Concealed Carry Conundrum. . . Long, but need Suggestions?

[Shake]

I currently work for a state government agency and have a concealed carry permit.

Due to a legal opinion by the attorney general's office, a state human resource rule was changed which forbade employees from carrying a firearm while working in a state building, a state vehicle, etc. It was in contradiciton to the concealed carry law which allowed permitees to carry a concealed firearm. The previous rule stated:

Employees shall not carry firearms in any facility owned or operated by the state, or in any state vehicle, or at any time or any place while on state business. . . Employees who violate this rule shall be subject to disciplinary action

The new rule does not mention firearms.

My goal is to be able to carry 24/7, but to this point, I haven't "dared" for fear of being discovered. I feel I'm on sound legal ground, but I know that if I'm "caught" there will be repercussions. People in my line of work aren't the most gun-friendly people in the world to put it mildly.

My problem is coming up with some mode of carry that will allow me easy access to my firearm, but also minimize the risk of being discovered (join the club, I know).

I've thought a lot about it and have almost resigned myself to some sort of off-body carry. The reason being that some of the people I work with are "touchy". You know the type that prod, jab, poke, when they get the chance? These are the people that will stand by you during a conversation and give you an elbow after a joke, or whatever. Seems a little stupid, but some people just can't keep their hands to themselves (I think we all know the type). I'm worried that one of them will jab, elbow, whatever, at just the wrong spot and hit my weapon. It's easy to tell a stranger "sorry, it's my pager/phone/blood sugar monitor/etc.", but these people know me well. Explanations like that wouldn't fly.

Drawbacks to off-body carry are probably not worth listing as we are all aware of them (speed, access to the gun, securing the weapon, etc.).

Compounding the problem is the fact that I ride public transportation to and from work. I do spend time on the streets waiting for buses and during transfers (increasing my need for carry). Ideally in that situation I would want to carry on my person.

My questions. . .

What would you carry if you were me?

How would you carry if you were me?

I'm 6'4", 201 lbs., wear mostly casual, anything from khakis (Docker's type) and button shirts to "nice" jeans. Pretty much all tucked in except winter when I wear the occasional sweater. I carry a backpack and a daytimer. Can't really change my mode of dress (if anything I would have to go MORE dressy rather than less).

I have no secure area of my own at work (cubicle, some lockable cabinets with flimsy locks). In other words no place I could lock up my weapon if I had to.

I'm willing to make whatever cash outlay I have to in order to get a setup I can use (i.e. new gun, holster, carrying case, whatever). I'm currently carrying an H&K USP compact which would be too large for on-body carry at my job.

Any suggestions, experiences, or advice would be greatly appreciated. . .

Shake

[mummac]

I asked the same question to my uncle who is a long time undercover detective. He suggested an ankle holster. That's what he uses. I don't like that idea because it would seem hard to get to quickly unless you are sitting down. Just thought I'd share his experienced opinion.

[artherd]

Thunderwear. Nobody's going to jab you 'there' (and even if they do, just give them a knowing wink, and mouth 'oh, yeah' ;)

Seriously, it's supposedly not as fast to draw as an external or shoulder holster, but it's nothing as bad as an ankle either.

[clubsoda22]

If i were in your position i'd carry my bersa thunder in a smart carry holster. www.smartcarry.com.

Not as quick as a belt holster, but not likely to be found either, and you can have your shirt tucked in.

Since i'm a nursing student and hospitals are generally not open to the idea of their staff carrying, i've pretty much resigned myself to that method of carry when i get my permit. I have a Fist K4 tuckable IWB holster for it now,but i'd be afraid of having someone brush against me as well. Save that for off work carry. Working as an EMT i can't do it period. I'd loose my licence and it is illegal for me to carry when on duty. Not only could i get in trouble but so could my company. I can't even carry pepper spray on duty.

[mummac]

I can't even carry pepper spray on duty.

To me, that seems horribly wrong.

[clubsoda22]

tell me about it. On the upside, i can wear a kevlar vest! :rolleyes:

They give us uniforms that make us look like cops too. Might as well put a bullseye on me.

In my regular life i can carry pepperspray, but god forbid i can carry it when i have to go into a crackhouse to get a guy overdosing on PCP carving bible verses into his arm with a pocketknife. :rolleyes: The state couldn't have that.

[Double Naught Spy]

Ankle carry is not terribly fast or convenient. Unless your pants ride down below the sole of your shoe, you will flash people during ankle carry. On some people, the bottom leather peeks out while walking and definitely flashes while sitting and the pant cuffs ride up.

Keep in mind that law enforcement often uses ankle carry, but they don't have to worry about the legalities or job issues of getting spotted and when they carry, it is usually as a BUG and not as a primary.

[Texas Bob]

If you go with the "docker style" pants, buy the ones with the "pleats." With this you can ccw a PM9 in a Hedley front pocket holster and it looks like you have a PDA or a wallet in your pocket when sitting down, it dissapears while standing. I wear royal robins at work and ccw a P9 in my right front pocket in an uncle mikes #3. The "cell phone" pocket holds a spare mag. When I wear dockers or jeans, the PM9 combination goes in the right front pocket. This dress is used when I cannot wear something that covers my strongside belt carry yet gives me more power than smaller calibers. Hope this helps.

