to legally forbid "carry".

Vector
November 16, 2010, 04:47 PM
But the risk of being asked to leave from some place if our gun is discovered is one that just about all of us live with every day. I don't consider a hospital (with all of its attendant emotion, and stress, and the highly interesting cross-section of society present therein at any given time) to be a "low risk" location.

Seem safer ... If you need to defend yourself, whatever place that need arises
You said "going to a..." Where is your hospital located? Most aren't in a gated community with a roving security patrol. Many are in downright unpleasant areas with very high rates of violent crime just outside their doors. Perhaps it is not unreasonable to place your sidearm in a bag with your other personal effects next to you in the delivery room -- if you feel the need to have it off of your body during the proceedings, but I don't think it is a wise choice to venture outside to get the car without it. (And probably not to pass through the emergency receiving area either, based on various news reports.)

I just spoke about urban vs. private hospitals in my last post. However even in a public hospital, the maternity ward is not a likely place you would need to use deadly force to protect yourself.

As to be asked to leave, I should not have assumed you read the earlier post. If you are there to see your kid being born, why risk being forced to leave and missing the one time blessed event?

luigi
November 16, 2010, 04:50 PM
I carry. Two kids, and I was holding the wife's right leg during each delivery. There was a gun on my hip both times.

Did she try to pull your lower lip over your head?

I carry any where I can legally carry I put my seat belt on every time I get in the car even if I'm just moving parking spots

DasFriek
November 16, 2010, 04:53 PM
I don't leave my house without my gun, Cell phone and knife. No kevlar vest tho, Do i need one?

I will be using the FiF on this topic as it may incriminalate me.
Imo only an idiot will post online that they break the law of any type.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 04:53 PM
Real simple, statistics.

Statistics are a poor measure of the real world. But even if they weren't it takes but once for a previously peaceful location to transform into a bloodbath.

VA Tech was "safe" by your estimation - Cho changed that. The Luby's cafeteria, Westroads mall, U of MD Hospital, where the Dr. was shot...same thing. Statistically, very safe areas. In reality, just as vulnerable to attack and criminal behavior as anywhere else.

If I may, I'm curious - if you already carry, then surely you can appreciate that once you strap on your pistol, it is essentially a non-issue as you carry out your daily activities. It's not going anywhere unless you choose to deploy it in response to a threat.

How does that differ from carrying in a supposed "safe" area? Why is it reasonable for you to carry in one place, and not the other, when doing so requires nothing more than toting the thing around?

Gouranga
November 16, 2010, 04:55 PM
Regardless of the once in a blue moon example someone might post...

If this not WHY we carry? The once in a blue moon example? Look I know there are places in town I would go to which would significantly raise the risk of something happening. Unless I absolutely need to I do not go there. However, ONCE in a blue moon 2 kids went on a shooting spree in Columbine. Once in a blue moon someone shot up a McD's in California. Once in a blue moon a recently paroled felon showed up at the entrance to my subdivision (a middle class, "safe" neighborhood) and shot into 2 homes and at the dozen officers who responded. You see where I am going? Once in a blue moons happen all the time and all places. ECMC in Buffalo, NY had shooting in the hospital ER. Gaston Memorial in Gastonia, NC (pretty safe hospital) had a shooting in the ER (which was the SAME door the woman in labor used at the time).

If we only wore guns when our chances of running into trouble were high, then I am betting most of us would not be carrying.

Now in NC hospital carry is illegal so that is/was not an option for me. I wish it was however.

Flintknapper
November 16, 2010, 04:56 PM
CHEVELLE427 wrote:

remember back about 10-15 years ago in Californian i think it was.
a lady was going to meet up with her mom and dad at a MC Donald's and there was a no guns allowed sign on the door, so she left her permitted to carry gun in her car.

a crazed man came in and killed 26 people it think it was. the woman that left her gun in the car got to watch her parents get murdered.

she just testified before congress a few years back about the right to carry .

now she wonders if she could have made a difference if she had not obeyed the no gun sign.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre

Sounds like the Luby’s massacre that happened in ’91 (Suzanna Hupp) here in Texas.

Sam1911
November 16, 2010, 04:59 PM
As to be asked to leave, I should not have assumed you read the earlier post. If you are there to see your kid being born, why risk being forced to leave and missing the one time blessed event?


