.25 ACP loads

Yes another thread all about that "anemic" .25 bullet that can be stopped by a sheet of paper.
I do have a little .25 auto I had recently fixed and am thinking of carrying it as a bug. Now before you all start hatin', please keep it on topic.
Now I am curious since there is a a few different choices of ammunition to choose from with (what I found) varying degrees of use. Please correct me if I'm wrong I'm just going off of research and my own thought.

50G FMJ= The normal ball round, good for penetration through soft flesh but shooting center mass there is a chance of deflection off the rib cage; although the deflection has a chance of being minor and the round still penetrating through. Head shots, I've heard too many stories of these bullets just bouncing off or traveling around the skull. Neck/face/center mass seems to be the most likely place you would need to shoot someone if you want to bring him down.

35G JHP= If the penetration of the FMJ wasn't iffy enough, they make hollow point rounds for this caliber (one worker at Dicks I talked to was almost astonished they would make JHP in .25). Forget about center mass shots with this stuff, that's if it can even penetrate enough to expand after passing through some layers of clothing. I have been told that these are able to penetrate the skull, unlike the FMJ rounds, for the reason of their much higher velocity and any glancing shots are increased by the "edge" of the bullet cavity. Neck shots would be promising as well, so I will place this stuff as a need to shoot at neck/head/face.

Then there is the .45 Expanding Point Winchester makes...and I can't really see any advantage towards this round. It's almost between the FMJ and the JHP in velocity and expansion, although tests through layers of denim has shown the round will not expand. The tests from brassfetcher show they experimented with the round having the ball removed, making it a bubba'd JHP; but did not actually measure the bullet for expansion, only penetration (although with the .25 penetration is key).

I look at the .25 auto not so much as a killing round but as a deterrent round. IMO the FMJ would be the way to go, since you have a much greater chance of penetration even if the bullet cannot at times enter the skull; doesn't mean the bullet tracking around the skull can't end up in his neck. The JHP are tempting, but think that is simply they are JHP and everyone thinks of the JHP as being one of those superman-stopper one shot super bullets, although you have a much greater chance of actually stopping him if you have skull penetration; you still need to actually shoot him in the head though!

Ah who I am I kidding, I should just trade it in for a .32 or .380 at the next gun show :p

Go fmj all the way. Feeds better, penetrates as good as it will, and is easier to find and train with. FMJ bullets are cheaper to reload. Also, the velocity is so slow, reliable expansion of the HP's is probably unlikely anyway. A .25 is better than .00 (no gun at all), and carries concealed better than most.

My wife's dad had a .25 that he carried in an ankle holster we inherited. It is heavier than the current batch of 380s and some 9mm. I wouldn't buy one but since we have it, it's fun to mess with. When I do carry it, I figure it's range is 5 feet or less, hopefully less.

Early in my life, I was a paramedic. I've seen shootings where a .25 hit high on the forehead and circled to the back. We also had a guy shot in the throat, went all the way through and out the back of his neck and destroyed nothing vital. At least it seemed that way. After an hour in the ER he checked himself out AMA or against medical advice. I've heard the good Lord looks out after fools and drunks. This guy qualified on both accounts. The holes a .25 make are more like a big ice pick with no shock to the surrounding tissue. I also held the hand of a young women who committed suicide by putting a .25 to her temple. There was no exit wound. I figured our response time was 6 minutes or so and on the scene another 5-7 minutes before she died. She would respond to my touch by gripping my hand and would mouth unrecognizable sounds. I always wondered if she actually was conscious of what was going on. Not that I plan on doing myself in with a gun or otherwise but if I did it wouldn't be with a .25.

We also had a guy shot in the throat, went all the way through and out the back of his neck and destroyed nothing vital.
Now that's lucky.

Now say if I decide to up it to .32, would the same ideology be applied? Penetration>Expansion

If you already had a gun that shoots .25acp I guess it would make sense to get to know it.

But if you're shopping for a gun as a BUG or small carry it seems to make sense to me to find the small size that you want and then to buy it in the biggest caliber it comes in.

The flip side would be the.... uh... well, the flip. A small gun shooting a bigger cartridge obviously kicks and flips more. So the selection of caliber has to be tempered by the shooter's ability to not flinch at the recoil and to place shots accurately and to be able to recover from the muzzle flip and get off repeat followup shots quickly and accurately. Much of this will depend on how well the grip of the gun matches the shooter's hand(s). A bad mismatch to the hand will result in a loss of proper support and allow the gun to shift in the shooter's grip to excess. Something that would make for really bad accuracy in any followup shots.

