Annealing Rifle Brass


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frankge
November 23, 2010, 08:01 PM
Does 7.62x39 rifle brass need annealing after a certain number of firings? I notice some of the PMC and Prvi brass comes new with the annealing mark on it.

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Walkalong
November 23, 2010, 09:40 PM
All brass is annealed. Military brass, and I guess some others, have not been tumbled to remove the mark. How often should you anneal? That can be debated for days. I do not bother with it for common brass.

FROGO207
November 23, 2010, 11:20 PM
Yeah that is up for debate for sure. I do anneal my bottle neck brass after every other reloading unless I have a buttload and don't care if it splits the neck. In my experience the annealed brass will last most times until the primer pockets loosen up rather than splitting the case necks. Is it worth the hassle? I do it as a matter of procedure and do think that on say 7.62X54 the longer case life is a benefit. On 5.56 NATO? Probably not as the brass is so inexpensive to begin with.

R.W.Dale
November 23, 2010, 11:44 PM
I still have a batch of RP 7.62x39 cases left over from when I had an AR15 so chambered that was on it's 13th loading when I sold the upper. My routine was to anneal on the 7th loading and to use a case gauge to prevent overworking the cases.

justgoto
November 24, 2010, 01:46 AM
My routine was to anneal on the 7th loading

That is what I do also. I only anneal bottle-necked brass, the straightwalled brass just gets reloaded until the neck splits.

I have gotten over 50 firings with both 30-30 and 30-06 brass and still counting.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 24, 2010, 04:22 AM
Is there any benefit annealing 22-250 brass if I'm only neck sizing? The shoulders stay where they are after having been fired in the same gun several times,don't they? Do I understand correctly that annealing softens the shoulder so when it is moved at all during reloading it is less likely to fail at the shoulder? If I can get longer lifespans by annealing then I'll learn how and do it.

justgoto
November 24, 2010, 05:16 AM
Is there any benefit annealing 22-250 brass if I'm only neck sizing?
Unless the shoulder starts making the cartridge hard to chamber,I only neck size. Neck sizing only, just as annealing, is another important part of lengthening case life.

The shoulders stay where they are after having been fired in the same gun several times,don't they?
No. They will lengthen slightly every shot. If you have hot loads they will lengthen a lot. When my shoulders get to long, the cartridge will be hard to chamber. Then, I'll full length size trying to bump the shoulder back .001".

Do I understand correctly that annealing softens the shoulder so when it is moved at all during reloading it is less likely to fail at the shoulder?
Yes. Annealing softens the shoulder and a soft shoulder is more pliable, able to take more working of the metal.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 24, 2010, 05:58 AM
Well,it looks like I'll be learning another reloading tool. I'm getting there,but some of it comes slow to me. Yesterday I learned that primer pocket reaming all cases to the same depth and weighing each piece of brass,choosing only the ones weighing the same would give me more uniform cases to use just for target rounds and the rest fouling and plinking rounds. According to my mentor I'm reaching the end of the line when it comes to loading for a factory gun.The rest is up to me. Still have to teach myself to find a better seating depth for my gun.

Walkalong
November 24, 2010, 11:17 AM
Unless the shoulder starts making the cartridge hard to chamber,Yep, that is when I did my .222 Mag cases. They don't fall off trees like .223 cases do. Besides, my .223 cases have held up until the primer pockets get too loose, so I don't worry about it.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 24, 2010, 03:07 PM
Could someone please post a link to a good annealing tutorial thread here at THR?

rcmodel
November 24, 2010, 03:20 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5528582&postcount=4

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

IMO: For a 7.62x39, or a .223 auto-loader, I would be more concerned about using the cases enough times to ever need annealing.
Check for an internal stretch ring with an L-bent paper-clip.
If you can feel it, the case is history.

rc

Ruger GP100 fan
November 24, 2010, 03:25 PM
It's a bolt 22-250.

rcmodel
November 24, 2010, 03:35 PM
Sorry, I was still pondering on the OP's question about annealing 7.62x39.