[PCRCCW]

Deep Concealment tricks........hmmmmmmmmm. Off the body carry is just isnt my bag........not from a holster makers stand point...but from a CCW permit holder....I want my gun on me....even if it takes longer to get..its still there.

For Pocket carry...you can carry a small light 9mm....PM 9 Kahr in a Wallet style holster. Even with Docker style pants.....the pocket openings are HUGE....what Ive seen and works well is have someone sew a little velcro down in the pocket a couple of inches....match the thread color to your pants and it wont be obvious. This will keep your pockets from opening at "just the wrong time" and being made.

Smart Carry/Thunderwear may just be the trick.....If you have someone poking you there, Id think the sexual harrasment lawsuit threat would out weigh them telling others they think you have a gun in your underpants.

The "Well, what in the hell were you doing feeling him out down there? comments would be a deterent by themselves :D

Shoot well.

[CleverNickname]

I too will recommend the Smartcarry/Thunderwear. I've been using it for at-work carry for two years now. PM9 and 14 rounds of +P. I tried pocket carry, but it always looked like I had a brick in my pocket.

[Black Snowman]

1st I'd consult with a lawyer. Then depending on what he said I'd raise a stink about them denying you your legal right to carry. Those are just rules they made up not laws and if they are demanding that you not protect yourself and your co-workers then they are morally obligated to do it.

Obviously if you go the "change the policy" route you don't want to be carrying at the time but either way I'd check with a RKBA friendly lawyer before carrying or complaining.

Good luck no matter what you decided to do.

[ChickenHawk]

I agree with the pocket carry idea. A Kel-Tec P3AT (.380 ACP) might be a good candidate, or any of a host of other suggestions you've probably read here.

Pocket carry of a small gun is almost invisible while being fairly easy to access (except while sitting!)

Without getting into the "should you" part of the argument (which has also been debated at length here) don't kid youself that if you get caught you may forfeit your job. I'm 100% for protecting yourself, just do it with your eyes open.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

ChickenHawk

[Amish_Bill]

First.... a previous poster makes the error of thinking all holsters are leather. I have a black nylon Unkle Mike's ankle holster that all but matches the dark socks I wear. You still have to be aware of how you're sitting and where your cuff is, but it's not a glaring contrast.

You sound thin enough to get away with somthing like the Thunderwear. If I tried that, my general shape would make me look like I was perpetually "interested" in someone....

As far as the gun, how about a Keltec .32 or .380? They are small and thin. They are not a premium gun, but they are very capable in their intended role. One of them should fit into a pocket holster nicely.

[Brass Balls]

Get a Kahr PM9 and either a:
Pocket holster - hitting something hard in someone's pocket shouldn't raise any suspicion since most folks have keys, money clips, pocket knives etc there anyway. Smartcarry - Hopefully you won't be catching any elbows in the groin. Ankle holster - A sacrifice in access time but virtually undetectable with a small gun and the access is pretty good when seated/driving.




clic pic
http://www.kahr.com/images/pm9094.gif (http://www.kahr.com/new_pm9094.html)

[Lone_Gunman]

A Kel Tec P3AT in a front or back pocket holster will be absolutely undectectable.

Everything else is bigger, harder to conceal, and more likely to get you discovered, and/or fired.

Also, I would be kind of careful raising too much stink about the policy in place. Even if you fight and win a legal battle over CCW, you might find it hard to advance in the bureaucracy after becoming a trouble maker.

[TallPine]

Seems a little stupid, but some people just can't keep their hands to themselves
Well, to begin with, I would make them cut out that poop right now, whether on not you eventually decide to carry.

It is uncalled for, and you don't have to take it.

Should be grounds for a harrassment case if they don't start taking your gentle or not-so-gentle hints.

[Car Knocker]

I have found that I can carry a .45 ACP Kimber Ultra Carry in a "tuckable" Milt Sparks VM-2 using the Kydex clips and neither my wife or daughter are aware that I am carrying. The secret seems to lie in "blousing" the waist of the shirt.

[dfariswheel]

While rigs like the ankle carry are options, all of them are fairly easy to detect since you're dealing with "touchy-feely" people.
Street hookers are masters at "bumping" johns, to see if they're armed, and probably cops.
If you're carrying a gun, they'll find it, and the chances are, your co-workers will too.

Ankle holsters are actually not that concealable, as well as slow and awkward to draw from. Concealment of the ankle rig doesn't hold up the first time you hit the rig against a desk or doorway. Nothing on your leg makes a loud "CLUNK" BUT a gun.

In your position, I'd recommend one of the good leather "day-timer" or brief cases with the built-in concealed holster.

There are several makers around like Colorado leather that offer some very high class-low profile designs.

When you get to the office, lock it up. Most of the designs also have lockable holster compartments, so even if someone found it, they wouldn't be able to access the gun.

Few people ever equate "gun" with a nice leather day-timer or briefcase, and an added benefit is, you can carry a substantial firearm.

[Amish_Bill]

Concealment of the ankle rig doesn't hold up the first time you hit the rig against a desk or doorway. How do you smack the inside of your ankle on the side of a desk or doorway?

My ankle rig is setup to ride on the inside of your off leg, not the outside of your carry leg... Others are designed differently?

Daytimer... not a bad idea. Easy to mis-place, but not at all conspicuous... unless you carry a daytimer but write all your notes on post-its? Are any of them setup so you can open it and use a notepad without exposing the gun?