I certainly did read it. And I've replied extensively on my views of the perception of safety surrounding a hospital. I risk being asked to leave any number of places. I've carried in police stations while being fingerprinted, while on roller coasters, in my employer's vehicle going to client meetings, on the beach, at religious services, weddings, etc., etc. I am comfortable with that risk. I weigh that risk against the more compelling risk of reaching for that gun in a moment of need and not having it there.

(I admit, again, that I did not risk getting kicked out of my children's births. Heck, I delivered the last one myself (wife helped a little) and my wife didn't seem to care much at the time where my guns were... ;))

Vector
November 16, 2010, 05:00 PM
Quote: Vector
"I will address other specific comments regarding my stance on when to carry based on a potential threat. However let my generally point out the obvious, that some places are safer than others. So if I am going to a maternity ward in a hospital, the potential need for deadly force to protect myself is significantly lower than that of walking into a pawn shop in the middle of the ghetto. You do not need a crystal ball to differentiate between the two."

Your feeling of safety is entirely without data or consideration. My wife works in a large city hospital and the most dangerous part of the hospital is the maternity ward. (She had data to back it up) Apparently, there are big issues between women and often men (but mostly women) about who the father is, the color of the child, who is sleeping with who etcetera.

Vector, you are wrapping yourself into a baseless determination of what you think is safe. You do not know these places to be safe, you are assuming that they are. In fact, no place on this planet is so safe that one would never have to be concerned about their own safety. You are also attempting to condescend to other that do not share your world view, which I do not appreciate. Many of them may not understand what you are looking to achieve with this thread.

You are looking to assuage your own concerns by being able to label others as paranoid or unreasonable. After all, you decide what is safe and what is not. You want to be able to think that you are indeed taking the intellectual high road through your own flawed logic. You are wrong.

I carry everywhere I go, as long as it is not prohibited by law. Here in Pennsylvania that means I can carry in hospitals, banks, bars, supermarkets, public transit, sushi restaurants and anywhere else not prohibited. Why? Because everywhere I go I am responsible for my own safety and security. I am ultimately responsible for my safety, and thus I am responsible for it. In no situation can I delegate that responsibility to another with any type of warranty.

Where to carry is entirely up to you, and as an individual I support your right to make that choice. The decision to carry a firearm is highly personal. You have no right to judge the decisions of others concerning when and how they carry, it is their business.

I take great issue with the flawed logic of "sometimes carry" based on the presumption of risk. As many have stated before, why go where it is perceived to be risky to life and limb. That is the rub, we never know where we will face life and death or when. How many people think on a daily basis that the school they are teaching or studying in will be the location of the next mass murder spree? None of us know. To be trained and proficient with a firearm and not have one (let alone needing one at a certain point) is a tremendous waste of an ability. If you do not carry all of the time you are at risk for the rarity of violent crime... that is your risk. (Having a firearm will not assure complete success in any violent situation, but it helps)

Don't take this personally, but I am literally laughing at your second paragraph about irate fathers in maternity wards. :D

Lets assume for the sake of argument you are right, and many fathers are questioning the paternity of their newborn child. How many of them are going to whip out a gun and start killing everyone?:rolleyes:
I'd very much like you to provide the data to back up that claim, because it seems absurd to me.

As to me being condescending, my response to you is the first time. :p

Seriously, I have not once called anyone paranoid or unreasonable, it is just that I do not understand some peoples thinking. That does not mean I think they are idiots or nut jobs, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what motivates them. I might disagree with their way of thinking, but I do not think I have been disparaging. I am just attempting to have a mature and rational discussion on the subject.

armoredman
November 16, 2010, 05:06 PM
I carried a CZ 70 .32 auto SOB when my son was born. It was my backup, and I was called straight from work when he was taken via C-Section. The primary sidearm was in the trunk, slung in there with the duty belt as I was racing away from work that day!
Carry everywhere? Yes, except work, there I carry Dept issued sidearm or the inside-the-wire non-lethal stuff. No beaches, and I don't walk around in shorts, flip flops bare chested. Gah, what an ugly thought....
Yes, the maternity ward was set up as a safe room with auto lock doors and extra security. There was a gunman running from PD next to the hospital once, but that was the closest it got. The wife was armed in the NICU with my son when they slammed the doors when that happened.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 05:09 PM
How many of them are going to whip out a gun and start killing everyone?

