[springwalk]

Be honest, do you really prefer plastic over steel? Sure, your plastic is a little lighter, but is that worth the sacrifice of durability and precision?

[deadduck357]

My PPS is as accurate as my P239's and almost as accurate as my P7's.

[HK-Freak]

You sacrifice durability with plastic? Uhhh, I'd put a plastic HK MK23 up against any metal handgun you can think of in a 100,000 round torture test.

[deadduck357]

Being honest I carry the PPS 8 months of the year, the other 4 (winter) is usually my 9mm P239 (live in Tx).

[springwalk]

HK 23 is a freak on steroids with a 6" barrel. I hope it does better than most. I bet my Sig P220 Combat w/5" barrel shoots better than the average HK 23:D

[HK-Freak]

HK 23 is a freak on steroids with a 6" barrel. I hope it does better than most. I bet my Sig P220 Combat w/5" barrel shoots better than the average HK 23:D
You'd lose that bet. There's a reason SDV Teams told NSWC to screw off when they were ordered to turn in their MK23's for P226's.

[HK-Freak]

And I've yet to see a "plastic" gun do this..


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/DSC00028.jpg

[deadduck357]

Oil.

[Dnaltrop]

I like plastic for my CCW as my small children have mastered the art of Instant-penetration when spilling beverages on me. (or peeing... Diapers are designed to fail when babies are held above holsters)

I really do prefer metal. I just would feel bad pouring Milkshakes or juice through the guts of something with more aesthetic appeal. I'll carry my M&P till the youngest is in grade school. ^^

[BlindJustice]

Uh, you mean polymer versus Forged or cast steel?

No contest Forged steel be it semi-auto or revolvers

Period end of story


Randall

[FastMover]

....and I'll bet my G19 can withstand more abuse than your P220.


With the current age polymers durability is something that can surely be noted. The Glock series pistols being the prime example. The idiosyncrasies of a polymer firearm as compared to an all steel or alloy weapon tend to become overlooked.
Now granted while my Glock series pistols may endure far beyond Mr. Springwalk's Combat 220, his weapon and design tends to be more accurate.
I personally feel the accuracy debate has to do more with tolerances, manufacturing, and design than anything. Regardless, If you're worried that a polymer pistol will not withstand abuse then please rest assured that not only mine, but also the majority of police and PSD contractors have proven the polymer gun as a serious contender.

[1858]

And I've yet to see a "plastic" gun do this..

Come on now ... that photo is misleading because the SIG frame is aluminum and aluminum oxide is white, not reddish brown. What you're showing there is rust from a steel magazine that corroded. If you're going to make a point, at least assume that your audience has half a brain!!

[HK-Freak]

Come on now ... that photo is misleading because the SIG frame is aluminum and aluminum oxide is white, not reddish brown. What you're showing there is rust from a steel magazine that corroded. If you're going to make a point, at least assume that your audience has half a brain!!
It's still RUST and it can still DAMAGE the gun, regardless of where it originated.

The only people who think that polymer is inferior to steel are old school shooters in their 70's who've never taken a chemistry class and have no idea how strong polymer is.

[GunTech]

Yes, I prefer steel to polymer. But the simple fact is polymer framed pistols have a longer life. Not theory, well tested fact. Steel fatigues while polymer flexes. Steel rusts and pits while plastics are likely to be environmental hazards for centuries to come.

Aluminum alloys are really the least durable. They offer lightness, but not as much as polymers, while having less durability than steel. Most Al alloy frames have an average life expectancy (there are always exceptions) of 25,000-30,000 rounds. ATF dropped their Sigs because they were replacing them every 6-7 years due to frame cracks. After testing they are adopting Glocks and M&Ps and many federal LE agencies will do follow-on contracts.

For those of us who grew up with the 1911, Browning HP and similar pistols, steel guns will always feel like 'real' guns. To those who are coming of age in the era of composite materials, polymers are the 21st century and steel is old tech.

There nothing wrong with all steel guns, but this whole 'steel is more durable' argument needs to die. The facts don't support the contention. Wishing doesn't make it so.

