[fatfreddiescat]

IN YOUR OPINION, Which is the all-around safest condition in which to carry concealed?

C1:
Condition 1 is the condition that many police carry their weapon – that is what is euphemistically called “cocked and locked.” Quite simply, cocked and locked means you flick the safety (if you have one, most 1911's do, a lot of auto-loaders don't) pull the trigger (purposely or negligently) and the damn thing is gonna go BANG.

C2:
Considered a more dangerous method of carry, Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

C3:
Condition 3 (on a semi-auto) means that you have a magazine inserted but not chambered. To use the weapon, the round must be “racked.”

Most modern semi-autos (think Glock, as the product represents over 50% of recent hand gun sells) do not have a safety lever. They rely on your good sense and 100% adherent to good “finger” control and use practices.

ALWAYS TREAT THE WEAPON AS IF IT IS IN CONDITION ONE – NO EXCEPTION, ALWAYS!

So, please take the poll, and leave a reason/opinion. Maybe we can shed some 'new light' on an old question.

thanks,
F

[REAPER4206969]

There has never been a debate on what method to carry amongst knowledgeable Gunmen. There are no credible people that recommend anything other than C1 carry for defensive/offensive use. None. Zero.<--That's a period.

[BlayGlock]

There has never been a debate on what method to carry amongst knowledgeable Gunmen. There are no credible people that recommend anything other than C1 carry for defensive/offensive use. None. Zero.<--That's a period.


This. People who recommend carrying a 1911 in anything other than C1 looses all credibility. Other weapon systems, may require a different manual of arms.

[cesarv]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many handguns can be locked, but not cocked. One such example is the Beretta 92FS. Once you chamber a round, the safety activates the decocker and now you have a hammer down on a chambered round. You are still in condition one, but you are "not cocked and locked."

[481]

Since the defensive pistol is an implement whose mission demands that it must always be immediately operable, and often at less than at a moment's notice, carrying it charged and ready to fire is the only reasonable option since there is no promise or guarantee that one will have their second hand available when it is needed in order to bring it on-line.

If a pistol is incapable of being carried safely with a round in the chamber*, I ain't carryin' the damned thing.




* either a SA in "cocked and locked" condition or a DA/DAO with the hammer down on a loaded chamber

[cleardiddion]

I carry mine with a round in the pipe and with hammer down and safety off.
Makes sense since I have a DA/SA pistol.
And since it works just as well in C2 (for me) as in C1 I don't see why I should do any different.

[9mmepiphany]

Your poll is a bit flawed as you have not specified which action types you are applying the conditions to. Different action types have different correct conditions of readiness.

While C2 is seriously flawed on a SAO pistol, it is the norm in a DA/SA or DAO platform

[AKPastor]

No I don't think there will be a consensus - too many threads here already show that there are strong opinions. I think each one should carry as they believe is best based on their firearm, etc. I carry C1 - and I have my reasons. C2 and C3 carriers have their reasons too - and I don't think anyone is going to be convinced from their preference - especially when we get more diatribe than reasoned discussion.

[David E]

ALWAYS TREAT THE WEAPON AS IF IT IS IN CONDITION ONE – NO EXCEPTION, ALWAYS!

Sorry, no. I treat all guns as LOADED, regardless of the ready condition.

[Rexster]

I think C1 carry IS the current consensus for 1911/BHP carry, although unanimous it is not. It really does not matter; carrying a gun is an individual thing, and the "condition" of the chamber and hammer an individual choice, unless one is carrying under a set of rules/regs that specifies such things.

I have the belief that anyone who is uncomfortable with a cocked hammer should carry a DA weapon, and anyone uncomfortable with a chambered round under the hammer should carry a revolver, but I don't impose my beliefs on others. though I may make gentle recommendations. I use DA pistols and revolvers myself, though not because I am afraid of C1 with a 1911.