The same could be said about distraught sons - and I can point you towards articles about just one distraught son.

Why does there need to be a history of danger for an area to be deemed "carry worthy" in your mind? We keep providing evidence of violent acts being committed in all manner of areas, yet you seem unable to admit that there is no set pattern to define safe vs. unsafe. The point is that WE DON'T KNOW who will suddenly decide to whip out a gun and start killing everyone. If we knew, we wouldn't be there in the first place. It's really not a complicated concept to grasp.

jon86
November 16, 2010, 05:21 PM
I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what motivates them

Some of us would rather carry as often as legally possible than be a victim of a violent crime. It's pretty simple.

brboyer
November 16, 2010, 05:23 PM
Don't take this personally, but I am literally laughing at your second paragraph about irate fathers in maternity wards. :D

Lets assume for the sake of argument you are right, and many fathers are questioning the paternity of their newborn child. How many of them are going to whip out a gun and start killing everyone?:rolleyes:
I'd very much like you to provide the data to back up that claim, because it seems absurd to me.

As to me being condescending, my response to you is the first time. :p

Seriously, I have not once called anyone paranoid or unreasonable, it is just that I do not understand some peoples thinking. That does not mean I think they are idiots or nut jobs, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what motivates them. I might disagree with their way of thinking, but I do not think I have been disparaging. I am just attempting to have a mature and rational discussion on the subject.
You obviously have not spent much time in hospitals.

After the birth of my first grandchild last year, he was diagnosed with with a life threatening genetic condition. I spent 18 hours a day in a children's hospital with him for about three months.

You would be shocked to learn how many times police were called to deal with assaults, robberies, burglaries, etc. All this in a 'normal' part of a large city.

Violence can and does happen everywhere! And has in the past in each of the locations you specify.

Some people choose to prepare for it by carrying a firearm, knife, pepper-spray, kubotan or other weapon; others do not. Simple as that.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 05:26 PM
You would be shocked to learn how many times police were called to deal with assaults, robberies, burglaries, etc. All this in a 'normal' part of a large city.

This. Hospitals can be damn dangerous places, especially for the medical staff.

Steve_NEPhila
November 16, 2010, 05:46 PM
You asked for it Vector:

http://blogs.hcpro.com/hospitalsafety/2010/11/hospital-shooting-prompts-safety-concerns-for-florida-hospitals/

http://www.seiu.org/2010/04/violent-assaults-against-staff-at-bronx-hospital-tripled-from-2008---2009.php

http://workplaceviolencenews.com/2010/03/08/violence-in-hospitals-a-growing-problem/

This is about 8 years old and it shows hospital workers are the victims of non-fatal assaults almost four times as often as any other profession.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-101/

I would continue, but I am sure you can work a Google search for yourself. Hospitals are not safe. However, you can keep your head under the sand and believe they are.

Enginetech88
November 16, 2010, 05:49 PM
Yes I know it happened in Germany. But it has happened. Less than 2 months ago actually.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6020400,00.html


And to be part of the discussion. I always carry. Unless its illegal where I am going. As previously stated I would hate to reach for my gun and not have it. That would be something to live with the rest of you life. Because "you figured the place was safe".

JohnBiltz
November 16, 2010, 05:56 PM
I put my carry on when I wake up and take it off when I go to bed and its close then. I don't carry where it is illegal to do so. Other than that I carry if I'm awake and dressed.

CHEVELLE427
November 16, 2010, 06:00 PM
this might be the link i was talking about , im still searching

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 06:05 PM
CHEVELLE - the woman you're thinking of is Suzanna Gratia Hupp. Her parents were killed in the Luby's massacre. She left her gun in the car because at the time, you had to in the state of Texas.