[Quartus]

Are any of them setup so you can open it and use a notepad without exposing the gun?


Yep. Very discreet. Sorry I don't have a link for you. Only problem with that setup is security, of course. If you leave it lying around...

[Black Snowman]

I know someone who CCWs a Makarov in his breafcase. Just tosses it in. There's no CCW in his state so I won't name names. I believe his co-workers know and approve however so something more descreet and secure may be better.

How about one of the MP5K/PDW brief case rigs ;) Seriously though the scheduler/case idea seems to be the best so far. You could even pocket carry in a pocket holster on the way in for faster access then secure it in a briefcase or what have you once your "safe" at your destination.

[CleverNickname]

How about one of the MP5K/PDW brief case rigs

Yeah, then instead of having to try to answer the question, "What's that clip on your belt?" (for IWB holsters), you have to answer the question "Why does your briefcase have a hole in the side and a trigger under the handle?" :cool:

[Logistar]

I am afraid I can't top all these suggestions but here is another idea that *I* have used.

I went shopping and bought an American Tourister bag/briefcase. I can carry it by two handles or a shoulder strap. I put papers, my PDA, etc in there and carry it back and forth to work. I actually did this for a while "to get everyone used to it".

I was careful to make sure that the ONE (outside front) zippered compartment was the perfect size for my 9mm in a paddle holster. (The other zippered compartment holds the PDA.) Since the holster covers the entire gun (as seen from the top), the gun can't be made even it that compartment is accidentally unzipped. (Both the bag and the holster are black.)

When I leave work, I simply take the gun out of the case, slip it on my belt and I'm READY! :D . When I get to work, I either place it in the case while in the car or head into the men's room and do it there where I can't be seen. I make SURE that no one can see me do this! :what:

I do NOT like off body carry and it has it's problems (some of them serious) but if you believe that your bag is secure while at work... it might be an option.

Advantages: You can carry into and out of work! No one could "make you" from looking at you/touching you. You have your CCW available in case of workplace trouble.

Disadvantages: It is OFF-BODY. It could be discovered by a snoop. It could be stolen more easily. While somewhat accessible, it would really only be of value if trouble started down the hall. I'd think you'd need at least 5-10 seconds (maybe longer) to access the CCW with it zipped up.

- one night the night supervisor came into my room and told me discretely that the was a possibility of trouble from an unhappy individual. Since most everyone (Including the boss) had gone home for the evening, I slipped the CCW on my belt and buttoned my jacket. - Nothing happened but I felt a lot better having my CCW!

Logistar

[Shake]

After reading some of the responses and re-reading my initial post, I don't think I came across all that clear.

To rephrase, the rule which forbade legal carry by employees was changed so that it now permits it. Or more specifically does NOT prohibit it.

Keep the ideas coming. I appreciate all the input so far. . .

Shake

[Quartus]

Clear to me, Shake. Not prohibited, but definitely NOT acceptable to the majority of your co-workers. And if it became known, the rules would probably get changed real quick to make it clear that CCW IS prohibited. Right?


Hmmm. I guessing you work in some kind of social service capacity?


BTW, I agree with a comment made here already - CCW or not, I'd put a stop to the touchy-feely.

[mummac]

You know I mentioned the ankle holster but didn't mention pocket carrying a Kel-Tec P-3AT. They are alright if you get them working properly and don't feel the .380 is undersized.

[Zundfolge]

Clear to me, Shake. Not prohibited, but definitely NOT acceptable to the majority of your co-workers. And if it became known, the rules would probably get changed real quick to make it clear that CCW IS prohibited. Right?

Whether or not the rules would change if his co-workers found out, it sounds like he works with antis. Antis tend to be small minded people who are not capable of rational thought (at least when it comes to guns) so if they found out he'd probably be treated like a registered sex offender or John Tesh fan something equaly awful.


I think before I started carrying there, I would make it a point to let your co-workers know you are not comfortable being touched ... if they don't get the point then tell your supervisor that a "hostile work environment" is being created and maybe a memo that says "Please don't touch Shake" (maybe with a threat of "sexual harassment re-education seminars or something) could make the rounds.

Where I work there is no policy about CCW ... but I too am afraid that if they knew I carried they would come up with an anti CCW policy (upper level management has shown their hand by publicly ridiculing a security guard who wanted to carry a gun). So I understand the need for "Deep cover". Thankfully I don't work with a bunch of touchy-feely people (and if anyone in my department found out I carried, I doubt it would be a big deal .... as long as nobody in HR or management found out).

[Shake]

Thanks for suggesting the pocket and Thunderwear/Smartcarry options. I really hadn't given them much thought. I will now. I am a little worried about the pocket carry as I get involved in meetings and frequently move around the office. I'm afraid that any pant pockets that allow me to carry that way may open when sitting enough to see the butt of the gun.

For those of you who use the Smartcarry/thunderwear, Could I get away with a Khar K9 in that system, or would I have to go smaller (PM9)? Are there any strange bulges when sitting? Seems like sitting might also be a problem (i.e. thighs may push the gun up toward the belt?).

I'm not sure I could get away with ankle carry. . .