[AKPastor]

I prefer metal - but its just a preference.

[springwalk]

resting on the decision of dopey budget minded cop gets you a budget minded pistol with high capacity, glock. I'd never take stock in what you local cop department embraces. They were better off with a Clint Eastwood 6 shooter. I'll take accuracy over capacity any day:cool:.

[springwalk]

steel is and always will be superior to plastic.:cool: Plastic is nothing more than a justification to cheapskates

[GunTech]

Please define what you mean by superior.

Do this with your all steel gun: http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

Note that this is one of many durability tests. HK, and SA have also done some testes with their polymer guns. Please point to any similar torture test of an all steel auto. Just one will do.

I like steel myself, and carry an all steel CZ these days. But I am realistic enough to recognize that in almost all applications polymer framed guns come out ahead.

Accuracy is another matter. But then no one has really brought out a polymer framed gun aimed directly at the target market so it's arguable whether superiority of accuracy is even dependent on material of the frame. And both polymer framed and steel framed autos use steel for the slide, barrel, hammer or striker, sear, etc.

And of course it is often desirable to have more weight in a target gun. Steel frames win that one.

[GLOOB]

Plastic isn't a little lighter. Steel is 7 times as heavy as polymer. And alloy, as has been said, is really weak and is hard to refinish. and is still heavier than polymer. Heck, polymer doesn't need any surface finish nor grip panels/screws.

[GunTech]

resting on the decision of dopey budget minded cop gets you a budget minded pistol with high capacity, glock. I'd never take stock in what you local cop department embraces.

1. The testing was carried out by ATF, not the local cops.

2. The standard for testing were scientific and rigorous. The details can be found here: https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=8cd7b13dfefab943e194e68e4a6e23d2&tab=core&_cview=1

For the TL;DR crowd, from S&W press release: The evaluation consisted of a multiple- agent, live-fire assessment of 5,000 rounds. Additionally, the pistols were fired 15,000 rounds during the endurance phase of the test, for a total of 20,000 rounds each. The pistols were further subjected to an environmental exposure test and a post-endurance evaluation

With regard to reliability ...the agents' rating sheets, a record was kept of any stoppages or malfunctions that occurred during the live fire testing.[3] These records show that ATF's agents recorded 58 stoppages with Sig Sauer's full-size and compact pistols, 13 of which were considered to be gun-induced and 45 shooter-induced.[4] Id., Tab 2, Competitive Range Determination, at 3.[5] In contrast, the agents recorded a total of 16 shooter‑induced stoppages for Smith & Wesson's guns and 7 shooter-induced stoppages for Glock's guns. There were no gun-induced stoppages recorded for the Smith & Wesson or Glock guns.

Other interesting reading here, particularly with the failure of the Sig provided handguns: http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm

In particular Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements.[11] We disagree.

I'll take the results of systematic and thorough testing over the unsupported opinion of someone on a gun board any day.

[Dudemeister]

I can appreciate both. I have a couple of Walthers, but I also have a few Colts, Browning and SAA, etc. I can appreciate the design and reliability of a Glock or a Walther, but some guns are also works of art.

When is the last time you saw a beautifully engraved plastic frame?

[GunTech]

Agree 100%

The Polymer framed gun is like the reliable jeep. Not pretty but always starts and gets you where you need to go. If I could only have one handgun and I knew it needed to last for a lifetime, I'd pick something like G19.

Fortunately, I don't have to make that choice and have a large assortment to choose from. And strapping on blued steel and wood is as much fashion statement as personal protection (admit it). :)

[Dudemeister]

Agree 100%

The Polymer framed gun is like the reliable jeep. Not pretty but always starts and gets you where you need to go. If I could only have one handgun and I knew it needed to last for a lifetime, I'd pick something like G19.

Fortunately, I don't have to make that choice and have a large assortment to choose from. And strapping on blued steel and wood is as much fashion statement as personal protection (admit it). :)
I admit it

Let's face it. One of the first things we do when we buy a gun is look for ways to dress it up. Fancy grips, upgraded hammers, triggers, slides, color case hardened or stainless steel parts, etc.