And obviously what is tolerable recoil to one shooter is hellish recoil to another. Ideally you want to find a buddy with the gun you're looking at to try it or a rental range or hook up with someone in your area and trade them a box of ammo for some test time with their gun.

IF you must use the 25 ACP as your only BUG option, then see if the 50-gr. FMJ feeds reliably in your pistol and if you have to use it in a SD scenario, quickly unload the entire magazine into the BG's Thoracic Triangle area between the armpits and the base of the throat. This is likely your only option here.

Also suggest you consider practicing rapid fire drills at the range with this grossly underpowdered Mouse Gun and look for a used 38 snubnose and load it with Buffalo Bore's short barrel 158-gr. FBI load (#20C) or their 100-gr. Hardcast.

I'm sure that enough people over the years have been killed with .25s to justify their use as a defense round—at least as a last resort defense round. I wouldn't carry it as a primary carry unless I absolutely had nothing else. I would feel slightly under-gunned, but it's better than nothing.

I'm not sure, however, about a 35gr JHP round being able to penetrate a skull and a 50gr FMJ round not being able to. Something about that seems wrong in the physics department. Wouldn't the heavier FMJ round both have more energy when it hit and not have the hollow point structure to help dissipate is energy before it got into the brain? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, it just seems like the heavier FMJ would penetrate better than a lighter HP.

I know we are not supposed to use derogatory words on this site, but I think use of the following term is justified.

Anyone who says the .25 ACP is harmless or won't penetrate a sheet of paper is an

IDIOT.

Jim

I recommend fmj for anything bellow .380. A jhp just isn't suited for a bullet that is that light, small and traveling so slow. A .25 is still better than a knife or stick. I'd own one as a fun gun if the ammo wasn't so expensive and hard to get.

If forced to carry a .25 Auto, I'd opt for a 50 grain FMJ @ ~700 fps which will provide about 12-14 inches of soft tissue penetration. The round is easily deflected as you've already noted, so putting as many rounds into the target as quickly as possible seems the wisest plan of action. Center of mass (lower than the upper chest which is laden with mnay bony structures) might be a better prefered target area, but one may not have the luxury of an optimal target presentation either so one must take what one can get.

"Stepping up" in caliber, even if it is a 'nominal' step like the .32ACP, is always desirable and I'd encourage it if you can. Having a .25 is better than having nothing at all, but the confidence that can be gained through the employment of a larger, more "able" caliber is priceless when your bacon is hanging over the fire.

Even if the little .25 bullets are defected and don't penetrate the skull they are still likely to knock the perp out temporarily, giving you time to escape. It's still a chunk of metal smacking into your skull faster than anyone could throw it.

Wouldn't the heavier FMJ round both have more energy when it hit and not have the hollow point structure to help dissipate is energy before it got into the brain?
I've seen shootings where a .25 hit high on the forehead and circled to the back.
I've heard this happening even with raccoons :eek:. It's just that the .25 is so underpowered it can be deflected easily by the structure of a skull. The physics behind the 35 grain is that it is moving at about 350 fps more then the 50 grain fmj is that the faster round would simply break through the bone before or while breaking up.

How about Magsafe in .25 auto. I shot a 2 x 4 with this .25 using HP, FMJ and Magsafe and the Magsafe did the most devistating damage.:confused:

Magsafe = low penetration / superficial damage that will get you killed! Suggest you with a heavy FMJ to put more odds in your favor.

Magsafe = low penetration / superficial damage that will get you killed! Suggest you with a heavy FMJ to put more odds in your favor.
I have heard of this before and was told to use FMJ to take advantage of the penetration to get the most of this as the velocity on .25 ACP is just too low to expand in HP form so penetration is the key here plus FMJ less chance of jams.
Who makes the highest velocity .25 ACP FMJ bullets? Fiocchi? what is the ideal weight in grains?

I've been told the only JHP .25 round that expands reliably is the Hornady XTP.

I've been told the only JHP .25 round that expands reliably is the Hornady XTP.
What are the ballistics on the Hornady XTP and velocity?

Here's some .25 acp data from Handloads.com, for what it's worth.


http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=3&Weight=All

What are the ballistics on the Hornady XTP and velocity?
http://www.hornady.com/store/25-Auto-35-gr-XTP/
It might just be the design of the bullet itself, I've just been told that Hornady would expand more reliable then Speer or Fiocchi.

"25 ACP loads
Yes another thread all about that "anemic" .25 bullet that can be stopped by a sheet of paper."

