How would you handle this?


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heavyshooter
November 30, 2010, 03:33 AM
I was wondering if you guys have a policy of telling friends how they will handle your guns BEFORE you hand them over. In the past two weeks I have had the same experience and it has me wondering how I could have avoided it. The list of people that I allow to fire my guns is very short, but I am wondering if I should give a course on proper gun handling.

Two weeks ago I went to the gun range with an acquaintance. After we had been there for about 30 minutes he handed me his Smith & Wesson 629 and I handed him my Ruger GP100 (he is considering whether or not he wants to purchase a Ruger). Each of us loaded up and fired at our targets. After he fired his 6 shots he opened the cylinder, unloaded the spent shells, and then he did the unspeakable. YES, he did the movie star wrist flick to swing the cylinder shut!!! Dude, what tha fat!!! I politely retrieved my gun and explained why he should not do that. I was surprised because he is 20 years older than me, and he owns a few guns; not the least of which is a Smith & Wesson 629!!! I did not think I had to tell him that swinging the cylinder in this manner is a major gun sin.

Two weeks go by and I recover from the traumatic range experience; which brings us to today. My wife asked if she could have my Smith & Wesson 37-2; being the great husband that I am, I said no. But I went out and bought her a Smith & Wesson 442 and I was showing it to my Father-in-Law. I opened the cylinder and then I closed it the proper way. I did this for two reasons. 1) I wanted to show him that it is unloaded and 2) I wanted to show him the proper way to handle it. After I handed it to him he promptly opened it and flicked it shut! It all happened in less than 2 seconds! WHAT THA FAT!!!!! Twice in as many weeks! In his defense, my FIL is new to firearms so I explained it to him. But I also made a mental note to quiz/inform anyone that is going to handle a gun of mine before I hand it to him.

How do you guys and gals handle this?

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shotgunjoel
November 30, 2010, 03:47 AM
I think that you handled both fine. In the future add it to your little ramble to people new to guns before handing them a revolver. I'm not suprised that your friend at the range did it; just because he is older and has guns doesn't mean that he knows or cares about flicking the cylinder. As long as revolvers are in movies and people watch them, people are going to flick them closed.

rozziboy18
November 30, 2010, 03:56 AM
well i always explain to anyone that handles my guns that they are very expensive and

well made. please be carefull. it has worked so far it has worked great with the lucky

few that have handled them.

ok now my horror story! 3 years or so ago i bought my first pistol (that the state knew

about at least). i was at work,on break as usual, and my long time friend had stoped by.

we were at my truck and i produced my new kimber eclipse ll. i handed it to him being

at the time very pround of my new purchase. right when i was explaining the gun to him,

to my horror i see him twurl im new pistol. not only did he do it wrong, but managed to

drop it 3 feet to the pavement!!! it got pretty beat up in the fall too, banged up the

front and rear sight and dinged the muzzle crown. the worst part is he told me not to

worry about it. i replyed with a witty "1200.00 dollars is most sertantly a thing to worry

about!". we are no longer friends for this reason and ever sence i have ben very picky

and chosie with who i allow to handle them. im not a wheel gun man but if some one

droped the slide of one of my guns without a loaded mag in it. we would have words.

cesarv
November 30, 2010, 05:08 AM
To the OP: I think you handled both situations well.

Most of the people I hang out with do not own any guns, and some don't have any experience with any either. When I introduce a new person to guns or shooting, I always go over the 4 safety rules and do a demonstration on how to properly handle the gun that I am about to hand them. This happens before we leave to go to the range and also when we get there.

tasco 74
November 30, 2010, 05:57 AM
funny... there's just something about some guys who get around a firearm and they think they have to start doing stupid crap like slapping and flicking and just being over all rough on em like that's the way guns are supposed be handled... never understood it:confused:.......................

rozziboy18
November 30, 2010, 06:01 AM
totaly agree with tasco here. by the way im digging the "WHAT THE FAT" way to keep er' clean!:cool:

rskent
November 30, 2010, 06:31 AM
If Iím with a newbie, itís a safety and gun handling lecture for sure.

If they have experience, just a few words about safety.

If they drop or otherwise damage my firearms. I believe that broken guns are easier to fix than broken friendships.

Steve

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 30, 2010, 08:57 AM
well i always explain to anyone that handles my guns that they are very expensive and

well made. please be carefull. it has worked so far it has worked great with the lucky

few that have handled them.

ok now my horror story! 3 years or so ago i bought my first pistol (that the state knew

about at least). i was at work,on break as usual, and my long time friend had stoped by.

we were at my truck and i produced my new kimber eclipse ll. i handed it to him being

at the time very pround of my new purchase. right when i was explaining the gun to him,

to my horror i see him twurl im new pistol. not only did he do it wrong, but managed to

drop it 3 feet to the pavement!!! it got pretty beat up in the fall too, banged up the

front and rear sight and dinged the muzzle crown. the worst part is he told me not to

worry about it. i replyed with a witty "1200.00 dollars is most sertantly a thing to worry

about!". we are no longer friends for this reason and ever sence i have ben very picky

and chosie with who i allow to handle them. im not a wheel gun man but if some one

droped the slide of one of my guns without a loaded mag in it. we would have words.