The only time I will let the choice of another concern me is whether to work with someone who chooses C3. I work in an armed profession, with a gunfight possible at any moment, and would not want to partner with someone who carried C3. The nature of policing is that hands-on fights can go to guns instantly. Of course, NONE of my colleagues toting 1911s and BHPs, to my knowledge, use anything but C1 these days. I remember some now-retired guys that used C2 and C3. The 1911 goes 'way back in the PD that employs me, though primary duty handguns for uniform wear have been specified DA .40's since 1997.

[minutemen1776]

For serious work, I prefer C4 ... explosives. :evil:

[PT1911]

your question is flawed, IMO... You ask what is the "safest" way to carry not the best or most practical...

The safest possible way would be completely unloaded with a trigger lock mechanism in place "just in case" they are all loaded after all right? :rolleyes: NOT :scrutiny:

IMO, a gun should never be carried unchambered... it is, for lack of a better word, STUPID!!!!, much like putting gas in your car only when needed, one gallon at a time.

CARRYING a SA loaded with the hammer down is completely safe. Getting the gun into that position, though argued as otherwise, simply isnt. It also gives you just one more strange step before the gun can be put into action

In condition one, the gun is safe (assuming 1911's and the like here...) Barring multiple failures of the design safeties in place the gun can be carried safely AND put into action with the shortest delay.

If someone prefers to carry one way or another, more power to them, but the fact is that of all options, C2 puts you at the greatest risk of making a mistake and C3 takes the longest to deploy when needed.... SO, C1 for me... and decocked for DA/SA guns (still pointed in a safe direction of course.)

[moxie]

Condition one or three, depending on perceived threat level. In Vietnam I was new to the game and carried condition zero or two, depending on perceived threat level. These two conditions seem to have fallen out of favor nowadays.

[Ben86]

I carry a kahr pm9, so I don't have a hammer, I'm not sure if the old conditions apply to me. But, for what it's worth I always carry the gun with a round chambered and in a holster that covers the trigger. I don't see any reason to do otherwise. It seems like the way that is safest for me and most dangerous to the bad guy.

[Shadow 7D]

I have to agree with the NUMEROUS people that point out that there are DIFFERENT manual of arms, for different guns, hence there are different ways to carry pistols that are correct for that gun, but not another

If you have a hodgepodge of guns, and need a standard, then Israeli draw is for you...

[1911Tuner]

There has never been a debate on what method to carry amongst knowledgeable Gunmen. There are no credible people that recommend anything other than C1 carry for defensive/offensive use. None. Zero.<--That's a period.

Well...Not bein' a high-speed/low-drag operator myself...I've carried in all three conditions at one time or another, dependin' on the circumstances. Of course, none of my 1911s and variants have upswept ducktails and extended bells and whistles on'em either. I suppose that means that I won't be taken seriously down at the gun store...

[David E]

I suppose that means that I won't be taken seriously down at the gun store...

For me, it depends on how well you can shoot, not by what you have on your gun.

[orionengnr]

Judging from the results of the poll so far, there is definitely a consensus, and it is a clear one. Almost 80% voted for C-1.

Remember, "consensus" does not necessarily (and in the real world, will almost never) mean "unanimous". Rather, a significant majority, and perhaps the vast majority.

By the way, I checked read about five different definitions of the word "consensus" and what is stated above is a paraphrasing of the "consensus" of those definitions :)

[Ben86]

I forgot to mention something interesting. At my dad's police department, in the early 90's when they first got Glocks, it was common, though not required, for them to carry the guns unchambered. I couldn't believe this. Cops carrying with an empty chamber! That's nuts. But, at that point it was accepted because the Glock didn't have that preventer of all accidents...the safety *sarcasm*

[fatfreddiescat]

I thought that this would provide a somewhat unified position, that would be the heavily weighted response, C1.

