Advanced neck sizing 101


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R.W.Dale
November 26, 2010, 11:25 AM
I'd like to have a discussion about some of the more advanced or technical aspects of neck sizing rifle cartridges with accuracy being really the only concerns.

In my readings I've found that there seems to be four schools of thought with regards to the amount of neck sizing to do.

1. Neck size the entire neck just shy of pushing the shoulder back

2. Size only half the neck or whatever is necessary to ensure adequate neck tension

3. Partial length resize everything noting and measuring shoulder setback to be a minimum required for that rifle

4. Use a Lee collet die (where I usually fall, cept I don't own one for 308 yet)

Please share your findings and results that you've seen particularly if you've employed more than one of the methods outlined above

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jfdavis58
November 26, 2010, 11:51 AM
I spent most of last summer pushing 308 bullets employing a variety of 'sizing' techniques during reloading. My ability to place accurate shots improved tremendously. Reams of paper, stacks of targets and lots of empty component containers.

In an over the counter rifle the most improvement occurs when the correct load/dimensions are found/discovered. Nothing else shows much statistical improvement.

In a 'tuned' rifle once again the right load shows the best improvement. Improving the dimensions of the case makes some difference (neck turning, trimming, uniforming primer pockets, chamfering)and these changes stick for several reload cycles.

The mixed bag of techniques you list provide a mixed bag of outcomes, none of which do much for just general purpose ammunition-hunting, target shooting some general competition). I suspect they do have specific application to extremely tight tolerance rifles and custom equipment and certain high precision activities, but....

In a 'custom' rifle-I don't know. They cost more than I'm willing to afford.

ranger335v
November 26, 2010, 06:41 PM
The Lee Collet sizes the full neck so that's not an issue.

There is no point in neck sizing below the base of bullet contact.

243winxb
November 26, 2010, 07:44 PM
The Lee Collet sizes the full neck so that's not an issue.

Partial neck sizing with collet die

If you want to resize just a part of the neck, find a washer at your local hardware store the has an inner diameter large enough to fit over the case, and an outer diameter large enough so that it contacts the collet sleeve that protrudes from the bottom of the die. Slide this washer over the case after the case has been inserted into the shell plate. Now when the ram is raised, you can still close the collet by applying force at the top of the stroke, but the case will not go up as far into the collet, and the neck will be sized less an amount equal to the thickness of the washer.

Walkalong
November 26, 2010, 08:02 PM
Partial neck sizing with collet die

If you want to resize just a part of the neck, find a washer at your local hardware store the has an inner diameter large enough to fit over the case, and an outer diameter large enough so that it contacts the collet sleeve that protrudes from the bottom of the die.
I cut a washer to fit the shell holder and epoxied it to the shell holder. .22 Hornet-years ago. I use a Redding bushing type sizer now.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=99890&d=1244850127

flashhole
November 26, 2010, 09:13 PM
The 5th method would be to use the bushing type die. Some folks like the bushing type better than the Lee Collet Neck Die because they can adjust neck tension with the bushing. Neither of these methods requires pulling an expander ball up through the neck after it has been sized down. All the other methods you list require an expander ball that can distort the neck after it has been fire-formed then resized. Personally I like the Lee CND and have developed a feel for using it.