The only two pistols (I'm sure there are more) that are bad to drop the slide on a empty chamber that I know of is the 1911 and the Hi Power.

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 09:27 AM
Two ideas:

1) No quality revolver (unless a pristine collectable with no turn ring, etc.) is going to be damaged in any conceivably measurable way by someone flipping the cylinder shut once or twice. It isn't good gun-handling and folks should be gently corrected for doing it, but you can absolutely reserve your look of shocked horror for something that deserves it (like dropping it or scratching the finish). Guns shouldn't be abused, but they are pretty tough. Don't take it up as your standard practice, but don't feel like the gun has been compromised in some way by their wantonly destructive act.

2) Talking to someone about how to handle your firearms is not a bad idea, especially if they are new. Correcting someone who does something mildly foolish like this in a gentle tone is completely acceptable. You also will be able to note their reaction and use that as a gauge to decide if you really want to share your tools and toys with them in the future.

Gouranga
November 30, 2010, 09:34 AM
I think you did it well. I would tell you, I have a lot of experience with pistols, rifles, shotguns but ZERO with revolvers. While I would not do the movie flick it shut thing, I would not see a reason not to (mainly because of ignorance of the weapon). From what I have learned with the other weapons, I am not likely to do anything to/with a weapon I see in the movies.

I am with you on who handles them. One thing I ask anyone who touches my weapons, is how much experience they have had with them. Anyone with little to no, I will review safety rules with them. If I see any unsafe or inappropriate behavior I will bring it up. Course I am anal and over protective with my weapons anyway.

sansone
November 30, 2010, 09:46 AM
I had a similar experience with a gun-buddy. I showed him my NEW BHP which was painful to purchase because of the price. He proceeds to rub his old crummy auto AGAINST my BHP saying: "look they are the same size".. after recovering from my fainting spell I retrieved my pistol and asked why he would rub two pistols together like making a wish. His answer was comparing size of the two :what: we are still good buddies but I don't hand any "nice" guns to him anymore

cmfireman
November 30, 2010, 10:11 AM
I once went into a gun shop looking for a holster for my Taurus PT1911. I carried the gun in cased, unloaded and locked open, just to show safe so I could take it out on the counter and try out a few different holsters in the shop.

One of the store owners proceeds to pick up my gun, check it unloaded, and drop the slide with no mag in the gun. I took the gun, placed it in the case, and walked out the door. Haven't been back since.

essayons21
November 30, 2010, 10:56 AM
Jeez people, they are guns not fine china.

As Sam1911 mentioned, with few exceptions you are not going to hurt a modern firearm by dropping the slide or snapping the cylinder shut a few times. If you've bought a gun from a gunshop, chances are its already had this done repeatedly as its brought out from behind the glass for previous customers.

They are your guns and you have a right to treat them however you want. Don't freak out on people who handle them a bit rougher than you'd like, because dropping slides and snapping cylinders is well within the norm of gunhandling.

Just One Shot
November 30, 2010, 10:57 AM
I had my son (25) do something similar to my Ruger SP101. After opening it up tio make sure it was empty he spun the cylinder and flipped it shut while it was still spinning. I immediately informed him that he shouldn't do that because it can damage the gun. Only time will tell if he takes this information to heart and remembers it. If his past is any indication, he will never do that again.

I had another incident at a gun store where I let one of the younger employees check out one of my semi auto CCWs. He pulled the slide and looked into the empty chamber after I cleared the gun then he allowed the slide to slam shut on the empty chamber. I immediately told him that he shouldn't do that. The owner was standing beside him and ask me why. I explained that it is possible to damage the breech face when allowing the slide to slam shut without the shell in the chamber to soften the force of the slide moving forward.

I know that the chances of damaging the breech face of a semi are pretty remote but I don't want my guns handled this way. In both cases I remained calm and I used it as an opportunity to teach both these young guys something. How they handle their own guns is up to them but I'm pretty sure they will be a little more cautious when handling someone else's gun.

Just One Shot
November 30, 2010, 11:04 AM
They are your guns and you have a right to treat them however you want. Don't freak out on people who handle them a bit rougher than you'd like, because dropping slides and snapping cylinders is well within the norm of gunhandling.
I have to respectfully disagree. It's not as much about the gun is it is about respecting other peoples property. If you dont think so, how about you let me drive your vehicle or borrow some of your tools?
:D

essayons21
November 30, 2010, 11:18 AM
have to respectfully disagree. It's not as much about the gun is it is about respecting other peoples property. If you dont think so, how about you let me drive your vehicle or borrow some of your tools?

If you didn't inform them ahead of time not to snap the cylinder, etc. the onus of responsibility is on you. The guns were made to have the cylinder swung shut and slide dropped. They are handling them within the design parameters of the gun. Yes it can cause excessive battering of parts if done repeatedly, but one time is not going to harm anything.

