[TheEgg]

(Trying to make long story short) -- There had been several reports around our area (rural) about a very large feral dog -- we had lost a cat, some other neighbors had lost a small dog, some chickens, a goat, etc. So everyone was aware and a little nervous about this. Where I live we have no 'animal control'. By all reports, tt was apparently a large german sheppard.

Last Saturday, nice weather, I was out in the back yard doing some target practice with my air rifle, a Beeman CrowMagnum IV in .22 caliber. I had just cocked and loaded, when out of the woods comes running the dog in question -- it had seen another of our cats right at the edge of the woods and grabbed it and proceeded to crush it.

I did the instinctive thing -- raised the rifle, aimed at the head and fired. I had thought that I might be able to startle the dog enough to get it to drop the cat and run. To my great surprise, the dog dropped dead right there, instantly.

Examining the dog, I had hit it square between the eyes, the pellet had penetrated and did a "one shot stop". Distance, 25 yards.

I have only used this air rifle for small varmints around the house and barn, and never intended to use it on anything larger -- this was just "one of those things" that happen fast and you use what you have.

But I have a new respect for the power of these magnum air rifles and wished to relay this experience to let everyone with one of these air rifles know to treat them with the utmost respect

(BTW, the cat, after a trip to the vet and a lot of stitches, will probably be OK!)

[Mark Tyson]

Wow! Interesting. Thanks for the post. Good job protecting your cat! I may now have to get an air rifle for the fox that's been killing pets in my neighborhood.

[TonyB]

I've been looking for a quiet squarrel killer..maybe this is it......thanks for the post....and good shooting BTW..:cool:

[Legionnaire]

Egg, how loud is the CrowMagnum? I bought an R7 because I wanted something quiet. The magnum powered guns all seem pretty loud (for air rifles) to me.

Good shooting, by the way.

[fiVe]

magnum air rifles


Wow! A new & lethal phrase.

[greg700]

If you want a quiet air rifle, get the pneumatic or CO2 kind, the spring-type air rifles can be quite loud.

A good .22 air rifle is more than enough for squirrels. Just make sure you get a decent one (RWS, Beeman, etc.)

[mtnbkr]

Wow! A new & lethal phrase.

Not new at all. That term's been around for years. It's used to describe high powered air rifles over and above the kiddie ones you see at Wal-Mart. At the extreme high end, you can hunt big game.

Chris

[TheEgg]

Don't know how to describe noise level very well -- it is certainly not as loud as a .22lr, but louder than a Daisy BB gun.

I guess the closest I can get is that if you have ever fired a .22lr shot shell, it is about that loud (or soft, depending on your point of view!). It certainly is not silent.

Thanks for the compliments on the shooting -- but in all honesty I must admit that a little bit of luck was with me on that shot!

[Quartus]

Hmmmm. Would a silencer for an air rifle run afoul of BATF regs?

[Grey54956]

Careful. Magnum Air Rifles are the weapon of choice for criminals and drug dealers...:D

[carpettbaggerr]

Lewis&Clark carried an airgun which was capable of killing deer. Someone makes custom airguns firing 50 caliber lead balls at over 1000fps today. Can be used to hunt pigs and larger game, although I can't find the link right now.

[enfield]

I bought my 5 mm Sheridan to kill pigeons in the steel fabricating plant I worked at in Georgia. Pellets would pass thru the pigeon and bouce off the corrugated steel walls/roof. :D

[Triad]

carpettbaggerr, is this (http://www.glbarnes.com/) the link you're talking about?

[Penforhire]

Nice shot.

YES!! Removable silencers for air rifles are a BATF problem. Silly but true. Silencers on air guns are common as dirt in the U.K. though...

[lee n. field]

Would a silencer for an air rifle run afoul of BATF regs?

My understanding (IANAL, etc) is no, as long as it cannot be removed.

Big ones, see here also: http://www.connext.net/~daq/

[carpettbaggerr]

The Quackenbush site was the one I was thinking of. Looks like Barnes has some very nice guns, though they're too expensive for me. :(

[AJ Dual]

The ATF watchword for Airgun and paintball silencers is:

"Readily Convertable"

So if you had an airgun in a caliber that's not in any known firearm, and you permanantly welded a supressor for that caliber to the airgun, it would still boil down to:

"Does the ATF feel like seeing you prosecuted today?"

.177 caliber only? Sorry, there's all sorts of .17 caliber rifles out there.

Welded on? Sorry, you could cut it off with a hacksaw, and duct tape it to a real gun.

