How risky is .5 grain over maximum charge (.45 Colt+Unique)


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MacTech
November 26, 2010, 11:12 PM
I've been working up some loads for my H&R Buffalo Classic Carbine .45 Colt single shot rifle, the rifle is (supposedly) capable of handling the Ruger/TC only "Nuclear" loads, I don't plan to go to that extreme, but I do want a tad more "zing" than the standard .45 Colt loads....

The BCC has a 20" barrel, and is based on the SB2 receiver, which is capable of handling cartridges up to the .454 Casull, .460, and .500, some BCC owners have even reamed out the chamber on their rifles to .454 Casull or .460, the gun is rather stoutly constructed

I had previously shot some of the "Max" loads on the Alliant website, 9.5 grains of Unique under a 200Gn LSWC, the gun shot well with those loads, but a hair low at 50 yards, even with the sight elevator all the way to the bottom

I decided to take a little risk, and bump up the charge to an even 10 grains, that's .5 grains over the Alliant published maximum....

According to Handloads dot com, I can load a "+P" pressure level load using 13 grains of Unique, yeilding a pressure of 29,000 CUP and a velocity of 1,349 FPS

It generally looks like every full grain of Unique yields about 100 FPS more or less, so these loads should be hovering around 1,000 FPS-ish, not sure on the pressure though

How sensitive to overcharging is Unique, I've read somewhere that heavy loads of Unique can get somewhat "spiky" and unpredictable

I don't want a load that's going to beat the gun apart, blow up on me, or accelerate the wear and tear on the gun, but I do want a little more punch than the conservative "factory" loads are giving me

So, are these loads within the safe range for Ruger Only type loads, or am I better off dumping the charges and dropping back to the "max" load of 9.5Gr as specified on the Alliant website?

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zxcvbob
November 26, 2010, 11:20 PM
10 grains of Unique with a 250 or 255 grain cast bullet is a pretty well established hot load for post-war SAA revolvers. I assume your rifle has a stronger action than a medium-framed single-action revolver.

Your load probably runs about 16000 PSI. I'd shoot it; you'll have to make up your mind yourself.

teddy52food
November 26, 2010, 11:23 PM
If it is shooting low, move the rear sight up.

MacTech
November 26, 2010, 11:39 PM
Already adjusted the sight up, that wasn't the reason I wanted to bump up the charge though, I just figured a hotter load should shoot a little higher (less bullet drop?)

Since this gun's receiver is the same receiver used on the high-pressure cartridges like the .30-06, .308, and the .2xx wildcats, not to mention the .500, I'm assuming the pressures in a "Ruger Only" .45 Colt load are nothing to worry about in terms of accelerated wear-and-tear on the gun

Jim Watson
November 26, 2010, 11:46 PM
Not an unreasonable load in my book.

But it is not going to shift your POI by much. And barrel vibrations might move it in the opposite direction to what you want or expect. Only way to know is to shoot some at a target.

jerkface11
November 27, 2010, 12:13 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. The gun can take it. You should see the loads I shoot out of my Savage bolt action .45 winmag.

cpaspr
November 27, 2010, 12:31 AM
As stated above, you should be fine.

However, you should keep these "hot" loads separate, and not shoot them, or allow any friends to shoot them, from non-Ruger handguns.

MacTech
November 27, 2010, 12:34 AM
That's not a problem either, my only centerfire revolver is a Ruger NM Blackhawk .45 Convertible (7.5" barrel), no other handgun I own could chamber these rounds, and the only rifle I have that can chamber these rounds is the H&R Buffalo Classic Carbine, I don't let anyone else shoot my handloads in their guns either

CraigC
November 27, 2010, 01:38 AM
The rifle can take "Ruger only" loads and more. However, if you increase velocity with a given bullet weight, it will actually print lower, not higher. If you want it to print higher, go wtih a standard weight cast bullet, rather than those flying ashtray 200 grainers.

justgoto
November 27, 2010, 03:31 AM
if you increase velocity with a given bullet weight, it will actually print lower, not higher.

I have scores of ladder test targets that fly in the face of that statement.