Anybody have links to a holster maker that makes the planner style off body carry options? I've thought of this because I carry a backpack and always have a planner in there. I could leave it there while in my cubicle. I'm honestly not that concerned right now about speedy access. for the time being, I'm just trying to get a method that allows me to have a weapon. My main issue with this is security. In other words, I don't want to be worrying about a snoop finding my firearm while I'm riding the porcelain bus. I think the chances of this are remote, but they exist.

TallPine,

I've given subtle and not so subtle hints to people, but some people do it as a natural way of communicating. Ironically one of the worst is a fellow permit holder. I avoid putting myself in that position as much as possible, but sometimes I just can't help it. I've thought about telling them flat out to keep their hands to themselves, but have decided against it for various reasons. I have taken to wearing a knife (clip folder) strongside tucked into my waistband and clipped to my pants. Most people haven't noticed and nobody's bumped that yet.

Quartus,

Right on the rule, not close on the line of work. People I work with may be a little more anti than the social workers.

If I chose to go with a tuckable IWB holster, is the Versa Max II the way to go?

Shake

[CleverNickname]

For those of you who use the Smartcarry/thunderwear, Could I get away with a Khar K9 in that system, or would I have to go smaller (PM9)?

In my experience, the most important dimension on a gun that's going to be carried in a Smartcarry is the barrel length. The longer the barrel, the more it'll jab you in the leg when you sit down. I could carry my G19 in a Smartcarry if all I did was stand up. My G26 would be doable if I absolutely had to, but the PM9 is actually comfortable the vast majority of the time.

[mummac]

I am a little worried about the pocket carry as I get involved in meetings and frequently move around the office. I'm afraid that any pant pockets that allow me to carry that way may open when sitting enough to see the butt of the gun.

I wear dockers and have never personally had that problem with the P-3AT. Of course you wouldn't really know until you tried it.

[Quartus]

treated like a registered sex offender or John Tesh fan something equaly awful.


:what:

Alright! YOU! Zundfolge! 10 yards, unnecessary roughness!!



:D

[Shake]

you have to admit, it was funny. . . :D

Shake

[TonyB]

If you have a secuirty office and the guys aren't a-holes,maybe you could keep it there while working...that's what I do and I work in a state building....but I am very friendly w/ the security guys,many of whom shoot.....other than that carry at your own risk(you may lose your job)....:cool:

[TallPine]

Shake:
It's up to you - I just won't put up with that sort of thing myself.

[Quartus]

Right on the rule, not close on the line of work. People I work with may be a little more anti than the social workers.



Oh NO! You work with REPORTERS!!!!! :what:


;)


Let us know what you decide to do, and how it works out, will you?

[Paladin7]

Good thread with some interesting suggestions... Here's my 2cents....

Given your size and weight I would go with one of the following:

Weapon

1. 1st choice - Kahr MK40 with the hogue textured wood grips and trijicon night sights - very small, flat, powerful, shootable, accurate. The wood grips are a must as they improve control, ability to grasp the weapon and improve the recoil characteristics. Weight for someone your size is no issue.

2. S&W J Frame older model with the contoured barrel no underlug - all the benefits of the revolver, esp. the fact that the cylinder allows the grip to ride just slightly away from the body, allowing faster access for the draw.

Holster

I would recommend a good quality belly band worn with about 1" over the belt line.

Weapon location

The weapon could be located in one of 2 places

1. The 4 o'clock position behind your right hip. Access via a "hakathorn rip" (clear your covering garment, grab the shirt over the weapon with the left hand and pull up to expose the weapon, then draw). This is a very fast technique, given the mode of carry. Also, with the Kahr it is invisible. Covered with a good wide belt, you can even deal with the touchy feely crowd.

2. The 11 o'clock position (just to the left of your stomach). You can access the weapon very quickly by leaving a button undone, sliding your hand in and grasping the weapon for the draw. The only issue here is that you have a DAO pistol with no external safety pointed where it can do lots of damage (lots of folks are comfortable with this, your choice)

Best,

Paladin7

[Thefumegator]

BTW, I agree with a comment made here already - CCW or not, I'd put a stop to the touchy-feely.

LOL, It must be a Utah thing. I agree. I have a bubble. You pop my bubble, and there's going to be repercussions. :D

My younger brother is actually one of those "touchy-feely" people. Maybe that's why I usually can't stand him.



Anyway, Shake, I'd say smartcarry sounds like a good thing, unless you are a talented liar (a useful skill!) so that you can say, "Did you feel my bony hip? Sick, huh?"

Good luck. It's a real shame that such essential rights are the target of such bigotry.

Wes

[Black Snowman]

I got beat up a lot early in grade school and when my family moved to a nicer town touchy feely types were instinctively put into an arm lock. I finally broke that habit in college. It gets the point across that you like you're personal space though :)

I don't nessisarly advocate this method as it doesn't exactly make you popular. Telling people firmly that it makes you uncomfortable is usually enough to make them see lawsuits fly before their eyes and stop.

[yzguy]

pocket holster with a P-32 or P-3AT would be (and is) my choice.

[Zundfolge]

I just had a thought ... maybe you should get both a good IWB holster and some sort of off body holster. When you come in in the morning, go to the bathroom and transition the gun from your IWB to your off body holster ... put the off body holster into a lockable drawer (assuming you have one) and then in the evening before you leave, take your off body holster to the bathroom and transfer the gun back to your pants.

I may start doing this.

