38/357 Rifle Loads


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ruger1228
December 5, 2010, 08:27 AM
I purchased a Marlin 1895 cowboy rifle in 38/357 magnum, I already reload this caliber for my Ruger Blackhawk. My question is, Can I use these same rounds for the Marlin rifle? My shooting would be mostly plinking and informal target shooting. No cowboy competition.

Thanks for the help.

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woodsoup
December 5, 2010, 08:41 AM
Works for me so it should work for you too. Hodgon site has .357 load data for rifles. Make sure you choose the rifle cartridge type. Example below.

Cartridge: 357 Magnum
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads

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Maximum Loads

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Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

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180 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.575" 12.7 1185 36,900 CUP 13.7 1325 40,900 CUP
180 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H110 .357" 1.575" 13.0 1324 36,800 CUP 13.5 1381 39,100 CUP


NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS

Jeff H
December 5, 2010, 09:11 AM
Beware, however, working up "hot" loads for the lever action and then firing them by mistake in the revolver!

While there is certainly truth to this statement...

I already reload this caliber for my Ruger Blackhawk

There aren't many 357 guns stronger than the Blackhawk. Mine is a tank.

OldMac
December 5, 2010, 09:32 AM
I am usually more concerned with the reversed situation. According to the Hornady manual, the maximum loads for the rifle are lower than the revolver. I usually try to find a load that is identical so I don't have to worry about it.
e.g. 160gr bullet with IMR 4227: rifle=13.8gr(14.3gr max), revolver=13.8gr(14.5gr max)

ReloaderFred
December 5, 2010, 09:57 AM
As long as you're not loading maximum charges for your revolver, your loads will be fine in the Marlin. What you will find is that the Marlin will like Round Nose Flat Point bullets much better than Semiwadcutter bullets for feeding. You'll also get smoother feeding with your .38 Special loads with an over all length of at least 1.480". All the rounds loaded for the rifle will also require a good roll crimp, as the magazine spring produces a lot of pressure, especially with a full magazine. A collapsed round (the bullet pushed into the case) will lock up the action.

My wife and I both shoot Marlins for SASS matches, and this has been our experience.

Hope this helps.

Fred

rcmodel
December 5, 2010, 12:46 PM
I don't think anyone lists data that is not safe in either revolvers or lever-actions.

SAAMI Max pressure spec for the .357 is 35,000 PSI, no matter what you shoot them in.

What you won't find in the rifle data section is mouse fart loads using fast powder and jacketed bullets.

They might work fine in a revolver, but might stick in the barrel of a rifle.

rc

Furncliff
December 5, 2010, 01:25 PM
I found this article by John Taffin very helpful. I have been shooting a lot of reload .38 specials in my Marlin. After reading the article I tried some of the .357 mag loads he listed and found one that was a huge improvement in accuracy over my .38's.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_50/ai_n6275756/

zxcvbob
December 5, 2010, 09:14 PM
Something I've recently discovered with my Marlin is that it will cycle .357 Magnum DEWC's just fine, and I can load 11 in the magazine. Now I just gotta see if it will shoot them OK. (I'm planning to load them up to CIP pressures instead of SAAMI if I can get there without excessive leading. Should be able to hit 1700 fps using AA#7 or 2400, and close to that with Power Pistol)

kelbro
December 5, 2010, 10:11 PM
My 1894CS loads 357 WCs just fine. I crimp mine in the first groove. Never shot them in it so I don't know about the leading.

Daniel Rando
December 6, 2010, 01:06 AM
do not fire anything loaded for that rifle in that pistol, my dad blowed the cylender and arked the fram on a blackhawk . Dont do It!

