[HSMITH]

I just today got some Thunderheads by Penn Bullets in the mail from a fellow member here that sent them to me to test. Thanks Tim!!!!

They are a 270 grain nominal (mine are 266ish and consistent) and sized to .4525". They are round, consistent and well cast in every respect. Hard? Like woodpecker lips. These bullets are HARD, dunno the BHN but would guess them at 20+. Meplat is .444"!!!!!!! Talk about a load with some "WHACK" on game!!

I have some loaded up in a rather brisk load for the Smith & Wesson guns, would be a starter "heavy" for a Ruger and a serious no go in the SAA types. Hope to shoot some in the next couple days and see how they shoot for me. An after action will be filed I promise.

BTW, if you non handloaders want to try stuff like this there are custom ammunition makers out there that will load whatever you want, from mild to wild!! You don't have to order a gazillion either, quantities can be as small as 20 rounds. If you need a referral let me know, I can get you in touch with a guy that will set you up with what you want.

http://www.thehighroad.org./attachment.php?s=&postid=675761

[HSMITH]

These things FILL the cylinder. Check this out


http://www.thehighroad.org./attachment.php?s=&postid=675765

[Sisco]

Looking forward to your range report!

[sm]

Whoa !!
I like! Nice pics btw.
[next time you pm me give me more dope H]

[Black Snowman]

Those are some scarry looking wad cutters. Are they hollow base?

[mtnbkr]

I have the 38/357 version. I couldn't get them to shoot accurately out of my GP100 at the recommended load levels. 230grs is just too heavy I guess :D

Chris

[Quantrill]

They look very similiar to the Lyman moulds #429348 (which I have and cast) and #429352. They are, of course, for a .44. Looks like somebody adapted them for use in a .45. waiting to hear how they work out. Quantrill

[WESHOOT2]

If one searches around (here? or the 1911 Forum?) one will find a prior post of investigatory load data and actual tested performance.

Those bullets are cool.


www.pennbullets.com

A good guy.........

[Kamicosmos]

One heck of a crimp on those!


They do look All Business though.

[mtnbkr]

Hey Weshoot2,

Do you have any load recommendations for the 357mag version that uses powders slower than Unique? He only had Unique data and I think these bullets could work in my 357 if I can get them going fast enough.

Chris

[HSMITH]

AHA!!!!! HERE (http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46455) is a link to the thread I found on THR that had a link to the 1911 forum with the load data and testing results, say that 5 times fast. VERY impressive WESHOOT2!!! I am comforted that my appraisal of the bullets is essentially the same as someone with such extensive experience also. VERY good cast bullets are more art than science for sure. Penn is doing it right on these.

One heck of a crimp on those!

I have learned that a big solid crimp is necessary for the most consistent performance with handgun ammunition. Not enough to damage the bullet at all mind you, but as heavy as you can get without buckling cases and damaging bullets is "just right" IMO. The slower the powder and the heavier the loads the more important this becomes. Properly sized cases of course are necessary or the crimp means very little.

[Delmar]

Wow-looks like you're tossing soup cans out of the muzzle:what:

[Johnny Guest]

Thanks for the preliminary report - - I'll look forward to reading results of your testing and load data.

Many years ago, I bought a used Lyman two cavity 454424 mould which drops bullets at 276 gr, using a wheel weight/linotype alloy. This bullet has a large meplat, but nothing like the Thunderheads you illustrate.

I've used these bullets in two Ruger Blackhawks, a custom M28 conversion to .45 Colt, three different Colt SAAs, and my current Mountain Gun. They are a joy to shoot at long range. Is that a Mountain Gun in your illustrations? I'm very interested in how the full wadcutter design behaves at long range.

Best,
Johnny

[larryw]

I'm afraid I already know the anwser to this, but any guesses on how these would feed in a lever gun (that digests everything I feed it to date)?

I'd also be very interested in hearing about the crimp, too much vs not enough, etc. That's one thing I still fight with and after looking at these I don't think I get enough crimp.

[HSMITH]

Johnny, that is a 25-5 6.5" gun, 79-80ish vintage and VERY clean. I would love to have a 45 Colt Mountain Gun, that is a superb packing gun. I tore up a 44 Mag MG way back when, sold it off and still miss it.