I mean what cool grips choices do we have for a Glock?

[sansone]

blue steel for me.. but I AM a geezer :D

[GunTech]

That is certainly one area where steel still rules. With all the polymer framed guns, you basically get what they give you. You can tart them up a bit, but nothing like you can with a more traditional handgun.

I've been eying some cocobolo grips for my CZ, maybe a flat SA trigger and match hammer. Possibly recontour the trigger guard and hard chrome the frame.

I've swapped out a number of parts on my G23 (trigger, disconnector, etc) but it still basically looks just like any other Glock.

[springwalk]

plastic...really? Give me a break! My P7 after 50 rounds will melt any tupperware you carry:D Seriously though, when the forces of life press upon me and I need a sidearm to give me comfort I feel better with an all steel piece than plastic, despite what some yuppie gun mag writer babbles about.:)

[deadduck357]

I admit it

Let's face it. One of the first things we do when we buy a gun is look for ways to dress it up. Fancy grips, upgraded hammers, triggers, slides, color case hardened or stainless steel parts, etc.

I mean what cool grips choices do we have for a Glock?

One of the first things I do when I buy a firearm is break it down, clean and lube.

One of the other first things is shoot it.

I don't want grip panels on my Glocks.

Some have different criteria for their arms, some want one that shoots good and some want one that looks good.

[A and O]

I have multiples of both and both will outlast me. There are advantages to both so I'll continue to upgrade over time as technology improves. Great time to be alive, I would not change places with any other generation.

[springwalk]

Glock is always the answer for cheapskates:rolleyes:. Good solid purchases for the money but definately not the best.

[lions]

Good solid purchases for the money but definately not the best.

Best for you isn't best for me and probably isn't best for the next guy.

What do you have to show us that determines polymer isn't as durable as steel?
What evidence for less precision? Can it be attributed to the polymer frame or is it due to different trigger mechanisms, etc?

It seems all you want is to perpetuate a polymer bashing thread, if that is the case let me know and I'll check out and let you proceed without interruption.

[springwalk]

lie-ons, I guarantee my all steel HK P7 will easily out shoot any of your tupperware. Just saying:D.

[lions]

Is that solely a function of the frame material or are there other factors at work?

In the big picture, you may realize a slightly increased accuracy potential from that particular gun in a bullseye competition, but at what point does that benefit become outweighed by the benefits of polymer? I'll tell you the answer varies for everyone and depends on what they are doing and how they like to do it. There is no one best.

[deadduck357]

Is that solely a function of the frame material or are there other factors at work?

In the big picture, you may realize a slightly increased accuracy potential from that particular gun in a bullseye competition, but at what point does that benefit become outweighed by the benefits of polymer? I'll tell you the answer varies for everyone and depends on what they are doing and how they like to do it. There is no one best.

Give up, the more you feed the more it poops

[RevolvingGarbage]

A good friend of mine just traded an HK USP40 away and used the cash to buy a near-new Taurus PT-1911.

We agree, the important distinction between the two can be summed up simply with the word "Substantial".

Plastic framed guns rarely have the same substantial feel in the hand that a good steel or at least aluminum framed handgun has.

[JQP]

I was a combat tupperware doubter for a long time, but let's face it (even the diehard 1911 fans out there), polymer is a great medium on which to build a pistol receiver if durability, reliability and longevity are the goals.

I do agree that alloy or steel frame pistols feel much better in my hand.

But in a SHTF scenario, it's a Glock 19 or Glock 17 for me, no second guesses or hesitation about it, and that pretty much settles the argument for me.

I do not care which costs more to manufacture. Regarding the issues that are pertinent to this discussion, that's a red herring.

[HK-Freak]

A good friend of mine just traded an HK USP40 away and used the cash to buy a near-new Taurus PT-1911.


Hahaha, good trade :rolleyes:

[RevolvingGarbage]

Hahaha, good trade :rolleyes:
Sure was. That USP had crappy polymer mags that couldn't even lock the slide back reliably, felt absurdly top heavy with anything less than a full magazine, and the serrations on the grips were like a cheese grater on the hand after much firing of stout .40 ammo.

