[mopar92]

I walked in a little late, but these guys were talking about legal things... Basically, they wondered what it would take to by law, be able to modify their own guns to become machine guns... I thought it was interesting, so I googled around. I think it's a real big deal from what I have read. Others say, just get a license, tax stamp, and move on. The conversation started with the Akins Accelerator. Then morphed in to The John ? Norrell? full auto 10-22. So, what exactly would it take for a man to legally build a 10-22 fully automatic NOT FOR SALE... for private use only? Interesting subject to me..:confused:

[mesinge2]

For those who don't know, Akins Accelerator:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9P8AbTKvykE

[mopar92]

I don't think posessing a class III would be enough to build it for in house purposes only...

[rozziboy18]

i know that here in tn you have to have a class 3 manufacturers license

[Justin]

Unless you built the gun prior to the legal cutoff of 1986, it is completely illegal for a civilian to modify a gun to fire fully automatically.

The only people who can legally do this are people with specially acquired federal firearms licenses which allow them to manufacture full-auto firearms that can then only be transferred to another full-auto manufacturer, or a legally-allowed entity such as a police department or security firm.

[mopar92]

I am in TN.... this has peaked my interest now... I just want to learn about it... BATFE's website I couldnt find anything like that on there...

[GoingQuiet]

The "class 3" is the class of tax stamp you need to be a dealer in firearms.

To be a manufacturer of title 2 firearms, you have to be a second class citizen.

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Would that stock for the 10/22 be legal or considered a machine gun. It is bumpfiring technically with no modification to the gun or trigger. It just makes the trigger bounce against your finger.

[mopar92]

IN plain English? Does one need to have a standard FFL first, then get a Class III manf. stamp? I am a pilot, so would it be like a tailwheel endorsment? Thanks.

[mopar92]

ATF said it was illegal... which in my opinion is mixed. Part of me says it's a device that DOES allow one pull of the trigger to fire multiple rounds... that is TRUE. The other parts says that you better make a belt loop illegal, because thats how I have bumpfired my AR when I was younger and into that crap. Oh, also, the thumb should be illegal too. Lets keep it on topic though. I want to know what steps I would need to take to be legally making my own full auto, not for sale or trade! It's got me thinking...

[GoingQuiet]

When people say "Class 3" they are typically (incorrectly I might add) referring to anything title 2 - machineguns, sbr/sbs/silencers.

The term "class 3" is defined as the type of special taxpayer you are. In this case, class 3 would be dealer. Since you are a pilot - class 3 would be akin to multi engine. You might have a pilots license, but you might not have multi.

If you are an FFL DEALER and you want to get into doing NFA sales - you get your class 3 SOT. If you are an FFL MANUFACTURER and you want to get into doing NFA sales and builds - you get your class 2 SOT.

Hope this helps.

[mopar92]

That dumbed it down a bit for me... These guys are nuts. From what I have read on the internet, it seems as if it will take $5000 a year? Is that right?

[Justin]

NFA Title II manufacturer's licenses don't come cheap.

Also, the BATFE will shut you down if your intention in getting the license is so you can have machine guns for personal, rather than business, uses.

[mopar92]

"Also, the BATFE will shut you down if your intention in getting the license is so you can have machine guns for personal, rather than business, uses. "

Thats the second thing I asked the guy.... I said they are too smart for you to try to beat the system!

[DoubleTapDrew]

You've gotta be in the business. If it was easy, post '86 machineguns wouldn't be so frustratingly cheap.

[dirtymike1]

In short, no you cannot make a semi-auto into a full auto. You would have to become a manufacturer of Class III weapons. There are no forms that you or I can fill out to be legally allowed to create a full auto.

[Sam1911]

There's a sticky on this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=507319

Justin hit the highlights for you.

You want to build machine guns and/or convert normal "Title I" semi-autos into full-autos, you first have to have one of the versions of Federal Firearms License that cover being a manufacturer. Then you have to become a "Special Occupational Tax, Class 02" manufacturer of "Title II" NFA-regulated items. You can't do this (either of those things) for your own kicks and giggles -- but must be "in the business of." Any new machine guns you make can only be transferred to government agencies or to other SOTs.

(Class 03 SOTs are dealers in NFA Title II weapons like machine guns, but they don't get carte blanche to keep in inventory whatever machine guns they want. Look into "LEO demonstration letters" for more information.)

...