1858
November 27, 2010, 03:00 AM
I neck size .308 Win cases with a Redding competition neck sizing die. I don't size the whole neck, more like 80% of the neck. I bump the shoulder back to SAAMI or SAAMI - 0.001" with a body die in a separate step and trim the cases to length. I was using a 0.338" neck sizing bushing since the O.D. of A-MAX bullets in the Lapua brass I have measures 0.339". Redding suggests 0.001" of neck tension. Here's the problem though. I found that the 0.338" bushing was giving me inconsistent neck tension due to the case neck wall thickness varying by 0.0015". My solution was to neck size with a 0.337" bushing, then run a R.W. Hart expansion plug (that I bought with a mandrel for neck turning) into the case neck. I then used the mandrel to check the internal neck dimension of each case. Talk about PERFECT. The mandrel fits so well that it rides on a cushion of air in the case. Anyway, when it came time to seat the bullets, every bullet went in with the same amount of resistance. The results at 300 yards were very encouraging and that was off a bipod during a match with a time limit and in windy conditions. I've posted that 17 shot group before but I put 15 shots for record into 2.555" at 300 yards. 14 of those 15 shots for record grouped in 1.693". I'm convinced that the load would shoot 1/4 MOA at 300 yards off a bench with a front and rear rest.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 07:44 AM
1858 - post the target pic again. I always like to see how fellow shooters are doing. I wish we had a 300 yard range here in NY.

243winxb
November 27, 2010, 09:22 AM
Post 6 & 7 are close. Redding FL sizing Type-S Bushing die. If not neck turning, use expander on brass with large case neck wall thickness variations. Control shoulder bump. Size 1/2 of neck .002" smaller than a loaded round neck diameter. You want your reloads to be the same each and every loading. You can not do this with neck sizing only. Do your own testing, like i have , then you will know what works for you. :) Tiny groups require benchrest prep of brass. :uhoh: Post #10 below, good point. I find it takes 3 or more firings, sometimes, for the unsized neck to fully expand. After that, no more springback happens.This works best if the body is FLRSed. IMO. Why i do not like the Lee Collet die > http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/6451001441 I must admit, never used one.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 10:41 AM
I went back are reread the original post and thought bullet 2 deserves an additional comment.

When fired, the entire cartridge case will grow in size to fit the chamber, including the neck. Some guns, like my Ruger #1, are more generous in the neck region than others, like my Kimber Longmaster Classic that has a very tight chamber. The Kimber does not benefit by partial length neck sizing but the Ruger does. Not fully sizing the entire length of the neck allows the case neck to aid in centering the bullet to the bore. Of course the assumption here is the chamber is exactly concentric to the bore to begin with.

My point to bullet 2 is - partial neck sizing can have a larger effect on accuracy than just putting tension on a bullet because it can help with alignment too. The degree of improvement you will get depends largely on the guns chamber.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 10:43 AM
Walkalong - I like the way you use that washer.

jamesicus
November 27, 2010, 10:56 AM
I use an RCBS neck sizing die (30/06) IAW the Manufacturer's instructions. I lube inside the case neck only using a .30 caliber nylon bore brush with Lee Resizing Lubricant. I do not clean the lubricant from inside the case neck.

James

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2010, 11:07 AM
On post 6 and 7

I may be incorrect but doesn't the use of a bushing type setup with no mandrel have a tendency to start to raise a dreaded "doughnut" at the neck shoulder juncture? I know folks like the Lee die because it pushes any neck thickness variations to the outside of the neck where it can then be turned off

I need to buy the stuff to neck turn for sure!

243winxb
November 27, 2010, 11:21 AM
A donut is formed when sizing to a different caliber, not a problem with factory brass. At least i have not run into it with 243win. Sizing down GI 308 to 243, yes, then i get a donut. Before outside neck turning, the inside of the neck is conditioned with an expander of some type. When using a Lyman neck turner, you just FLRS in a standard die with expander, then turn.I need to buy the stuff to neck turn for sure!
The bushing die will get rid of "flyers" for the most part. Neck turning depends on how much you need to size. When the bushing has to size down a fired case more than about .008" , you run into problems. Then you need to size using 2 different bushing, in steps.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 11:27 AM
I have not experienced a donut and it does not make sense to me that using a bushing die will bring a donut into being. I've been cautioned about donuts when re-forming brass where the parent case is larger than the re-form. The two re-forms that I do are 30-06 to 25-06 and 223 to 221 Fireball. In both cases the neck gets thicker but I only have to neck turn for the Fireball because my 25-06 has a generous neck. In the case of the Fireball I use an inside neck reamer at the same time I outside neck turn. Mine is the K&M system.