My father is an avid woodworker, and has a number of different chisels. Some are used only for handcutting dovetails and other fine work, and are kept very sharp. Another set is used for work around the house. If a neighbor came over to borrow a chisel to do some rough work around the house, and my father gave him the nice set, could he then get mad when it came back dull?

If you have expectations that your firearms will be treated more gently than what is the accepted norm for gun handling, it is on you to inform people of that before you hand them your gun.

I don't make a habit of dropping the slide on an empty chamber on my guns or anyone elses, but I certainly would not be aghast if someone did in unknowingly on one of my guns.

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 11:23 AM
I explained that it is possible to damage the breech face when allowing the slide to slam shut Well, I've never heard that one before. Can't say as I really believe it, either.

Now, there is/was some truth to the idea that 1911s with finely finished trigger jobs could have the engagement surfaces of the sear a bit battered doing that, but there is nothing at all to get concerned over with any modern off-the-shelf service or self-defense type pistol.




ETA: I see tens of thousands of autoloading handguns a year as a competitor, Safety Officer, and Match Director. Every one must be unloaded, shown clear, slide run forward, dryfired, and holstered between six and twenty times in every match -- and who knows how many times in weekly practices. The occasional 1911 shooter still does ease the slide down (and I usually do, too, when shooting a 1911) but NO shooter of any other type of auto does that. If they were so fragile that this could hurt them, they'd be UTTERLY unacceptable as a defensive tool.

essayons21
November 30, 2010, 11:26 AM
I explained that it is possible to damage the breech face when allowing the slide to slam shut

There are some Army FMs that mention that letting the slide/bolt slam home with no round in the chamber on 1911s, M2s, and open bolt MGs can cause excessive battering on the breech face and barrel. Basically with no rim of brass to cushion it, it becomes steel on steel contact.

But this was written to keep Army grunts from playing with their guns and doing it 10,000 times on a guard shift.

sansone
November 30, 2010, 11:33 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. It's not as much about the gun is it is about respecting other peoples property. If you dont think so, how about you let me drive your vehicle or borrow some of your tools?
:D
+1..

hogshead
November 30, 2010, 11:36 AM
I have had several people spin the cylinder then flick the wrist slamming the spinning cylinder into the gun. I correct them every time because I believe that it could harm the gun. Releasing the slide wouldnt upset me though.

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 11:37 AM
1911s, M2s, and open bolt MGs can cause excessive battering on the breech face and barrel. Basically with no rim of brass to cushion it, it becomes steel on steel contact.
I'd almost buy that with open-bolt blowback-operated MGs which were often designed in an exceedingly simple manner and could actually impact the breechface against the barrel.

But not an M2, which features a rotary bolt with a recessed breechface which envelops the cartridge head.

And absolutely not with a 1911 as the breechface doesn't touch the barrel at all except maybe a hair of contact at the barrel hood where such impacts won't have any negative effects at all. If you said the lower lugs against the slide stop pin, maybe... but they're going to get a lot of wear anyway in firing.

This all goes back to the bullseye shooters with razor-edge 2 oz. trigger jobs that were so fragile that they'd hold the trigger back while dropping the slide for fear of disturbing that perfect surface.

Tim the student
November 30, 2010, 11:38 AM
I think it would be good to tell people your expectations beforehand. People sometimes just don't know. Unless they are an ass, I don't think you would offend them by mentioning that. I think you will either get an "I didn't know that" or a smile, and a "Yeah, I know."

FWIW, I didn't know not to do that to a revolver. I've never shot one, and no one I shoot with has one. Then again, I probably wouldn't do it just because I saw it in a movie.

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 11:41 AM
spin the cylinder then flick the wrist slamming the spinning cylinder into the gun.

There's actually two issues at play:

1) Slamming the cylinder closed can bend the crane over a lot of iterations.

2) Spinning the cylinder and then closing it quickly causes the cylinder bolt (stop) to hit the cylinder notches awfully hard, with the possibility of peening the notches and wearing the bolt. This happens anyway to some degree with a lot of fast-paced shooting, but there's no reason to hyper-accelerate that kind of wear with a "stupid gun trick."

scaatylobo
November 30, 2010, 11:52 AM
The last post says it all and I am a bit surprised that not all here know that FACT.

I have had it happen and I am not polite about it no matter who MISHANDLES my guns.

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 11:57 AM
I have had it happen and I am not polite about it no matter who MISHANDLES my guns.


Right, right, but read what I said back in post 9. Someone doing this once, or twice, or probably over and over for 5 minutes, hasn't actually hurt your gun in any measureable way. It isn't a good idea to make a habit of it, but there's no reason to be impolite to someone over it. Just teach them, gently, the right way to handle things and go on with your friendship. If they won't listen to you, then perhaps that is indeed RUDE, and you should reconsider their value as a freind and shooting buddy.

But most of this is much ado about nothing.