The Atkins Accelerator is a classic example of the BATFE changing its interpretations of the law mid-stream. The Accelerator stock was really just a fancy way of bump-firing, and the ATF gave their blessing for that design. However, after some were sold, they changed their minds and re-interpreted the design as a Title II item.

[JTH]

I know I'll get some nasty responses but civilians have no real reason to have a machine gun. They'd be a blast to play with but if they were in the wrong hands, what a disaster could occur. As Americans, I know we don't liked to be told what we can and can't do. Just look at that situations in the big border cities of Mexico. I'm sure there are many illegal machine guns out there but if you can't solve you problem with a semiauto pistol or rifle it's too late. Unless it's a .22 machine gun who could afford to shoot the thing. Just my opinion guys!
JT

[Sam1911]

I know I'll get some nasty responses but civilians have no real reason to have a machine gun.I don't think you'll get any "nasty" responses (this is THR!) but a lot of contrary ones.

If you think back to the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment, it speaks more to a citizen's right to bear arms similar to those wielded by a military force than to any right to a hunting or target type weapon. So, from a purely logical standpoint, civilians should have MORE rights to own machine guns than "Title I" firearms.

What might happen "in the wrong hands" doesn't enter into it now, and never has.

[Bubbles]

From what I have read on the internet, it seems as if it will take $5000 a year? Is that right?
The application fee for a Type 07 FFL (firearm manufacturer) is $150. The license is valid for three years.
The SOT is $500.00 per year if your total gross receipts are less than $500,000.00 per year, otherwise the tax is $1000.00 per year.
ITAR registration is $2250.00 per year.
Throw in liability insurance, machines and tooling, raw materials, office equipment, computers and software, and other normal costs of doing business (utilities, rent, legal fees, etc) and it gets spendy real fast.

[therewolf]

I, personally, would not want to draw the attention of the Feds in such a manner. ATF doesn't have much of a sense of humor.

A friend of mine found that out the hard way a few years back.

Besides, just my opinion, but isn't ammo expensive enough at the semi-auto rate of fire,

without going to all the bother and expense of full auto?

I'm already spending a small fortune at the range...

I'll just be happy to get accurate with what I've got, without getting too fancy.

[jmorris]

I know I'll get some nasty responses but civilians have no real reason to have a machine gun. They'd be a blast to play with but if they were in the wrong hands, what a disaster could occur. As Americans, I know we don't liked to be told what we can and can't do. Just look at that situations in the big border cities of Mexico. I'm sure there are many illegal machine guns out there but if you can't solve you problem with a semiauto pistol or rifle it's too late. Unless it's a .22 machine gun who could afford to shoot the thing. Just my opinion guys!
JT

Another opnion with nothing to do with the topic.

An automobile or how about box cutters in the wrong hands have caused more “disasters” than machine guns legally owned by citizens.

Do you have any knowledge of Mexico’s gun laws? We are talking about legal guns here not illegal guns.

It has nothing to do with problem solving, 99.9% of my shooting is for fun.

I can afford to shoot full auto, if you can’t that’s ok but don’t use that as a reason to tell me I shouldn’t have them.


What you should be more concerned with is the “foot in the door” stuff that goes on with arguments like yours. Who NEEDS a machine gun, silencer, short rifle or shotgun, magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, 50 BMG, semi auto, pistol, rifle, shotgun, bow and arrow, sword, knife, rocks? Most people have a spot on the list where they say, whoa that’s too far. I believe simply infringing upon my freedom is too far.

[CoRoMo]

The legality of bump-stocks, like the Atkins Accelerator, will have to be challenged in court. Using a belt loop or a shoe string to bump fire is legally fine... for now, but a stock that is specifically designed to mimic full auto fire, crosses some imaginary line that the ATF conjured up. Oddly though, trigger activators that are specifically designed to produce the same effect are okay. That's the bureau for you.

[K-Rod]

Mopar92,

Most if not all the responses here make a valid point but your question was if I'm right, what would it take to build a full auto 10/22 for personal use & still be legal. I'm assuming you don't want to do it the "Expensive" way. Brother in arms I'm sorry, I don't believe there is a "Cheap" way. Sure there's devices, stocks etc that will give you what your looking for but to be "Legal", the costs are insane & not worth it for a 10/22. Look at it like this, the FFL, paperwork, stamp etc is in the thousands. Unless you have the smithy abilities, a drop in SEAR alone for an AR can be form $10,000-$18,000. These costs are there just to keep average "Good guy" from having the means. Is it right, no. Is full auto fun, HELL YES!!! Is it neccesary? That's a thread I'm sure has been argued to death & I'm not going to be the dumba$$ Newbie to start it again but IMO I don't believe I should be told what I can & can't have regardless.