JDGray
November 27, 2010, 11:34 AM
Are we shooting factory barrels here, or benchrest customs? I have no problem obtaining .5moa groups with factory barrels, using Lee FLS dies. Someday I'll have a custom, and will have to employ all these advanced methods, but for now I'm pretty happy with the simplicity of FLS:)

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2010, 11:35 AM
Case forming aside I always undestood the doughnut phenomena as a brass flow issue from the shoulder into the base of the neck. A die without a mandrel doesn't iron this ring back out as one with a mandrel would.

I dunnow it's all theory to me at this point as I never have shot a lot of high intensity overbore cartridges. It did seem as though on the handloading specific boards the 243 guys were battling with the issue the most

Are we shooting factory barrels here, or benchrest customs?

Custom, 30" McGowan chambered for 308win screwed onto a savage right bolt left port target action. For me for this rig .5moa won't be but about 1/2 way to where I want to be.

243winxb
November 27, 2010, 11:47 AM
krochus, i am not sizing in the "donut" area of the neck as i only size 1/2 of the front part of the neck. I would guess this to be true > the doughnut phenomena as a brass flow issue from the shoulder into the base of the neck. A die without a mandrel doesn't iron this ring back out as one with a mandrel would.

I have measured the thinning of the neck wall when using standard dies with an expander. This really depends on the die set, and the orginal neck wall thickness. It will not happen 100% of the time, if at all. The donut is only a problem if the bullets base come incontact with said donut. JDGray, i am shooting factory, Rem 40x & Rem 600, now. Had many other 243win before.

1858
November 27, 2010, 03:40 PM
Case forming aside I always undestood the doughnut phenomena as a brass flow issue from the shoulder into the base of the neck. A die without a mandrel doesn't iron this ring back out as one with a mandrel would.

Here are some photos for demonstration purposes only. Normally, I would bump the shoulder back with a body die and trim the case to length, prime and add powder. The following photos show a fired and cleaned case, a neck-sized case using a 0.337" TiN bushing, the case after the R.W. Hart expansion plug has been run through the neck, and a seated A-MAX bullet. You can see a slight "donut" at the base of the case neck and you can also see that I neck size about 80% of the neck. This has given me the best results. The A-MAX bullet in question does extend down below the neck so I could run the neck-sizing die down to the bottom of the neck but the "donut" phenomena was worse when doing that and it left a noticeable ring even after the bullet was seated. If you look closely at the last photo, you'll see that the case neck is basically straight once the bullet is seated.

Case fired (three times) and cleaned:
http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/reloading/case_neck/308_neck_size_01.jpg

Neck-sized with a 0.337" TiN bushing:
http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/reloading/case_neck/308_neck_size_02.jpg

Neck expanded with a R.W. Hart expansion plug:
http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/reloading/case_neck/308_neck_size_03.jpg

178gr A-MAX seated to touch the lands:
http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/reloading/case_neck/308_neck_size_04.jpg

Outside of case neck is very, very close to being straight:
http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/reloading/case_neck/308_neck_size_05.jpg

1858
November 27, 2010, 03:55 PM
1858 - post the target pic again. I always like to see how fellow shooters are doing. I wish we had a 300 yard range here in NY.

Here is the target in question shot using ammunition assembled as described in post #7. The shot in the 10-ring on the far right of the 15-shot group took the group from 1.693" to 2.555" i.e. it added close to 1" to the group. I'd happily have another right next to it rather than the left most shot in the 9-ring since in this GAME, small groups don't mean anything if you don't hit what you're aiming at.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/rem700_308win/fclass_tactical_targets/2010/10-24-10/300yard_15shot_group_sm.jpg

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/rem700_308win/fclass_tactical_targets/2010/10-24-10/300yard_15shot_group_zoom_sm.jpg

918v
November 27, 2010, 04:12 PM
I like option number four.