Geez, I thought a gust of wind could stop it. :cool:

Just kidding. I would not take a bullet from a .25 acp, it can kill - depending on placement and (like anything) luck.

http://www.hornady.com/store/25-Auto-35-gr-XTP/
It might just be the design of the bullet itself, I've just been told that Hornady would expand more reliable then Speer or Fiocchi.
Does Cabela's or Nanchez shooting supplies sell this ammo? I notice that it is slighter more velocity 900 fps than the standard .25 which is usually 700-800 fps.

"25 ACP loads
Yes another thread all about that "anemic" .25 bullet that can be stopped by a sheet of paper."

Geez, I thought a gust of wind could stop it. :cool:

Just kidding. I would not take a bullet from a .25 acp, it can kill - depending on placement and (like anything) luck.
Police officers and civilians have been killed by this caliber. One thing always comes up with the .22 LR being a superior round to the .25 ACP but it isn't because even though there are hot .22 loads like Stinger HP or Stinger Segmented HP and Aguilar ammo rated at 1,750 fps, rim fire ammo is unreliable in misfires unlike the centerfire .25 ACP which more than not goes bang and misfires in an auto is worse because everything stops at this point.

Here's some .25 acp data from Handloads.com, for what it's worth.


http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=3&Weight=All
Very interesting is this reflective in what .25 ammo is mostly available in which would be FMJ?
That expanding point from Winchester with the bb in the nose has been around forever.

Does Cabela's or Nanchez shooting supplies sell this ammo?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=205340

hot .22 loads like Stinger HP or Stinger Segmented HP and Aguilar ammo rated at 1,750 fps
The majority of those tests are from rifles, I am curious what the velocity would be out of a 2inch barrel of a Jennings.

That expanding point from Winchester with the bb in the nose has been around forever.What exactly is that bb supposed to do? In a brassfetcher test it did not help with expansion nor did it help with penetration, they also tested a Winchester 50g FMJ which penetrated about 15 inches (2 inches more then the expanding point).
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1453.htm
Bullet recovered [Winchester expanding point] average diameter – 0.250”
:confused:

I've heard more stories about .22's being used to kill deer, I know its not an excepted round for big game hunting, never heard of a .25 ever being used though. I also know there aren't many deer roaming the streets looking to rape and maim either. I think I'd rather choose a .22 over a .25, whether FMJ, HP, or BB types. YMMV:D

It makes some sense as a BUG, but I view .25 ACP for self defense as I do .22 LR: don't use it unless you simply have nothing else. I think, in this cartridge, FMJ is your best bet. While I am not usually a fan of "staggered" loadings, a case could be made for alternating FMJ with the 35-gr. hollowpoint.

Anyone who says the .25 ACP is harmless or won't penetrate a sheet of paper is an

IDIOT.
I'm sure the OP was using just a bit of sarcasm and hyperbole. ;)

What exactly is that bb supposed to do? In a brassfetcher test it did not help with expansion nor did it help with penetration...

You answered your own question.

Conventional JHPs rely upon hydraulic forces (generated by fluid/liquid flow into their cavities) to drive their expansion.

The BB obstructs this function and inhibits expansion since it will not deform (its yield strength is much greater than that of the of the bullet cavity material surrounding it) at the speeds and under the dynamic forces that a .25ACP is capable of producing. Its presence there renders the JHP effectively a FMJ.

I'm sure the OP was using just a bit of sarcasm and hyperbole.:neener:

You answered your own question.

Conventional JHPs rely upon hydraulic forces (generated by fluid/liquid flow into their cavities) to drive their expansion.

The BB obstructs this function and inhibits expansion since it will not deform (its yield strength is much greater than that of the of the bullet cavity material surrounding it) at the speeds and under the dynamic forces that a .25ACP is capable of producing. Its presence there renders the JHP effectively a FMJ.
I had heard that this particuliar bullet wasn't effective to expand.

If forced to carry a .25 Auto, I'd opt for a 50 grain FMJ @ ~700 fps which will provide about 12-14 inches of soft tissue penetration. The round is easily deflected as you've already noted, so putting as many rounds into the target as quickly as possible seems the wisest plan of action. Center of mass (lower than the upper chest which is laden with mnay bony structures) might be a better prefered target area, but one may not have the luxury of an optimal target presentation either so one must take what one can get.