Vector
November 16, 2010, 06:13 PM
You asked for it Vector:

http://blogs.hcpro.com/hospitalsafety/2010/11/hospital-shooting-prompts-safety-concerns-for-florida-hospitals/

http://www.seiu.org/2010/04/violent-assaults-against-staff-at-bronx-hospital-tripled-from-2008---2009.php

http://workplaceviolencenews.com/2010/03/08/violence-in-hospitals-a-growing-problem/

This is about 8 years old and it shows hospital workers are the victims of non-fatal assaults almost four times as often as any other profession.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-101/

I would continue, but I am sure you can work a Google search for yourself. Hospitals are not safe. However, you can keep your head under the sand and believe they are.

I am not trying to play semantics like you did earlier, even though this next sentence might sound like it.
You specifically said "your wife who worked in a large city hospital and the most dangerous part of the hospital is the maternity ward. (She had data to back it up)".

The google search you did apparently did not come up with a single incident of violence occurring in a maternity ward. The reason is obvious as that section of the hospital is not going to have the violence that ER's and Psych wards are.
I never said violence could not happen at a hospital. I clearly and repeatedly said it was not happening in maternity wards. Before you even try to claim it, general hospital visitor traffic does not travel through the ER or the lunatic bin to get to the floor of the maternity ward.

CHEVELLE427
November 16, 2010, 06:18 PM
thanks for the clear up i could not remember were it was but knew it happen, i thought it was Californian

DeepSouth
November 16, 2010, 06:23 PM
I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what motivates them

Habits are hard to break, so we make it a habit to be armed whenever legal. That pretty much ensures we'll have when/if we need it. The fact that we'll also have it when we wouldn't likely be needing it is a not even an inconvenience anymore.......because it's a habit.

Kind of like your wedding scenario, I had my wallet in my pocket at my wedding but I wasn't buying my wife, I didn't need my wallet but carrying it (and my CCW) is just a habit.

If it's legal I carry, if it's not I don't. For me it really is that simple, well simple wouldn't be the right word because of the "grey" areas in the laws. When I get in one of those grey areas I usually leave it in the truck.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 06:26 PM
I never said violence could not happen at a hospital. I clearly and repeatedly said it was not happening in maternity wards. Before you even try to claim it, general hospital visitor traffic does not travel through the ER or the lunatic bin to get to the floor of the maternity ward.

It does at our local general hospital, as well as multiple others in the area. There are many routes to the various departments in every hospital, for a reason.

But even if it didn't - you're predicating your argument on the idea that once in the maternity ward, the parents/new child will -stay- in that ward, and that no potential threats will enter from other areas of the hospital. That's ludicrous. Maternity wards are not secured areas - in fact, there are very few "secured" areas in hospitals in general. So the fact that there are few statistics (and remember what they say about statistics!) of violence in the Maternity ward is not the best base from which to argue your point.

Vector
November 16, 2010, 06:35 PM
Statistics are a poor measure of the real world. But even if they weren't it takes but once for a previously peaceful location to transform into a bloodbath.

No offense, but we all use statistics for our own purposes, so they are as relevant as anyone wants to make them.
You cannot tell me that a majority of us have not used statistics to defend our right to bear arms, or conversely argued that our right should not be infringed. So while certain hospitals are more dangerous than others, and certain parts of those hospitals are prone to violence such as ER's, statistically maternity wards are not a place you would need to use deadly force to protect yourself.



VA Tech was "safe" by your estimation - Cho changed that. The Luby's cafeteria, Westroads mall, U of MD Hospital, where the Dr. was shot...same thing. Statistically, very safe areas. In reality, just as vulnerable to attack and criminal behavior as anywhere else.

I disagree. Sure violence can and eventually will happen in most settings. However there are places violence rarely happens, and as a result the need to use deadly force to protect yourself is almost non existent. There are places you cannot legally carry, yet the threat level is very high. I do not see the same people who say they carry everywhere including low risk places claim they are carrying into places it is illegal to carry even though the threat level is high. To those individuals who make it sound like a risk reward scenario, why are they not screaming the mantra of "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"?

If I may, I'm curious - if you already carry, then surely you can appreciate that once you strap on your pistol, it is essentially a non-issue as you carry out your daily activities. It's not going anywhere unless you choose to deploy it in response to a threat.

I honestly do not understand what you are trying to ask me with this question. If you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.

How does that differ from carrying in a supposed "safe" area? Why is it reasonable for you to carry in one place, and not the other, when doing so requires nothing more than toting the thing around?