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 04:17 PM
I may be incorrect but doesn't the use of a bushing type setup with no mandrel have a tendency to start to raise a dreaded "doughnut" at the neck shoulder juncture?
Donuts can be caused when turning necks, but not from neck sizing unturned brass with bushing dies.

That is not a "donut" in 1858's pics. That is just where the neck wasn't sized. (Partial neck sizing) Nice looking round though.

I loaded some Hornady 178 Gr A-max's for my sons FIL, but I just FL sized the cases. He could never benefit from any small gains in loading any other way. ;)

He likes them though. The second load I tried got thumbs up from him, so all is good. :)

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:20 PM
OK, great pics but now I'm confused. Your donut was brought about via the process steps you used to process your brass and is exactly what I was describing in post #10. Partial neck sizing will allow the brass to fit snugly in the chamber. For whatever reason, I've always been under the impression the donut, at least the undesirable type, is on the interior of the case neck, not the exterior. An inside neck reamer will not affect what you have done with your brass at all but the inside neck reamer is what is prescribed to get rid of the donut.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:23 PM
Walkalong - is your assertion a donut brought about by neck turning is the undesirable type because it is remnant brass from the turning process? I'm not challenging what you said, I'm just trying to be clear on the issue.

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 04:25 PM
I am saying that is not a "donut". Donuts are a side effect of neck turning. They do not always show up. It depends on if the necks were turned down far enough into the shoulder.

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 04:27 PM
Another note.

The neck on 1885's brass is the same thickness above and below where he sized. A donut is a thick ring in the bottom of the neck which works its way up the neck over time. (firings) As long as it stays under where the bullet is seated to, it is pretty harmless.

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 04:29 PM
A donut is formed when sizing to a different caliber,Yes, that can do it as well. Not necessarily though, it depends on the change in the case.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:31 PM
Is the problem with a donut on the inside or outside of the brass. Take 1858's example. If his "donut" was the result of neck turning instead of partial neck sizing and you ran that brass through a FL sizing die, it would force the excess brass (donut) into the interior of the case. In that occurance, it may prevent proper bullet seating and the only way to get rid of it is by inside neck reaming.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:33 PM
You are posting faster than I can ask questions.

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 04:33 PM
Oh yea, I like 3a. :cool:

1858 is in the 3a area-ish. He just isn't bumping the shoulder a hair every time. He waits until it needs it. (I think) Maybe he is every time. :)

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:38 PM
I hadn't considered the fact that the donut could walk up the neck from multiple firings. I can see where that could become a problem.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:39 PM
krochus - good post, this has been a good dialog.

1858
November 27, 2010, 04:41 PM
That is not a "donut" in 1858's pics. That is just where the neck wasn't sized. (Partial neck sizing) Nice looking round though.

That's why I like this forum so much ... I learn something new everyday. I was under the impression that I had created a slight "donut". Thanks for helping me to feel even better about my reloads.

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 04:45 PM
As the brass flows forward under pressure and we continue to trim to length the dreaded donut gets ever so much closer to our carefully seated bullet. That is why we try so hard to not let it form in the first place.

On my 6 PPC cases that I fire formed from .22 Russian I expanded the necks with a semi custom Sinclair expander (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6317095&postcount=32), then neck reamed (Wilson custom size reamer) and then neck turned (K&M) to the nearest .0001. When I did it right no donut showed up. When I did not..... :o

This was for a tight necked chamber. (.262) Loading for standard chambers, even if it is a "match" chamber that will accept ant SAMMI ammo of the right caliber, is a whole different ball game.

1858
November 27, 2010, 04:49 PM
1858 is in the 3a area-ish. He just isn't bumping the shoulder a hair every time. He waits until it needs it. (I think) Maybe he is every time.