[ksnecktieman]

May I suggest, either a keltec p32, or a P3AT, with the factory belt clip. have a buttonhole made in an undershirt, directly behind your shirts breast pocket. The gun is light enough, .32 or .380 are both lightweights, in stopping power, but rule one is "always have a gun". Your co workers touchy feely habits will probably never touch you on a pocket with somethin in it (cmall notebook, tablet, smokes?). When needed a superman draw should be fast enough. Left hand rips shirt open, right hand draws. Or remove button and sew it to left side of shirt where the button hole is, and secure shirt with a tiny piece of velcro (tiny so your drawing hand can seperate it on the way in). Do you have to wear a tie at work? Maybe center chest would be better? Waste a t shirt cutting slots and experimenting. When you decide where the best two spots for carry are, mark them and have someone, create button holes there.
No holster to add bulk to an already tiny pistol.

good luck, and prayers that you never need it:)

[pytron]

You stated (IIRC) that you don't have anything lockable in your cube.

Maybe you could get a small fire safe (like this one (http://www.officefurniture.com/Product.pasp?txtCatalog=OF&txtCategory=166&txtProductID=SNT%2D1160)) to store your firearm in. The only problem would be transitioning when arriving and departing work. You could say that you keep backup CDs or other important docs in it (so the cleaning staff can't take them). Of course, a regular old cash box could work, but the fire safes tend to have better locks (ie not pickable with a paperclip) and people are less like to pick them up and shake them (since they weigh like 30 pounds).

If you combine this with day-planner carry, you could just lock your day planner inside the safe during the day and then take it out at night.

I personally am in a similar situation (no rules about CCW, but potential problems if found out) and find pocket carry with a Kel-Tec P-32 satisfies my desire for protection while affording me great concealability. I also have a Smartcarry holster and agree with the previous poster that barrel length makes all the difference.

-Pytron

[dfariswheel]

Here's a few links for organizers and other "non-traditional" carries:

http://www.ballisticreview.com/falgal/fannypacks.html

http://www.shado.com/merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=CP

Also try Coronado Leather.

[WonderNine]

Shake, I'm in the same situation as you and for work, I've resigned myself to pocket carry. And most of the time I pocket carry anyways, so it's no big thing.

Get yourself a nice small gun, nothing larger than a Kahr MK9/PM9 and you should be alright. Although you may prefer a Kel-Tec in .32 or .380 for size and weight, or a Seecamp in .32, an Autauga in .32, or a Colt Pocket 9 in 9mm. Even a Colt Mustang pocketlite in .380 should work.

[Dominic]

Shake, I have the same issues that you have. I often find myself in an anti-rkba/carry climate and have the same chances of bumping into someone or encountering the "touchy feely". I've been carrying mostly daily for about two years now and a common carry combination for me is a makarov or a Kel-Tec P-11 in my smartcarry COMBINED with a P-32 in my back pocket. Using a back pocket holster with an "antiprint" panel makes the P-32 even more discrete for carry and it is just accessible. And I weigh 260 and no, the gun hasn't broken. Yes, drawing from your smartcarry is a little slower, so the mouse gun in the pocket is more readily available if someone is right up on you. Yes, it's a compromise but I think it works for me.

Also, I started carrying a clutch, a man-bag or whatever you wanted to call it recently and I now carry everything that would normall be in my pockets in that off-body luggage and now i can carry guns, knives, flash lights and extra ammo in my pockets. I think that carrying your gun offbody is a bad ideas unless in certain circumstances that would warrant it, but not for every day. When I can carry on the belt I usually carry a larger weapon, or if the pants ware baggy enough that day the revolver goes in the pocket to backup the belt gun instead of a P-32. But usually it's always the P-32.

Yes, you can carry a Kark P9 in your smartcarry no problem as it is almost exactly the same size as a Makarov. That gun would go in an "size small" (referring to the holster, not the waist size) smartcarry.

[Majic]

Does the new rule replace the old rule, or is it an addtion? Does it just add changes to the original rule while leaving parts of it in place? That could affect what you may think you can do. It's hard to imagine a government agency turning 180 degrees on this subject. Don't be surprised if they refer back to the old rule which was in place when they hired you if you run into troubles.

[P95Carry]

I am still practicing with my ''Smart Carry'' ....... which is something i will only use when deep concealment a priority - which is not often.

The appeal tho is i think obvious ... ignoring any ''discomfort'' factors ...... it is right over the ''crown jewels'' ....... you are unlikely to get nudged or patted there .... or even looked at for too long as people would be too embarrassed at being noticed observing your ''bulge''.!!

I bought mine of a size to handle the P series Ruger .... a chunky gun and far from small .. so i think any compact will do well.

It does tho IMO take practice to get used to - but is probably your best bet. Get one .. practice and persevere.

My tuppence.

[Shake]

Thanks for all the ideas. I appreciate what has turned into something of a brainstorm session for me.

I've pretty much decided to explore all of the on-body carry options first, as I just don't like the idea of off-body carry. If I had a secure place to lock my firearm while I was away from my cube periodically, I may think differently.

I'm going to look into the Smartcarry and pocket carry options first. I also may explore the tuckable holster option and just deal with the "touchers" as they happen.

I may adopt a routine similar to what Zundfolge suggested.