As mentioned above, barrel harmonics plays a part, but on the average; the quicker the bullet gets to the target, the less it has time to drop, therefore the higher it will print.

I decided to take a little risk, and bump up the charge to an even 10 grains, that's .5 grains over the Alliant published maximum..
I would still work-up to that charge weight slowly, looking for overpressure signs. That is how we KNOW when to stop with our specific guns.

There is risky, then there is dangerous.

Sport45
November 27, 2010, 04:40 AM
I'd try a heavier bullet too.

In teddy52food's defense, you said the gun was shooting low with the sight elevator at the bottom. That does sound like all you have to do is raise the sight.

I have scores of ladder test targets that fly in the face of that statement.

I agree with CraigC about the slower bullet printing higher. This is at 50 yards with a pistol-caliber carbine. A slower bullet will spend more time in the barrel and exit with the barrel at a higher point in the recoil pulse. Bullets at rifle velocities and longer ranges act different.

1858
November 27, 2010, 04:52 AM
As mentioned above, barrel harmonics plays a part, but on the average; the quicker the bullet gets to the target, the less it has time to drop, therefore the higher it will print.

The issue here is a little more complicated. If you're talking about "long" range rifle shooting then higher velocity means less bullet drop. However, when talking about pistol cartridges with much slower velocities, the time the bullet spends in the barrel can have a significant effect on where the bullet hits the target. With handguns, bullet drop at "typical" target distances isn't an issue. The issue is that faster bullets leave the barrel sooner and therefore are less affected by recoil (vertical direction) and impact lower on the target. It gets complicated in this instance for two reasons. First, this a .45 Colt and a 50 yard zero. Second, this is a pistol cartridge being fired from a rifle with a 20" barrel. My 20" Marlin 1894 shooting HOT .45 Colt loads doesn't have much in the way of recoil and considerably less than any of my six revolvers chambered for the same cartridge. It's not clear to me if the faster/lower "rule" applies here.

1858
November 27, 2010, 04:59 AM
I'd try a heavier bullet too.

I've had very good results with a 250gr LRNFP from Oregon Trail and H110 powder. This is a fairly HOT load but definitely safe in a Marlin.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/marlin/1894/45_colt/targets/45colt_chrono.jpg

justgoto
November 27, 2010, 05:46 AM
This is at 50 yards with a pistol-caliber carbine. A slower bullet will spend more time in the barrel and exit with the barrel at a higher point in the recoil pulse.

I've seen that claim all over the net, linked to every firearm imaginable. Here is the wives tale pertaining to a 4" barrel. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=107220).. I can find the take on other sites relating to high power rifle velocities but not here, I would think there is a few though.

Why have I never seen these results in any of the rifles or handguns I reload for?

Think about it. Shouldn't he then be able to make a load that hits 10' high at 100 yards? I mean his muzzle jumps high enough to print them that high. A reduced load of say 200fps should get him to the top of the recoil. His bullet is traveling at, "1,000 FPS-ish" The recoil jump, travels at what, 10MPH? Heck, I think my handgun should be able to print 30' higher!

The bullet is long gone, otherwise a moderate deviation in muzzle velocity would effect the POI enough to make short to medium range shooting wildly inaccurate for all handguns and moderate velocity rifles; and that is just not the case.

justgoto
November 27, 2010, 06:34 AM
The issue is that faster bullets leave the barrel sooner and therefore are less affected by recoil (vertical direction) and impact lower on the target

Take my 22" 30-06 shooting 220gr SP at 2300fps.
Then my 357 8" barrel shooting a 158gr HP-XTP at 1150.

If the 357's barrel was 11 inches the bullets would exit the barrel at the same time. But seeing the 357 is just 8 inches, the bullet exits the barrel sooner.

Why am I to believe this effect would translate into a 4" barrel also?

As explained so far, the theory has no merit.

Skip_a_roo
November 27, 2010, 08:36 AM
Pressure is what will beat a gun to pieces. If you want a load that gives more zip than the normal Unique load, don't use Unique. I have a load for my M25 -7 using Unique under a 240gr LSWC that I cast, 9.0gr. For my Ruger 45 Convertible, I have a 270gr load that I use H110/W296 for. I also shoot it in my Puma lever gun.

