7.62x25 performance in pistol and carbine


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Old Scratch
November 18, 2010, 03:58 PM
I found pistol and carbine performance with this cartridge rather surprising.

A factory S&B 86 grain went at 1450 fps out of a standard TT-33, with the same round exceeding 1700 fps from a carbine. I have not yet ventured past 1600 fps with pistol handloads. What are your experiences in loading 7.62x25?

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rcmodel
November 18, 2010, 05:19 PM
I have none.

There are no weapons chambered for it accurate enough to take advantage of the small caliber HV bullet at long enough range to put it to good use as a varmint round.

rc

colonelhogan44
November 19, 2010, 05:30 PM
it punches through metal pretty well out of a CZ-52.

rcmodel
November 19, 2010, 06:07 PM
So does a .357 Mag out of a 6" S&W.
And I can hit coyotes at 75-100 yards with it too!

I have nothing against the caliber or the pistols that were chambered for them.

I just feel a high velocity .30 cal pistol is a varmint gun, and neither the CZ-52 or TT-33 Tokarev are accurate enough to use for that.

As a military or SD pistol, they are obsolete, as is the .30 Mauser & .30 Luger that preceeded them.

It did make a pretty good WWII sub-machinegun round for the Russians though.

rc

Old Scratch
November 19, 2010, 09:31 PM
The reason I posted the question in the first place is that I have been firing the 7.62x25 through a carbine length barrel and was impressed with the performance. In particular, I was wondering if anyone had done anything interesting in lower velocity, heavier rifle bullets: 123 gr, 150 gr, or 182gr. It struck me that this combination might compare to the 300 Whisper; perhaps a poor-man's alternative?

armarsh
November 21, 2010, 12:09 AM
The heaviest 30 Tok I have loaded is 110 grn to use 30 carbine bullets. 6.0 grains of VV 3n37. It is a pleasant target load of approximately 1200 fps. Half a grain less powder and it would be subsonic.

I think you are absolutely correct that the 30 Tok could be an excellent subsonic carbine cartridge. I think you will also find that you can put together a 300/221 for less money and that is why few people do it.

What do you have for a 30 Tok carbine?

leadcounsel
November 21, 2010, 09:37 AM
www.theboxotruth.com

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

If I recall correctly, they tested common handgun rounds against a US Army Kevlar helmet. The 7.62x25 was the only one that penetrated it. I think the .357 even failed.

Old Scratch
November 25, 2010, 01:26 PM
Armarsh...I have the ultimate no-tech carbine: an M-1938 with a chamber insert. I haven't tried any heavy bullets yet, but will report back with any worthwhile results.

armarsh
November 25, 2010, 01:58 PM
If you want to try the same 110 grn I was talking about, here they are:

http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14669-c34-g8-b0-p0-.30_Carbine_110gr_RN_.308.aspx

cheygriz
November 25, 2010, 02:22 PM
My only gun in that caliber is a CZ52.

I have used new factory ammo from S&B and it's really lame. ~1450-1475 FPS.

A batch of Yugo MilSurp clocks 1650 from the same gun. It's accurate enough, and IMHO powerful enough to engage human targets to 100 yards for SD.

I can keep 10 out of 10 of rounds COM on an FBI "Q" target at 100 yards all day long with that CZ.

European cemeteries are full of dead German soldiers killed with the "old, obsolete" Tok round. :evil:

Old Scratch
November 25, 2010, 03:37 PM
That Yugo sounds impressive, Cheygriz. Any auto pistol delivering 500+ FPE is working well, indeed. What is the headstamp on that?

GaryL
November 27, 2010, 12:21 PM
One time I had a chance to run some mil-surp over a chrono from a CZ-52, all were right around 1480. Have not considered reloading any of it.

GarryB
December 21, 2010, 02:48 AM
The 7.62 x 25mm Soviet round as used in the Tokarev pistol is a very hot round but it is also part of a little joke.

You see although it is called a 7.62 x 25mm calibre weapon its actual bullet calibre is rather different.

It is a .311 calibre bullet, the same calibre as used in the 7.62 x 39mm AKM round, the 7.62 x 54mmR round used in Russian machine guns and sniper rifles today, and also the same calibre as the British .303 rifles and machine guns.