I plan on shooting them out to 25 yards at first, and when it warms up get out a little further. 50 and 100 yards would be nice.

Larry, I don't have a lot of experience with pistol caliber leverguns but I am not very hopeful that they would feed. On the positive side they are hard and that means "slick", the corners are radiused also. Were I thinking about it I would ask the maker, Penn bullets, and see what they have to say. I would probably order some too just because I am stubborn and have to prove most things to myself even after getting good advise....

The crimps. That load pictured is (censored by me) of H110, getting toward the upper end of what can be used in the Smith without shaking the gun loose. H110 and other powders at the slower end are "hard" to get burning well when compared to the faster powders, hence the reason for Magnum primers, but also helped by heavy bullet pull building pressures faster and more uniformly. ALL powders are affected by pressure. With higher pressures burning rates are increased, temperatures are increased and burns more complete. With heavy crimps, within reason, we create a situation that is favorable for consistently hot high pressure burn of the powder by making the bullet harder to push from the case . The key word here is "consistent". If you run hot loads you need to reduce them before crimping harder, but with midrange and lower loads you can crank them down without concern. Here is a pic of some additional examples in 357 and 38, from left to right: Heavy load of Blue Dot with a 125 Rem SJHP, the hard crimp made ingnition consistent without a magnum primer and tightened groups from 4"+ to less than 2" at 25 yards with me on the handle and open sights. This is a super accurate fast load, true 357 magnum performance. The next load is a Speer 125 JHP over a nuclear charge of H110, these things are WILD!!! These use a magnum primer and with less crimp I had a bullet starting to pull from the case after 5 shots in a K-frame 4" 357. If recoil was any worse I would need an undersize sizer to help hold the bullets in place. They are super clean burning but need more testing to see what the accuracy is like. These first two loads are crimped HARD because they have to be. The third load is a 140 SWC I cast myself. It is sitting on top of 3 grains of Clays and a WSP primer. I crimp tight enough that the bullet is very securely held, and then "play" with crimping tighter and softer and see what effect it has on accuracy. You might be surprised if you have an accurate gun and a good recipe and test this way. Your star load may have superstar potential. The fourth load is a 158 I cast myself also and it uses the same recipe as the 140. It was crimp adjusted the same way as the 140. If you don't want to do the testing or don't feel it is necessary just crimp them down hard, it works better in most all instances than a light crmp.


http://www.thehighroad.org./attachment.php?s=&postid=676761

[Black Snowman]

If you don't want to do the testing or don't feel it is necessary just crimp them down hard, it works better in most all instances than a light crimp.

As a general rule this has been my experiance as well. Particularly with the slower powders like 2400 and H-110.

[Gordon]

Think I'll order some of those for my custom newservice with it's douglass heavy barrel. Ought to add to it's "ultimate "image. Think I'll use Unique in auto rim cases!:)

[HSMITH]

I got out and shot a few of the Thunderheads today. They ARE as good as they look. Accuracy was nice for sure. The bullets were running out of lube though in my 6.5" gun with the load I was shooting, and the last inch and a half of the barrel was starting to show a little leading at round 20. The load was warm, but not hot. They cut PERFECT holes, BIG round holes!! The way they hit should make them a fantastic game bullet. I still have some different recipes I want to try but I can tell you not that you won't be disappointed with the bullets if you buy some.

[larryw]

HSMITH, thanks for the pics. My heavy crimps look like your "nuclear" load's and I thought that step was awfully hard on the brass; I've always wanted to put on a pretty crimp, like the ones you put on those Thunderheads.

Recently, I've started using a Lee Factory Crimp Die instead of the Redding die I had been using. I'm finding that it puts a good crimp on, but more importantly, seems to tighten the neck tension, so my max H110 44 Mag loads shoot much better and SD is down.

I sent an email to Penn Bullets and got a speedy reply back: they're working on 44 bullets (and 41), but these things take time and money. He had one customer who was able to run the 45s through both a Marlin and Winchester lever gun, but another couldn't: data is limited. So as soon as they're available, I'll order some and see (oh drat: work work work :D). I am curious how these will run as max loads in a 20" bbl as you were running out of lube after 6.5".