From the Puma I am getting 1800fps with the Linebaugh load, over 1400fps from the Ruger, it has a 5 1/2" barrel by the way.

If it was me and I was trying to get the results you seem to be after, I would use AA#7, HS-6 or something in that area of the burn rate chart.

LoadData.com has some loads for 3 different levels of 45 Colt. 14,000psi, 20,000psi and 30,000psi. You may want to check out that site.

Hope this helps.

Also, there is a web release article from Handloader Magazine #246. It uses a different bullet than you are asking about but the information may be of use. Here is a link to that free article from them: http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf Look up the one about the 270-SAA bullet.

243winxb
November 27, 2010, 10:47 AM
How sensitive to overcharging is Unique, I've read somewhere that heavy loads of Unique can get somewhat "spiky" and unpredictable

Unique does not seem to be "spiky" for me. But ww296 has been in 44mag.

GaryL
November 27, 2010, 12:15 PM
MacTech, you need a Lyman's 49th Ed reloading manual. They have load data specifically for 45 colt rifle. They also have a section with loads specific to T/C Contender & Encore, that includes 45 Colt. I didn't see any 200gr L, but there are plenty of others to work with, and you can get an idea of where you might get into trouble with a given load.

CraigC
November 27, 2010, 12:15 PM
Why have I never seen these results in any of the rifles or handguns I reload for?
Can't answer that. It is a general rule of thumb but there are lots of variables and there are always exceptions. There is no guarantee that you won't be the exception. Being a general rule, feel free to experiment and see what works for you. If it doesn't, move on. No need to get into a long, drawn-out argument about it. Folks who know a hell of a lot more about shooting than I have repeated this rule of thumb and I have seen it for myself but I do not wish to spend the day arguing about it.

jerkface11
November 27, 2010, 01:16 PM
I forgot to ask. If you want a hot load why use unique?

rcmodel
November 27, 2010, 01:34 PM
That was gonna be my question too.

2400, H110, or W296 all will give higher velocity at less pressure.

rc

CraigC
November 27, 2010, 01:44 PM
True, you'll get maximum velocities out of slower powders but that doesn't sound like what the OP is looking for. If you can get what you want out of Unique, why not? You'll use less powder and if the rest of your loads are low to midrange, it's one less powder to use. It's not as if a 200gr cast bullet over 10.0gr Unique is a particularly heavy load. I use Unique for mid-range loads almost exclusively. Why? Because with a 240gr SWC in .44Mag, I can achieve 1150fps in sixguns and 1450fps in rifles and that load does everything I need it to do and uses half as much powder as a comparable load using 2400.

MacTech
November 27, 2010, 02:24 PM
As for why Unique? well, lets just say I wanted to try a different powder, I've used 231 and Trail Boss with my .45 Colt loads and have been happy with the performance so far, 231 is a nice clean shooting powder with good accuracy, but I don't like how little it fills the case, Trail Boss is a great powder for some soft shooting plinking loads, and I love how it fills the case.

I was looking mainly for a powder in between the two, with the "zip" of 231, and the case-filling volume of TB, and Unique seems to do that nicely, a nice zippy load compared to TB, and it fills the case better than 231, a good middle of the road powder

the 10 Gr loads were more of a "what if" or "I wonder if this will work", the first thing I did was look for the maximum +P loads and downgrade from there (the 13 Gr +P loads on Handloads dot com, for example as the "VNE" (Velocity-Never-Exceed, a piloting term from my armchair pilot days...) point for .45 Colt)

I don't plan on going any higher than 10 grains with Unique and will more than likely drop back to 9.5 grains anyway, I just wanted to see if the gun likes the half grain increase

I don't want to beat this gun to it's premature death, as the BCC is an awesome little rifle, the perfect short-range hunting rifle for the thick New England woods, an awesome little plinker (max. 231 loads feel like a .22 Mag), and I'd imagine a pretty decent HD/farm gun for out in the countryside (where I thankfully live, no close by neighbors, and a practically non-existent crime rate, in my 40+ years here, we have *never* had to deal with any "two legged predators", thank Og...)