"Stepping up" in caliber, even if it is a 'nominal' step like the .32ACP, is always desirable and I'd encourage it if you can. Having a .25 is better than having nothing at all, but the confidence that can be gained through the employment of a larger, more "able" caliber is priceless when your bacon is hanging over the fire.
Step up to .32 ACP using Buffalo Bore ammo 75 grain bullet rated around 1150 fps.

Step up to .32 ACP using Buffalo Bore ammo 75 grain bullet rated around 1150 fps.

I'll say. Assuming that the bullet offers 'reliable' expansion, that's one heckuva little load right there!

I carry a .25 for defense, with 50gr FMJ, I want to try Glasers though as they'll ultimately penetrate about as deep as the JHP, but leave a pretty substantial wound channel in that little depth.

Why a .25? Because I need to leave it in the car often, and it's easier to remove and replace a pocket holster than it is a IWB. I also have no intent on being some kind of superhero. If my meanface and seven rounds can't deter them, I doubt having 10 rounds of 9mm would have either.

Here's the raw numbers on the most common ammunition I could find as of a few months ago. These are all manufacturer's figures:

Production .25acp ammo manufacturer data as of 10.17.2010
Federal/Am. Eagle 50gr FMJ/ 760fps / 64ft-lb
Remington UMC 50gr fmj / 760 / 64 ft-lb (Same specs with Rem P&R)
WInchester USA FMJ (same as remington)
Winchester EXP 45gr expanding tip / 815 / 66
Fiocchi 25xtp 35gr jhp / 900 / 62.9
Fiocchi 25ap 50gr fmj / 800 / 71
Blazer 50gr fmj / 755 / 63
Glaser Safety Slug 35 / 1100 / 94
Hornady XTP JHP 35gr / 900 / 63
PMC Bronze 50gr FMJ / 750 / 62

steve,

If you don't mind sayin', what brand/make of .25 pistol are you carrying?

Just curious.

I gotta vote fmj as well. Great reliable shape for easy feeding.

Use what you got. If you are good at shooting it, then it will work fine.

If you are seriously looking to trade it and want a small weapon, then look at the LCP or LCR. Still small enough to carry just about anywhere with plenty of bite.

Even if I had a .25 (would have to be given or inherited, as I'd never buy one), I still wouldn't carry it. I'd sell it and use the money toward the purchase of a better gun.

But if I HAD to use one... Well, FMJ. I don't think .25 ACP hollowpoints have the velocity to expand reliably, or if they do, it would probably only be at the cost of losing so much penetration, they'd expand, but not punch deep enough to hit anything vital. So load up with ball, and if you ever have to use it, get close and empty the gun at the assailant (preferably into his face), otherwise I think you just won't do enough damage to stop an attacker with a peashooter like that.

481,

It's an Astra Cub, 1966 produciton year. Think Colt Junior, as the Colt was just a re-branded Cub.

Design wise, it's very similar to the Browning vest-pocket deisgn, just without the additional grip safety and with an external hammer.

They're accurate, reliable and cheap...you can find them at pawnshops in my area from $150-200 depending on condition. I paid $170 for mine.

Here's a pic of it next to my sccy (same size as a KT P11) for size comparison:
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/catatonic_cyclist/firearms/DSCN0367.jpg

I have a Beretta 21 and a Vest Pocket Browning. WHen I carry them as a pocket gun I have them loaded with the Hornady 35gr. load. It's such a low powered round I feel like getting all the velocity I can, and I don't expect it to expand either.

This cartridge has been around longer than most, and has dispatched plenty of people. If used as a last ditch weapon it is much better than a stick. Having said that, my normal carry guns are a pair of BHP's in .40.

I have a friend who inherited a little .25 from her father a few years back (and I had THR's help identifying it about a year back). She doesn't have her CHP but does plan on getting it some time.

But, for the moment it sits hidden in a bookshelf in the living room loaded up with 50gr FMJ. Not really a man stopper but it's something if she or her husband isn't able to reach their .45.

481,

It's an Astra Cub, 1966 produciton year. Think Colt Junior, as the Colt was just a re-branded Cub.

Design wise, it's very similar to the Browning vest-pocket deisgn, just without the additional grip safety and with an external hammer.

They're accurate, reliable and cheap...you can find them at pawnshops in my area from $150-200 depending on condition. I paid $170 for mine.


steve,

Never heard of this gun 'til now. Neat little gun, reminds me quite a bit of the Beretta pocket auto designs.

I'll have to do a little research on these pistols since I've just learned something new here and will be keeping an open eye for them at gun shows when I am out next.

Thanks!