I also had anticipated the strange few who can't simply give an opinion, but try to discredit, or challenge either the OP (me) or someone who responds to the question with a reasonable answer, but I didn't think that the 'strange few' would be as prevalent as they have appeared. Example, it was brought to light, that "some handguns can be locked, but not cocked. One such example is the Beretta 92FS"... Well, I don't really include that in the group I would call cantankerous, but it does have a minor derailing effect, as to the goal of the poll. That statement was correct, of course, and I do not think the poster was being mean-spirited, but rather making a judgment call on the structure of the question;

however, folks that responded with "answers" that said: "your question is flawed, IMO... You ask what is the "safest" way to carry not the best or most practical...**(maybe I should have said 'most practical', instead of safest, but then I feel like you might have responded "not most practical, but safest")**

The safest possible way would be completely unloaded with a trigger lock mechanism in place "just in case" they are all loaded after all right?" ....Now I like a joke as well as anyone, and that would fine but it feels like you were being antagonistic. Maybe you forgot to use that </sarcastic> code at the end of the statement?! Or, maybe you really didn't understand the question?! It feels like you did understand, and had decided to throw out a mean-spirited passive-aggressive statement that included "IMO, a gun should never be carried unchambered... it is, for lack of a better word, STUPID!!!!"

I guess that at the right time of day, when the moon and stars are lined up just right, some usually helpful folks just sizzle a fuse, and get mean for a second.

No offense meant, and I hope none taken.

[2ndAmFan]

I usually carry a G 26 and I carry it with one in the chamber. There are too many things that could happen in a LF encounter that might prevent me from racking the slide.

[fatfreddiescat]

Judging from the results of the poll so far, there is definitely a consensus, and it is a clear one. Almost 80% voted for C-1.

Remember, "consensus" does not necessarily (and in the real world, will almost never) mean "unanimous". Rather, a significant majority, and perhaps the vast majority.

By the way, I checked read about five different definitions of the word "consensus" and what is stated above is a paraphrasing of the "consensus" of those definitions :)
Agreed. I have talked to lots of folks about this choice, and I fully believe that practice, education and confidence in the weapon almost dictate that C1 would be the easiest, more practical option.

[PT1911]

The safest possible way would be completely unloaded with a trigger lock mechanism in place "just in case" they are all loaded after all right? :rolleyes: NOT :scrutiny:" ....Now I like a joke as well as anyone, and that would fine but it feels like you were being antagonistic. Maybe you forgot to use that </sarcastic> code at the end of the statement?! Or, maybe you really didn't understand the question?! It feels like you did understand, and had decided to throw out a mean-spirited passive-aggressive statement that included "IMO, a gun should never be carried unchambered... it is, for lack of a better word, STUPID!!!!"

I apologize if my remarks came across as mean spirited or antagonistic, that was definitely not my intention... I was simply trying to convey that some people's "justifications" for their carry method are silly.

In saying that carrying a gun unchambered is stupid I was not attempting to down you in any way or anyone else who has, at this point, chimed in on this thread. In your OP I do not recall seeing what your personal preference was. As such, I am not sure how my remark can be taken as directed at you or antagonistic toward you, but if it came across that way, then I apologize. My point was that IMO, there is absolutely no reason to carry a gun with an empty chamber, ever. If someone is afraid their gun may accidentally go off, then they should either get a different gun or opt for a different method of personal defense as they will simply be carrying a club ( a purposefully designed club or other HTH combat weapon would actually serve them better than an empty gun.) I suppose there are the silly advocates for "passive" gun use that find it advisable to carry an empty gun in hopes that simply brandishing it would do the trick.

I suppose my remark about what is "safest" was a nitpicky if taken completely seriously. In that statement, I was poking fun at how common the word "safe" has become in guns. What is safe, what is not safe...."is a Glock safe? is a 1911 safe? is a SA revolver safe? is a DA revolver safe?....etc" The truth is that any quality made firearm that is made for the purpose of self defense and to be carried is safe to be carried loaded and ready to fire as long as the built in safeties are in place and working order... One example being a 1911 cocked and LOCKED... With the thumb safety in place and a working grip safety, there is no potential for an AD. I suppose one must have some faith in what another man has built, but it is difficult for me to grasp that someone would trust a gun to go bang every time should they need to defend their life and yet, at the same time, not trust the design of the gun to not "just go off."