1858
November 27, 2010, 03:28 PM
The bullet is long gone, otherwise a moderate deviation in muzzle velocity would effect the POI enough to make short to medium range shooting wildly inaccurate for all handguns and moderate velocity rifles; and that is just not the case.

If the bullet is "long gone" and has no effect on the POI due to recoil, why is it that EVERY handgun I've ever owned has a taller front sight compared to the rear sight? When aiming at the target, the barrel is pointing below the target. This compensates for the muzzle recoiling UP as the bullet moves down the barrel so that when the bullet exits the barrel, the barrel is pointing at the target. It stands to reason that POA/POI is a function of recoil and bullet velocity. As CraigC stated, this isn't necessarily a universal rule but I have experienced it for myself with a 3" GP100 chambered in .357 Mag.


Take my 22" 30-06 shooting 220gr SP at 2300fps.
Then my 357 8" barrel shooting a 158gr HP-XTP at 1150.

If the 357's barrel was 11 inches the bullets would exit the barrel at the same time. But seeing the 357 is just 8 inches, the bullet exits the barrel sooner.

Why am I to believe this effect would translate into a 4" barrel also?

As explained so far, the theory has no merit.

Why are you even mentioning a rifle cartridge since this is a pistol cartridge and handgun phenomena. Also, in your world, a 220gr .30-06 bullet with a MV of 2300 fps will have the same barrel time as a 158gr .357 bullet with a MV of 1150 assuming a 22" and 11" barrel respectively. Not likely given the different burn rates of the powder and primer and the completely different pressure curves.

MacTech
November 27, 2010, 06:43 PM
Just got back from the range with my 10 grain Unique loads....

that was rather..... anticlimactic...

Aside from a slightly stronger recoil (about that of a .223/5.56), they shot about the same, actually printed a tad lower, I had better performance with the 9.5'ers, they were more consistent

I also loaded up some of my "Pet" Trailboss loads (7.0 Gn under a 200Gn LSWC) and had the best accuracy with them, aside from being a tad sootier, the TB loads were the most accurate of the bunch, and recoil?, what recoil?, TB loads felt like shooting a .22LR

I forgot how much I like TB loads, soft shooting, accurate, and no recoil to speak of

I also tried the 10 Gn Unique loads in my NM Blackhawk, and was surprised by their stout recoil, as well as dissapointed as to how far left they printed at 50Y

Overall, I can safely say that I'm not happy with the 10 Gn Unique loads, going back to the 9.5, maybe try some .1 or .2 grain at a time workups to find the sweet spot

I'm also going to work up some midrange loads for the Speer Deepcurl 250Gn HP rounds, as the HP bullet failed to open with the 7.5 Gn "max" load on the Alliant website, a little more velocity would be good for this load

USSR
November 27, 2010, 07:23 PM
MacTech,

You really need to move up to slower burning powders. I would suggest 2400, H110, or IMR4227 to take advantage of your long barrel and get the velocity it is capable of.

Don

justgoto
November 28, 2010, 12:40 AM
Can't answer that... Folks who know a hell of a lot more about shooting than I have repeated this rule of thumb and I have seen it for myself but I do not wish to spend the day arguing about it.
In the future, expect to be challenged when parroting wild theories you don't understand.

why is it that EVERY handgun I've ever owned has a taller front sight compared to the rear sight
Because your firearms are defective? Maybe you don't know how to use a measuring device? From my derringer to my 8" 357, not one of my handguns suffer from that affliction.


Why are you even mentioning a rifle cartridge since this is a pistol cartridge and handgun phenomena.
Read the "quoted" section I was addressing. Here is some help. "In [my] world," "pistol cartridge[s] and handgun[s]" are bound by the same laws of physics as "rifle cartridge[s]."

Not likely given the different burn rates of the powder and primer and the completely different pressure curves.
Thank you for driving home my main point so pointedly! The pressure curve in a 30-06 with 220gr bullets is such that the bullet leaves the barrel much, much later. I didn't think either of you two were going to swallow the hook.