Etc. etc. etc.

The ATF has a habit of zip tying parts together on a machine rest and getting it to fire once in the manner they're trying to prosecute, and using that as evidence in court.

I know a few airguns do come with integral suppressors on some models, the Gunpower Stealth comes to mind, (My local gun store even had one for sale) but presumably they've jumped through all the hoops and had thier designs pass muster with the ATF tech branch.

[KingRuger]

i have killed armadillos and opossoms with my gamo single pump 1000fps air gun.

works fine when the .22 is a little to loud. midnight stealth style

[DougCxx]

...If you want a quiet air rifle, get the pneumatic or CO2 kind, the spring-type air rifles can be quite loud....
-Do you mean mechanical noise? The CO2 and PCP guns I have heard were the louder ones. They actually have a muzzle blast that spring-pistons do not....
------
-Spring-piston air rifles do not have any "muzzle blast" as it is, but cheaper ones do have mechanical noise from the giant spring inside going "TWANG!" when you pull the trigger. There's a couple rifles however that use a gas-filled ram (like a car shock absorber) instead of a mechanical spring. Theoben in the UK makes them (A few different models), Hermann Weirach makes a lower-priced one under license also (HW-90). In the US, Beeman sells the Theoben Eliminator as the Crow Magnum (~$1000), and the HW-90 as the RX-2 (~$500). In Europe they come with silencers, but US-market ones get muzzle weights or bare barrels. People in the US who have fitted silencers to these guns have found basically no change in the noise levels.
....
Depending on the caliber used, these guns run up to about 25 ft-lbs (for the Eliminator) and 22 ft-lbs (RX-2). These guns have no muzzle blast at all and make very little noise when fired, and what noise they do make is totally unfamiliar to most people and animals. I have an RX purchased several years back, it is a very nice-shooting airgun and having the power level adjustable is a major strong point. By adjusting the ram pressure, you can "tune" the gun very accurately with just about any pellets. Mine is a .177 that shoots the fabled 1125 FPS, but that requires a light pellet, doesn't get you a lot of accuracy and it's hard on the piston seal. The gun will shoot pellets at supersonic speeds which sounds odd--because you don't hear any muzzle blast, but you hear the pellet crack echo back to you. There is a noticeable time delay between the trigger pull and the noise.
------------
US shooters have gotten ahold of UK "barrel shrouds" for various airguns on the sly and use them.
This is pretty much throwing yourself on the ATF's mercy in advance, however.
If you're in the US and just itching for a legal unlicensed silenced airgun, then check out the Air Force Talon SS--Pyramid Air sells them, for one. $439, PCP mini-tank, single-shot with a "suppressing" barrel shroud.
http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/show.pl?cmd_rifles=show_guns_manufacturer&Manufacturer=Air%20Force
~

[P95Carry]

Egg ... definitely a fine example of effective shot placement .. good result. As you may well have thought yourself tho .. a tad higher perhaps and thicker bone ... maybe not much effect.

It's true tho .... never under estimate a pellet guns potential for damage ... you maybe saw my thread on pellet ballistics?? This one in case you are interested......

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=43643

I have several air weapons the most potent being a ''Eurolux'' .... got thru Sportsman's Guide coupla years back ...... it was quoted as .177 1,000 fps ..... well, it does chrono at 950 with my heavy pellets so it ain't bad at all .... even if ft lb figures seem feeble. It sure does go deep into OSB at 20 yards. .......


Eurolux ......


http://www.bedford.net/design/cb_gun2/eurolux_s.jpg

[Ivanimal]

My Beeman Vulcan in .177 has to its credit 3 Raccons and countless squirrell sized rodents it has also taken on many Ravens and crows. They are to be respected these airguns have lots of UMPH. I only use the high cost ammo that is coated and pointed.

[Standing Wolf]

I'll bet the dog will leave neighborhood pets alone from now on.

[DMK]

Examining the dog, I had hit it square between the eyes, Nice shooting! :cool:

[mtnbkr]

According to folks on the airgun forums, ATF refuses to discuss anything regarding airguns. The claim it is outside their realm of responsibility. I've also never heard of anyone with an integral airgun supressor running afoul of the ATF either.