As for the 22-250?
I did anneal mine every few firing cycles.
But I also neck-reamed them every few firing cycles, or the necks would get too thick to release the bullet in the chamber.

Check yours by trying a new bullet in a fired case before resizing.
If it won't fall in of it's own weight, the necks are getting too thick and need to be inside reamed or outside turned.

rc

Ruger GP100 fan
November 24, 2010, 04:06 PM
Is reaming by simply loading a cordless drill with the proper dia. reamer and running it through the neck an acceptable method? Or do they make hand-held reamers you can turn by hand while holding the case in a shell holder?

Many thanks for the links,by the way.

jmorris
November 24, 2010, 04:35 PM
You don't have to anneal at all but your brass will not last as long as properly annealed cases. I get mixed cases from range brass and built an automatic annealer so I run new to me through each time, to keep it simple. If I know that it's mine I anneal once every three firings.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/DSC01810.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/th_nottoohot.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/?action=view&current=nottoohot.flv)

rcmodel
November 24, 2010, 05:36 PM
Is reaming by simply loading a cordless drill with the proper dia. reamer
No! You could not even begin to ream it straight enough with a cordless drill.

The neck reamers I have fit in my case trimmer just like a trimmer pilot.
You put the case in the case trimmer collet, and turn the crank.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/client_images/catalog19938/pages/files/Neck_Reamers_NR1000-001.pdf

rc

Ruger GP100 fan
November 24, 2010, 07:33 PM
I sorta expected that. Any drill/core drill/reamer will just try it's best to follow the hole that's already there. Years ago when I ran lathes cutting mostly cast iron many had cored holes where we would machine further by whatever means the engineers dictated. Run-out was always the price of cutting corners by simply drilling or reaming the hole. The only way,from my experience,is to bore the hole before using a drill or reamer,at least with cast iron.
How close does your machine come to eliminating all run-out and how close to being concentric with the rest case does it come? I may just have to get myself one of those.
I should add here as I have before posting questions about making great brass that I have only a factory rifle,but I still want to take this brass thing clear to the end and I greatly appreciate your excellent responses,as I also appreciate the help all posters provide. I think I can honestly say that to me the ideal situation would be concentrating on reloading but having a great marksman doing the range thing. I love sitting at the press and working with a marksman to get ammo as close to perfect as possible would be exciting.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 24, 2010, 07:39 PM
By the way,frankge,I sorta took your thread and ran with it. My apologies if you consider my actions hyjacking,but hopefully you do not and are learning as much from your thread as I am.

Walkalong
November 24, 2010, 08:08 PM
Wilson makes neck reamers (http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=33313/Product/Wilson_Neck_Reamer) to fit their trimmer as well.

frankge
November 25, 2010, 10:09 PM
fine by me

Walkalong
November 25, 2010, 11:29 PM
One thing to remember when full length sizing is that if the sizer is set for work hardened brass, after annealing it will push the shoulder back too far if not re-adjusted. The soft brass gets pushed back further, and does not spring back as much.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 26, 2010, 12:05 AM
I have been resizing with a full-length die that I back off about 3/4 of a turn and am not touching the shoulders. Will I run into problems after annealing the necks?

Walkalong
November 26, 2010, 02:15 PM
Problems? I wouldn't think so.

Are you checking where your shoulder is? If you are, just check after sizing an annealed case with the sizer set the same as before. You will find it is different now. Just re-adjust it. Or back the sizer off to begin with, and work up to where you want to be with the first case.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 27, 2010, 08:23 PM
WOW,jmorris. I just got around to checking out your photobucket. Great design and build!