Walkalong ... I measure the "headspace" of every fired case and sort them into lots. If the case is SAAMI or less, I don't bump the shoulder back. If it's greater than SAAMI then I do bump the shoulder back using Redding competition shellholders. I try to bump the shoulder back to SAAMI - 0.001" but so far end up within a range of SAAMI - 0.0015" to SAAMI - 0.0005". I find that bumping the shoulder back accurately is the single most difficult aspect of reloading.

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:51 PM
I do the same thing when re-forming 223 to 221 Fireball. I also make it a point to neck trim so I just encroach on the shoulder and I inside neck ream at the same time I outside neck turn. I must be doing something right because I've not experienced the donut problem. You can see how I re-form my brass at this link. I have modified my process a bit and eliminated a couple of steps but it is pretty representative of what I do.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=54312&highlight=flashhole

flashhole
November 27, 2010, 04:52 PM
Ref post #35 - why would you use SAMMI as a reference datum instead of your chamber dimension?

Walkalong
November 27, 2010, 04:53 PM
I find that bumping the shoulder back accurately is the single most difficult aspect of reloading.
It can certainty be frustrating when trying to bump cases to the same exact spot.

.001 is a very small amount and differences in case spring back can make more difference than that. :banghead:

I feel your pain. :D

1858
November 27, 2010, 05:11 PM
Ref post #35 - why would you use SAMMI as a reference datum instead of your chamber dimension?

I use Redding Instant Indicator Case Comparators for all of my "precision" rifles i.e. .260 Rem, 7mm-08, .308 Win, .300 WSM and .300 Win Mag. These comparators have a solid brass cartridge standard made to SAAMI specs. I set up and zero a dial indicator using the standard. I then measure fired cases and reference them to the standard. Cases fired in my .308 Win show a max headspace of SAAMI + 0.0015" but the vast majority are SAAMI + 0.001" after two or three firings. My bolt will close on a case that is SAAMI + 0.001" with some amount of resistance but not much. The bolt closes effortlessly on cases that are SAAMI.

I don't claim to have all of the answers and maybe I do a bunch of things that are of no benefit at all. I've been reloading for almost 20 years and I'm still learning. This forum and discussions like this have advanced my knowledge ten fold ... no doubt about.

1858
November 27, 2010, 05:20 PM
It can certainty be frustrating when trying to bump cases to the same exact spot.

.001 is a very small amount and differences in case spring back can make more difference than that.

Case spring back is a PITA. I guess I shouldn't feel too bad since new Lapua brass isn't perfect either. I measured the headspace (compared to SAAMI standard) of 200 new Lapua .308 Win cases from the same lot.

-0.003" (7)
-0.0025" (3)
-0.002" (46)
-0.0015" (25)
-0.001" (53)
-0.0005" (24)
0.000" (27)
0.0005" (8)
0.001" (5)
0.0015" (2)

dagger dog
November 27, 2010, 05:48 PM
A Story,

My "target rifle" which is a Ruger MKII Target Varmint .308 WIN caliber, off the shelf, no mods.

I have neck sized fire formed Winchester cased 168 gr SMK over Federal Gold Medal large rifle primers and Varget Powder, reloads 3 different ways;

with a full length RCBS competion die, adjusted to stop at the junction of the neck and shoulder, (partial full length sizing)

with a RCBS neck size only die (mandrel, and sizer ball intact)

Lee Collet at factory adjusment and specs, (using no washer)

Enter the villian (BOOO! HISSS!) ME, my rifle, and my shooting reloading ability;

could not tell ONE FLAMING DIFFERENCE between the three, all else being equal.
As a matter of fact,I shot my smallest grouping to date with these dies, components and rifle,using full length resized cases.

Unless you have a custom chambered, or very unusally tight chambered rifle with a exceptional factory barrel, most of the "tricks" to neck sizing are wasted time.

But most handloader, reloaders, love the challenge and continue in the SEARCH :D

USSR
November 27, 2010, 06:13 PM
1858's picture of that 178gr Amax, inspired me to post this picture of the 8 point buck I took with the same bullet in my '06. Great match AND hunting bullet.