Chris

[DougCxx]

...According to folks on the airgun forums, ATF refuses to discuss anything regarding airguns. The claim it is outside their realm of responsibility....
- It has been noted that all of the current (three?) different "suppressed" airguns available in the US use barrel shrouds that attach to their receivers -- not their barrels. And this is assumed to be the technical distinction making them "integral"--you cannot put the shroud on any weapon that is not designed for it, unless you make an adaptor. And with the "soda-bottle adaptors" of days gone by, the ATF ruled that the adaptor constituted the constructed part.
....Pure net speculation, but does make some sense.....
~

[El Tejon]

Way to go, Egg! Good shooting, sir. It comes as some surprise, but good to see someone out there knows that animals are to be shot, not coddled or worried about.

Got to love the Crow Magnum. Excellent weapon.

However, my C1 in .177 does most of the work around here. Chipmunks love my flagstone retaining walls. Must have shot 2 dozen of the filthy rats this year alone. :fire:

[JohnKSa]

The official read from the BATF is that a silencer is a silencer and it regulated by virtue of it's inherent ability to reduce the report of a firearm--NOT by reason of what it is currently attached to.

SO, the only way to be truly safe is to be 100% sure that the silencer can't be removed from the airgun and adapted to a firearm. Some airgun manufacturers have designed silencers that are completely integral to the airgun in such a way that it would be impossible to remove them without destroying them. That's the safest way to go.

Pure pneumatic airguns, that is, guns that work on gas pressure alone (Pump, precharged, CO2, etc.) are going to be louder FOR A GIVEN POWER LEVEL than a decent quality spring piston or gas piston gun.

I own a .20 caliber R1 and a .20 caliber Sheridan. Although the R1 is about 200fps faster with a given pellet, the Sheridan is louder.

The reason is that the virtually instantaneous compression of the air inside a spring-piston gun drives the temperature up. That, in turn increases the pressure, and you get this nice dual-effect physical phenomenon that puts pressures through the roof. The pressures and temperatures get so high that you can't use petroleum based lubricants in the compression chamber or they will explode (diesel) during the firing cycle.

Anyway, as soon as the pellet starts to move, the pressure starts to fall. That brings the temperature back down, and the dual-effect phenomenon works the opposite way as the pellet goes down the barrel. The result is that the pellet gets a tremendous initial "boot in the butt" but by the time it exits the barrel, there really isn't a lot of pressure behind it. Low pressure at pellet exit means low muzzle blast.

Of course, there is a lot of mechanical noise. Even a nicely tuned springer makes a good bit of noise during the firing cycle. Tuned or not, there's a lot of metal moving around when you pull the trigger. I've heard experienced airgunsmiths estimate that only about a third of the total noise of firing a springer is due to muzzle blast. In a lower powered gun such as the R7, it's probably lower than that.

Airguns are penetrating weapons. They don't have the energy to shock anything but the tiniest targets, they merely poke holes. But, they are good at poking holes. AND, it turns out that if you are a good shot, and you can poke holes exactly where you need to, you can kill surprisingly large animals.

This is part of why I get such a big kick about the caliber arguments. The fact is that it really IS all about shot placement. Even an airgun will do the trick if you make the shot. There's a guy on another forum who will tell you that the only reason he's alive is that he was carrying a 10mm pistol (instead of a 9mm, 40S&W or .45ACP) when he was attacked by a pack of dogs. Too bad he's not going to read this post--I'd like to know what he thinks of an airgun for use against large dogs... :D For the record, even a high-end magnum gas-spring gun like the Crow Magnum (Theoben Eliminator) is a total wimp compared to even a .22LR.

[Amegatek]

If I had the $500+ for one of those air rifles, I would buy another "real" gun! ;) FWIW, both of my pistols were $100-$150 less than $500 :D

[JohnKSa]

If I had the $500+ for one of those air rifles, I would buy another "real" gun!
First of all, $500 isn't even halfway to the purchase price of a Crow Magnum/Theoben Eliminator.

Second, as a person who owns both quality firearms and quality airguns, I have to say that for the price, it's hard to beat the high-end airguns for quality. I own 4 nice airguns. They all have triggers better than ANY of the firearms in my safe. The metal finish on all 4 is better than ANY of the firearms I own. The sights that came on the guns were superior to nearly anything that comes on a nice firearm. Accuracy out of the box without bedding, gunsmithing, free-floating, etc. has been far better than I can make use of.

Third, I can shoot in my house or back yard, if I want. Ammo costs are trivial. Unless you're really a dedicated shooter, my guess is that you would get that "real" gun to the range fewer than 10 times a year--maybe less if we're talking a rifle. And everytime you went to the range, it would cost you a decent chunk of change in ammo and range fees. So your $500 dollar gun sits in the safe 355 days a year and when you DO take it out, it costs you money. If you had spent that $500 on an airgun, it could be shot anytime you want--every day, if you feel like it--for practically nothing. That means that yield on investment is TREMENDOUSLY higher from an airgun than from a "real" gun.