Tim the student
November 30, 2010, 11:57 AM
The last post says it all and I am a bit surprised that not all here know that FACT.

Why are you surprised? Why would you think that? Not all of us shoot revolvers, nor do all of us read up on them either.

If this were the revolver sub-forum, I could see it a bit more, but people go there to learn things too - they don't go in there knowing everything about them. The level of knowledge ranges from beginner (or pre-beginner I guess) to experts.

Mark J
November 30, 2010, 11:57 AM
If I lend out my gun? It is to be considered an honor that I would trust you with my weapon in the first place. Rule one, all weapons are loaded, a handgun is safe when the magazine is removed, the slide locked to the rear and the chamber empty. You will receive and return it that way.
My weapons are kept immaculate. You will receive and return it that way. Any repairs needed as a result of wear and tear will be shared by those who benefit from its use. You will return my weapons in better shape than you received them or the same shape. To trust one with your weapons is the highest honor you can bestowe upon your friend, he is a brother or she a sister entrusted with something very special. I would have it no other way.
The way your weapon was treated may have been just the way he did things and I am guilty of the same. My wheel guns I load and slap and never had an issue, weapon in a safe direction, finger off the trigger of course. I say this only because I am guilty of same, but they are mine to with what I wish. Problem is it is second nature to my reload, not an easy habit to break and I would have made the same error. Combat training means speed, speed means get it done now hence the snap. With auto's you'll see a hard slap and pull, so the round will chamber immmediately, course of fire can continue. It's all in what you know right or wrong.

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 12:00 PM
My weapons are kept immaculate. You will receive and return it that way. Any repairs needed as a result of wear and tear will be shared by those who benefit from its use.

And that's fine as far as it goes. Now, if your honored friend flicks the cylinder closed on your 686 or lets the slide slam home on your Glock 19, go ahead down to your local gunsmith and ask him how much it will cost to have the resulting damage fixed.

That aught to be good for a laugh! :D

Gouranga
November 30, 2010, 12:19 PM
lol. Well one good thing, I can honestly say I learned something new as far as treatment of revolvers goes. Never used one, may never do so but I would thank the OP for that bit of info.

I can understand being anal about your stuff. I am about mine. On the flip side, unless someone is deliberately being an idiot with it, should they do something incorrect I correct them calmly. If there is something that can be a MAJOR issue, I address it before giving them my weapon. Otherwise I would chill out. Think of it as a learning experience for them. That couple of shots your revolver takes, and the follow up discussion you have about why that is a bad thing, saves the lives of many other guns down the road, lol.

There are so many different weapons, so many different designs. I can tell you even the difference in how the manufacture instructions between my 2 ARs is drastically different and they are at least mechanically very similar weapons.

My wife's KelTec has different "rules" as far as dropping the slide than my M&P. I don't assume anyone know the specifics of my firearms before using them.

essayons21
November 30, 2010, 12:48 PM
But not an M2, which features a rotary bolt with a recessed breechface which envelops the cartridge head.

Huh? Rotary bolt on an M2?

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 12:50 PM
Which M2 are you referring to? The M2 that comes to mind is the full-auto version of the M1 Carbine.

The M3 "Grease gun" was an open-bolt submachine gun, though.

A.H. Fox
November 30, 2010, 12:50 PM
I don't let other folks use/handle my guns and I don't ask to use or handle other folks guns.

...if you want to handle a gun, get your own! :cool:

essayons21
November 30, 2010, 12:52 PM
Which M2 are you referring to? The M2 that comes to mind is the full-auto version of the M1 Carbine.

The M3 "Grease gun" was an open-bolt submachine gun, though.

I was referring to the M2HB .50 cal. closed-bolt machine gun

Also, I'm not saying that the Army FMs are necessarily valid, but I think that they may be one of the sources of the slide slamming causing damage meme.

Honestly there is not much you can really do to a Ma Duece to damage it past functionality.

Sam1911
November 30, 2010, 12:55 PM
I don't let other folks use/handle my guns and I don't ask to use or handle other folks guns.

...if you want to handle a gun, get your own!


Well ... that's a pretty sure way to see the end of the shooting community in our lifetime ...

I LIKE getting people hands-on experience with firearms. Sort of a goal of mine.

Dokkalfar
November 30, 2010, 01:27 PM
But most of this is much ado about nothing.

True, but there's a difference between unknowingly copying stupid hollywood tricks, and abusing a gun. Someone who doesn't know better, sure, not an issue. Educate them, and go on with life. If they keep doing it, you have a problem.

Basically, doing this a couple times shouldn't damage anything. However, not saying anything about this lets people develop bad habits that can damage a firearm.

Old krow
November 30, 2010, 01:41 PM
I think that you handled it pretty well personally. I take new shooters to the range from time to time and I generally have the conversation up front. Since we're generally at my range and our by-laws specifically state that I am responsible for them, we all have the chat beforehand and it seems to work out okay. I really haven't run into very many people that were rude or disrespectful about things like this. If they're going to be blatantly disrespectful about it, I have a cure for that too. That has not been my experience so far though. It has been a very "correctable" issue as far as I have seen.

