Semi Auto VS Wheel Gun Carry as Retired Law Enforcement ???


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David
December 6, 2010, 02:53 PM
Quick question .........

HR 218/S 1132 says to national carry as Retired Law Enforcement you must meet the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training, as established by the State, to carry a firearm of the same TYPE as the concealed firearm.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s111-1132

In my state, it is the SAME active duty standards firearms qualification course for BOTH semi-autos AND wheel guns (i.e. BOTH semi-autos AND wheel guns have the SAME required course of fire to qualify).

My question is .........

Under HR 218/S 1132 as Retired Law Enforcement, if I just successfully complete the state firearms course with just my semi-auto, can I ALSO carry a wheel gun as well, since BOTH have the SAME state qualification course requirements ?????????

Thanks .........

:) :D :)

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gunnutery
December 6, 2010, 05:56 PM
(B) paragraph (2)--

(i) in subparagraph (A), by striking ‘retired’ and inserting ‘separated’; and

(ii) in subparagraph (B), by striking ‘that indicates’ and all that follows through the period and inserting ‘or by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State that indicates that the individual has, not less than 1 year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State or a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State to have met--

‘(I) the active duty standards for qualification in firearms training, as established by the State, to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or

‘(II) if the State has not established such standards, standards set by any law enforcement agency within that State to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.’; and


I added bold lettering to the sections that probably apply here. It's somewhat difficult to read since in the form you posted by linking, it should be read side by side to the previous bill. But based on your link, I would say you need to qualify with a revolver.

I qualify with a revolver, however, the instructor only counts my actuall shooting time and not the reloading time since I don't have any speed loaders.

scaatylobo
December 6, 2010, 08:45 PM
I have to have the instructor mark a card with the guns I qual with and then I only carry those interstate [ B.S.,in my not so humble opinion ].

The easiest way is to get your I.D. card marked by an agency as "section 926B of title 18 USC qualified"

Or "H.R. 218 qualified" if you can get that done after qualing with any handgun.

dogrunner
December 7, 2010, 12:09 AM
To simply avoid that very issue I qualify with BOTH. That said, when you get down to the subjective "type" issue then that might be something of a problematic matter. As an example of the latter, while I qualify with my antique M/19 and a nearly as dated 645 I also carry a variety of both "types", ranging from a dao .32 auto to that old NAA .22 that rode in my uniform shirt pocket for well over twenty years..........raises the question as to if I've qualified with both types........little relationship to the qualifiers other than the descriptive.......would I have an issue? Not in state, but perhaps the matter might raise some question in some jurisdictions. Besides, given Florida's inane qualification course it is IMPOSSIBLE to qualify with a deep cover hide out like that NAA, that said, I truly believe it would be possible to successfully run that course of fire blindfolded once oriented toward the target...........dumbest damned course of fire I have ever seen, and I was a state qualified PFTO, NRA R/S/P instructor as well as a competitive hi power shooter when in the military.

Frankly, I don't worry about it and I'll continue to pack what I want when and where I want!

David
December 7, 2010, 12:35 AM
Thanks for the replies .........

I did my firearms qualification at a law enforcement agency range, and on the state-issued HR 218/S 1132 firearms qualification card I received, it states the exact firearm on which I qualified (in my case a full-sized Beretta semi-auto that I used to carry on-duty).

When I carry under HR 218/S 1132 as Retired Law Enforcement, I think I will likely pocket carry a smaller semi-auto (such as a .32 or .380).

However, sometimes I like to carry a .38 snubby.

The way I undestand it is, under HR 218/S 1132, the TYPE of firearm means either semi-auto or revolver, and NOT the specific gun you will carry.

I think if that was the intention of the law, it would state simply that you must qualify on the EXACT gun you will carry, as opposed to the TYPE of firearm you will carry ... imho.

That is why I am asking this question in reference to semi-autos vs revolvers.

Any THR members who carry under HR 218/S 1132 ......... or lawyer folks ......... please feel free to offer your opinions on this issue, or please provide a link to where such answers may be found.

Again, thanks .........

:D :scrutiny: :D

rscalzo
December 7, 2010, 12:46 AM
NH issues certification on the specific firearm used in qualification. Only that firearm is permissible under the LEOSA. A record is maintained at the agency proforming the qualification and at the state level.

NJ allowed waiving a separate qualification if the firearm was essentially similar. While it is open to interpretation, we felt it was applicable to the 659 or 559, 669/6906. it was up to the agency but I never permitted it and mandated each firearm used would be qualified with prior to any on or off duty use.