I'll think on it a little longer, then make a decision. It may be a month or so, but I'll post back here and let you know how it works out. . .

Majic,

The existing rule (which forbade employees from carrying a firearm) was replaced with a new rule that didn't even mention firearms (no longer forbade them). The attorney general's office provided the impetus behind the rule change when they gave a legal opinion stating that it was a direct contradiction of the concealed carry law to forbid state employees from carrying a firearm legally.

Here is some of the text from the opinion:

Subsection (2) of that statute declares, "[a]ll authority to regulate firearms shall be reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities. Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact or enforce any ordinance, regulation, or rule pertaining to firearms."

The Legislature has provided that the Department of Human Resource Management "shall establish a career service system" that provides for "recruiting, selecting, and advancing employees . . . equitable and competitive compensation . . . training employees as needed to assure high-quality performance . . . [and] retaining employees on the basis of the adequacy of their performance." § 67-19-3.1. Since the Legislature has not specifically delegated the authority to enact or enforce ordinances, regulations or rules pertaining to firearms to the Department of Human Resource Management, the only issue is whether R477-9-1(5) pertains to firearms. By its own terms it does. Consequently, the rule is not only unenforceable, it is also null and void because it has been promulgated in direct contravention of a statutory provision forbidding such a rule. It is my understanding that based on a similar informal opinion provided to the Governor's Office on October 22, 2001, DHRM is currently in the process of rescinding the rule by January 1, 2002.

The rule mentioned above (R477-9-1(5)) was the DHRM rule that prohibited employees from carrying firearms.

Shake

[XavierBreath]

http://www.smartcarry.com/

Be prepared to loose your job and have difficulty in finding another job if you are discovered.

[PCRCCW]

Very cool....now get a good tuckable or pocket holster and you dont have to worry about legal liability anymore...just the touchy feelies" around the office.

If anyone bumped into the "Smart Carry" and mentioned anything...just say.......I Moonlite as a Porn Star!" :D

Shoot well.........

[Thefumegator]

If anyone bumped into the "Smart Carry" and mentioned anything...just say.......I Moonlite as a Porn Star!"

"Well I do!" :D

Good luck, Shake.

[Sunray]

If you want to keep your cushy government job, you'll comply or take them to court. Citing violations of the law. If you have a union they should be involved. Try the 'safety of employees' angle. The coppers, up here, got issued semi autos, at my expense, because they cried a revolver wasn't safe. The fact that most of them can't shoot worth beans and are a hazard to themselves and everyone around them is irrelevant. The fact that they are making over 50 grand a year to sit in donut shops and collect taxes is. Toronto's cop budget is half a billion dollars, most of which goes to fat pay cheques for personnel. And they can't seem to stop the increasing number of gang related shootings. Mind you, the Chief has said the registry is a waste of money.
What it boils down to is if you feel your rights are being violated it's up to you to do something. Sue them, comply or find another job.

[Shake]

XavierBreath,

As I mentioned previously, the rule has been changed to ALLOW concealed carry. If I were "discovered", the state attorney general is behind me, and there are NO rules prohibiting concealed carry of firearms by employees. . .

Shake

[Series 70]

I used to carry a Kahr P40 in a Smart Carry. With pleated pants, there's no way anyone would know it's there. Without pleated pants, I could notice a slight crease made by the wide base of the magazine. It was so slight that I doubt anyone else noticed. If they did, they never commented.

[rock jock]

Thunderware

[Litlman]

Winchester model 1300 12 g. Oh, just kidding. I have a belt pack by Uncle Mike's that has a conceiled pocket inside the main zippered one. It is big enough for my 442, maybe something bigger. The conceiled pocket velcros closed tight and you have to give it a good rip to open it up. I wear this with a large shirt untucked over it . It works well and was not to much$$$$
Good luck.

[WYO]

If you absolutely, positively cannot be made, try a Beretta 21A .22 lr in your front pocket, stoked with CCI Stingers. It may not be a great stopper, but you can unload an entire mag into the face at 12 feet in under 2 seconds. Add a second for the draw.

It's cheap (the gun and the ammo) and very fun to shoot. It's also accurate at distance. Spare mags are pretty small, and you easily can carry a couple.

[Glamdring]

I almost always carry SW 637 (air wt j frame) in Uncle Mikes #3 pocket holster, I usually use hotel key cards (same shape/size as Credit card) to help mask the gun. Recently started using a Credit CArd sized pocket ice scraper to mask.

When I don't carry the j frame I carry a P32 in Uncle Mikes #1 pocket holster (I bought P32 when first came out, would suggest anyone buying now to get P3at since 380 much better than 32 IMo).


I don't think anyone would ever be able to make the J frame by sight, but at my part time job tend to bump into people a bit when it is busy so I usuallly use the P32 when working there.

The LEO that I have called for problems have never made me & I figure they are more likely to than co workers.

Pants are dockers, and I carry strongside front pocket.

[V-fib]

Ok you can legally carry at work now but you want concealment.

Get a smartcarry. I have used mine for over a year now. I have gone to lots of touchy feely family functions and have never been made. Just today I opened a CD at my bank and the manager was none the wiser that I had my Sp101 .357 and a xtra speedloader with me. If I can carry under a pair of swimshorts, you can easily carry at work and no one will be the wiser.

:cool:

[clubsoda22]

Just today I opened a CD at my bank and the manager was none the wiser that I had my Sp101 .357 and a xtra speedloader with me.