As to C2, IMO, that is the only somewhat reasonable alternative method of carry for a 1911 as unchambered is useless and chambered with the safety off is unadvisable (to be polite.) My issues with C2 are that 1st, one must manually decock on a live round. This is best accomplished with two hands as most 1911's I have handled do not lend themselves to easily dropping the hammer with one hand and I do not have small hands. As with most things, if it is something you do every day, one is apt to get lazy and that is when accidents happen. The second issue, though less severe than the first, is that the gun is useless until cocked. This, again, is not an easy thing to do with one hand and even harder with a shooting grip... Then, to make things worse, you have the issue of having to accomplish this awkward(that looks to be spelled wrong:confused:) while under extreme pressure... that being, any situation that would justifiably require you to unholster your gun.

I hope this post is found as more informative... I know this comes as long winded, but in answering such a question I do not see how one can give their opinion and not explain the faults in the other methods of carry... especially when those faults are specifically of the safety variety.

And as I stated in my previous post, this is in reference to SA pistols.
In SA/DA pistols, I carry decocked (using the pistol's decocker and pointed in a safe direction of course) and the Long DA pull becomes the only safety I depend on.

[wojownik]

I think the question/poll needs to be refined - what types of pistols are you referring to? 1911s? (I think there was a thread that hashed this to death some time ago).

FWIW, I carry my Sigs in C2, and my 1911 in C1.

[1911Tuner]

As to C2, IMO, that is the only somewhat reasonable alternative method of carry for a 1911 as unchambered is useless

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I don't see Condition 3 as "useless" at all.
Not all situations where a gun has come in handy have been having to beat the drop with a blazing quick-draw, and not all sidearms are carried in areas and situations where the need for a fast draw would be likely. Few of us are facing the same types of scenarios as Israeli commandos on patrol in the Gaza Strip.

As for Condition 2, there are circumstances which make it not only a viable alternative, but a wise one.

[6x6pinz]

Wow so many questions in just one poll

first question was the title Will there EVER be a consensus on C1, C2 or C3 NO

second question is the poll itself Which Condition do you (REALLY) use? C1 for me (always one in the chamber with the pistols I carry)

third question is IN YOUR OPINION, Which is the all-around safest condition in which to carry concealed? the safest is to have a totally empty firearm (not practical but is the "safest")

[sansone]

depends upon the weapon and threat level. In the store my LCP has a chambered round but there is no hammer or safety. Just being DAO makes it safe enough for me. If I am going someplace where the threat is greater, my BHP is chambered, cocked, safety on.. the trigger has no creep and light pull so I feel the safety must be on

[Creature]

Every time I see one of these weapon condition polls, it seems to me that it is usually because the OP has yet to convince him or herself that C1 is actually a safe method of carry.

[moxie]

fatfreddiescat,

I'm not recommending anyone use it except in special circumstances, but you should include Condition Zero in your thinking. Condition 0, for those unfamiliar with it, is round chambered, hammer cocked, and safety OFF (cocked and UNlocked). You are depending on the grip safety and your ability to keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. Sounds scary, but it's the fastest way to bring a pistol into action, and perfectly safe in the hands of a capable shooter in the right circumstances.

[PT1911]

I don't see Condition 3 as "useless" at all.
Not all situations where a gun has come in handy have been having to beat the drop with a blazing quick-draw, and not all sidearms are carried in areas and situations where the need for a fast draw would be likely. Few of us are facing the same types of scenarios as Israeli commandos on patrol in the Gaza Strip.

As for Condition 2, there are circumstances which make it not only a viable alternative, but a wise one.

It is in no way my intention to get into an argument or pissing match with someone I KNOWto be more knowledgeable than myself so I ask the following in all sincerity.

When and When?

I was under the impression in my carrying that I should be able to deploy my gun and put rounds into a threat as quickly as reasonably possible.. perhaps that "reasonably" adds a bit of a gray area, but it seems to me that if the threat is far enough away OR not yet enough of a threat to deserve a shiny new bullet, then retreat is a more viable option.