Don
http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Deer2010A.jpg

918v
November 27, 2010, 06:47 PM
I have encountered doughnuts in unturned necks, specifically in Norma .22-250 brass. This particular brand has very thick case walls all the way up to the base of the neck, but the neck is standard thickness. After five reloads, or so, doughnuts appeared.

R.W.Dale
November 27, 2010, 06:57 PM
krochus - good post, this has been a good dialog.
Thank you! it is indeed. I just got back from the range and in the intervening time this thread has literally exploded with useful sticky worthy information. I'm gonna take the next hour or so trying to digest it and how it might apply to my reloading equipment purchases for my new 308 savage bench gun.


ETA here's a great thread on advanced case prep that discusses doughnuts with lots of pics and illustrations

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11923&whichpage=2

R.W.Dale
January 3, 2011, 08:22 PM
I'm bumping this thread again as I'm now striving to apply the lessons learned to a midwayusa neck die order for the Lapua cases also in my cart.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=668734?cm_cat=Cart&cm_pla=ProductDesc

and the appropriate TiN bushing?

243winxb
January 3, 2011, 10:13 PM
My guess is Lapua brass in a 308 win will need a .336" bushing. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=888336 http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/888/888336.jpg

Big338
January 3, 2011, 10:27 PM
I'm using .335 bushing for 308 Lapua brass that has been turned. Using a Redding bushing die to neck only. Very nice rounds with minimal neck tension.

taliv
January 3, 2011, 10:31 PM
great thread

loading for my 260AI, i have started from both lapua and winchester 243win brass. I necked both up to 260 (obviously) but only neck-turned the lapua brass. I got donuts with the lapua brass but not the winchester brass.

a combination of inconsistent neck tension and primers falling out of loaded cases caused me to discard all the lapua brass within 3 firings.


for the original post, i use a redding FL bushing die and size half the neck with a bushing that is .001 smaller than the loaded round. so far, it has provided plenty of tension for me. afaik, the less tension the better, as long as you've got enough that the bullet doesn't stay in the lands and dump powder in your action when you have to extract a live round.

Big338
January 3, 2011, 10:49 PM
Taliv,

I took 243 Lapua brass and necked up to 6.5 for my 260AI. As soon as I necked up, the donut started to form. I just expanded with the sinclair expander die and then FL sized with redding 260 AI die. Once fireformed, the donut was clearly visible. The trick was to take the fireformed brass and ream out the inside of the necks to totally remove the donut. Then I just neck sized using .291 bushing and turned the necks. This is the nicest brass possible for my 260 AI.

taliv
January 3, 2011, 11:07 PM
i was planning to order an inside reamer until the primers started falling out.

R.W.Dale
January 3, 2011, 11:24 PM
What I ended up doing is I ordered the redding FL bushing die and two steel bushings instead of one TiN (I'll upgrade later)

Fired Brass comes out of my chamber @ .345" so I ordered a .340" bushing and a .335" for final sizing. This way I can bring the case necks back down to size in two .005" steps

Since I didn't have any cases here I figured it'd be best to err on the side of too much neck tension and still be able to load ammo.

As of yet I don't have the equipment to neck turn, however I plan to rectify that in the next midway spending spree.

For those of you who size the necks in multiple bushing steps what is the procedure? I figure I'll be able to pull 3 or 4 firings by using the die to neck size only appx 80% of the neck which won't pose a problem. But once it comes time to FL resize how do you work that?


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

243winxb
January 4, 2011, 06:30 AM
But once it comes time to FL resize how do you work that?

The die you ordered full length resizes the body of the brass every time you load. The bushing sizes the neck area, every time you load. You are full length resizing in 1 operation but controling how much you size the neck. No expander will be needed most of the time. I have not needed to use 2 bushings to size down in steps.

kelbro
January 4, 2011, 07:32 AM
I use the 337 for Lapua brass and 333 for Winchester brass.