If he did know you might have gotten a better interest rate :D

[DF357]

Sent to Charlie Parrott - owner of Smartcarry:

I've had a Smartcarry for a while now and use it when an IWB is a little tough to use, like under a tight shirt. I use an IWB tuckable from Tucker and really love it. It's my main carry holster for my CS45 which is with me 24/7.

One day last week, I noticed that my supply of looser fitting shirts was all in the laundry so I grabbed the smartcarry. It always has been very comfortable but sometimes when I sit for long periods the muzzle of the 45 sorts pokes me in a tender spot and I get uncomfortable. That and the little 'roll' of my middle sorta makes gun access a little tough while sitting (other body shapes probably won't have this problem until they get old and flabby like me!).

Well, I decided to shift the Smartcarry to the right so that the gun is at about the 2-3 oclock position. VIOLA ! Now the gun is at the position I normally carry with my IWB, doesn't poke me, and is easier to get at - no flab there! Positioning it this way is extremely comfortable. The mfg suggests that you carry it low, below the belt line in front, it works at the side too when deep concealment is wanted. Wear the 'belt' a little tighter and higher and the butt of the gun is above your belt just like a normal IWB for quicker access. Going somewhere where the butt of the gun above the belt might be inconvenient?-- just push it down below the belt.

You can either tuck your shirt behind it like a normal IWB or over it like a tuckable IWB and since it's suspended by it's own 'belt' there is no belt clip to limit the depth of the 'tuck'. AND being made of padded cloth, it's extremely comfortable and soft. It also has a second pocket for your mag which 99% of the leather/kydex IWB don't have. When you walk, the weight of the gun is supported by the 'belt' of the holster around your waist and the gun is not weighing down your pants or belt as with a normal IWB. AND as another benefit, when you use the 'throne', your gun doesn't hit the floor, sit in your pants or have to be otherwise removed. So front wise it's good, side mount is better - for me anyway. ..........................
It comes with a 60 day money back trial.

No, I'm not a salesman for the company. It's just that I have a box of holsters and was amazed what a little experimenting could accomplish. Maybe this method might help someone solve a problem with their carry.

---------------------end of letter------------------------------

[Amish_Bill]

I'm starting to think that maybe i do want one of these SmartCarry beasts.... I guess I need to figure out what I want to carry first...

[DF357]

While my CS45 is my main carry, I've carried my SW66 (K Frame), my SW380 (pocket sized), my Taurus snubby 38 (j frame) and this is in a SMALL Smartcarry - there's two sizes larger than that.

GO to www.smartcarry.com and read the MANY user letters. They'll open your eyes as to who uses it with what.

[Amish_Bill]

Df - my options span from the Beretta 21a to the Para P14.

Most of the problem will be figuring out just how much gun I think I can hide with my shape & current clothing.

[P95Carry]

If you go to the site Bill - you'll find that Charlie has worn his for 12 years with a full size 1911 and never been made.

[Amish_Bill]

Uh Oh... I just got the image in my head of trying to use a SmartCarry to conceal a type 97 (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/az-c15p97.asp)....

Hmmm.....

[DF357]

just open the bottom of the holster so the barrel will go thru ! :p

[XavierBreath]

Shake,

My thinking is that if you are concerned about being made at work more than any other place, there must be a reason! ;-) Eventhough your AG is behind you, you do not want to be ostracized, stigmatized, and you don't want your boss to start looking for a reason to get rid of you because of his or her anti-gun stance. Prejudice takes many forms and results in more job terminations than poor performance. If you have to resort to legalities to keep your job, you can expect to have your performance scutinized to such an extent that you cannot suceed. It isn't the was it should be, but it is often the way it is.

SmartCarry holsters will work, especially with a smaller handgun. It's secure, reasonably comfortable and on your person. I do not recommend carrying a gun off your body at all. You must stay in control of it so you can keep it concealed. Remember that a CCW holders actions often say "gun" more than the gun does. If you are constantly having to insure it is covered, you will arouse suspicion.

Best regards,
X

[obiwan1]

Kel Tec P11 in pocket holster or SmartCarry. I prefer pocket holster. It's natural for a guy to walk around with hands in pockets. To draw from that position is fast and natural.;) It worked for me for years before I became a LEO. Back in those days, it was a PPK or Chiefs Spec in a pocket holster. Nobody knew. Just choose a good one.

[rolltide]

Shake,
I have many of the same concerns for many of the same reasons as you have. I have been carrying daily for years now. I have several modes of carry that work for me. Although I still ocassionally carry a larger firearm in a shoulder holster under a coat, shirt, or vest, the following options are what I have used everyday in a work environment where ABSOLUTE CONCEALMENT is a ABOSOLUTE MUST. I would never carry off body unless I had a FOOLPROOF lock system in place (which usually means hard to get when you need it)

1. I have never used Smartcarry, although I think it is a great deal. I have carried a Kahr K9 and a Keltec P11 in a regular elastic waistband holster. I wore these guns in a cross draw configuration about where the pleats on the dockers are on my off hand side. I kept the waistband holster so that the grip of the gun lay directly under my dress belt . I tucked my dress shirt OVER the gun. In this position, all I had to do to draw the gun was unbutton one button on my dress shirt just above the belt line, then reach through the shirt to grab the butt of the gun from my waistband. You can use the same carry with a polo shirt, but you have to pull the shirt out of your pants to draw the gun. I ALWAYS wore button up dress shirts when I carried this way. Even when being hugged, NOONE (not even my wife) ever noticed I was carrying. I live in a hot and humid climate and this type carry always meant cleaning sweat of the gun almost daily in the summer time. So I stopped carrying that way.