In the case of As for Condition 2, there are circumstances which make it not only a viable alternative, but a wise one. , I again ask when. For the same reasons stated above it, seems one would want to their gun to be ready as quickly as reasonably possible. Seeing as every method of cocking 1911 is awkward at best, i find it difficult to understand when it would be preferable.. the most common reason I find people justifying their C2 carry is for "safety" in that they somehow doubt the usefullness of the safety mechanisms integrated into the design...

Of course most everything I have said to this point is directed at the 1911 and similar SA designs... when one talks about a DA/SA, like say my CZ SP-01, I prefer decocked (using the guns designed decocker) on a loaded chamber. I suppose that is technically considered C2 if you want to expand the definition to include more than 1911esc designs.

[1911Tuner]

When and When?

When I was younger and outdoor-ish, I often carried a 1911 pistol in some pretty nasty conditions. Wishing to afford the best protection for the pistol, I carried in Condition 2 so that I could still ready it with one hand and keep the crud out of the lockwork. I very often hamstrung myself even further by using a flap holster in order to make the gun as impervious to foreign material as possible while still retaining fairly rapid access and one hand operation should the need arise. Slower? Yes...but not as slow as you might think with just a little practice and knowing how. Cocking the hammer after the draw isn't the way. Cocking it while it's still in the holster or just as the grip is obtained...is.

The plain, simple truth is that...as private citizens...only a small percentage of us have a real or defined need to even carry a pistol at all. We carry because we can and because it's better to be prepared for that once-in-a-lifetime nightmare in which we'll actually need to shoot for blood. For those who do have a need to carry a gun, the best advice is to carry two guns.

As for Condition 3...That's also a matter of choice/when and where...but most of the time, I carry a double-action revolver for those low-risk places and times. If I'm headed into a higher-risk area to conduct business, I go with a cocked and locked 1911. Sometimes, I even carry a single-action revolver...mostly when I'm at home and knocking around the property.

[PT1911]

I can understand that perspective... I hadnt put the external environment into perspective as an influence which method of carry to use... In such cases that i would worry about crudding up my (insert model here) i would probably opt for another, less sensitive, design. As i understand that is not an option for many, other modes of carry are a viable option.


I appreciate your response.

[Nushif]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but many handguns can be locked, but not cocked. One such example is the Beretta 92FS. Once you chamber a round, the safety activates the decocker and now you have a hammer down on a chambered round. You are still in condition one, but you are "not cocked and locked."

Depends on the gun. All the guns I own are either DAO or can be carried in Condition one. Taurus for instance makes a 92 that can be carried cocked and locked.

[Deaf Smith]

How about condition ZERO... that is Cocked and UNLOCKED?

It has been used before by certian military organizations.

Deaf

[redbullitt]

I answered with carrying a DA/SA handgun. Used to carry a Jericho, and I liked with with a round in the tube and the hammer down. However, if I were packing a 1911 style etc Id go cocked with one in the tube and the safety on.

I WILL say that the main thing to consider is what you are comfortable with and what you practice with. I have seen some guys rack the slide on the draw and they were darn good at it...
That said, I am carrying a striker pistol now lol.

[cesarv]

Depends on the gun. All the guns I own are either DAO or can be carried in Condition one. Taurus for instance makes a 92 that can be carried cocked and locked.
Well yes, that is why I said "some guns." I gave the Beretta 92FS as an example because that's what I carried when I was in the military. They teach that the Beretta M9 only has 3 conditions, 1, 3, and 4. They called one in the chamber and safety on (thus de-cocked) as condition 1, and we never carried without the safety on.

[tipoc]

I'm in agreement with 1911 Tuner. I often carry condition 1 but have carried, or kept the gun about me, in 2 or 3 and the need or
situation arose.