ArchAngelCD
December 6, 2010, 01:10 AM
.357 Magnum ammo is .357 Magnum ammo no matter if you fire it in a Carbine or handgun. It's all the same ammo unless you want to use a different bullet for hunting in your Carbine.
Hodgon site has .357 load data for rifles.
The charge weights are the same on the handgun and rifle data. The difference is the velocity numbers. They give you the velocity reading from the longer barrel in the rifle section. Again, the charge weights are the same since the SAAMI pressure limits are the same.

evan price
December 6, 2010, 05:01 AM
357 Magnum is defined by SAAMI has a maximum PSI level and that is the same for a rifle OR a pistol. There's no +P 357 which has safe data anywhere except for the person who developed it. IMHO using a slower powder in a rifle is beneficial simply because you have more burn time in the longer barrel. However properly loaded Magnums will already be loaded with a slow powder like H4227 or W296/H110 and you can't do much with that. You absolutely can't add a couple more grains to a max loading "because it's a rifle"!!!

Anything loaded to SAAMI standards will work in a rifle OR a pistol, with the exception of very light loads as has been said above are not wise in a long tube (rifle barrel).

Skip_a_roo
December 6, 2010, 06:05 AM
Well, I think you need to check what the rifle says on the side of the barrel first. All of the Marlin 1895's that I've ever seen are 45/70 caliber. They do make a 444 Marlin in the same configuration. I think you have a Marlin 1894 friend. It is the only model they currently make in 38/357Mag.

The "cowboy" model has an octagon barrel and Ballard rifling. The original Marlin 1894 in that caliber had their micro groove rifling that didn't like fast lead bullets.

Now, if you have an 1894C, I can help because I have the exact same rifle! ;)

It is going to depend on what you want to do with the rifle. Are you hunting with it? Then you can find loads that really crank it up using the full length of the barrel. Recently, Brian Pearce had an article in Rifle Magazine where it talks about the 357Mag Marlin and wringing out all you can from the 20" barrel with safe loads.

I am currently using a load from that article for the wife to hunt with. It has a 158gr XTP running just over 2000fps from the little carbine! That makes the load right at the bottom of the 35Remington performance. That is real good in states where they don't allow high powered rifles for deer hunting, like Indiana.

At any rate, in answer to your question, yes you can. :D

Kernel
December 6, 2010, 06:47 AM
I found this article by John Taffin very helpful. I have been shooting a lot of reload .38 specials in my Marlin. After reading the article I tried some of the .357 mag loads he listed and found one that was a huge improvement in accuracy over my .38's.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...0/ai_n6275756/

“To me, the 10-shot 1894C .357 Magnum is the handiest and most desirable of all centerfire rifles of any caliber or action type.” -- John Taffin

Now, that’s saying something!

squarles67
December 6, 2010, 10:46 AM
Anything within SAMMI spec for .357 mag is safe for a revolver or rifle so chambered. I have also found as someone already mentioned that RNFP feed better in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy. Mine feeds both 38 special and 357 mag equally well.

I use 2.9g of Clays under a 158g RNFP (Missouri Bullet #15 Cowboy) in a 38 special case for a Cowboy competition load and it is quite accurate in both my rifle and revolvers and also very economical to load.

Factory Americal Eagle .357 Mag 158g JSP clocked at 1820fps out of my 20" barrel Marlin. 16.7 grains of Lil Gun in a 357 case and 158g Remington JHP gives me 1838 fps and is also very accurate in my gun.

ruger1228
December 6, 2010, 10:52 AM
Well, I think you need to check what the rifle says on the side of the barrel first. All of the Marlin 1895's that I've ever seen are 45/70 caliber. They do make a 444 Marlin in the same configuration. I think you have a Marlin 1894 friend. It is the only model they currently make in 38/357Mag.

The "cowboy" model has an octagon barrel and Ballard rifling. The original Marlin 1894 in that caliber had their micro groove rifling that didn't like fast lead bullets.

Now, if you have an 1894C, I can help because I have the exact same rifle! ;)

It is going to depend on what you want to do with the rifle. Are you hunting with it? Then you can find loads that really crank it up using the full length of the barrel. Recently, Brian Pearce had an article in Rifle Magazine where it talks about the 357Mag Marlin and wringing out all you can from the 20" barrel with safe loads.