But with a name like HK-freak, I don't expect you to agree that it was anything less than highway robbery. :neener:

[springwalk]

The only HK I like is the P7, just as the only Sig a P220, but a 210 would be nice I bet. Generally, tupperware isnt special to talk about. Heck even Springfield & S&W are:barf: making tupperware

[Peakbagger46]

Make mine plastic. Put it this way, if I knew I was going to be in a gunfight today and had the choice between a kimber 1911 and a glock 27 (and I've owned both), I would take the glock, hands down. I don't care if its ugly, it works, and I would bet my life on a plastic gun.

[justgoto]

Steel rusts and pits while plastics are likely to be environmental hazards for centuries to come.

I had my 22 rifle in a bag waiting to be blued for a decade or so, a few years back. When I checked it one day, I noticed all the metal parts were fine but the plastic parts were being eaten by a mold of some sort. I haven't found what can stop the mold from growing yet. Luckily it doesn't eat very fast.

[PabloJ]

The big HK .45 was first handgun I have ever owned. Money was no object and I wanted something a newbie like me could shoot well with very little practice. It filled that bill perfectly recoil with 230gr ball was no issue and reliability even with subsonic HPs was 100%. Alas I found no need to such large offensive gun so I sold it. For expensive piece it was surprisingly easy gun to sell.
I have $1500 P7M13 deluxe paperweight on hold for one week. Who knows I may even buy it.

[vaherder]

Springwalk,

Do you have any real world experience to support your assumptions? No not at the range or plinking. Maybe combat? My H&K23 Tupperware special against your favorite piece of oxide.

Tupperware rules in life and in the fridge! Except for Glocks which only work well in old toilet tanks to reduce water consumption.

VA herder

[REAPER4206969]

I strongly prefer polymer.

[19-3Ben]

I haven't found what can stop the mold from growing yet.

Wipe it down thoroughly with Clorox wipes. Then don't put it back in that bag because that bag has mold spores all inside of it and will just start the process over again. Put in new bag, and you're good to go.

[danez71]

steel is and always will be superior to plastic


Do you have supporting evidence or is this conjecture?

Please elaborate this overly generalize statement.

[cfullgraf]

steel is and always will be superior to plastic.:cool: Plastic is nothing more than a justification to cheapskates

Formula One race car chassis used to made from steel, then aluminum, and now carbon fiber composite plastic. I doubt a Formula One engineer will say steel is superior to plastic.

It depends on the application. Most of the polymer frames guns I know of use metal components in particular locations like slide rails because the properties of the metal provide improved performance over polymer materials.

Polymer frames provide improved manufacturing and reduced costs as once the mold is made there is little or no finish work required. Compare that to a metal frame gun and all the whittling needed to make the frame out of a chunk of metal.

I like my M1911s and my S&W M&Ps. Lots of reliable shooting from both. If anything, I am less happy with my aluminum framed pistols.

I am more concerned with the reliability and reputation of a firearm, not the material it is made from.

[jeepguy]

i went from an xd .40 my first handgun to a beretta 92 9mm & sig 226 .40 to now a cz 75 compact. i also have two kimber pro carry's one 9mm & one .45 and want to sell the the 9mm to buy a all steel .45 commander. i don't care for plastic handguns, and as much as i like the alloy ones i don't believe they will hold up in time so im buying a couple all steel to go with my alloy framed pistols.

[Nushif]

I love these threads.

It's pretty obvious the OP is just fishing for confirmation on his own opinion. Do I (currently) like my steel better than my polymer? Sure.
That'll change the moment I hold a better one in my hand that happens to be made of an alternative construction materials.

Do you *really* think architects have mudslinging contests about whose concrete is better?

[RevolvingGarbage]

HE DID WHAT!?

He TRADED a Heckler und Koch for a used Taurus!? ...
Man you guys are really really getting all twisted up on this!

He sold the HK for $700, bought the Taurus for $550, whats wrong with that?

[GunTech]

lie-ons, I guarantee my all steel HK P7 will easily out shoot any of your tupperware. Just saying.

