'58 Remington Timing


PDA






Shoot The Moon
December 6, 2010, 06:46 PM
Gents, (apologies if this has been covered before, I ran two searches to no avail) I've been examining my Euroarms Remington and have noticed that the cylinder stop (bolt if you prefer) is raising quite early. This does not affect the function of the revolver but does not seem correct and it is marring the cylinder.

I'm interested in other folks opinion on this - should I try to correct it or is it of no consequence? If I should try to correct the timing, how? Looking at the action it's not immediately obvious, although at a guess, the hand is too short?

Any advice welcome!

If you enjoyed reading about "'58 Remington Timing" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
georgi
December 6, 2010, 06:57 PM
I came across this bit recently ==? http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=16668.0;wap2

'seems to be 'normal' for the '58 remmies...

cheers
-g

BCRider
December 7, 2010, 11:21 PM
The hand can't be too short and still index the cylinder to where it needs to go. If the bolt is coming up early and rubbing the cylinder than it is because the stuff that pulls it down and holds it there is letting go too early.

I'd like to help more but at the moment the geometry of the system isn't clear in my mind but I do know that this is where you need to fiddle around and not with the hand.

Shoot The Moon
December 8, 2010, 04:01 PM
The hand can't be too short and still index the cylinder to where it needs to go. If the bolt is coming up early and rubbing the cylinder than it is because the stuff that pulls it down and holds it there is letting go too early.

I'd like to help more but at the moment the geometry of the system isn't clear in my mind but I do know that this is where you need to fiddle around and not with the hand.
You are of course, quite right... I hadn't thought of that but thankfully one of the few things I have managed to overcome since my younger years is the compulsion to 'file first and ask questions later' :) I guess there's a cam on the hammer like the Colt - better get searching again then.

Jaymo
December 8, 2010, 07:52 PM
Yep, there's a cam on the hammer. At least, there was on my 2 Pietta Remmies.

rcflint
December 9, 2010, 04:50 PM
Check the wings on the bolt, they should be at least parallel, not squeezing closer together at the rear. A little tweaking so that the wing that rides the cam is a bit outward to press harder on the hammer's cam will drop a bit later, if it has been dropping off the cam too early.

Shoot The Moon
December 9, 2010, 05:09 PM
Thanks for the tip - I guess that the wings are tempered - hence there's a risk of breaking them.. do you have any advice on this?

Maybe I should buy a spare bolt..

junkman_01
December 9, 2010, 05:16 PM
I guess that the wings are tempered

Haha, don't make me laugh! The internal parts of most repro c&b revolvers are quite soft. That's why they get out of time so easily.

Shoot The Moon
December 9, 2010, 06:12 PM
Haha, don't make me laugh! The internal parts of most repro c&b revolvers are quite soft. That's why they get out of time so easily.
Well, it didn't snap... but the bolt still comes up way too early. The revolver functions acceptably and the cylinder is in the white so the mark the bolt leaves is barely noticeable, so just I'm going to keep shooting it (once it's been officially given to me for Christmas :) ) and then I'll order a new bolt and a new trigger/bolt spring. I'll see if a bolt with slightly longer legs addresses the problem. If not, I think it's 'Hammer Time'.....

Thanks again for the suggestions!

denster
December 10, 2010, 01:30 AM
You never mentioned how early the bolt is rising. It should contact the cylinder just before the leading edge of the bolt reaches the cylinder notch. Earlier than this and a bolt with a slightly longer leg may be called for. As to the hardening and tempering of internal parts. You are correct that the bolt is tempered to a spring temper. Actually the internal parts of Pietta, Uberti and Euroarms are all correctly heat treated. That is the parts that are supposed to be hard are hard, those that are supposed to be soft are soft, relatively speaking, and those that are tempered are to the correct degree. The complaint of Italian repos having soft internals had some merit a 15 or so years ago but not now.