I am currently using a load from that article for the wife to hunt with. It has a 158gr XTP running just over 2000fps from the little carbine! That makes the load right at the bottom of the 35Remington performance. That is real good in states where they don't allow high powered rifles for deer hunting, like Indiana.

At any rate, in answer to your question, yes you can. :D
This is the rifle I have:http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894centerfire/1894C.asp
Sorry about the mixup.
Any hints or pointers on removing the breech bolt and ejector from the rifle for cleaning?
Thanks for pointing out the correct model number.

ArchAngelCD
December 6, 2010, 10:56 AM
I also own a Marlin 1894C and I agree, it's a great rifle to own and shoot!

rcmodel
December 6, 2010, 11:47 AM
do not fire anything loaded for that rifle in that pistol, my dad blowed the cylender and arked the fram on a blackhawk . Dont do It!In otherwords, your dad screwed up while reloading.

If he blew up his Blackhawk, he would have blown up his Marlin 1894 if he had shot the same round in it.

rc

Ledhore
December 6, 2010, 12:05 PM
I've got one and love it. Cool thing is that slower powders like 2400 will give a big velocity boost in the longer barrel. Same load in a revolver using slow burn powder will increase up to 400 ft/sec or so in the carbine. Mine also feeds .38 full wadcutters when loaded outside of the case mouth - so quiet with 38's that no ear plugs needed.

I run all of my marlin loads through my GP-100 with no problems - like the man said .357 is .357.

ReloaderFred
December 6, 2010, 12:42 PM
ruger1228,

You can download the owner's manual from the site, if you don't have one.

To remove the bolt, all you have to do is use a proper fitting screwdriver and remove the screw that holds the lever in, and that the lever pivots on. Do this with the bolt partially open, by the way. Remove the lever and then slide the bolt out the rear of the receiver and catch the ejector, as it will sometimes pop out unless you tilt the rifle over on it's left side. You can clean the barrel from the chamber end and not damage the crown, just like a bolt action rifle. You can also clean the action.

When you put it back together, put the ejector back in it's slot, replace the bolt and leave it open about half an inch. Feed the lever up through the bottom of the receiver and you can feel when the top of the lever tang slides into the the slot in the bolt. Once the screw hole in the lever is lined up with the screw hole in the receiver, replace the lever screw. Then work the action and make sure everything works smoothly.

Hope this helps.

Fred

buck460XVR
December 6, 2010, 01:46 PM
Loads that work the best in my .357 and .44 revolvers, also work the best outta my .357 and .44 carbines. Just my experience. One thing I may add is, many reloading manuals recommend using virgin or once fired brass for high power loads in pistol caliber lever actions. This is because of the way levers lock up at the rear and may allow the case to stretch when fired.

Skip_a_roo
December 6, 2010, 02:01 PM
I am well aware that folks use the same load for their handguns as they do their pistol caliber rifles. My load would not be best suited for a handgun. Not because the pressure is too high or anything like that. My rifle load incorporates Lil' Gun as the propellant.

There have been recent occurrences in some of the bigger caliber handguns where Lil' Gun was blamed for excessive frame erosion and barrel fatigue. Mostly because of the barrel/cylinder gap, if I remember correctly.

I choose to use jacketed bullets, 158gr XTP and Lil' Gun in the rifle and my H&G #290BB, 160gr LSWC (Sharpe design) in my M586. Do I need to do that? Maybe yes and maybe no. I don't want to ruin a perfectly good M586 to find out though! ;)

ReloaderFred
December 6, 2010, 03:16 PM
I also use Hodgdon's Lil'Gun in some of my heavy bullet (175 - 185 gr.) loads for my Marlin Carbines, but I don't use it in any of my .357 Magnum handguns. There have been reports of flame cutting of the top strap in revolvers, so as Skip_a_roo pointed out, there's no sense in risking my handguns using it. For handgun loads, I use H-110/Win. 296 or AA-9 for hot loads. For everything else in .38 Special, I use either Bullseye or SR-4756.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Skip_a_roo
December 6, 2010, 03:41 PM
I also have a rifle load for the wife, 158gr LSWC with a Speer #8 load of SR4756 and it delivers 1280fps from the M586 and 1580fps from the rifle. SR4756 is only useful when loaded to older data, in my opinion.