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 08:26 PM
WOW,jmorris
jmorris is a freakin' genius.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 27, 2010, 11:11 PM
Just finished reading an annealing article here: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html ,but some of the info is unclear to me. It says that to properly anneal brass "662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes" is needed or that "750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds" Later on it explains the one-at-a-time method using some sort of simple holder to rotate the case until the desired temp,then dropping the case into water,apparently taking just a few seconds to do 1 case, but it is suggested that 650-750 rated Tempilaq be used. This would not provide the "750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds" . Can someone please explain or point out what I'm not seeing? I intend to try my hand at annealing by some kind of manual procedure and using either Tempilaq or Templstiks.

fguffey
November 28, 2010, 01:01 AM
A X B= C, Volts X Amps = Watts, Distance X Weight = foot pounds (torque)

662 degree for 15 minutes makes sense to some reloaders because to most time is not a factor meaning heat travels, while taking 15 minutes to heat the mouth/shoulder (with a little bitty torch) of the case with a torch, the head of the case will be rendered scrap, like the hot horse shoe when picked up burns some, for others that put it down fast because it does not take them long to look at it.

To some waving the case over a fire is all that is required, I am a big supporter to the ideal heat travels and time is a factor, then heat is variable, change orifice or get a bigger torch. I make my own tools for annealing because I believe heat travels and I am not timid about putting heat on the neck shoulder, and it does not take me long to look at it.

F. Guffey

Ruger GP100 fan
November 28, 2010, 01:09 AM
Not sure I got my question worded right. If it takes 750-800 to anneal in just seconds why are they recommending only a 650-750 Tempilaq to change the color in just seconds? Won't the brass be under-annealed or even maybe not at all.

Ruger GP100 fan
November 28, 2010, 01:13 AM
You are probably going by the color change in the brass and have done a lot of annealing,if I understand you correctly. I'm a beginner so I would prefer to use a product like Tempilaq or Templstik.

fguffey
November 28, 2010, 11:17 AM
The name on the sticks I use is TEMPILSTIK, I also have an 8 position pyrometer then I purchased the $25.00 dollar Harbor freight point and click like the one used to check the temperature of the pythons in Florida, at one foot away it is off about 2%, again heat travels, up close the ambient heat around the heated case could melt the plastic.

So assuming I determine heat by color is OK, one day someone will determine the temperature of heat travel down the case while it is being annealed,. On the Internet there are claims of annealing with a candle while the case is being held in the hand with the rational, when the case gets to hot to hold in the fingers it's done, other claims, I use a holder because the head of the case gets too hold to hold by the fingers? Then there is the link to u-tube, the narrator gets up in front of the camera and becomes the authority of annealing, he says "They say,,,,,,,,, do not listen to them because it is not important....they are wrong" for those that are watching and listening and are not dunces they will notice right off he spends too much time looking at it., he needs a bigger torch then we come back to where we started, All I want to anneal is the neck, sometimes that includes the neck, shoulder and part of the case body when forming cases from work hardened brass (fired more than once) when I do not want to use new bras, in the perfect world when forming brass new cases are used, I do not mean sizing a case, chamber and then pull the trigger, to me that is fired brass, not fire formed brass, again I form first then fire.

I control heat travel and the time I spend looking at it.

http://www.industrial-needs.com/measuring-instruments/pyrometers.htm

F. Guffey

fguffey
November 28, 2010, 11:26 AM
.....too hot to hold....

forgive,

F. Guffey

fguffey
November 28, 2010, 11:31 AM
http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm

F. Guffey

Ruger GP100 fan
November 28, 2010, 05:42 PM
We posted identical articles from differing sites.

What Tempilstik do you use?