rcflint
December 10, 2010, 01:39 AM
The Italian bolts won't break as long as you are reasonable with prying the wing with a flat blade. A real Colt SAA bolt WILL break if tweaked. Don't ask me how I know.............

rdstrain49
December 10, 2010, 02:15 AM
rcflint;

How do you know? :)

denster
December 10, 2010, 02:32 AM
Actually bending a spring that has taken a set in the direction of the set is not a good idea. If it doesn't break the effect of the bend won't last long and it will go back to where it was. The correct way to do it is to heat the part to a dull red and bury it in sand or something to allow it to cool slowely. This anneals it and it can then be safely bent. Then harden the part and draw it back to a spring temper and it should be good to go.

BHP FAN
December 10, 2010, 11:31 AM
Tighten the trigger spring screw.

rcflint
December 10, 2010, 02:11 PM
The cam on the hammer may be worn, and that can have the same effect as the bolt itself wearing. Unfortunately, the Italians don't make the cam as a separate pressed in part, so must be repaired by replacing the whole hammer, or drilling out the cam and replacing it with a new cam. (Dixie Gun Works has them in a couple of sizes) A carefully welded cam can be reshaped, but it's difficult as there is not much room to work with files, and knowing where the corners should be is lost in the ball of weld.

If a new bolt is sufficiently oversized, it can be fitted after cleaning up the cam edges and surfaces to get rid of the rounded off areas.

Shoot The Moon
December 11, 2010, 02:15 PM
Thankyou for all the comments - I actually ordered a replacement bolt yesterday - they're about 9 here in the UK so not expensive. I can also get a replacement hammer for 28 so although I hope the new bolt will do it, if the cam is worn (not removed the hammer yet) it's still an economical repair, especially as it's a great looking revolver with good patina and the best trigger I have ever felt on a cap & ball revolver. As you may have seen on my earlier post, this gun is a Christmas present from my wife, so I am not allowed to shoot it till Christmas... our range is closed on the 25th but expect a range report on the 27th!

Thanks again for all the tips and info. Much appreciated.

mykeal
December 11, 2010, 05:09 PM
If you replace the hammer that 'best trigger I have ever felt on a cap & ball revolver' will very likely go away.

Shoot The Moon
December 11, 2010, 06:49 PM
If you replace the hammer that 'best trigger I have ever felt on a cap & ball revolver' will very likely go away.
Ah. You make a good point.. I forgot that rather important fact. Hopefully the longer bolt will fix things, or at least improve matters. I have spent part of this evening looking at originals on the web and most appear to have a witness mark round the cylinder where the bolt has been dragging, so I guess it's common (per georgi's reply here). The trigger is really good, so it would be a real shame to lose that.

OYE
December 11, 2010, 07:29 PM
Here's an old post from "Rifle" (it's the best explanation of how to time a revolver that I've ever heard) :