The Marlin 1894 carbine rifle is one of the best platforms for those kinds of loads. It seems to me too that the barrel isn't as big for the caliber like their 44Mag cousins and that makes shooting lead a good/easy thing to do with them in 357Mag.

They shoot jacketed bullets very well too.

ArchAngelCD
December 6, 2010, 05:51 PM
Like Skip and Fred I also use Lil'Gun for my heavy bullet .357 Magnum ammo used in my Carbine. I won't use it in revolver ammo either. I will tell you using Lil'Gun with a 170gr or 180gr bullet give a 100+fps boost over W296/H110 in a long barrel Carbine. according to Hodgdon the pressures are lower too.

Daniel Rando
December 7, 2010, 05:38 AM
Member



Join Date: January 16, 2009
Location: Orange, Texas
Posts: 78 Anything within SAMMI spec for .357 mag is safe for a revolver or rifle so chambered. I have also found as someone already mentioned that RNFP feed better in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy. Mine feeds both 38 special and 357 mag equally well.

If this is so then Why does Hornady reloading book have a specific load for rifle?
and why did my olmans gun blow up in his face.

Skip_a_roo
December 7, 2010, 07:11 AM
Sometimes we don't want to hear the truth. The reason that your Dad's gun blew up in his face is because it was probably his fault. I'm not trying to be mean, don't take it that way but, there is only one individual that was ever perfect, not me or your dad.

If something happens when I am the handloader to the firearm, I am the problem 99% of the time. Either I think I know more than the books written by experts or simply a careless mistake. I hope that your father didn't get seriously injured when this mishap occured.

Any firearm made by any reputable American firearm company will handle SAAMI specification loaded ammo, period. All bets are off when it comes to the "Lorcin's" of this world.

Either a stuck bullet or an overcharge or.............That rifle and handgun will take any SAAMI pressure load you can give it for the caliber, period.

p.s. Look at the data for the rifle very carefully. The amount of powder is probably the same in the 357Mag data for either firearm. The results simply reflect the difference in velocity that one gets from the longer barrel. Check it out.

R.W.Dale
December 7, 2010, 08:08 AM
With 158g bullets using LilGun in my carbines I didn't really see any performance increase over 296/h110 loads. What I did get though was NO accuracy whatsoever, 100fps + ES numbers and A great deal more case head expansion than 296

Honestly I think HOGDGDON needs to reevaluate their LilGun data, I fully predict that in the future you'll see the data cut way back or even pulled.

A couple links sharing lessons learned loading for 357 carbines
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=513183
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=502030

kelbro
December 7, 2010, 10:11 AM
The low end of the Lil Gun load recs (16.0-16.6) shoot just fine in my 1894C. Fast enough and accurate enough. No need to push the envelope in a 125yd rifle. If I want a 35 Whelen, I will buy one :)

ReloaderFred
December 7, 2010, 10:21 AM
Like I posted above, I use Lil'Gun for HEAVY bullets in my .357 Magnum carbines. The lightest bullet I use with that powder is 175 grains, and the heaviest is 185 grains. In that bullet weight range, Lil'Gun boosts the velocity 123 fps on average.

With the 185 grain cast RNFP-GC bullet that I cast and shoot, the maximum load listed for Winchester 296 will get me 1583 fps average. With my load of Lil'Gun, I get an average of 1710 fps. Both loads are very accurate in my carbines, but I prefer the Lil'Gun load since it delivers the accuracy, plus the velocity. The brass doesn't come out of my rifle expanded any more than with Win. 296/H-110. All velocities were measured at 15' over my PACT Professional Chronograph at a mean temperature of 61 degrees at sea level.

That's been my experience with these bullets and powders.

Hope this helps.

Fred

squarles67
December 7, 2010, 11:31 AM
If this is so then Why does Hornady reloading book have a specific load for rifle?
and why did my olmans gun blow up in his face.