I've never carried a gun in a holster, pocket, bag, glove compartment, etc. cocked and unlocked.

tipoc

[fatfreddiescat]

Every time I see one of these weapon condition polls, it seems to me that it is usually because the OP has yet to convince him or herself that C1 is actually a safe method of carry.
This certainly factors into my personal habit, which has been C3. I have had and carried handguns for quite a while, and I think a lot of us old(er) goats liked the feeling of having a weapon at hand for defense. As the times have changed drastically in the last 15-20 years, so has the opinion re C3 vs. C1. I have been working into more time at C1, and it seems justified more now than ever. I think this is because, IMHO, that the odds of encountering a BG up close and real, have increased over time, and therefore, so should the (inherent) need to be as quick as possible in the effort to defeat this BG. I practice at my local range very frequently, and again, as I used to do when I had decided to start carrying again, I spend a lot of time while I'm at home carrying in C1. I call it practice, and I find that is also a confirming method that will lead to a more comfortable overall experience regarding carrying C1 all the time.

So, yes, I think that overcautiousness as well as the general feeling towards the 'newer' blase attitude that young guns seem to have about concern for life has started to bring logic and an irrefutable mandate to morph from a C3 to a C1 practice. I have thought for some time that it is a less than even odds thing to carry without one chambered, and I am also thinking that it's time to get used to that mode in my daily practices.

[fatfreddiescat]

HEY PT1911....et al Thanks for expanding on your thoughts about C1. I have responded to Creature before I saw this post, and it is in answer to a possible lack of confidence with this weapon, along with the 'changing of the times' in general that brought me to this quandry. 20 years ago, it seemed to me that merely having the firepower within reach offered a serious feeling of being able to exert defense. I think that today's values bring a need of a different approach.

I agree that being 'first' is critical to outcomes. More now than it used to be. In the 60's, 70's and 80's I carried. Some of that time I was in Texas. I was born there. A LOT of folks carried then and there. In and of itself, just knowing that the guy who just cut you off in traffic probably was ALSO packin' certainly influenced ones idea of flipping the other driver off, or otherwise starting any trouble.

I believe "the times, they are a-changin'" and the need for speed as well as accurateness is more important than ever. So, I have increased my calls to the local range, (50 shots, 49 within an 8" circle, or better, at 50' ~ I'm trying for 50 out of 50 in a 6" circle) and I've also taken to carrying C1 more often. I think its gonna be like a lot of things ~ practice makes perfect, or at least better!

[swinokur]

As someone pointed out, there is a huge difference between SAFE and EFFECTIVE. Unchambered is safer but totally ineffective because in many scenarios, they are over in seconds and you may not be afforded an opportunity to even chamber a round. Yep-safer for sure. Effective? Hardly. IMO

[uspJ]

If I'm going to carry a SA gun it will be in condition 1. It is faster and easier for me to sweep a safety than it is to cock the hammer.

I have used condition 4 no mag, gun unloaded when doing dry fire practice.

[1911Tuner]

Unchambered is safer but totally ineffective because...

"Totally" ineffective is a pretty wide brush to paint with. It's still a gun, and it still has ammunition in the magazine...and it can still be readied in three seconds or less. The Israeli Defense Force manages to be pretty effective with Condition 3. They do that by being aware of their surroundings.

Condition 3 was SOP for the US Cavalry in 1918...in the middle of The War to End All Wars...unless action was iminent. At that point, Condition 1 was authorized. When the emergency had passed, the pistol was to be returned to the holster with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Not all gunfights start with a fast draw. The main issue is to be alert so that you can see trouble coming as early as possible. As a savvy old man-killer once noted:

"The fastest draw is to have the gun in your hand before the shooting starts."

If you're in Injun Country...with no disrespect intended to Native Americans...Condition 1 is the best option. Trotting down to the Piggly Wiggly at noon for milk and bread doesn't really call for it.

Location. Location. Location.

[swinokur]

I'm reminded of the video of the jewelry store robbery where the owner was killed because he had no chance to rack the slide to shoot at the perps because he was scuffling with them.. That left a huge impression on me. My point was in some situations you won't even have time to rack the slide and since you can't choose the time or manner of an attack, condition 1 seems the most effective, if not safest. A 1911 is pretty durn safe in condition 1, but you knew that already Tuner. :D

I don't like to compare a military MOA to the civilian world. I have never been in combat but think you'd have a bit more advance warning than an attack in the civilian world.