Example, I may or may not be apart of a group of guys, all good friends & family that enjoys this sport. One day they all get together to go do some shooting in the hills. At some point as I understand the story, they all pull out their AR's, load up, get in a line & proceed to bumpfire(thumb in belt loop). I heard it sounded like, I'm sure you get the point. The next day it was heard that the area was covered with "Black" cars & SUV's for a couple hrs.

My point, unfortunatly we have some BS laws for whatever reason. Stay out of the "Gray" area.

[highorder]

These costs are there just to keep average "Good guy" from having the means.

False.

Finite supply and expanding demand drive prices up. There is no conspiracy to increase NFA costs out of the realm on the average man.

[K-Rod]

I stand corrected but I believe paying all those costs just to be able to run a fully auto 10/22 legally, is not worth it.

[MP-5 Hillbilly]

I have been a FFL/SOT since 1986 out of my home until June 2008 when I opened GunRunnersUSA.com.

Your initial FFL application will cost 200.00 to cover your background, after that you pay 90.00 every 3 years.

As noted above your SOT either C2 or C3 dealer will run 500.00 per year. I decided to stick with C3 dealer just because of the ITAR issue. I can not make any post 86 mg's but can get them with a demo letter from a LE agency, but I have no worries about the ITAR...letters for me are not a problem.

A dealer had a 10/22, m4 and thompson in NH...I bought all 3 just to get dibbs on the 10/22...and it works. John Norrell made a few posties back in the day but he doesn't do that any more. I had about 1k in each of them.

Then a couple of years later a C2 died out in ID. He was a history buff, had a mg 34. bren, Grease gun, russian dp, tommy, vickers, 1919, MP-40, PPsh-41, BAR, Sten, swedish K..I wanted the BAR in the worst way but someone else beat me to it...I ended up buying the rest of the collection on one demo letter.

ATFE is NOT the big bad wolf everyone claims they are...I have heard horror stories but I have NEVER had an issue with them. You must know the rules and play by the rules.

Since the C2 died and he was the only one on the FFL/SOT ATF could have taken the post 86 guns. They let the dealer's Aunt dispose of the firerarms but the only catch was they were tax paid firearms (form 4). I had never seen a post 86 gun transferred on a form 4 until this deal.

Long story short...I bought them all except the BAR, paid 200.00 transfer tax for each one to get them to TN along with the cost of the guns...much cheaper than pre 86 guns. Since that time ATFE has allowed the transfer of post 86 guns no letter required if the C2 or C3 is going out of business.

In reality I can not "keep" any of them, but I pay 500.00 per year to be a C3 dealer so in a weird way I am "renting" them until I retire one day...until then I have PLENTY of post 86 guns to do demo's with and have a little fun in my off time.

I sell about 50+ NFA items a year so this more than covers my SOT.:D

JP in 10-E-C
www.gunrunnersusa.com

[jmorris]

I believe paying all those costs just to be able to run a fully auto 10/22 legally, is not worth it.

It's what you want and how much money you have. I think it's not worth it to own your own airplane but many do.

[IBEWBULL]

In reply to JTH .
The illegal automatic weapons are coming into Mexico via the same route as the drugs. Third world countries are flooding the drug market with what ever weapon they want. From the Klashnekoff to the RPG and possibly much more.
Less than a handful of crimes have ever been committed with a legally owned class III weapon since the law was passed.
Back in the 70's when semi automatic military look alike guns became popular some began collecting. Now the nomenclature has changed to assault rifle, incorrectly I may add. Since an assault rifle by definition is a select fire rifle which fires an intermediate round. I digressed here , sorry.
I hope we all recall who put the kibochi on manufacturing class III weapons.
Ronnie Reagan signed the law which made manufacturer legal only if for a government contract. All of the shop prototypes from the little guys went away.
Lessening the competition with big corporations in the USA and stifling American ingenuity.
I wonder how long it will be before drill presses, lathes and welders are registered?
I know this is an old thread but the points art still interesting.

[Black Butte]

ATF doesn't have much of a sense of humor. A friend of mine found that out the hard way a few years back. :confused:

Don't leave us hanging. Details?

[451 Detonics]

The Akins used a spring to pull the trigger against the finger thus the gun was firing more than one round with a single pull on the trigger. The new SlideFire stock requires the user to pull the trigger for each shot by using the support hand to reset the trigger.