As mentioned above the rifle data charge weights are likely similar or the same in the Hornady manual but with the longer barrel of the rifle the velocity is higher. (I don't have a Hornady manual but this is true for Hodgdon data)

As to why your Dad's gun blew up, no way to know without a lot more info.

KosmicKrunch
December 7, 2010, 12:24 PM
I use the same load and bullet for both pistol and rifle, the rifle is a marlin 38/357 and the pistol is a S&W 1926 M&P .38spl. The load is, 158gr LRN (#2 alloy with a 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube), CCI SPP, 4.3gr Universal.

I get very good accuracy in both the pistol and rilfe and neither causes leading. There is enough power in both to "Clank" the metal targets down no matter where I hit them.

I am getting about 988 vel and my OAL is 1.475 in the pistol and about 1100 vel in the rifle, same OAL.

ArchAngelCD
December 8, 2010, 12:23 AM
As I said in Post #11:
The charge weights are the same on the handgun and rifle data. The difference is the velocity numbers. They give you the velocity reading from the longer barrel in the rifle section. Again, the charge weights are the same since the SAAMI pressure limits are the same.
Is there really a reason to continue arguing the issue when the numbers on the Hodgdon site prove it out?

As for Lil'Gun delivering more velocity than W296/H110 with heavy bullets in a Carbine, it absolutely does!
This is the results when fired from a Marlin 1894C w/18.5" barrel:
170gr Sierra JHC bullet
W296 = 1699 fps
Lil'Gun = 1793 fps

180gr Hornady XTP bullet
W296 = 1495 fps
Lil'Gun = 1594 fps

180gr Cast Performance WFNGC bullet
W296 = 1547 fps
Lil'Gun = 1657 fps

LightningMan
December 8, 2010, 07:15 AM
I haven't read all these post yet so I don't know if its been mentioned, but in the old Speer No.#11 manual there's separate data sections for handgun and rifle for some calibers like .357 & .44 mag. LM

rcmodel
December 8, 2010, 11:57 AM
If this is so then Why does Hornady reloading book have a specific load for rifle?
and why did my olmans gun blow up in his face. I sent this to you in an answer to your PM.

Originally PM'd by Daniel Rando
Do you know for a fact that you can reload for rifle outa hornady book then fire in a pistol without any problem? Thanks.

Yes, I do know for a fact any .357 Magnum load listed in any reloading manual is safe in any .357 Mag handgun, or rifle.

There are no seperate SAAMI pressure specs for one or the other. If there were, people would be blowing up guns right & left every day.

The only exception would be the very light lead bullet handgun loads I mentioned in the thread. If fired in a 26" rifle barrel, they "might" not have enough power or velocity to get the bullet out of the barrel. For instance, Hornady lists a 158 grain lead bullet with only 2.5 grains of Clays powder in the Handgun section. They for sure don't list that load in the Rifle section!

In glancing through the Hornady #6 manual, rifle & hangun loads are pretty much the same.
In a few cases, with some powders & lighter bullet weights, it is less in the rifle by 0.1 or 0.2 grains.
This appears to be done to prevent the lighter bullet weights from exceeding bullet design velocity out of the longer barrel of the carbine or rifle, and Not for pressure reasons.

But comparing the heavier 180 grain XTP with 2400 powder?
Pistol max is 12.6 and rifle max is 12.7.

Here we see the simple effect of the testing being done in two different weapons, with two different barrels, on two different days in the lab.


If the gunshow reload blew up a Blackhawk, it most certainly would have blown a Marlin Carbine as well, had it been fired in it.