My .02 YMMV

[harmon rabb]

This is pretty stupid, really. The only argument is whether to carry a gun with one in the tube or not. Beyond that, carry the gun how it's designed to be carried -- 1911's are designed to be carried condition 1, Glocks are designed to be carried condition 2, etc. Carry a 1911 with the hammer down is dumb.

Very few guns are designed to be carried in both condition 1 and condition 2 (some FN's are, some H&K's are, some CZ's are). If we're discussing those guns, I think it's just a personal choice. I carry my cz-82 a lot, and it's designed to be carried either condition 1 or condition 2. I carry it condition 2 because it doesn't have a grip safety, which would make me comfortable to carry it in condition 1.

[1911Tuner]

I'm reminded of the video of the jewelry store robbery where the owner was killed because he had no chance to rack the slide

He was in "Injun Country" as is any pharmacist, liquor store operator, bank teller, and police officer.


1911's are designed to be carried condition 1,

No...They're not. The 1911 was designed to be carried in any of four states of readiness.

It was designed to allow it to be safely placed in Condition 1...not specifically to be carried that way. How could it be? The first prototypes that were submitted didn't have a manual safety. That was added on request by the U.S. Cavarly so that the gun could be placed on-safe and reholstered while the mounted trooper regained control of an unruly horse without shooting himself or the horse. So, the thumb safety is actually there for reholstering under stress. Even then, the thinking heads understood that a man in the middle of a fight may forget to remove his finger from the trigger during that task...something that Gaston Glock apparently neglected to consider...evidenced by the number of unintentional discharges that occur while holstering the piece.

Moreover, the half-cock was, by design and intent, considered to be a safety. It was referred to as such in the 1910 patents by Browning himself...along with instruction for lowering the hammer to half-cock or "safety" position with one hand. Go and look it up.

The pistol gives us a choice, according to the threat level...real or perceived. As the state of readiness goes up, the level of safety goes down. The gun is statistically less safe in C-1 as in C-2...and less safe in C-2 as in C-3. No loaded gun can ever be completely safe, and it can only be as safe or as dangerous as the hand that happens to be on it.

[swinokur]

Moreover, the half-cock was, by design and intent, considered to be a safety. It was referred to as such in the 1910 patents by Browning himself...along with instruction for lowering the hammer to half-cock or "safety" position with one hand. Go and look it up.This is correct. I got into a discussion with someone on a forum and he stated what Tuner just told you. I didn't believe him and actually surfed over to the US Patent office and read JMB's original patent. He referred to it as the safety area if memory serves me correctly. Learn something new every day. I did read the old Army MOA for the 1911 (1941 or thereabouts) and it never references half cock, but JMB certainly did. It basically allows C1 or Condition 3 IIRC. My memory may be cloudy however.

The patent also had a mag detent so the trigger could not be pulled with no mag in the weapon. I guess the Army didn't adopt that.

[1911Tuner]

swinokur...It's referred to as the "Safety Position." This may not be verbatim, but it reads:

"With the pistol at full cock, should it be desired to lower the hammer to the safety position without contacting the firing pin..." and it goes on to describe the method for doing so with one hand. Since Condition 2 allows the hammer to contact the firing pin, the half-cock is the only position remaining. So, the half-cock is a de facto safety, and it's actually a very good one. The hammer and sear are interlocked, and neither one can move. The trigger is likewise locked. If that doesn't fit the criteria for a safety...I'd like to know what does.

The cavalry didn't trust the average soldier to do that under stress, and requested the thumb safety...technically called the "Slide locking manual safety."

[coloradokevin]

Will there be a consensus on this issue? No... but is there ever a consensus on any gun-related topic?

I'd say that nearly every professional doesn't even consider this an issue that is open to debate. If you are carrying your handgun for self-defense, you need to have a round chambered. Most non-enthusiasts who are also gun carrying professionals don't even speak in terms of Condition 1, 2, and 3 these days, most probably because the 1911 is no longer the "standard". There are far more Glocks being carried for self-defense these days, and the standard method of carry for this firearm is in a holster with a round in the chamber. Period. You will never see this issue debated in any police academy, or any other reputable training facility that I'm aware of.