In a local magazine called New Zealand Guns an older guy had some old 303 rifles and because the 303 ammo is becoming more scarce and expensive here he decided to modify both rifles to fire a different calibre. The two calibres he chose were the 7.62 x 25mm and the 7.62 x 39mm because the barrels were OK already. He seriously shortened the barrel on one rifle and modified it to fire 7.62 x 25mm ammo and he said it was rather accurate out to 100m or so and a bit more powerful than a 22 magnum and he said he used it primarily on goats.
The other rifle he didn't shorten so much and modified it to fire the 7.62 x 39mm round which he uses on slightly larger game like small deer as well as goats and pigs at longer ranges.
The rifles are easy to use and accurate and cheap to fire.

I do remember reading a book... I believe it was "The AK-47 story" by a guy named Ezzell or something that had a photo of a carbine in 7.62 x 25mm that the Soviets were developing during WWII but in the end it was decided that the round was more lethal with multiple hits... like most pistol bullets so they simply continued to produce the SMGs in that calibre. The next carbines they made were the Mosin Nagant model 1944 carbine and the SKS, the former were certainly produced in large numbers but the latter were largely for parades in the end because the AK was introduced not long after and it combined the features of a rifle and a carbine and a SMG in one package.

Clark
December 21, 2010, 03:30 AM
IIRC much of the surplus ammo in 7.62x25mm Tokarev has .307" bullets.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1117627

I took this to the range once after I built it. It shot a 4.2" 5 shot group at 100 yards.

GarryB
December 21, 2010, 06:45 AM
As long as the weapon you are using the ammo in is strong enough to take higher pressures then slightly larger calibre ammo should be OK as long as you are careful and look for signs that the pressure is too high.

For ammo that is smaller calibre than the barrel you are using then you will lose some pressure and the bullet may not properly engage the rifling but a .307 round down a .311 calibre tube should be no problem at all.

The real issue would be rifling rate for the bullet weight and length.

Personally I would be very happy with that sort of accuracy from the TT-33 you show.... especially with no buttstock or hand support to hold it in two hands against the shoulder.
What barrel length does it have BTW?

I would expect a 303 Lee Enfield rifle with a 45-50cm barrel would be very accurate firing 7.62 x 25mm rounds. A 22WMR fires 50 grain bullets at something like 500mps and I would expect a 7.62 x 25mm round to make at least 600mps from such a long barrel with a standard bullet weight of something like 90 grains or so.
A significant power advantage without moving to a rifle cartridge.

I have a Mk4* 303 made by the Savage company but its barrel is rubbish and I lost the magazine. I have been thinking of getting it rebarrelled in either 7.62 x 39mm or 7.62 x 25mm. I am leaning towards the former especially if subsonic 7.62 x 39mm ammo becomes available as I will likely get it fitted with a suppressor too.

Jim Watson
December 21, 2010, 10:25 AM
I was wondering if anyone had done anything interesting in lower velocity, heavier rifle bullets: 123 gr, 150 gr, or 182gr. It struck me that this combination might compare to the 300 Whisper; perhaps a poor-man's alternative?

J.D. Jones has already done just that. He calls the .30 Mauser loaded with heavy rifle bullets the "Mini Whisper" and the .30 Luger loaded with heavy rifle bullets the "Micro Whisper." A 168-180 grain spitzer at 1050 fps doesn't have a lot of muzzle energy, but it holds what it has very well.
I don't know about the poor man part, though. It would cost just as much to chamber a good rifle that way as anything else.

GarryB
December 21, 2010, 09:24 PM
AFAIK the standard subsonic 7.62 x 39mm ammo issued to Soviet and now Russian forces uses a 193 grain bullet with a subsonic muzzle velocity from a standard AKM.

The AS and VSS issued weapons in 9 x 39mm suggests they decided a dedicated subsonic weapon was of value and with 250 grain bullets I would suspect they would have more effect on target.

Obviously however when being quiet is no longer important you can change mags with an AKM and fire high velocity ammo through the suppressor and greatly improve effective range.

I haven't fired subsonic ammo in my suppressed AKM or my suppressed Mosin Nagant model 1944 carbine so I really don't know how quiet they could be.

With my suppressed bolt action .22lr rifles the loudest noise it the thump of the bullet impacting the target... which is surprisingly loud.

snuffy
December 23, 2010, 09:50 PM
You see although it is called a 7.62 x 25mm calibre weapon its actual bullet calibre is rather different.