:)

481,

Just keep in mind that there are none post 68 in the US, at least legally. This was one of the "non sporting handguns" that got nailed in the 68 GCA. They were produced for about 10 years of US importation.

The Colt Was the one that you'd see lots of post-68 models, as they had a semi-finished Cub imported, and they'd blue and assemble it here, thus bypassing the law in a way. You will see well over 10 years of it being around.

Ironically, the colt costs about twice as much , despite being the same gun.

Also be weary of the "other" Astra Cub...it came in 2 calibers. 25ACP was the "big" caliber, the other was .22short.

Original mags for the Astra will be nickle plated and have the mark of Firearms International in Washington DC. The aftermatket triple-K mags (still in production) are blued. Also note it's supposed to be a 6-round mag, but I can fit 7 in mine, but only do that if it's about to be used to load the pistol.

For Holsters, If you take a number 1 Uncle Mike's and take a needle and some thread to it, it'll do. If not, the pistol slides around in the holster a bit. Yep...the smallest holster Uncle Mike's makes is too big. I did joke around once about making a pocket holster out of a pack of Camel Wides, but I really don't like the idea of buying cigarettes just to throw them out to use the box for "crafts" (I don't smoke).

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


The standard published load for 25 acp is 1.8 gr Bullseye 50 gr.
That will penetrate 250 pages of a phone book.
If I work that up to 3.2 gr Bullseye, it will penetrate 770 page, but the case is full of powder and the recoil is still wimpy.

If I work up to 6 gr Power Pistol, the primer is at the threshold of falling out and the recoil hurts awful.

Just 4 gr of Power Pistol still hurts awful.

If you don't mind sayin', what brand/make of .25 pistol are you carrying?
FIE Titan E27b

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4079/25acpblck.jpg (http://img84.imageshack.us/i/25acpblck.jpg/)

Shot 1 - Remington UMC 50 gr MC. Impacted at 807 ± 0.500 ft/sec and penetrated to 14.0 ± 0.031". Recovered diameter was 0.250 ± 0.0005". Track outlined in light blue.

Shot 2 - Hornady 35 gr XTP JHP. Impacted at 931 ± 0.500 ft/sec and penetrated to 6.7 ± 0.031". Recovered diameter was 0.369 ± 0.0005". Track outlined in yellow.

Well here is evidence that the Hornady's will expand, well at least in gel. The expansion as you see it expanded just as rapidly (if not earlier) then what I believe is a .40 S&W JHP. As Samari Jack told earlier of a man getting shot through the neck without any vitals hit, I do believe a JHP such as this would have made a difference. Chest shots, the edges of the JHP can at least provide a cutting surface even if it does not penetrate as deeply as a FMJ. I am curious if the JHP have enough oomph to either brake/deflect past bone and keep goin. It's the old 'fast n light' vs 'slow n heavy' argument. :rolleyes:

I'll say. Assuming that the bullet offers 'reliable' expansion, that's one heckuva little load right there!
I forget the kind of tip it is called but it's a lead flat top kind of tip. Bullet feels nose heavy for a .32 ACP.

http://www.hornady.com/store/25-Auto-35-gr-XTP/
It might just be the design of the bullet itself, I've just been told that Hornady would expand more reliable then Speer or Fiocchi.

The Hornady is a 35 JHP but at what velocity?
This is the same Hornady ammo demonstrated in gel block above?

The Hornady is a 35 JHP but at what velocity?
This is the same Hornady ammo demonstrated in gel block above?
Yes the same as in the gel block photo.
They usually run at around 900+ Fps.

Yes the same as in the gel block photo.
They usually run at around 900+ Fps.
Yes that's the one I see that Natchez Shooting Supplies sells this.

Yes that's the one I see that Natchez Shooting Supplies sells this.
This winter I might get some and do some tests through clothing into water, I'm curious how those little buggers will fair.

This winter I might get some and do some tests through clothing into water, I'm curious how those little buggers will fair.
This load is only 100 fps more than the standard load but is much lighter at 35 grains vs. the standard 50 grain .25 ACP.

This load is only 100 fps more than the standard load but is much lighter at 35 grains vs. the standard 50 grain .25 ACP.
Yes I know, but I haven't seen any tests done regarding clothing penetration and expansion with a 35g JHP. I guess I will have to play around with them.

Yes I know, but I haven't seen any tests done regarding clothing penetration and expansion with a 35g JHP. I guess I will have to play around with them.
Post your results when you get them.

Might not be for a few weeks after this semester ends but I'll give it a shot. No pun intended. :P