The way I see it....the gun should function properly no matter how fast or slow you cock it. A properly tuned single action should be....when the hammer is pulled the bolt actuates ahead of the hand so the bolt gets out of the cylinder notch before the hand moves it so the bolt doesn't bind on the notch edge when the cylinder turns. A bolt that barely rubs the notch edge as the cylinder turns and affects only the bluing can surfice. Any metal removed from the notch edge by the bolt as the hand turns the cylinder is BAD. So first the bolt needs to get out of the notch before the hand turns the cylinder.At the other end of the action cycle...at the end.....the hand should be able to overrotate the cylinder a little past the bolts head. That will account for some wear to the hands tip or the cylinders index ratchets. The bolt stops the action from working any further by stopping the cylinder. The cylinder stops the hand. At this point with the hand putting a small amount of pressure on the ratchet tooth at the rear of the cylinder is good. Finely tuned can be,at this point,with the hand against the ratchet tooth of the cylinder but be against the tooth with no pressure or play(looseness). At the very end of the action cycle the trigger should "snick" into the full cock notch on the tumbler(hammer) simultaneously as the bolt "snicks" into the cylinders notch. The trigger and the bolt making two snicks at the end of the cycle should sound like one snick. Like the "cap&baller" has three "snicks" to the action instead of four.Anyway to test a single actions action like the "cap&ballers" the very slow working of it should be a proper action cycle. Slowly,very slow, work the action and the bolt moves just after the hammer moves. The "just after" the hammer moves is to allow a little play that will account for "blow back" if the gas can emmit enough pressure to move the hammer backwards a small amount. You don't want the bolt too close to the hammer cam since then the hammer getting some pressure from blow back(thru the nipple) can un-index the action and let the bolt be released from the cylinder notch as the gun fires. Not good for accuracy.After the bolt is out of the cylinder notch as the hammer is moved backwards the hand moves the cylinder and after some rotation of the cylinder the trigger hits(snick) into the half cock notch on the hammer and a little later as the cylinder rotates the bolts leg riding the cam slides off the hammers cam. The "snick" is of the bolt hitting the cylinder close to the cylinders notch edge....hopefully with a full bolt head width next to the cylinders notch and not any bolt head hanging over the notch edge any at all. A little hang over won't hurt if the bolts spring isn't too stiff. Don't want the bolt to peen down that important edge. The metal of the cap&ballers cylinder being rather soft.The next two clicks which are the trigger hitting into the hammers full cock and the bolt snicking into the cylinders notch should happen simultaneously. The trigger can snick into the hammers notch a little before the bolt snicks into the cylinder notch and that won't hurt anything if the triggers "snick" is before and close to the last snick which is the bolt going into the cylinder notch which stops the action cycle.At the end the hand should be against the cylinders ratchet with a little pressure. That accounts for the slop in the fit of the hammers screw and the trigger on it's screw ect.ect. The parts can move on the screws a little since they aren't a perfect fit with no looseness as the action stops. You want the hand next to the cylinders ratchet but if the alignment of the chambers to the bore show that the "little pressre" causes misalignment of the chambers to the bore you take the pressure off the hand by a little stoning. Hopefully before all the action work first the bolt was fit to the cylinder notch with no slop and fit to the frames bolt window with no slop as the chambers are aligned to the grooves of the barrel. That can cause some tricks of the trade to be used to get the bolt snug in the frames bolt window and snug in the cylinders notch as the chambers are aligned to the groove diameter in the barrel. That "snug" is good for accuracy and makes a good action by getting rid of some slop.Tricks of the trade are used all the way thru the action cycle to "time" the parts. Example....getting the bolt leg just right to slide off the hammers cam to get the bolt head to hit the cylinder in the right place. Adjust the triggers length to time the "full cock" snick to the bolts entering the cylinder notch "snick". Getting the bolts leg close enough to the hammers cam to actuate the bolts movement before the hand can touch the index ratchet tooth behind the cylinder.That is done usually by stoning or diamond filing the bolts bottom surface(when the gun is upside down and open to see in the "parts bin". That gets the bolts head further up into the frame window which can mean it gets too far into the window and needs the head adjusted so it just gets to the bottom of the cylinder notch as the bottom surface of the bolt is against the frame.....looking into the upside down open frame. It's just that the bolt is like a "teeter totter" like in the kids play ground. When one side (the screw thru the bolt is like the fulcrum)goes up the other goes down or visa versa. So if the bolts head is made to go into the frame window more then the bolts leg on the other end moves closer to the hammers cam. I might add....the main spring tension of a cap&baller should be a good bit stiffer than a cartridge single