I'll take that bet. I'll go easy on you and say 2,000 rounds without cleaning. Aggregate score but any any malfunction ends that gun's shooting for the day. No alibis. Your P7 for my G19 and we'll compete for 'pink slips'. I make it over to Portland a couple of times a years, so I suggest tri-county for the shoot-off.

Up for it?

[Nushif]

I make it over to Portland a couple of times a years, so I suggest tri-county for the shoot-off.

Mary's Peak! Outdoor conditions to boot. Also, I wanna be there for it.

[ohwell]

ahhhhh put your money where your mouth is time I see a long silence ending this thread lol

[harmon rabb]

The only people who think that polymer is inferior to steel are old school shooters in their 70's who've never taken a chemistry class and have no idea how strong polymer is.

In terms of durability, absolutely. When you see someone list durability of a positive for steel, and a negative for polymer, you know you're looking at someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

There are plenty of reasons to prefer steel pistols over polymer ones, but durability and longevity are NOT them.

[KenW.]

For hierlooms I'll go with metal framed 1911s and BHPs. For daily working guns (XD-Glock) I do not mind polymer a bit.

[daorhgih]

Going-on 7,000,000 (yep: MILLIONS) gun buyers have evaluated the value for dollar equation and have bought Glocks with their own cold, hard cash. Ten years to do it, and Glock beats out what 1911-tipos and clones have done in over 90 years. Glock trumps any tin gun by a great deal, Sure, there may be more tin guns out there, but they were forced upon military shooters by government contracts. As for a .22 rifle corroding in a bucket: was that the Glock Model-zero-1 rifle? Or some other long gun by Glock? "Poly" comes before "tin", even in the dictionary. Tin loses.

[Fastcast]

Since when does most sold equate to BEST?...... It usually always equates to economical, mediocrity. :neener:

[sxcamaro05]

What do I prefer? Steel of course. It feels better, shines, and just gives a better impression IMHO. Now I still like polymer guns for their ruggedness and toughness but besides that they will never be as nice to look at (when compared to metal).

[Fastcast]

Sure, we can believe everything the ATF says :rolleyes:......If confiscation day comes, polymer is better/easier to melt down (on site) with their Bic lighters. :evil:

Plastic is most certainly more durable for those type of individuals who don't like to maintain what they own.....More durable yes, from corrosion and neglect but is it a stronger compound than steel?

Did someone mention JEEP and reliable? :scrutiny: LMAO

BTW.....You can change your grip panels on your poly pistol.....I believe the procedure is as follows:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/fastcast/Glock21FrameCloseUp_640x480.gif

[GLOOB]

When the chips fall, I'll take whichever is closest. I have faith that all my firearms will go bang when I pull the trigger.

When I'm at home, I spend more time with my steel guns. Cleaning, repairing, dryfiring, sometimes refinishing. My preferred carry gun these days is also a steel gun, although that changes like the wind. I keep just one loaded Glock at home that sits in a holster in the same exact spot, unless I take it to the range. So at home, I handle steel and/or alloy guns quite often, and hardly ever the polymer.

But at the range, it's the opposite. I prefer the Glock grip shape/angle, practical accuracy, recoil characteristics, and trigger when actually shooting. I put a few through the steel autos, but mostly prefer to shoot my Glocks and my .357.

Mostly people like shooting guns they're good with. A lot of people who try Glocks end up liking them.

[hardworker]

I'm a firm believer in "where there's smoke there's fire". And the writing is on the walls. Polymer is the way of the future for working guns. What people forget is that not everyone is a gun fanatic. Cops and ATF Agents carry because they have to, not because they want to. Therefore, they look at a gun as a tool for a job. Polymer guns are very light and very durable. They appeal to those who value usefulness above all else.

Myself, I'd rather have a steel revolver than anything else. But I'm not gonna pretend that they're the best for the job.

[KodiakBeer]

Yes, I prefer steel to polymer. But the simple fact is polymer framed pistols have a longer life. Not theory, well tested fact.

Oh, come on! I have several steel guns well over 100 years old that still function just fine. No plastic gun will be functional at that age.