It was the spring that killed the Atkins...

[SDC]

There is no conspiracy to increase NFA costs out of the realm on the average man.

But that WAS the intent of the bill when it was passed; $200 in 1934 translates to more than $3000 today, and the average salary at that time (Depression) was around $1500 per year. They realized that a law that required such a fee would essentially prohibit private ownership (except for the rich), but that anything higher would be so transparent that a court would be likely to strike it down. If they passed a law today that said you had to pay a fee of 2 year's worth of salary to buy a firearm, wouldn't you think that amounted to "a conspiracy to increase costs out of the range of an average man"?

[JWF III]

So, what exactly would it take for a man to legally build a 10-22 fully automatic

Back to the main question...

If I'm not mistaken (and I know I'll be corrected quickly if I am), but I believe on Norrells 10/22s the trigger group is the Title 2 item. Similar to Auto-sears in HKs and Lightning Links in ARs.

IOW, I think you could buy a transferable Norrell trigger group, drop it in your 10/22, and be good to go.

That would be far cheaper than Class 3 FFL, SOT, shop equipment, etc., etc., etc.. Additionally, you could keep it as long as you wanted, and will it to someone at your death. Neither of which you could do with a FA gun you legally manufactured.

Wyman

[MasterSergeantA]

JWF is correct. Norrell trigger packs...with or without a 10/22 attached...are currently going for about $8K. Not cheap by any means, but when compared to setting up shop as a SOT...

UZIs are going for about the same price. M-11/9s are much less. Of course, ammunition costs are very different. If you plan to shoot a LOT, you might actually save money in the long run with the Norrell pack.

[LiquidTension]

Or you could save even more money getting the M11/9 with a Lage Max-11/22 upper :)

[Jim K]

A lot of the weapons flowing into Mexico come from Venezuela, which purchased a factory from Russia to make AK-47's, light MG's and RPG's. But our President once called Chavez a "great Latin American statesman" so nothing has been or will be done. It is easier to get Obama's left-wing base worked up by blaming the "evil" NRA than by blaming a Marxist-Leninist Hero and ally of Iran.

That aside, the exact status of "trick" gadgets to make a gun fire full auto or simulate full auto fire can only be determined in a court. BUT, BATFE can bring in a hundred "experts" to testify their way, and rarely have courts contradicted their views and rulings. And when a federal court does, BATFE appeals to the district court, and on up. Meanwhile, the lower court will always allow the original BATFE ruling to remain in effect, pending appeal. Even when a federal circuit court of appeals rules against them, BATFE says that ruling applies ONLY to that circuit and not to the rest of the country, and the appellant has to take the cast to the Supreme Court and get them to accept it.

You may think a BATFE rule or regulation is silly, stupid, or whatever. But fighting them takes big bucks and plenty of time. In most cases, the citizen eventually decides it isn't worth it and gives up, which is what BATFE counts on.

Jim

[MasterSergeantA]

Liquid Tension is obviously correct. Getting the Lage unit was my answer...but I alrady had the M-11/9 and another of his uppers, so it only made sense. If Calico Light Weapons ever gets around to building their .22LR mod for the M-11 (I already have the 9mm version), I will dance in the meadow at midnight.

Jim is also correct about each of the points he makes. I would add only that I live here down on the border, work at a local gun shop, and knew USBP Special Agent Brian Terry, so I have an additional view of things. It ain't all Comrade Chavez's fault. Comrade Obama has a hand in it, either directly or through incompetence.

[JohnKSa]

ATFE is NOT the big bad wolf everyone claims they are...I have heard horror stories but I have NEVER had an issue with them. You must know the rules and play by the rules.
...
I sell about 50+ NFA items a year so this more than covers my SOT.
...
www.gunrunnersusa.com
You don't get hassled because you're clearly in business. Selling an NFA item a week may not be a big business, but it's obviously more than just a hobby. Besides your NFA business, your website also provides good evidence you are selling other firearms.

That makes you significantly different from someone who really has no interest in running a firearms related business and is merely trying to find a legal loophole that allows them to make or buy a few post-86 machineguns.

[crossrhodes]

Sorry for asking but what is this belt loop and shoe string thing?

[kozak6]

The belt loop thing is a reference to bump firing technique.

The shoe lace thing is a reference to this:
http://jpfo.org/images02/shoestring.jpg

[crossrhodes]

Thanks Kozak6. I was aware of bump fire but never heard it in those term.