I thought it was clear based on my previous posts. If I'm going into a low risk area such as a maternity ward, Disney World, etc., the threat potential of me needing to use deadly force to defend myself does not equate with my need to carry. However if I am going to a known area that is dangerous, strange place, isolated location, long road trip etc., I feel the need to carry just in case. So it is not as if I only carry while traveling near the ghetto. Unlike some here, I just do not carry all the time no matter the need or reason.

kingpin008
November 16, 2010, 06:39 PM
I give up. This is pointless.

augustino
November 16, 2010, 07:08 PM
Please understand that I in NO WAY am suggesting and definitely NOT advocating that anyone should ever break the law. Heck no I do not break the law and advise everyone to pay the strictest attention to the law. PERIOD.

BUT let's suppose one were to enter a store, hospital, bank, post office or any facility where firearms are prohibited BUT they had their pistol on their person concealed. And let's say that while this armed cevilian in a building or facility clearly marked "NO FIREARMS" let's say while they were waiting on line or visiting someone, a crazy person storms in with a rifle or pistol or baseball bat or machete or whatever, they enter to hurt and kill people.
Now let's say this armed civilian draws his weapon and stops the would be killer dead in his tracks by shooting or better yet capturing him.
How would the law treat this hero, er'... I mean treat this law breaker?

I've always wondered about that?

Vector
November 16, 2010, 07:10 PM
I give up. This is pointless.
Sadly I took the time to respond to your questions and comments and you fail to extend the same courtesy. In reality there are safer places than others statistically whether you want to admit it or not. That is not to say some lunatic cannot decide to run through a hospital, go into the nursery and shoot all the newborns. However if it has never occurred to this day, or even if it happens once in five hundred years, carrying in certain places is not needed.

I do find it amusing that some who must carry at all times readily admit to not carrying in places like bars. Sure they are to be commended for abiding by the law, but they willingly go into these high risk areas where the need to use deadly force to defend themselves is statistically high. It seems like a contradiction to me, especially if they take the attitude "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

CoRoMo
November 16, 2010, 07:10 PM
Dang Vector, you seem to be drawing a bit of heat to yourself. I went out to change a couple truck batteries in our company fleet, and this thread has taken on a life unto itself!

Thank you to the members who stepped in and took up the logical side of the debate while I was gone. Now give me a few minutes to read through some of this.

Frank Ettin
November 16, 2010, 07:11 PM
...If I'm going into a low risk area ...the threat potential of me needing to use deadly force to defend myself does not equate with my need to carry.... Good, don't carry. It won't be my problem. Of course, sometimes something happens that has never happened before. And 2 or 3 or 4 standard deviations from the mean is not zero. And the stakes are pretty high. But it's your choice and not my problem.

...I just do not carry all the time no matter the need...Of course you never know if you really need it until you actually need it.

Vector
November 16, 2010, 07:20 PM
Dang Vector, you seem to be drawing a bit of heat to yourself. I went out to change a couple truck batteries in our company fleet, and this thread has taken on a life unto itself!

Thank you to the members who stepped in and took up the logical side of the debate while I was gone. Now give me a few minutes to read through some of this.

Well I will be gone for 2-3 hours in a couple of minutes so I guess others will have a field day in my absence.

This discussion hearkens me back to a thread about carrying at Disney World. I pointed out how I did not carry there, but others were coming up with all sorts of scenarios including terrorists and the like. This of course despite Disney specifically prohibiting firearms on their private property.
Disney is another example of a statistically safe place where the "need to carry" is not borne out by the facts. Yet to bring up that fact makes some here think I am a gun grabbing pinko communist.;)

Old krow
November 16, 2010, 07:23 PM
Everywhere basically has the same risk factor, without any outside influence (i.e. deserts, hurricanes, tornados and earthquakes) as any other place. Geography for the most part, at least as far as handgun safety is concerned, could easily fall into the "inanimate object" category. It's the people that make somewhere safe or unsafe.

Unlike some here, I just do not carry all the time no matter the need or reason.