I don't remember anything in the Army FMs about the M1911 and the slide slamming forward on an empty chamber. Army FMs really aren't my area of expertise either. I've only read one and that was for personal knowledge, it could very well exist, I just haven't seen it. I have heard some instructors say it before. The M1911 was unique for me in that I got to train with it with multiple agencies/organizations. Some of the more "high tempo" stuff, like Mark J was saying operated under the "let it slam forward" mentality. On the outside most of what I have seen concerning the 1911 was like Sam said, it was competitors.

Of the few handguns that I do own, I'm sure that I am far harder on them on them than someone flicking the cylinder closed once or twice. I don't particularly care for it, but if it happens it happens. I'll say something about it, and probably nicely. I've probably taken 7 or 8 new shooters to the range this year, of those all but one or two have continued shooting. If my cylinder had been slammed shut each time by each shooter I'd still say it was worth it in the end.

Onward Allusion
November 30, 2010, 03:14 PM
You did fine in both scenarios. (In my mind) I would have wanted to pistol whip them, however. :)


heavyshooter (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=75136)
http://www.thehighroad.org/images/icons/icon5.gif How would you handle this?

Wheeler44
November 30, 2010, 04:54 PM
Well ... that's a pretty sure way to see the end of the shooting community in our lifetime ...

I LIKE getting people hands-on experience with firearms. Sort of a goal of mine.
Well said Sam......I teach a program..Currently advertised at the bottom of this page....

I have loaned up to 11 at a time at certain shoots...Mostly to women and children with zero experience.....Most firearms are very robust..Almost all are repairable....Salvaging 2A rights that are eroded or removed would be a very challenging task...It is far easier to protect our freedom by sharing with as many as possible..

W44

788Ham
November 30, 2010, 04:56 PM
I have two very nice revolvers, a S&W 629, and a Colt Python. When I decided to purchase both of them, I'd spent a lot of time working overtime to achieve this goal. The Smith being stainless, it can hold up a little better than the blued version, because of tensile strength and not showing wear/scratches, etc. Now, that being said, the Python has that beautiful Royal blue finish, yes I know its a firearm also, however, neither of my revolvers are movie set pieces to have the cylinders slammed shut, twirled and possibly dropped on the ground, and treated like you once did your Mattel Fanner 50 ! It doesn't matter if its a Kimber Elite II, or an 6" Colt Python, if you want to handle these firearms, then act like you know what's going on. If you're not sure about something, then "YOU" ask before taking it and handling it! Don't always assume the gun owner is the one ultimately responsible, if you aren't sure how to be responsible about handling super nice firearms, then leave your hands off of them, that's probably a pretty good indication as to "why" you don't own a super nice firearm! I'm very particular as to whom handles my firearms, if by some perfunctory chance of your handling other tools or items in my presence, the last thing I'm going to do is give you an opportunity to screw up something I've worked long and hard to procure! If a Fanner 50 is how you want to treat a revolver, that's okay by me, get your own!

MrOldLude
November 30, 2010, 05:19 PM
To the individuals here who freak out about a little abuse from time to to, hopefully you've never taken your car's engine to redline either.

That said, I've gone hollywood on my revolver a few times, I've dry-fired the hell out of my glock, and slammed the slide down on it empty countless times. After thousands of rounds through both of them, they're still shoot straight as the day I got em.

Onward Allusion
November 30, 2010, 05:36 PM
^^^^

It's one thing to abuse your own stuff. It's another when someone else does it for you.

doorman
November 30, 2010, 05:52 PM
Unfortunately most gun handling skills that are learned by non-gun people come from the movies and tv. They are just emulating what they see and believe it to be good. When I take a new shooter to the range I mention the four rules but I am only concerned about two things. Muzzle and Trigger discipline. I watch like a hawk and will put my hand on their shoulder if I see something not right.
Most new shooters are pretty excited about making the thing go bang so I try not to overload with a bunch of information at one time.

Just One Shot
December 1, 2010, 10:10 AM
SAM1911 Well, I've never heard that one before. Can't say as I really believe it, either.

I guess you missed the part where I said: I know that the chances of damaging the breech face of a semi are pretty remote but I don't want my guns handled this way.

Sam1911
December 1, 2010, 10:33 AM
I guess you missed the part where I said:No, I read that. I was simply commenting on whether or not it could happen.