It is a .311 calibre bullet, the same calibre as used in the 7.62 x 39mm AKM round, the 7.62 x 54mmR round used in Russian machine guns and sniper rifles today, and also the same calibre as the British .303 rifles and machine guns.

No it's not. It's .308. Hornadies 90 XTP is sized .309, if the bore was really .311 like you say, don't you think they would make light .311 bullets.

I make 100 grain lead bullets with a lee 30 cal mold, sized to .308, they work very well in my CZ-52. The 86 gr. 30 mauser bullets,(.308), also work well as does the 90 XTP.

Oh, and what foreign language is that, metric? I don't bother translating those measurements you stated, so you may as well not give them. I certainly don't think in metrics, I'm too old to re-learn.

GarryB
December 24, 2010, 11:42 PM
No it's not. It's .308. Hornadies 90 XTP is sized .309, if the bore was really .311 like you say, don't you think they would make light .311 bullets.

I am basing the measurements on Soviet made weapons which is a land to land measurement.

If you look at Clarks post above he mentions using ammo of .307" calibre so it seems these weapons are quite tolerant of different bullet sizes.

I also mentioned a conversion of a .303 calibre rifle into both 7.62 x 39mm and 7.62 x 25mm where the chamber was altered but the rifling was left intact which suggests they are compatible in terms of bullet sizes. Metric for .303 is 7.7mm, or .311 calibre.

Oh, and what foreign language is that, metric? I don't bother translating those measurements you stated, so you may as well not give them. I certainly don't think in metrics, I'm too old to re-learn.

And I am too old to learn an archaic, obsolete measurement system just to suit you. I did include relevant Imperial measures like the bullet weight in grains instead of grammes

BTW if you go to this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

And scroll down to the large table in the metric vs imperial section there is a line for American .30 cal and another seperate line for other .30 cal and in that other .30 cal line are .311 cal bullets like the .303, 7.62 x 39mm, and 7.62 x 54mmR. During WWII barrels for the Mosin Nagant rifle in 7.62 x 54mmR calibre were cut in half to make two barrels for 7.62 x 25mm calibre sub machine guns, so one can assume it is .311 calibre too.

GarryB
December 24, 2010, 11:47 PM
The 85gr and 100gr bullets came from Hornady at 0.311" diameter, while the 'proper' bullet diameter for this cartridge is 0.309". While two one-thousands of an inch is not that much, I was not anxious to pull the trigger on the cartridges with these bullets loaded in them - because they would not cycle/chamber freely in the tested CZ-52. A Lee lead bullet sizing die for 0.309" bullets was used to size the bullets down to 0.309".

It's my understanding that the CZ-52 can handle hotter loads than some of the other Com-Bloc pistols chambered for 7.62x25mm Tokarev. While I don't shoot these pistols regularly and it may be Internet lore, please approach these maximum loads with caution in your firearm.

From: http://www.brassfetcher.com/hornady762x25mmJHPs.html

Why would Hornady make 85gr and 100gr bullets in .311 calibre in the first place?

snuffy
December 25, 2010, 09:58 AM
an archaic, obsolete measurement system

We do pretty well with that archaic system.

As for that brass fetcher article, he's wrong about the CZ-52 being a strong design. I used to think that too, until Clark shined the light of truth on the design flaw in the chamber of the CZ pistol. Well, not really the chamber, but the amount of metal removed from the bottom of the chamber to make room for the roller locking system. IF the barrel was heat treated correctly, it will withstand pressure pretty well. But war time sometimes results in skipped steps, of hurry-up mistakes.

I'm going to slug the barrel of mine to see just what's up with the bore diameter. I might have to size my lead bullets to .309 or .310, then see if the loaded shell will chamber freely. We've beat this dead horse enough, on to more important stuff.:scrutiny::uhoh:

BigJakeJ1s
December 25, 2010, 04:15 PM
The "design" of the CZ-52 is plenty strong. The thinned area of the chamber wall is very small in area, and does not constitute an undue weakening of the chamber if the pistol was manufactured properly, as most were. Some examples did not get properly heat treated, which left them weaker.

Andy

ilove2shoot
January 28, 2011, 02:06 AM
been doing a little playing with this caliber, quite versatile....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hitKrIXOnLY

or this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALkP0dKBGgc

Clark
January 28, 2011, 02:22 AM
I also converted a 1903 Turkish Mauser with a Rem721 30-06 take off barrel to 30 Mauser.