I've seen this forum beat to death ideas such as the "Israeli Draw" method, and other such methods of carrying a pistol without a round chambered. But, you'll never find a police officer who is carrying their weapon without a round chambered... we do it safely every day, and so can other people.

[swinokur]

Thank you sir. I am once again enlightened (again)

:p

[1911Tuner]

I'd say that nearly every professional doesn't even consider this an issue that is open to debate.

Kevin...Nobody is arguing for Condition 3 any more than they're arguing against Condition 1. The question seems to mostly be whether or not it's the only real option. My stance is that the others are viable, depending on the circumstances. For instance...when I'm at home, I'm perfectly comfortable with C3. The pistol is instantly acessible, and can be brought into the equation in a second. On the other hand...If the day's travels are going to take me into a shady part of town, or I have to go out at midnight...I ratchet up to C1. If I'm required to go out to check a dog alert...I usually carry a revolver with me. Sometimes that revolver is a single-action.

The three quick conditions are options that are situation dependent and nothing more.

If Joe is only comfortable with C1 no matter what, then it's there for him at his choice. If Jack is okay with C2 or C3...those are options as well.

[pfraser]

coloradokevin, there was a situation here recently involving a police officer who lost his firearm during a scuffle. The perp pulled the trigger on the officer and when nothing happened the officer retrieved his firearm, chambered a round and arrested the perp.

Some Police certainly do carry their firearms in C3. I'm glad too, given that recently another officer shot himself in the face while retrieving his firearm from secure storage.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I believe Condition One is the best combination of speed into action and safety. It is the only way I would carry one on my person. But there are situations in which Two and Three can be used, e.g., home defense, where (hopefully) you have time and distance on your side. One of this gun's positive attributes is the ability to select readiness modes.

[1911Tuner]

One of this gun's positive attributes is the ability to select readiness modes.

Bingo.

[BlindJustice]

Didn't vote, my method of carry is

a 1911 loaded mag - empty chamber - but keep the hammer cocked
with the safety off, so if I do draw the weapon it's easier to rack the slide.

Jeff Cooper and situational awareness

If the COndition goes up it's move to Condition One

Randall

[TimboKhan]

Some Police certainly do carry their firearms in C3. I'm glad too, given that recently another officer shot himself in the face while retrieving his firearm from secure storage.

Well, I don't necessarily care how anyone, to include the police, carry their firearms, but wouldn't shooting yourself in the face be indicative of unsafe gun handling as opposed to blaming the accident in whole or in part to some goofy condition system? As someone said earlier, treat every gun as if it is loaded, regardless of your carry condition of choice.

For the record, I carry a Glock, with the chamber loaded. Sometimes I carry a Taurus 605, with the cylinder full. In my living room, there is s S7W 66-I with the cylinder full. Sitting next to me at this computer desk is a Ruger P90, with one up the spout, safety on. Next to my bed is a Ruger SR9 with one up the spout and the safety on. In my bedroom closet is a loaded AR15 with the safety on, and in my hall closet is a Marlin 1895 in .357 with a loaded chamber at half-cock. Each one of these guns has a slightly different manual of arms, but I personally want a bullet in the chamber in any gun that I might use defensively. You might also note that there are a heck of a lot of loaded guns in my house. I treat every gun I own, and by god, I mean EVERY SINGLE ONE, as if it is loaded.

[BluEyes]

C2 because my two carry guns are a DA/SA decocker-only or a DAO.

Neither has a way to "lock" it, so C2 in this case is faster than C1 (no safety to deactivate) :neener:

[orionengnr]

What's really hilarious is that someone voted for C4... :neener:

Just goes to show, that no matter what options you offer, someone will pick them. I'm always amused by polls where people will vote for "I really can't make up my mind"...if you don't have an opinion, why do you vote?

[glockman19]

My most common form of carry is a S&W 442/642 and it is always ready. When I carry my Glock 26 or 1911 it is generally without a round chambered unless I am in an area where I feel threatend then it is condition 1..but again I prefer the hammerless j-frame just for this reason.