You're free to set whatever terms you like for how you want your guns to be treated -- right down to not wanting folks to breathe on them without first chewing a mint! :D

Just One Shot
December 1, 2010, 04:19 PM
You're free to set whatever terms you like for how you want your guns to be treated -- right down to not wanting folks to breathe on them without first chewing a mint!
http://i53.tinypic.com/2n6vsl4.jpg

jeepguy
December 1, 2010, 08:04 PM
a friend of mine who doesn't know anything about firearms, overheard another friend & i talking about limp risting a pistol. well he thinks this is terrible and a firearm shouldn't do this. we explained to him that it isn't the firearms fault but the shooters, but he still didn't realy belive us. after a few weeks go by, my one friend and i were going to go rifle shooting and asked him if he wanted to go. he said he wasn't sure and had to check to see if he was free. he then looked at me and said if i go i can shoot your pistol and test that failure thing(with a smile). I SAID NO NOT WITH MY FIREARM!!! i had forgot his fascination with ftf thing becuse of limp wristing. needless to say i was not happy. he didn't know it but we were only going for rifles anyway. he not only would have handled my firearms recklessly, (imo) he would have been reckless on the range too. its one thing to experience a ftf inadvertently, as these things can happen. however to do it intentionally is reckless to me. he is the only one i would ever have to tell not only how to treet my firarms but to act responsibly on the firing line. i always go over proper safty both with firearms and range rules, but i shouldn't have to tell someone these types of things.

scaatylobo
December 1, 2010, 10:46 PM
"Right, right, but read what I said back in post 9. Someone doing this once, or twice, or probably over and over for 5 minutes, hasn't actually hurt your gun in any measureable way. It isn't a good idea to make a habit of it, but there's no reason to be impolite to someone over it. Just teach them, gently, the right way to handle things and go on with your friendship. If they won't listen to you, then perhaps that is indeed RUDE, and you should reconsider their value as a freind and shooting buddy.

But most of this is much ado about nothing."


I have not figured out the quote thing,but I totally disagree as to the possible damage to the crane of a well made revolver.

If your talking Ruger,maybe it would not harm it,but they are built like tanks.

I would act the same if a 'friend' tossed a vase onto a table and it did not break = the first time.

I take pride in the items and tools that I bought and expect all to honor that.

If they cannot or will not ,then most likely they would not be a close enough person for me to hand a gun to in the first place.

But having had this happen while with a close friend and he handed it to another who was RUDE and careless with it = I said my piece and stood by that.

The wolrd may have become PC and all touchy feely,I did not and choose to be a man who speaks his mind.

I do not do so in any way to harm,but dont 'harm' me either,that includes harming my tools.

LibShooter
December 1, 2010, 11:20 PM
C'mon guys. Our guns are designed to contain thousands of little explosions over many decades. They are very unlikely to suffer from an occasional flick of the wrist our slam of a slide. I think I would just let anything go that doesn't present a safety hazard.

Now, I might not loan the offender my gun in the future, but I see no reason to bring it up after the deed is done.

CZguy
December 1, 2010, 11:50 PM
C'mon guys. Our guns are designed to contain thousands of little explosions over many decades. They are very unlikely to suffer from an occasional flick of the wrist our slam of a slide. I think I would just let anything go that doesn't present a safety hazard.

Now, I might not loan the offender my gun in the future, but I see no reason to bring it up after the deed is done.

I agree.........heck one of my pleasures in life is teaching others about firearms. ;)

But I don't like to loan out my chainsaw. :D

tasco 74
December 2, 2010, 12:01 AM
"flicking" a cylinder shut on any revolver is a good way to spring the crane................ seen a sprung crane lots of times....................

heavyshooter
December 2, 2010, 12:17 AM
I agree with those of you who are saying that flicking the cylinder is not worth damaging (or even destroying) a relationship. I would never just verbally assault my Father-in-Law over such a transgression; especially because he is new to the gun community (Oh, and because heís my wifeís dad :)). I agree with Sam1911 in that allowing others to shoot is essential to the shooting community. I taught my FIL how to fire a weapon and he has been hooked ever since. I have decided that I cannot assume that anyone, even gun owners, know the potential weak points of a firearm (putting the automatic slide discussion aside, it is clear that flicking the cylinder shut is a no-no!). As I said in the opening post, my friend had a very nice, rather expensive revolver with him at the range that day and he still did not know to not flick the cylinder shut. My position is that others should treat my guns the way I treat them. Having said that, I cannot assume that everyone is aware of how I want them treated. So from now on, everyone gets the 30 second stump speech before I hand the weapon over.;)

Balrog
December 2, 2010, 12:26 AM
Has anyone actually seen a revolver that was damaged by flicking the cylinder shut?

Centaur 1
December 2, 2010, 12:53 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. It's not as much about the gun is it is about respecting other peoples property. If you dont think so, how about you let me drive your vehicle or borrow some of your tools?
:D
I have to totally agree, it's a respect issue plain and simple. Your friend takes you for a test ride in his new sports car, when you get out do you close the door, or slam the door? Spinning on the finger, would you do that to a piece of fine china that belonged to someone else, they're showing it to you to admire, it's not an audition for the Ed sullivan show.