The 30 Mauser reamer is compatible with the 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammo.

This is a miserable project, like any Mauser to 223 bolt face conversion it involves welding to the extractor. And then it shoots single shot.

I don't have a pic, as that guns is sitting in storage, but it just looks like a 1903 With a Rem barrel and a scope.

Kentuckiana rifleman
January 28, 2011, 03:03 AM
That hunting pistol looks obnoxious, I love it! nice build, did you build the barrel from scratch yourself? and if you did I'm wanting to become a gunsmith, do you have any pointers to give?

Clark
January 28, 2011, 05:40 AM
I got a 308 Parker Hale Brit sniper training bull barrel from Numrich for $33.

I cut off the Mauser threads and cut it to Tokarev shape on the lathe.
I cut the extractor relief cut with the mill.
I got a link off another Tokarev barrel.

Randy Ketchum of Lynnwood Guns TIG welded the lug onto the barrel for me.

I cut the chamber with a 30 Mauser reamer because they were cheaper at the time and off the shelf from Brownells.

MrOldLude
January 28, 2011, 12:12 PM
I shouldn't read topics like this, as it makes me want to buy a CZ-52.

I kinda think of it as a poor-man's .357 sig.

ilove2shoot
January 28, 2011, 12:17 PM
I like the TT-33 style of pistol better....and with wolf producing a hollow point.

cougar1717
January 28, 2011, 04:05 PM
What are your experiences in loading 7.62x25?

The surplus ammo is great for plinking, but corrosive.
New Prvi/Wolf ammo is better and functions well.
Best accuracy I've experienced has used the Hornady .309" bullets and H-110 powder, although I admit that a quicker powder (like Blue dot or HS-6) would probably be better. Charge weights of the surplus ammo I've pulled are in the 7.5-7.8gr range.
Some people get blinded by the velocity numbers and how relatively cheap the TT-33, CZ52, and surplus ammo are, but it's basically a hot 30 mauser being shot out of rather archaic guns with poor sights, ergonomics, and capacity compared to today's standards.

psyshack
January 29, 2011, 04:28 AM
I load up my own for my CZ-52. The 52 is my fav. pistol. It's deadly at 100 yards off hand. A trigger like a switch and full proof.

If you have not shot the round through a good pistol chambered for it. You have no idea what your missing IMHO. :D

Old Scratch
January 29, 2011, 11:57 AM
Clark,

Your custom Tokarev barrel looks great, but we're all waiting...how does it shoot?

And do let us know if they will be commercially available.

Old Scratch
January 29, 2011, 01:03 PM
Update: clocked the Romatok with 86 gr bullets using S&B cases, magnum small rifle primers and #9; got as far as 1700 fps. Accurate's 13.5 gr "maximum" load did NOT yield the 1900 fps they claim.

Will report back on results with VV powders as soon as the Sun shines again; my chronograph gives no readings in perpetual darkness.

BigJakeJ1s
January 29, 2011, 02:40 PM
Here's a company that has developed a 7.62x25 AR-15 variant:

http://teppojutsu.com/

Clark
January 29, 2011, 04:19 PM
Old Scratch

Clark,

Your custom Tokarev barrel looks great, but we're all waiting...how does it shoot?

And do let us know if they will be commercially available.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1117631
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=1117627



Typical project at my house:
a) 5 hours in my lathe
b) 5 minutes at the range
c) 5+ years of posting about it on the internet

Range report 7-14-2004
I have a 2x7x32 Leupold Vari-II rifle scope on it.
I was using S&B 7.62x25mm factory ammo.
The chamber is reamed with a 30 Mauser reamer, but the differences are
minute, and have to do with a shoulder angle on a shoulder that is
barely visible.
I used no recoil spring.
I fed single shot without a magazine.

At 50 yards I shot two 5 shot groups; 2.1" and 2.5"
At 100 yards I shot one 5 shot group: 4.2"

Much better groups would be possible:
without wind
with a better rest
with a shooter who is a better shot with a pistol
with better ammo.


I am not in the gun biz, but I do have a product coming out in ~ a month, a co-ax press after market part.

Old Scratch
January 29, 2011, 04:41 PM
Clark,

My mistake...I didn't realize THIS was THAT. I had just assumed you cut it down to pistol length.

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