Fourth, I have been the top money winner in the company gun club for the last two or three years running. In competitions using "real" guns. You don't suppose all that airgun shooting in the garage made the difference?

[artherd]

I had a pump .22 pellet rifle that would easially punch a hole right clean through a 3/4" sheet of plywood.

Also built a silencer (no longer in existance) that quieted it to the sound of the valves cycling inside.

[Amegatek]

JohnKSa,

I wasn't trying to flame quality air guns, or people who own them. Also, I said $500+. Meaning, 500 and up. If I shot in competitions that used quality air rifles, I could see spending the money on one of the Magnum Air Rifles. But for just plinking around the yard, I'll use my trusty Crosman 760 pneumatic rifle. I primarily own firearms for SD, and that was the point I was trying to convey about "real" guns. I also go to the range and punch paper to keep sharp, so if heaven forbid, I ever face a LF encounter, I will better be prepared to hit what I am shooting at. Again, no flames intended, JMHO. Thanks. :)

[DougCxx]

Random airgun notes:
--->Shooting a magnum barrel-cocking airgun on full power is good "regular" shooting practice--cocking the gun takes 40-50 lbs of effort, and the gun itself weighs 10+ lbs, and all this strengthens your arms and shoulders. When you first pick up such an airgun and fire 20-30 shots, your arms are trembling from the strain. I shot mine enough to where I could take two or three hundred shots in a session and not notice the strain. People who try it initially do twenty or so shots, and they start to tremble but they can't see it and so they think that the gun isn't accurate--which isn't true. If you shoot one regularly offhand, you do get a lot steadier with all your shooting offhand.
--->$450 was a lot for an airgun but back then I was young, I had a mostly-pre-unspent paycheck and a place that I could shoot an airgun because it was quieter and would go unnoticed, so getting a nice one made sense. It was quite a bit more trouble for me to go somewhere that I could use a firearm. I had planned a $300 regular-spring gun, but went for the gas-ram gun on the advice of online airgunners.
--->Also back then there were only three "kinds" of airguns in the US: the plastic stuff at Wal-Mart, The Benjamin/Sheridan "pump-up" guns (for $120-$150), and the Beeman catalog. Everything in the Beeman catalog was expensive (I think the cheapest rifle was $300!), but it was built way better than the plastic guns, and was way more accurate than the pump-up guns. This was long before the cheap Chinese and Russian stuff you can get now; there was no other alternatives except try to find someone who could order you a Euopean airgun directly--and it wouldn't be much cheaper (if any) than what Beeman was selling comparable guns for.
--->Beeman is not the company it once was--R. Beeman sold it to Marksman in 1992 or 1993 and they got rid of a lot of the higher-end stuff and brought in fewer down-market replacement items. One great thing that got canned was the awesome Beeman/Hakko line of scopes--most notably the lighted reticle scopes, which still hold their values ten years later (the Beeman lighted SS short scope is a particular EBR favorite). Luckily I got just about all the stuff I wanted before that occurred. They still have some of the good guns, but many of their better accessories are no more. Some of those things have turned up from other channels (Beeman bought and rebranded items from many Euro companies), and some just plain disappeared.
~

[harpethriver]

As the proud owner of an RWS/Diana model 48 .22 calibre side-cocker I can also attest to the surprising stopping power and deadly accuracy of good quality air rifles. There are times and places where a rimfire is not appropriate, and as many of us already know an air rifle is a real gun! No, they are not cheap, it's cliche' but you get what you pay for. I got mine out of Cabela's for $350, and I'm so happy that I'm upgrading to a model 52, which is virtually identical to a 48 but is recoiless.

[Penforhire]

My little Beeman P3 pistol (< $130) is more accurate at 10M than I am. And as stated above, comes with a better trigger than a typical 1911. Really good pellets are still dirt cheap (and made little difference in my bench rest tests). The point about shooting it in the back yard is its huge plus for me, living in a highly developed area (LA). My neighbors might still complain about a high speed .177 rifle but they 'almost' can't hear this pistol.

[JFrame]

Hi Harpethriver,

I have the RWS 52, and although it's a wonderful rifle, I believe it's just a dandified version of the 48, with a fancier stock. If you want the recoiless model, get the 54 (I just didn't want to see you order the wrong one and be royally pi$$ed!). :)

BTW, my kudos also to TheEgg for a great shot!