From the looks of it, these things must hit like a train (would probably stop the train in its tracks).

[HSMITH]

Larry, don't assume since my gun used the lube up that yours will too, my gun has very large throats and it blows a lot of lube off in the cylinder before it gets to the forcing cone. I should have noted that, sorry.

You can HEAR these things hit the target and the backer cardboard.....

On the crimps; I believe that performance is paramount and brass life is secondary. I still get several loadings out of my 357 brass crimping that hard. You can anneal the necks and get another couple loads most times as well if you want to. Don't worry about abusing brass, they make more every day and you are still saving a PILE by loading your own hotrods. Price some Garretts or some Cor-Bon next time you feel bad about working a case hard....

[larryw]

I fully agree what you say about the brass, but doing that didn't feel right as all other loads I've seen had the nice taper without the step. Hey, we gotta keep Starline in business, right?

Love shooting those big bullets at far off targets, especially when the backdrop is mud: Bang, thwap, splat. :D

[JackOfTrades]

I bought some of those a couple years ago. Worked up loads in my Ruger Redhawk. These are HEAVY loads - do NOT use in anything except Ruger or TC guns! (Most of my loads will turn a Colt or S&W into a hand grenade ...)

Use Starline brass - the best there is.
2400 powder - works very well for all midrange magnum loads
WLP primer - works most consistently

Load 1: 19.8 gr. (1.5cc). Ave MV = 1120 fps.
Load 2: 21.7 gr. (1.6cc). Ave MV = 1210 fps. Do NOT increase charge more!

Also, must use a good strong heavy crimp! I use all Lee equipment and their crimper die is second to none.

These bullets are .452 and 270 gr.; these loads are quite accurate also. And can see the holes in the paper at 50 yds. w/o spotter scope!

[Balog]

So, any more info on whether or not these function well in lever guns?

[WESHOOT2]

Any meat-takers?

[Gewehr98]

I'm curious how they'd do in both .44 Special and .44 Magnum revolvers. And then maybe one of those new Henry .44 Magnum rifles, meat-taker/deer rifle, etc. :D

[HSMITH]

Gewehr, not currently listed. Up above in WESHOOT2 post there is a link to the Penn website. Call them up, I found them to be very co urteous and helpful, and honest in that they won't tell you what you want to hear if it isn't true......

[Third_Rail]

I have to say I damn near shat myself at the size of those bullets. Wow... out of a revolver, they must cause serious hurt to any targets.

[HSMITH]

LOL, if you think those are large check this out. These are 350 grain bullets, shown next to the everyday 250 grain bullet. Notice that they come out within .010" of the end of the cylinder!!!!

http://www.thehighroad.org./attachment.php?s=&postid=816443

[Third_Rail]

:what:

[tc300mag1]

Wow i want to try some of them out

[HSMITH]

Those are typical 350's, for a 45-70!!! The ones in the picture are Bonus Bullets, sent to me to test by a gracious fella over on the S&W forum, thanks Phil!!!!!

You can size them down easily for use in 45 handguns if needed.

[pvtschultz]

I'm new here but been around a Ruger site for a while. I have ordered up a bunch of these thunderheads and am looking for a good recipe and any meat taking stories involving the 270 gr Penn marvels. My gun is a 7.5" NMBH, .4525" throats. I am hoping to get about 1200 fps with consistant ignition and above average accuracy while staying just south of the 30,000 CUP range if at all possible (for the sake of my hands). Anyone have anything that they would like to share?

Thank you.

[BigJakeJ1s]

I've shot some Buffalo Bore 45 colt loads with LBT 325 grain LFN bullets (advertised 1325 fps) in a ruger vaquero (not the new model) and a marlin 1894 cowboy rifle before. Wow!

I only load CAS loads myself so far, hadn't worked up the nerve to try anything like that yet! One of these days...

Andy

[pvtschultz]

Come on now, someone has got to have some hunting stories by now with these bullets. I hope that I'm not the first to report a deer kill this fall with 'em!