As CraigC stated, this isn't necessarily a universal rule
So "in your world," the laws of physics don't apply evenly. Oh yeah, we've covered that already.

Why is it that neither of you tried to address one point I've made, (without being tricked into it,) or tried to further your theory? (That is rhetorical.)

Sport45
November 28, 2010, 05:40 AM
It may have just been my shooting skills at the time, but my 7.5" SBH in .44mag shot .44 special much higher that it shot magnum rounds. Enough so that I sold the thing and bought a .45 Colt instead.

(Maybe it was an unconscious effort to get a new gun :))

1858
November 28, 2010, 05:58 AM
Because your firearms are defective? Maybe you don't know how to use a measuring device? From my derringer to my 8" 357, not one of my handguns suffer from that affliction.

Here are three of my revolvers clearly showing that the front sights are taller than the rear sights. I can post photos of the 20+ handguns that I own and the story will still be the same. And yes, I do know how to use a tape measure, and a caliper and a micrometer.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/blackhawk/three_rugers.jpg

1858
November 28, 2010, 06:02 AM
Here are my GP100s ... yep, same story. The front sight is taller. So that's five revolvers all with front sights taller than the rear sights. Shall I continue?

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/gp100/photos/gp100_4in_3in_2.jpg

1858
November 28, 2010, 06:03 AM
Here are my two USFA revolvers ... yep, same again ... front sights are taller!!

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/usfa/photos/usfa_rodeos.jpg

1858
November 28, 2010, 06:05 AM
Even my S&W 629 uses a taller front sight ...

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/s&w/photos/S&W_629.jpg

1858
November 28, 2010, 06:06 AM
Well, that's eight revolvers all with taller front sights than rear sights ... now I'm bored ... but what was your response to my observation that all of my handguns have taller front sights compared to the rear sights ....

why is it that EVERY handgun I've ever owned has a taller front sight compared to the rear sight


Because your firearms are defective? Maybe you don't know how to use a measuring device? From my derringer to my 8" 357, not one of my handguns suffer from that affliction.

justgoto
November 28, 2010, 06:30 AM
Well, that's eight revolvers all with taller front sights than rear sights ... now I'm bored

That you actually think that is the case, is astounding!

You'll need help for this... Try measuring the height of the sight to the bore axis, not the frame.

For your next trick, (since you still haven't addressed any of my numerous points,) tell me how the people designing the sights know your load is reduced and therefore shooting high? fixed

now I'm bored
I would expect that from someone that has NOTHING to validate this theory.

Skip_a_roo
November 28, 2010, 09:05 AM
I have shot handguns for years and years but just recently started reloading for the 45 Colt. I have 3 firearms chambered for it and enjoy everyone of them. The first one I bought was a Ruger 45 Convertible (45ACP & 45 Colt) the next a Puma rifle and the third a M25 -7.

I have several bullets I cast for 45ACP and one especially for the 45AR for use in my M625JM. That bullet is an H&G #502, 240gr LSWC of the Keith design. Now I have a Mihec mould that is a copy of the RCBS 45-270-SAA that weighs in at 285gr as a solid and 270gr with the round hollow point pins.

When the latter bullet was shot from the Ruger, loaded to Brian Pearce's data for 30,000psi loads, I could adjust the sights for it to hit POA/POI. The rear site had to be moved down. That means that the bullet was hitting higher. Now, that bullet was traveling somewhere near the 1300fps mark. The previous loads that I ran from this firearm was the above mentioned 240gr bullet with a similar velocity, maybe a little faster, 1400fps.

Then I got the Smith. Now, I believe that it will take the above mentioned loads BUT am just a chicken to try at this time. It is a super nice gun and I don't want to ruin it before I even get started, so to speak. At any rate, I started off with a load of 9.0gr of Unique, well within published data, under the 240gr H&G and found that even at 25 yards that it was printing about 6" high! Velocity was near 950fps, as I recall. As I tried to adjust the sights to compensate for this, I ran out of adjustment room. Printing high means that the rear sight has to move down to get POA to equal POI.

I "adjusted" the rear sight with a file to lower its overall height and then deepened the groove in it to allow me to see the full front sight then re-blued it. Now it hits where I aim it with the 950fps 240gr load as I mentioned above. I do not need to shoot it to know two things.