action so the bolts leg can be close to the hammers cam(even ride the cam so that any movement of the hammer moves the bolt). The blow back thru the nipples can move the hammer some if the mainspring tension is too slack. Too weak. The nipples holes have to be watched too tell when they need replaced. A finely tuned cap&baller ends up with closer specs and the nipples holes are some of those specs. The hands length is a closer spec too. If the gun is timed so the action stops "dead solid" then a little wear of the hands length can cause the hand to get too short and not rotate the cylinder far enough to get locked into battery. That's the subject of this post isn't it? Anyway a properly or finely tuned cap&baller should be able to be worked as slow as molasses in the winter time and work perfectly. Then you know when the action is worked faster it works properly also. You have to work it slow as you tune to check things. Onr thing I don't know if it has been mentioned about the hand. The corner at the tip(the right hand corner looking at the gun from the front) of the hand needs ground off at an angle so it doesn't hit and drag "or stop" against the curve of the opening. Sometimes a hand ins't too short but hits the frame and stops. The left side of the hand tip(looking from the front) is the edge that works the cylinder around to fruition. That edge is the important one...the one to be the exact length. The one that helps stop the hammer at the end of the action so there's a "dead stop" to the action. Everyone likes the "dead hard stop" at the end. makes the action feel as it's timed and indexed properly. Actually it would be proper. You want the hand against the ratchet tooth of the cylinder when the bolts in the cylinder notch locked into battery when the trigger is in the full cock of the hammer. The dead stop is the bolt stopping the cylinder when the cylinder notch one edge hits the bolt. That one edge takes a beating as does the bolts side of it's head. There has to be a good snug fit to the bolt in the frame window and hopefully a bolt that's snug to it's screw so when the bolt hits the cylinder the bolt can't tilt and expose an angled surface to the cylinder to hit. That can let the spring tension of the bolts spring give way and let the bolt be pushed into the frame window under the force of the cylinder hitting it. Lets the cylinder over rotate and damages the cylinders most important notch edge. Damages the side of thge cylinder notch that hits the bolt to stop the heavy cylinder full of powder and "lead".If you have to work the action of the gun faster to get it to work then.....it works. If you want it to be proper then you shouldn't have to work it fast. You should be able to work it as slow as you possibly can. That's how you check the timing and all. Some people say that if the action parts are against each other,like the hand agaist the cylinders ratchet tooth and the cylinder against the bolt then the parts wear under the pressure of the tension bearing against one another. Well.....that's too vague. You have to consider the amount of pressure the parts have against one another. It shouldn't be a lot. Just enough to have the action to stop solidly at the end. The pressure can be almost nothing if the parts are tuned properly. Some like the solid stop at the end of the action when the hammer stops dead against the backstrap. That can be nice. It gives you the feeling that the hammer against the backstrap takes the pressure. It does if the pressure of the other parts is minimized. A little wear to the hand and that action can end up with the under rotation this post is about. A new hand would need to be put in that action if the hand sustains a little wear. That's the problem with the "hammer hits the backstrap and stops the action" type tune up. A new hand more often. I've done the "hammers stops against the backstrap" for people that ask for it. There are occaisions where the backstrap is so far from the hammer when the hammers all the way back in the firing mode that another backstrap needs fitted or a tedious weld job and refinish needs done. On some guns like that I'd say it isn't worth the effort to get the hammer to stop the action against the backstrap. I'd say a gun like that would just need the hand against the ratchet of the cylinder and the bolt in the cylinders notch to stop the action "dead solid". Ther thickness of the hand is important since you want the hand to be against the cylinders ratchet tooth but be stopped solidly by the frame trapping it on that side. The hand stops against the ratchet on one side and against the frame on the other side. Most of the time peole don't mess with that since a lot of the time a new hand has to be made thicker to do that. It does help the "solid stop" at the end of the action cycle if the hand is trapped against the frame on one side and the ratchet on the other when the bolt is stopped in the cylinders notch. You don't want that little bit of overdraw to the hammer at the very end of the cycle. A tiny bit isn't too noticable but more than a tiny bit feels yucky. The hammer goes all the way back and then goes forward a little when it's let go. It's nicer to have the hammer go back and stop and stay right there and not go forward at all. Nice solid stop at the end of the cycle.Hope I didn't mis-type too many things. Hope this helps the cause. The "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" cause. Last edited by rifle; Today at 07:52 AM.

If you enjoyed reading about "'58 Remington Timing" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!