[Balrog]

Oh, come on! I have several steel guns well over 100 years old that still function just fine. No plastic gun will be functional at that age.

Its just a matter of time before you break your antique.

I don't want to be counting on any 100 year old pistol, plastic or steel, in a life and death situation.

[hardworker]

Any 100 year old gun that still works has not seen much use. Metal and plastic wear when they rub against each other or themselves.

[KodiakBeer]

Its just a matter of time before you break your antique.

Yet, compare that to plastic. Metal will last thousands of years if properly cared for. Plastic has a shelf life, it begins to degrade the moment it's produced. I'm sure the modern plastics in guns are fine for many years, but it's silly to claim they'll outlast metal.

[Fastcast]

Its just a matter of time before you break your antique.

I don't want to be counting on any 100 year old pistol, plastic or steel, in a life and death situation.

Most all the vintage "antique" tools I have, not just firearms, are the most dependable, well built things I own. They will most likely out live me and give some other fine gentleman the same pleasure.

On the other hand, most stuff being built today, well isn't really worth speaking about, besides how much it will cost to replace its broken carcass for the 1/2 dozenth time. :banghead:

[The Lone Haranguer]

Who says a properly designed polymer framed pistol is less durable? The plastic might degrade over many years if left out in the elements, but metal will corrode into uselessness too. All those old guns you see in pristine shape are that way because they were never used. There is no evidence that poly is less durable with extensive shooting either. As for the accuracy, most are designed as police and military service pistols. Perhaps they sacrifice an inch or two in group size at 50 yards, but that is the price you pay for reliability under adverse conditions. Any decent pistol is more accurate than most shooters.

If a pistol does what I want it to, I don't care what it is made of.

[ttheel]

I have polymer guns but none of them look like this!:D131035

[GunTech]

For all you people claiming 'plastic has a shelf life' can you please post your credentials as polymer chemists, or even material scientists. As I posted in another thread, there are literally tens of thousands of polymeric compounds used in various applications and their strength, plasticity, resistance to chemicals etc are as varied as as can be imagined. PVC, Kevlar, Perlon, PET, Nylon etc are just some of the numerous polymeric materials in use today and are as different between each other as night an day.

Shelf life? Based on simulated exposure, some polymers are estimated to have working lives in excess of one thousand years!

Certainly a steel gun can last 100 years. I own several that are at least that old and still work. How many have 250,000 rounds through them? Because there are a number of documented polymer framed handguns in use right now with those round counts.

This has been covered many times already. Modern polymers are not the same stuff used in 1050s Japanese made toys.

Fastcat, I can show you some good steel guns that have failed to. Particularly after a paltry 25,000 rounds or so, which is hardly anything for a modern polymer framed pistol.

Strength, in material science, is the ability to withstand and applied stress without failure. Do you mean tensile strength, Compressive strength, fatigue strength, impact strength or shear strength?

Are you talking about strength per unit of mass, or strength for an equally dimensioned part?

There are quite a few composites that pound for pound are quite a bit stronger than steel. Polymer framed pistols typically have a fatigue strength far above anything steel can withstand. Under impact, steel will permanently deform or fracture, where a polymer will flex.

on the other hand, steel is typically more abrasion resistant than the polymers used in handgun frames. It's also more resistant to sharp tools.

Given that the main stress on a handgun frame is fatigue stress for repeated recoil, a more 'plastic' material tends to last longer.

Keep in mind that it will depend on the polymer involved. Just as zinc does not have the same characteristic as steel, there are polymers that are appropriate for gun applications, and there are others that are not. Only the most uniformed person would lump advanced polymers used in firearms with the unsophisticated plastics used in cheap consumer goods.

How many afficianaods of steel guns would swap woven steel for kevlar in their bullet resistant vests?

[OldCavSoldier]

I love my M&P9 for nasty weather shooting and when I will need the tactical light / laser on the rail.

I prefer my M39 and Colt Cbt Cdr and Sig 239 and *old* PPK because the metal gives them a heft that just *feels* better to me.

Either polymer or metal...both have their uses...both have their values.

[Johnny Guest]

closed