USSR
January 4, 2011, 07:35 AM
Fired Brass comes out of my chamber @ .345" so I ordered a .340" bushing and a .335" for final sizing. This way I can bring the case necks back down to size in two .005" steps

Good move. If you don't use the intermediate size bushing and just try to go from .345" to .335", your necks will come out at .334". BTDT, and got the T shirt.;)

Don

R.W.Dale
January 4, 2011, 07:53 AM
The die you ordered full length resizes the body of the brass every time you load. The bushing sizes the neck area, every time you load. You are full length resizing in 1 operation but controling how much you size the neck. No expander will be needed most of the time. I have not needed to use 2 bushings to size down in steps.

I'm aware of that, what I'm more interested in knowing is to size the neck in two steps when the time comes to FL resize are you pretty much stuck sizing the entire case twice?

Not that doing so would be nearly as dramatic as a die that uses an expander ball


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

243winxb
January 4, 2011, 08:33 AM
You will have to size the entire case twice.

USSR
January 4, 2011, 09:37 AM
I'm aware of that, what I'm more interested in knowing is to size the neck in two steps when the time comes to FL resize are you pretty much stuck sizing the entire case twice?

Not that doing so would be nearly as dramatic as a die that uses an expander ball

The 2nd time FL resizing with the .335" bushing in will only resize the neck further down. It will not do any further sizing of the body. Without an expander ball, resizing a 2nd time is not an issue as far as working the brass goes.

Don

R.W.Dale
January 4, 2011, 01:10 PM
The 2nd time FL resizing with the .335" bushing in will only resize the neck further down. It will not do any further sizing of the body. Without an expander ball, resizing a 2nd time is not an issue as far as working the brass goes.

Don
Thank you for confirming.


Now we've come full circle and are gonna be back at "Just how much to size"?

For starters I'll just use the die as a neck size only proposition with it backed off the shellholder slightly until I can swing a set of gauges that will allow me to make exact headspace measurements.

Question: When FL resizing can you adjust the bushing up so only a portion of the neck is resized? I haven't been able to find anything clear on that.


ETA Found the info I seeketh thanks to 243winxb


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=536198

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Redding_1.jpg

P51D
January 4, 2011, 01:16 PM
I neck size .243 Win and .22 Hornet cases (I only have one rifle in each caliber). I'm using Lee Collet Dies. The .243 seems to like moderate powder charge weights for accuracy, so I'm getting pretty good case life. With neck sizing only, will I eventually have to Full Length Size them?

How does one adjust a FLS die to "just bump the shoulder back"?

Any special issues with neck sizing only with the Hornet, and its lack of a well defined shoulder? Partial neck sizing seem to be working great with this cartridge.

THANKS

P51D

1858
January 4, 2011, 01:37 PM
Now we've come full circle and are gonna be back at "Just how much to size"?

My 400 or so .308 Win Lapua cases (without any neck turning) measure 0.339" at the neck (O.D.) with a 178gr A-MAX bullet seated. I was using a 0.338" bushing for quite a while but struggled with inconsistent neck tension. The 0.338" bushing only reduces the neck by 0.0005" smaller than the bullet radius all the way around. If your brass has a wall thickness that varies by more than 0.0005", which it will if it's not neck turned, you'll get inconsistent neck tension. Until I get around to turning the necks, I'm using a 0.336" bushing to resize the neck, followed by a R.W.Hart expander (part of the neck turning kit) to open the necks up to the same I.D. I then check the necks with the R.W. Hart mandrel. I'm getting much better results on target but I'd rather have uniform necks from turning and simply go back to neck sizing with a 0.338" or 0.337" bushing.

As for FL sizing ... I don't use a FL sizing die at all. I bump the shoulders back with the Redding body die. Also, the Competition Shellholders from Redding are well worth the cost.

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