Most likely, one round in the box of gunshow reloads had a double-charge in it, and it just happened to be in the Blackhawk when it went KaBoom.

rc

Marlin 45 carbine
December 9, 2010, 09:49 AM
can't help with any data just some info.
a shooting buddy has a Marlin .357 lever and loads his own (IIRC blue dot powder) 158gr jsp's that really whack a steel disc at 100 yds. accurate too. he also has a Ruger revolver in .357.

ruger1228
December 9, 2010, 02:22 PM
Thanks for all the help guys. Just shot it for the first time. I used Delta Precision 158gr SWC over 5.4gr Hodgdon Universal. This was what I had loaded up for the BlackHawk.
Shot OK but nothing exceptional on accuracy.
What weight bullet do you thinks shoots best out of this rifle? I am open to any and all information. I do like to stay with Hodgdon Powder and currently have Clays, Universal Clays, HP38, and Titegroup on hand. Bullets I have on hand are 158gr Hornady JHP, 158gr S&S casting RNFP, and Delta Precision 158gr SWC.
Thanks for the help. This gun is a joy to shoot

justashooter in pa
December 9, 2010, 06:52 PM
early marlin 94C in 357 had microgroove hammer forged rifling that does not like cast bullets. it just doesn't grab them well enuf in ordinary alloys. later guns had a ballard style rifling that eats cast lead with the best of them. the cut-off was in the mid 90's, IIRC.

200 grain plain based lead round nose with about 12 grains of WW-296 is as good for heavy game as you're gonna get in this rifle.

kelbro
December 9, 2010, 11:27 PM
158 and 170 gr shoot well in mine.

ReloaderFred
December 15, 2010, 02:13 PM
I shoot cast bullets through all my Marlin carbines, both Micro-Groove and Ballard Cut Rifling. All you have to do is properly size the bullet to the bore. Both types of rifling are capable of very good accuracy, if loaded properly.

The myth of not shooting cast bullets in Micro-Groove barrels resulted from improperly sized bullets for the bores. You can't run a .357" diameter cast bullet through a .359" bore and expect good accuracy or stabilization.

I've never seen a .357 Magnum firearm that didn't shoot better with a heavier bullet than a light one. For my Carbines, I like cast bullets in the 175 gr. to 185 gr. range, though for SASS I use 125 gr. cast bullets with medium charges of Bullseye. This is through both Micro-Groove and Ballard barrels, with all bullets sized .358".

Don't limit your powder choices to one brand, or you'll never achieve the best accuracy. You have to experiment to find what your rifle/pistol combination likes, and what works well in both of them. There will probably be a bit of compromise involved and you'll find a happy medium that works reasonably well in both platforms.

Hope this helps.

Fred

ArchAngelCD
December 16, 2010, 01:31 AM
I have to agree with Fred. My .357 Magnum Carbine shoots better with heavy bullets. It has micro-groove rifling and it shoots 180gr .358" Hard Cast bullets very well. It especially likes 180gr WFNGC bullets from Cast Performance (http://www.castperformance.com/Categories.bok?category=Cast+Performance). Their 160gr bullets without a GC also shoot well but not as well as the heavier bullets.

Mecanik
April 1, 2011, 11:40 AM
I'm looking to create some rifle loads for a .38 special cowboy gun. I've got tons of .38 special brass but almost no .357 brass. I don't want to exceed +P pressures just in case it gets stuffed into a pistol of some sort. But I want to make use of some slower powders to improve the velocity out of a rifle barrel. Any suggestions. Most of the manuals seem to avoid the subject. I know there are .38/.357 duplicate loads out there but I'm not going to exceed .38 +P for any reason. I've almost settled on 8.5 grs of 2400 behind a 158 gr JHP. Any thoughts on that.

zxcvbob
April 1, 2011, 03:53 PM
I'm looking to create some rifle loads for a .38 special cowboy gun. I've got tons of .38 special brass but almost no .357 brass.I've found that I can load a 148 grain DEWC bullet in a .38 Special case to an OAL of about 1.35" and it will cycle just fine in my Marlin, will chamber in any of my .357 Magnum handguns, and will not not chamber in any of my .38 Specials. I have a nice magnum-ish load with this combination for a revolver, using 7.0 grains of WSF powder.

It's almost spring when I can work up a proper carbine load -- Power Pistol looks good on paper but I don't remember how much and I'm not going to guess at it here. (I can check when I get home)

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