Sam1911
December 2, 2010, 08:31 AM
I have not figured out the quote thing,Easy: Click this button: http://www.thehighroad.org/images/editor/quote.gif You'll see something that looks like [ QUOTE ]*[ /QUOTE ] (but without the extra spaces I added) show up in your reply window. Cut and paste what you want to quote in between the two ] [ brackets (where I put an asterisk). You don't even have to hit the button, though. You can just type [ QUOTE ] your quoted text here [ /QUOTE ]. (Again, without the spaces.)

but I totally disagree as to the possible damage to the crane of a well made revolver.
I've said several times that this CAN damage the crane. But it isn't likely to on the first try -- or the 5th, etc. Someone who does it once out of ignorance doesn't need to be drawn and quartered. Someone who does it again, after being asked not to ... maybe. ;)

I would act the same if a 'friend' tossed a vase onto a table and it did not break = the first time.Really? :scrutiny: Seems to me that throwing fine decorative porcelain onto hard surfaces is the sort of thing that most folks inherently understand not to do. Flicking a revolver shut is something that (back when movies and TV actually showed revolvers...) average folks see all the time. Expecting someone unfamiliar with them to have analyzed that action and have logically deduced that it could damage a steel firearm is a bit of a stretch.

Expecting an inexperienced person to know this is unreasonable. Treating them like the world's biggest jerk because they did something that is not commonly understood to be harmful (and which, again, didn't harm your gun that one time) is not an acceptable response.

I take pride in the items and tools that I bought and expect all to honor that. If they cannot or will not ,then most likely they would not be a close enough person for me to hand a gun to in the first place.
And perhaps here is the crux of the matter. If you have certain firearms that you consider to be very fragile or otherwise easily damaged by a careless or ignorant act -- either keep them very safe and don't share them, or do share them, but take the responsibility for their preservation on yourself.

E.g.: If you're going to hand a person a truly NIB Python or Registered Magnum that doesn't even have a turn ring -- maybe caution your pal against cocking the hammer BEFORE you hand it to him. Maybe think carefully about this pal and decide if he's the sort of person who is going to ignore such instructions, or forget.

When you have demands that are higher than those dictated by "common" knowledge or "common" courtesy, the onus is on you to make those restrictions known before hand.

tasco 74
December 7, 2010, 12:30 AM
i have seen crane damage from "flicking" a cylinder.... it's a space where the guns frame and crane fit together......... the crane is sprung and the chamber no longer lines up with the forcing cone of the barrel....... i am a revolver guy and that's all i look at so yes i've seen such damage.........

788Ham
December 7, 2010, 12:45 AM
Thank you tasco, these are my sentiments exactly. I've worked hard all my life for things I now have, just because you don't have them, don't ruin mine because of some "dude" you see on TV.:fire:

Sam1911
December 7, 2010, 09:02 AM
I've worked hard all my life for things I now have, just because you don't have them, don't ruin mine because of some "dude" you see on TV.

Certainly. And, since you value these things so highly (and rightly so) take the responsibility to make sure that your guest knows your rules for handling them. Don't put someone in a position to make a mistake out of ignorance and then treat them poorly because of their lack of knowledge.

Protect your treasured posession and your relationship with a friend and fellow shooter (maybe even a new member of our shooting community) by making sure they know the right way before they have a chance to the wrong thing.

scaatylobo
December 7, 2010, 10:11 AM
Quote
Expecting an inexperienced person to know this is unreasonable. Treating them like the world's biggest jerk because they did something that is not commonly understood to be harmful (and which, again, didn't harm your gun that one time) is not an acceptable response.

I would never hand a firearm to a person that I did not KNOW to be a person of responsibility and one that I KNEW to know and understand firearms.

Just as I would not hand them a vase and explain it was not to be thrown,like a 3 year old.

But I have seen those do rude things with others guns and since they do cost a 'bit' I feel I am allowed to say my piece.

It may not be your way,and you can dissaprove,but I do say things like "careful its a fine tool".

If that is not enough,then the wods JERK might fall from my lips.

The least they will hear is "Hey,where did you learn to handle a gun".

If that insults their sensibilitys - too bad,they insulted mine.

Broken Anvil
December 7, 2010, 02:16 PM
All of my friends know the rules......very simple.......my wife, my tools, my dog and my guns.......HANDS OFF.

Sam1911
December 7, 2010, 02:30 PM
I would never hand a firearm to a person that I did not KNOW to be a person of responsibility and one that I KNEW to know and understand firearms.And that pretty much takes care of the problem. If someone who does know better treats your things poorly, they deserve a strong word of correction, and possibly to lose your trust with such things in the future.

I am fairly frequently working with new and very inexperienced shooters, however, and I can't always assume they know much more that what they saw on TV. Hence my admonition to perhaps keep some of your nicer guns in reserve until a new shooter has learned a bit and shown you how respectfully they treat you and your guns.

but I do say things like "careful its a fine tool".
If that is not enough,then the wods JERK might fall from my lips.
The least they will hear is "Hey,where did you learn to handle a gun".None of that sounds too boorish -- especially if said to someone you already believe to know better.

All of my friends know the rules......very simple.......my wife, my tools, my dog and my guns.......HANDS OFF.If that's really your approach, then this wouldn't come up at all, now would it?