Ruger GP100 fan
November 29, 2010, 02:27 AM
I have 48 pieces of brass that have been together since new and fired 6 times,all identical loads and loaded at same time. Right now they are fully prepped for reloading,having been neck sized,trimmed and primer pockets reamed to same depth. I know you are supposed to anneal before resizing and trimmed,but can I begin annealing with these pieces and resize and trim them again?
Also,supposing I can provide enough heat to bring them to temp within a few seconds,what Tempilstick should I use?

bullitmaster
January 27, 2011, 07:05 PM
I was wondering about my brass spliting after only 1 reload. Win brass. The fella at Cabelas said all I needed to do was to hold the brass 1 piece at at time by the base and heat the neck area until I could no longer hold on to it, then drop it in a bucket of room temp water. He said there was no need to go out and buy those expensive gadgits as long as you dont mind doing it one piece at a time. I mainly load for hunting so I may give this a try. 22-250,243,6.5x55,25-06,257wby,7.5x55, 270,30-06,7MM,300WinMag,300WbyMag,30-378WbyMag

ArchAngelCD
January 28, 2011, 02:18 AM
The fella at Cabelas said all I needed to do was to hold the brass 1 piece at at time by the base and heat the neck area until I could no longer hold on to it, then drop it in a bucket of room temp water.
The only problem with that method is the temperature of the flame you use. If the flame is very hot you will exceed the recommended temp on the neck before the base becomes too hot to hold. (ruining the brass) If your flame is too cool you will not reach the temp needed to anneal the brass before the base of the case becomes too hot to hold. (waste of time)

jmorris
January 28, 2011, 10:49 AM
The only problem with that method is the temperature of the flame you use. If the flame is very hot you will exceed the recommended temp on the neck before the base becomes too hot to hold. (ruining the brass) If your flame is too cool you will not reach the temp needed to anneal the brass before the base of the case becomes too hot to hold. (waste of time)


Yep, after annealing on my machine they can be picked right up as shown in the video on the first page. The "too hot to hold", "just turns (insert any shade) red/orange, are terms that have caused more brass to be ruined. FWIW you know you are over doing it if your flame even turns orange, using propane.

kelbro
January 28, 2011, 12:20 PM
FWIW you know you are over doing it if your flame even turns orange, using propane.

Your flame or your brass? Can you elaborate?

Thanks

cheygriz
January 28, 2011, 02:19 PM
A good rule of thumb in my experience!

If you have cases formed from other calibers, anneal them.

If you can buy the ammo, or brass ready to shoot, don't waste the time and propane annealing.

jmorris
January 28, 2011, 08:11 PM
Quote:


FWIW you know you are over doing it if your flame even turns orange, using propane.


Your flame or your brass? Can you elaborate?


Your flame, the say a photo is worth 1000 words so a video is even better, click on the photos.


This is what the process should be. No change in flame color and the base of the brass is cool right after annealing, and its uniform around the case.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/th_nottoohot.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/annealer/?action=view&current=nottoohot.mp4)

This is what it looks like when you over anneal, notice the flame change color at the end of the cycle.
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/th_annealer.jpg (http://s121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/?action=view&current=annealer.mp4)

kelbro
January 28, 2011, 10:45 PM
Gotcha. Great video. Thanks!

GLOOB
July 16, 2011, 01:14 AM
Just tried annealing some brass, and it was pretty easy.

I had 5 pieces of lake city that failed a case gauge after 2 attempts at resizing. I twirled each one under a propane torch for just 4-5 seconds. None of them turned red. They didn't get too hot to hold at the base. 3 of them had a little bit of darkening at the shoulder. 2 of them looked exactly like new brass - no color change, at all. They all passed the case gage after resizing.

I saw some other vid online where the guy used dual MAPP torches, and he left the brass for awhile. The flame turned orange. The brass turned orange, too. I guess there are different ways to do it. Maybe he was doing a caliber conversion?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU21wjeC1Xo
Whadya guys think? Is he overdoing it?

jmorris
July 16, 2011, 08:41 AM
Yes, that is way to much. Part of his problem is that he doesn't know that an IR thermometer doesn't work at measuring the temperature he is looking to measure. Really, he thinks glowing brass is only 400 degrees?

Same goes for using IR to measure molten lead too.

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