#1: If I were to take my 45-270-SAA bullet and load it to the same velocity, it will print higher on the target, period.

#2: If I were to take my H&G #68, 200gr LSWC and load it to the same velocity it will print lower on the target, period.

Both statements assume two things.

#1: Point of aim is the same.
#2: The distance to the target is the same.

Barrel dwell time is a big factor in shooting handguns, no doubt about that. While I haven't spent a lot of time doing ladder test targets, I have proven the above statements over and over and over again, in more than just this one caliber.

What happens when you hot rod the 270gr bullet to "infinity and beyond"? Where will it print on the target? There are two many factors to put into this equation to say too much for certain BUT, I can tell you where it will hit if I am shooting it, higher. Take the 200gr and do likewise, load it to "infinity and beyond" and it will still print lower than the 270gr at slower typical velocities.

Why? You can figure that one out, I really don't need to KNOW the why of it. If I want to be the reloader/handloader/shooter that I want to be, I sure had better know that this is how it works in real life!

Otherwise, I am going to have to spout INTERNET theories and "ought to be's". ;)

CraigC
November 28, 2010, 11:41 AM
In the future, expect to be challenged when parroting wild theories you don't understand.
Try throttling back on the attitude buddy, I didn't just all off the turnip truck yesterday.

Nobody on this end is "parroting wild theories" and I understand, fully. I am repeating conventional wisdom that I have PROVEN for myself on the range with a multitude of firearms. If your experience has been different, that's fine, it's even to be expected. Just keep in mind that your contrary experience does NOT prove the general rule of thumb to be myth.

No, it is not a hard and fast rule and no, simple physics do not fully encompass every minute detail. As 1858 mentioned, recoil is a contributing factor and every single human body that fires a rifle or handgun is different and therefore, they all react differently to recoil. Also as suggested, since recoil is a factor, it 'may' react differently with such a moderate load in a full-sized rifle. Which is why it's a general rule of thumb, not one of the ten commandments.

Lighten up.

jerkface11
November 28, 2010, 01:50 PM
justgoto needs to shoot some .44 special and some red hot .44 magnum out of the same gun. Then tell us which one prints higher on the target.

1858
November 28, 2010, 04:04 PM
I said ...

Well, that's eight revolvers all with taller front sights than rear sights

justgoto said ...

That you actually think that is the case, is astounding! You'll need help for this... Try measuring the height of the sight to the bore axis, not the frame.

What's astounding is your ARROGANT attitude. Here's a photo of one of the Blackhawks shown earlier with the top of the front and rear sights level with the table. Which direction is the BARREL pointing in relative to the table? In your world, the barrel and the table should be parallel. In the REAL world .... they're NOT. Anyone with half a brain can clearly see that the sights and barrel are NOT parallel, and that the centerline of the barrel and the horizontal plane of the table diverge. Once again, I can post images until the cows come home showing that the barrels on ALL of my handguns point lower than the sights BY DESIGN!!!!

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/blackhawk/photos/blackhawk_upside_down.jpg

Skip_a_roo
November 28, 2010, 04:49 PM
I think a good read would be the Brian Pearce article found in this preview version of Handloader. Pearce runs the new model Vaquero through it's paces and has some interesting observations on page 44 (column all the way to the right) and 45 (column all the way to the left).

Very interesting read for this thread hijacking discussion! ;)

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL_234_preview.pdf

KodiakBeer
November 28, 2010, 05:24 PM
Here's a photo of one of the Blackhawks shown earlier with the top of the front and rear sights level with the table.

If he can't grasp that excellent graphic demonstration, then you'll just have to give up!

I'm amazed that somebody who reloads doesn't understand such basic firearms knowledge.

PT1911
November 28, 2010, 05:47 PM
Justgoto, 1858 is correct about the difference in height in the front and rear sights. If one were to put a laser bore sighter in the chamber of a revolver and then line up the sights naturally, they would find the laser to be much lower than the sights. Why? the design of the gun takes barrel lift into account.

zxcvbob
November 28, 2010, 05:53 PM
You'll need help for this... Try measuring the height of the sight to the bore axis, not the frame.