If I knew where I needed to carry or where I had reason to carry I would NOT carry. I simply wouldn't go there and eliminate the need altogether. Statistically a hospital is as safe as a prison, or a school, or a movie theatre, that is, until humans enter. If I were a criminal, and it's not all that hard to think like one if you've ever hunted (all predators), I wouldn't attack you in any of the places you mentioned that you would carry because of the likelihood of you carrying. If I were a criminal, I would aspire to be on the "unsolved" lists and your picture in the paper instead of mine. I think in general, we, probably due to the media, have this misconception that criminals are all a box of rocks.

No offense, but we all use statistics for our own purposes, so they are as relevant as anyone wants to make them.

Statistics are a perfectly legitimate way of debating a subject. They're always "with respect" (or used in their proper text) to something or they have little accuracy. If we're actually going to omit them because they could be misconstrued then this is just an opinionated debate with no foundation.

I do not carry where I am not allowed. I do not carry when prudence dictates that I should not. I make an attempt to mitigate risks one way or the other, I'm still going to be a hard target one way or the other. It's another tool in a tool box and I use it where appropriate.

My home is supposed to be safe, but I believe that the burglary/theft statistics are around a 9 in 10 chance in a persons lifetime, not necessarily of the violent variety.

esquare
November 16, 2010, 07:26 PM
Real simple, statistics.

Vector - When I get my permit, I'm going to carry anywhere legal. Since I will have a child soon, that means that I'll probably have it on myself in the house as well instead of on a shelf or dresser, etc. Does that make me paranoid?

http://web.mac.com/mj_lauer/iWeb/RangeDiary/Diary/6CB938C0-2B9C-4E64-950B-F9CF7388C277.html

Statistics are great for many things, but we don't carry guns based on statistics just like with don't carry fire insurance, or frankly any insurance, based on statistics. We carry insurance because, in the small, negligible, statistically insignificant chance that our house caught fire, it would be financially devastating for us to have to pay out of pocket to rebuild that asset. Carrying a gun is the same - we don't carry because it's statically probable that we will need it (otherwise most of us would change our circumstances to mitigate that risk) we carry it as an insurance policy because we know that if life doesn't go the way the probabilities tell us, the loss would be too catastrophic to bear.

Crime happens everywhere. Is a faculty meeting in a university a 'safe' location? Of course, but I bet there are at least six people that would have loved to have had a gun on them when that nut job at University of Alabama opened fire on her colleagues. How about a hospital? Well, that's where gang bangers drop off their wounded and dying. How about an Army base? Safe? School? Grocery store? Post office (going postal?). Restaurant? Lubby's.

The lesson is, if you base your decisions about where/when to carry on statistics, you probably will have guessed wrong when you need a weapon. If you just carry it at all possible times, you'll have more of a chance of being able to protect yourself. That really is the only variable in this equation that you and I get to set - all others are picked for us.

You can obviously choose to live as you see fit, but I have come to the conclusion after much thought and research that I can't predict when I'll need a weapon, and simply carrying a tool that could some day save a life isn't any more paranoid than having a fire extinguisher (or 2, OMG!!!!) in my house or wearing a seat belt in my car, or throwing a spare blanket in the trunk during winter months in case I break down in the middle of nowhere.

ZigZagZeke
November 16, 2010, 07:39 PM
My wife had our baby at home in order to avoid the hospital "care". She had had two in the hospital before and wanted to avoid it again at all costs. No problem with being armed at our daughter's birth.

Leverb66
November 16, 2010, 07:41 PM
I doubt few carry 'to' their childs birth, but they might be carrying at their childs birth. There is a difference. The one carrying 'to' the birth might be paranoid, the one carrying while at the event might just not view their weapon any different than their wallet, cell phone, keys, etc

Sam1911
November 16, 2010, 08:02 PM
Sadly I took the time to respond to your questions and comments and you fail to extend the same courtesy. In reality there are safer places than others statistically whether you want to admit it or not. That is not to say some lunatic cannot decide to run through a hospital, go into the nursery and shoot all the newborns. However if it has never occurred to this day, or even if it happens once in five hundred years, carrying in certain places is not needed.

Then clearly there is nothing more to say. You believe that carrying in certain places is "not needed." All the evidence, statistical or anecdotal, shown to you isn't changing that belief. So why continue the discussion?

You asked why people do what they do. Now you know. Do what you want with that information for your own purposes, but don't belittle, deride, or ridicule those of us who find your beliefs unfounded.