-- JFrame

[kernal_panic]

$47 remington 582+ $4 box of cci .22 cb shorts= less noise than an air gun with the same or more power.

i have a chinese qb88 and its far more noisy than the above.

[JohnKSa]

Armegatek,

My reply wasn't intended to be as heated as it must have sounded.

What I'm trying to get across is that I probably shoot a hundred pellets through my airguns for every shot from a firearm. Call me crazy, but to me that says that the money spent on my airguns is a much smarter investment than putting the same amount of money into something that just sits in the safe.

For the record, I have somewhere around 30-40 firearms and only about a tenth that many airguns, so I'm not knocking owning firearms or saying that a person should own lots of airguns. I'm just saying that if you think it's wise to spend money to purchase nice firearms which only rarely get used, then it's even smarter to spend the money to get nice airguns that you can shoot anytime.

kernel_panic,

The primers in those CBs contain lead. That means shooting them inside (regardless of the low noise) is a bad idea. Especially if you have children or plan to have children. The lead particles in the smoke can be inhaled and will settle on any exposed surfaces.

[Jeff Thomas]

They are impressive. I used a Benjamin .22 Model 392 with scope to send many bunnies to that bunny hutch in the sky ... very, very effective. And, with that being a pump gun, nothing to buy but pellets, and pretty quiet. Total cost around $150, including scope.

Until the crown was unfortunately damaged in a fall, it was also incredibly accurate.

Visit a few of the airgun sites ... might have been Beeman's. There is a history page out there, and airguns were even used once by the Austrian army, as I recall.

If someone was armed with an air rifle, I would definitely view that as a lethal weapon.

Regards from TX

[mtnbkr]

Hey, if you guys want a quality adult airgun for a decent price, find a BSA Supersport. You can usually find them for $199 or less. There's a company on the Internet that imports them regularly. I can't recall the name, but it's Precision <something>. These are good, british airguns, not chinese crap (scary that the brits can be known for good airguns and not real guns these days).

Chris

[harpethriver]

J-frame-I knew that-but with the king-size headache from too much Christmas chocolate(4 Motrin didn't work)I was temprarily bereft of my senses. The 48/52 is plenty accurate, even with the stock iron sights, however I figure that the recoiless 54 should be more accurate and maybe worthy of scoping. My big decision will be whether to keep the 48 when I receive the 54. Oleg has expressed interest in my 48 so I guess he gets first dibs. Happy Holidays to you and lots of fun shooting times in 04!

[twoblink]

I SOOO want a Beemans..

What do you guys think on the calibers though? .17,.20,.22?

Logistically, I'd like to get a rifle and pistol of the same caliber..

Are the .20's really that much more "umph" than the .17's??

[P95Carry]

Twoblink ...... over the many years I have enjoyed air weapons .... I have goiven much thought to cal .... I have had and used mainly .22 and .177.

On balance now I favor .177 ...... it is possible to get some slightly heavier good quality pellets and .. bottom line is .... usually the actual energy available is about same. Thus - I prefer the flatter trajectory of the .177 and as long as exploited within its range capabilities .. I think that works better.

With good shot placement on small critters ... then 20 to 25 yards sees potentially excellent results.

[JFrame]

Harpethriver:

A big ditto on the Happy Holidays! :)

You'll have to report back on the 54 once you get a chance to run it through its paces. (Okay--yet another round of envy setting in here...)

I'm glad the 48 will have a nice home in either case!

--JFrame

[WonderNine]

I believe that the ATF can regulate silencers for airguns because they (incorrectly of course) classify some silencers as "firearms", correct?

[Penforhire]

I think the real principle on regulation is if it works on an airgun, and is "removeable", it could work on a firearm. How well it works doesn't seem to matter to the BATF.

[MP-44]

http://home.comcast.net/~pelletgunn/air.htm

[MolonLabe416]

Excellent shot! Just reinforces that it's shot placement that carries the day.

I've had to deal with feral and pets-running-wild animals on our small holding as well. It is an unpleasent task, but must be done.

[Legionnaire]

Straight Shooters (http://www.straightshooters.com/ssmenu.html) has a very informative site. I bought Beeman R7 because I wanted an accurate gun on the quiet side, more for plinking and target shooting than hunting and pest control. But it's deadly on barn pigeons! I've toyed with the idea of one of the magnum powered guns, but haven't made the commitment yet.