I don't have a "hands-off" attitude because I spend a fair bit of time introducing new folks to the sport as well as sharing firearms with trusted friends.

But, sure, if I owned something that was truly irreplacable I would be very cautious who I let handle it. And I would absolutely require that they show the proper care.

Al LaVodka
December 7, 2010, 10:57 PM
Presuming you had to correct them, how would YOU like to be corrected?
Therein is the answer...
Al

1911 guy
December 8, 2010, 02:21 AM
People see this done (the wrist flick) so often that they assume it is normal. Non-gun people are completely ignorant of the inner workings of a revolver and many gun people are not revolver people.

When I owned revolvers, I did make a habit of telling people "please close the cylinder gently. It's bad for the gun to be flipped around when open."

My Dad did this once to a Ruger GP100 I had. Explained to him that the mass of the cylinder yanks on the crane and buggers things up. His response was completely honest. "I see it done all the time and didn't want you to think I was a total idiot about guns." Ahh. Hollywood strikes again.

This is the guy that taught me to shoot, but just rifles and shotguns. I became afflicted by handguns all on my own.

CraigC
December 8, 2010, 03:24 AM
I make sure they understand not to drop the hammer on a single action revolver from the half cock notch. Incessantly spinning the cylinder gets a firm correction. Folks who abuse my guns never get the opportunity again.

supham
December 8, 2010, 10:58 AM
I'm not familiar with revolvers and would assume you could just flick it shut.

I have NERF gun wars with my son and I get the 8 shooter, cylinder style gun. I do the wrist flick every time. I had no idea the NERF gun could handle this stress and a S&W / Ruger could not.

Learn something new everyday.

9mmepiphany
December 8, 2010, 02:24 PM
I'm not familiar with revolvers and would assume you could just flick it shut.

I have NERF gun wars with my son and I get the 8 shooter, cylinder style gun. I do the wrist flick every time. I had no idea the NERF gun could handle this stress and a S&W / Ruger could not.

Learn something new everyday.
...and that's why we discuss these things with folks who have less experience, because everyone can't be expected to know things about platforms they have not been exposed to.

The nerf gun, doesn't have the mass or elasticity issues of a steel gun

supham
December 8, 2010, 03:16 PM
...and that's why we discuss these things with folks who have less experience, because everyone can't be expected to know things about platforms they have not been exposed to.

The nerf gun, doesn't have the mass or elasticity issues of a steel gun
I agree. I read the entire thread to see what else I was ignorant about. I'm picking my up my first 1911 later today and did not know about dropping the hammer...

JoeSlomo
December 8, 2010, 03:32 PM
How do you guys and gals handle this?

Depends on the individual.

Inexperienced shooters get a safety and handling demo and briefing prior.

Experienced shooters get a handling demo and briefing.

In my experience the new guys pretty much do everything you tell them to do, the way you show them how you want it done. The "experienced" guys, on the other hand, are the ones you have to be careful of, as their years of "experience" may consist of years of "experience" handling firearms unsafely.

TX1911fan
December 8, 2010, 04:03 PM
Dry firing a 1911 will not harm it. I've done it hundreds of times with all of my 1911s and suffered no ill effects. I don't own revolvers anymore, but when I did, if someone flipped the cylinder shut, I told them that despite Hollywood to the contrary, that is not the proper way to close the cylinder, and it can damage the gun. Done in a nice way, and they were usually very sorry, to which I replied "ah, no big deal, once or twice won't matter. I just wanted you to know, mostly, so you'd laugh at the movies from now on." That always relieved the tension and preserved the friendship.

heavyshooter
December 8, 2010, 11:36 PM
Good stuff people.

Zombiphobia
December 8, 2010, 11:59 PM
to my horror i see him twurl im new pistol. not only did he do it wrong, but managed to

drop it 3 feet to the pavement!!! it got pretty beat up in the fall too, banged up the

front and rear sight and dinged the muzzle crown. the worst part is he told me not to

worry about it. i replyed with a witty "1200.00 dollars is most sertantly a thing to worry

about!".

"You're right... YOU worry about it. You owe me 12k for a new pistol...."


I think a LOT of ppl care nothing for other ppl's belongings and are absolutely careless with them. I no longer allow anyone to handle my guns unless I know they are responsible and know how to handle them. Same as with everything else. DVD's too.. anytime I let anyone borrow one it comes back ruined.. IF it comes back, so I don't let anyone borrow/use it anymore.

But wow, the guy drops YOUR gun and tells you not to worry about it??? What an @$$

RonDeer10mm
December 9, 2010, 07:40 PM
I never let people handle my guns ever!

Ole Coot
December 10, 2010, 01:58 PM
Revolvers, I open the cylinder, place my thumb to hold it open and show the person the revolver, then close the cylinder and let him handle the revolver warning to treat it as loaded. Pistol, I drop the mag, lock slide back and hold the mag while the person looks at the pistol. Don't tolerate ignorance with firearms.

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