For your next trick, (since you still haven't addressed any of my numerous points,) tell me how the people designing the sights know your load is reduced and therefore shooting high?

The bullet weight is by far the most important variable, and the sights will be regulated to a common (probably heavy) bullet weight. A "target" load and a "magnum" load with the same weight will impact pretty much the same place at reasonable distances -- until you get far enough out that bullet drop becomes significant.

justgoto
November 29, 2010, 12:56 AM
What's astounding is your ARROGANT attitude.
You mean by throwing your own words back in your face, like "in your world"?

No, your attitude got the best of your argument long ago. You have abandoned your argument completely for picture shows with [single] upside-down weapons, (apparently, your 'measuring devise' is broken,) sporting ADJUSTABLE sights that we have no idea where it hits and why. I can only assume we have embarked on the dishonest route.

Otherwise, I am going to have to spout INTERNET theories and "ought to be's".
I can see how you people get so confused, nothing you are doing is based in scientific method. Especially the pictures, and "I ran out of adjustment room." How embarrassing it must be for you... Should be.

I deal with misunderstanding of data and blatant disregard for common sense on a weekly basis. I always end up wasting time and ammo proving my point beyond a doubt; when I do I am always countered with, "simple physics do not fully encompass every minute detail." Absurd!

When I produce a theory nullifying conundrum, the tune changes to "isn't necessarily a universal rule."

I am repeating conventional wisdom
No, it isn't. No matter how many times you keep "repeating" that, it will not make the wild theory scientific fact.

If he can't grasp that excellent graphic demonstration,
Let's hope that is sarcasm...

Anyone of you flat-earthers want to try addressing an actual point instead of circle-jerking? No?
I'll leave you with the only thing I think you'll understand. PWNED! It's the internet, complete with blatant disregard for scientific method, physics, and common sense... but with pictures!

CraigC
November 29, 2010, 01:39 AM
Wow! If you are so smart and we are so dumb, then maybe you can explain how 'our' experience confirms what you call "theory"??? Tell me exactly why, in a .44Mag, that a 240gr at 1400fps prints lower than the same bullet at 700fps. Tell me why a 355gr at 1200fps prints higher than a 240gr at the same velocity.

justgoto
November 29, 2010, 04:38 AM
Attention flat-earthers, the argument has been moved to here. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=557592)

1858
November 29, 2010, 04:59 AM
You have abandoned your argument completely for picture shows with [single] upside-down weapons, (apparently, your 'measuring devise' is broken,) sporting ADJUSTABLE sights that we have no idea where it hits and why. I can only assume we have embarked on the dishonest route.

Yep, that's it ... I'm being dishonest. Here's a photo of a GP100 with fixed sights. I even show a closeup where once again, the barrel and the table top clearly aren't parallel. But wait, maybe I machined some steel off the rear sight to make a point. :rolleyes:

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/gp100/photos/gp100_upside_down.jpg

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/revolvers/gp100/photos/gp100_upside_down_2.jpg

1858
November 29, 2010, 05:22 AM
For those in the audience capable of following along, basically everyone except justgoto, the GP100 shown above has a sight radius of approximately 4.8". As an example of how a small change to the height of the front sight has a large effect on the target, if the revolver shown above were shooting 6" high at 15 yards, I would only need to add 0.053" to the height of the front sight to move the POI down 6".

Skip_a_roo
November 29, 2010, 06:24 AM
My friend once told me: "Never argue with an idiot, someone standing nearby won't be able to tell which one is which!"

Now, I'm not calling anyone names, I'm just saying I'm done. I hate looking like an idiot! :)

p.s. I have spoken with John Linebaugh about the M25 and shooting his loads out of it. One of the first things he said about it was that the front sight wasn't tall enough. I guess I am in that group. I think that is a good group to be in! Since I'm not a gun smith, I fixed the problem the best way I could.

Sam1911
November 29, 2010, 06:33 AM
No reason to get so worked up about some of these things.

This is THR.org -- we're supposed to be comporting ourselves like gentlemen.

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