I do find it amusing that some who must carry at all times readily admit to not carrying in places like bars. Sure they are to be commended for abiding by the law, but they willingly go into these high risk areas where the need to use deadly force to defend themselves is statistically high. It seems like a contradiction to me, especially if they take the attitude "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

I carry in bars. I carry while drinking, too. (Though mildly...inebriation in a public place is, IMHO, tactically irresponsible.) So you aren't going to find me contradicting myself in that way.

Disney WorldCan't believe you said Disney World... of all the perfect examples to disprove your own point! Crime -- including violent crime -- is a serious problem at D.W. and places like it. Yes, as I pointed out earlier, I do carry in such locales, including while going 75 mph through the air upside down. 'Course, statistically speaking, I'm not likely to need it until I step off the ride! ;)

Bubba613
November 16, 2010, 08:06 PM
Sadly the discussion deteriorates into the typical "it happened once, it could happen any time" mode of gun discussion. Fortunately most people don't apply this reasoning to the rest of their lives. Otherwise everyone would go around with a flak vest and construction helmet.

FWIW, banks in TN are not legally off limits unless posted, like any other business.

CoRoMo
November 16, 2010, 08:12 PM
So it appears that the OP is willing to bet his life, and I suppose the lives of his dearest companions, on whatever statistics he's decided to cling to. However, he also admits that violence can, and does occur in most all places at one time or another. There is only one conclusion; that is a ridiculous way to operate. Vector assumes a lot... too much in fact.

I'm headed home now. The statistics surrounding my driving record are clear: there's no reason for me to expect to be in a collision on my drive. But I'm not stupid. I'm going to wear my seat belt.

Walk about helplessly unarmed if you choose. Not me, I'm going to take an ounce of prevention.

hso
November 16, 2010, 09:29 PM
Some are invested in the argument more than debate.

Is life risk free? No, no one here would argue that.

Do all activities have the same risk? No, no one here would argue that either.

Is it possible to establish if a given activity has a greater risk than another? Possibly, if we understand that establishing risk is the relationship between to probability or frequency of occurrence of a hazard and the severity of exposure to the hazard.

My wife spent some years making home health calls on patients. The hospital assessed the risk of making those calls after 11 am in a particular block of addresses as high enough to be unacceptable to schedule visits after 11 am in that area. Before 10 they assessed the risk as moderate and between 07 and 09 they assessed it as low. The basis of the risk assessment was that violent crime in that area was linked to the time of day. At no time of the day did they assess the risk as very low or nonexistent in that area. Matter of fact they never assessed the risk as nonexistent even for calls on gated suburban neighborhoods because they considered there to always be a potential for someone to think the staff had medications with them (even though they never did).

Is life free of risk at all times? No. Are there activities that subject us to greater risk? Certainly. Are there activities that subject us to less risk than at other times? Obviously if some activities carry greater risk than others.

What if we combine activities? We have to if we do more than one thing all the time at only one place. Our lives are a whole series of activities that have their individual risks associated with them. The combination of all those risks sets an overall risk to our lives. Living in that neighborhood the hospital forbad the home health staff to enter after 11 am carried a lot greater overall risk than the home health staff that only were there before 11. If you limit your individual risks consciously then you can limit the total risk, but you have to remember that you need to be accurate in your assessment of risk and rigorous in avoiding those risks.

Can you avoid risk of violent crime all the time for all places for all activities? Since our lives are a whole series of activities at different places and times you should not look at each in isolation because you don't spend all your time doing just one thing in just one place.

Bubba613
November 16, 2010, 10:08 PM
So it appears that the OP is willing to bet his life, and I suppose the lives of his dearest companions, on whatever statistics he's decided to cling to. However, he also admits that violence can, and does occur in most all places at one time or another. There is only one conclusion; that is a ridiculous way to operate. Vector assumes a lot... too much in fact.

And shockingly most people go through life never carrying a gun even a single day and never have a problem. So I would say the OP's bet is well founded. But in any case it is his decision, much as yours is your decision.

Art Eatman
November 16, 2010, 10:48 PM
Opinionatin' ain't discussionatin'. Pretty much pointless to continue this thread.

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