2. I have decided that since the 32 ACP has 67% one shot stops (compared to 68% for 38 snubnose and 70% for 380). (Please lets not get into the Marhall/Fackler debate. I am fully aware of all the limitations of such surveys and averages.) I have since decided to carry a NAA 32 ACP everyday. I can fire 3 shots on target as fast as I can 1 from a +P 9mm in a compact lightweight gun. I am convinced enough that 3 32 ACP silvertips will be as effective on target as 1 +P 9mm that I carry only a 32ACP 95% of the time. This choice also alows me to much better carry options since the little 32's like the NAA, Seecamp, Keltec, and Autauga can be easily carried in a number of ways. (I can also carry four 10 round mags in a wallet in my back pocket. Try that with a 9mm or 380.)

I made a simple pouch (or wallet) for front pocket carry made from vinyl material. It is about the size of a check book. It is intentionally 2" longer than the gun so that while standing it "prints" like a checkbook or wallet in my front pocket. When I am sitting, the extra length of the little pouch folds over the top of the gun covering the butt and keeping it in place. The extra length also keeps perspiration off the gun 100% even in the long, hot, sticky summers that we have around here. The little wallet works perfect for back pocket carry as well. I putt a little leather "block" inside the wallet to fill out the "L" shape made by the gun. This way it never "prints" like a gun even when sitting and the little filler block also keeps the gun veritcal in the pocket so that it is always in position to be drawn straight out the top of the pocket.

Lately, I have switched to the hide in plain sight option and have been using it daily for about the last 6 months. I bought a little belt pouch like they sell at OfficeMax for digital cameras (the smallest size.) The pouch has a fully zippered compartment for the camera (or PDA) and an exterior pocket with a velcro flap that is just the perfect size for my cell phone. I carry my cell phone in the outside pockect and noone ever gives a second thought to what is in the pouch. It is convenient for standing, sitting, riding in the car, everywhere. I have never caught one person staring at the pouch in a suspicious way and NOONE has ever inquired about it. Everyone just assumes it is my cell phone. I have seen similar pouches made specifically for gun carry, but they usually don't have the exterior pocket for the cell phone. The cell phone pocket is a must for me because that is what TOTALLY "sells" this as a normal inconspicuous item.

I hope this is helpful. All these options have advantages and disadvantages, but one or the other gets me through every situation I have ever encountered and allows me to carry everyday no matter how I am dressed, where I am going, or what the weather is.

Roll Tide

[P95Carry]

Roll Tide - thx for that detailed resumé. Yet more very useful info to add to the THR ''info mine''!! :)

I particularly like your thinking re the ''camera pouch'' with cell phone pocket etc .. could be one of the most ideal ''hide in plain view'' .. and I shall add that to my ''consideration list''.

The pocket pouch also .... like that.

[Shake]

XavierBreath,

I totally agree with what you say. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. While I may be on solid ground legally, I understand the implications should I be caught. Thank you for your advice. . .

rolltide,

Thank you for the valuable information. I'll definitly look into something like your digicam bag.

Shake

[ksnecktieman]

rolltide? Can you post some pictures please? Or email them to me?
garyhowe@cox.net

[Dominic]

if you want something that's actually fitted for a gun, consider this

http://store6.yimg.com/I/desantisholster_1767_11569599

That's the EZ Rider from DeSantis. Expensive imho, but maybe you can find them on ebay or discount somwhere.

http://www.desantisholster.com/n30.html

[sturmruger]

I have used a daytimer concealment rig for some time. It is easy to lug around and is functional as a daytimer if I want. You can't find anything that is as easy as this. I like it because it is as comfortable as it gets. You don't have to stick anything down your pants which is nice. I would order one, I think most of the major holster manufacturers make daytimers as well.

[rolltide]

Here are the pics of my pocket wallet.

Here is the empty wallet and the leather block
pocket1 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pocket1.JPG)


Here is the empty wallet and the gun in the leather block
pocket2 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pocket2.JPG)

Inserting the gun and block into the wallet (note the block stays in the wallet when the gun is drawn.)
pocket3 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pocket3.JPG)

Gun and block fully inserted in the wallet
pocket4 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pocket4.JPG)

Outside of wallet with the gun and block inside
pocket5 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pocket5.JPG)


Wallet and gun in pocket while standing
pocket6 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pocket6.JPG)

Wallet and gun printing while leg is bent and trousers are pulled tight. (note that it just prints like a wallet or check book, even when sitting you never "print" as a gun)
pocket7 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pocket7.JPG)

[rolltide]

Here are the pics of my digicam pouch carry.


Gun pouch and phone
pouch1 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pouch1.JPG)


Gun inside of open pouch.
pouch2 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pouch2.JPG)

Gun and phone inside closed pouch
pouch3 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pouch3.JPG)


Gun, phone, and pouch on belt
pouch4 (www.geocities.com/mgsdrs/pouch4.JPG)