SA to revolver....Doubt it in my opinion. Might be pushing it and i'm not taking the chance.

gunnutery
December 7, 2010, 08:44 AM
I think if that was the intention of the law, it would state simply that you must qualify on the EXACT gun you will carry, as opposed to the TYPE of firearm you will carry ... imho.

I agree with you, but some other law enforcement agency or district attorney might see it the other way (such as NH). My agency card says "certified to carry weapons under the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act. US Title 18, 44 Section 926B."

GRIZ22
December 7, 2010, 02:28 PM
can I ALSO carry a wheel gun as well, since BOTH have the SAME state qualification course requirements ?????????


LEOSA says:

to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or


Semi autos and revolvers don't seem to be the same type. I qualify retired LEOs for their state carry permit. The qualification is the same state standard used for all state LE agencies so it works for LEOSA. There are two courses of fire one for 5 shot revolvers and one for everything else. Those that carry revolvers and autos qual with both. Because the qual course is the same doesn't make a revolver and semi auto "the same type". I say you need to qualify with both revolver and semi auto to be covered under LEOSA.

I go a little further and qual with a revolver, 1911 (SA auto), and Glock (DA auto according to ATFE) to cover myself as much as possible.

dogrunner
December 7, 2010, 02:49 PM
Well, I part company relative to any State being able to add a more restrictive aspect that essentially changes the clear intent of a Federal law. The operative phrasing in LEOSA is the word "TYPE"...........Neither NH nor NJ can arbitrarily modify that descriptive and therefore cannot limit a qualified officer (active or retired) from carrying ANY revolver type or SA type that he's met his State's qualification course with. Yeah, a qualifying officer might be subject to disciplinary action if still active, might be refused further qualifying opportunity if retired, he might even be refused the required ID.............but he could NOT be prosecuted successfully for not packing that Glock while he preferred and carried his S&W.....NH and NJ DON'T have that option!

Suggest contributors to this thread check out PoliceMag.Com for some interesting discussion on this very issue.

fastbolt
December 7, 2010, 02:59 PM
My former agency presently allows two specific weapons to be listed on the issued LEOSA qualification document I carry. This allows for 2 types of weapons, such as a revolver and a semiauto pistol, to be listed.

Since I can't know how the local LE in any particular state I visit may interpret and enforce LEOSA's provisions, I've qualified with both a semiauto pistol and a revolver and I carry the ones listed by serial number in the LEOSA qualification document when I travel out-of-state.

David
December 8, 2010, 02:48 AM
Wow ......... now I'm REALLY, REALLY confused .........

How can any state decide what the word "TYPE" means in HR 218/S 1132 ???

I thought that was the whole purpose of this law is to have LE and Retired LE carry their CCW under FEDERAL LAW, and NOT state law.

In my situation, I did my firearms qualification at a law enforcement agency range, and on the state-issued HR 218/S 1132 firearms qualification card I received, it states the exact firearm, including the serial number, on which I qualified (in my case a full-sized Beretta semi-auto that I used to carry on-duty).

When I carry under HR 218/S 1132 as Retired Law Enforcement, I think I will likely pocket carry a smaller semi-auto (such as a .32 or .380), and since a full-size Beretta is the SAME TYPE of firearm as a smaller Semi-Auto, I think this state-issued qualification card should be okay under HR 218/S 1132 ... right ???

I hope the FOP, PBA, etc. would issue some insight on these important issues.

I don't think anyone would want to be packing in NYC, for example, under HR 218/S 1132 and have a little "misunderstanding" with the NYPD and perhaps be arrested over this nonsense while acting in "good faith" while trying to follow this law .........

Any lawyers out there that can help us with these issues ?????????

We all want to do the right thing and properly follow HR 218/S 1132 ......... thanks .........

:confused: :what: :confused:

GRIZ22
December 8, 2010, 12:27 PM
NJ allowed waiving a separate qualification if the firearm was essentially similar.

rscalzo, this is when you were still with the police dept in NJ? Before you retired?

Rexster
December 8, 2010, 07:06 PM
Regarding: "Any lawyers out there that can help us with these issues ?????????"

Don't trust a online forum, with anonymous membership, for legal advice, folks! The guy claiming to be an attorney could be a 13-year-old typing on his mom's computer.

That being said, the consensus in my corner of Texas is that "type" means either revolver or autopistol. The preceding sentence is NOT legal advice, and only really matters if I happen to be the LEO making the decision at the particular, relevant moment in time!

My PD will allow a retired LEO to qual with as many weapons as he wants to drag to the range. For good measure, when I retire, I will probably qual with one of each model, to be on the safe side.

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