Which more likely - pump short stroke or semi malfunction?


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70extreme
December 8, 2010, 12:08 PM
Let say you took two equally well trained people:

One with a Remington 870 HD
One with a Benelli M2 or FN SLP Mark 1

You wake them up at 2:00am and add the dynamic deadly stress of a home invasion.

Which is more likely to occur? The semi auto malfunctioning or the pump guy short shucking his 870?

To me, this is the essence of the pump vs. semi auto debate.

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krazykeny
December 8, 2010, 12:11 PM
The semi-auto would be less dependable.
The same reason many choose a revolver rather than a semi-auto pistol.



.

rcmodel
December 8, 2010, 12:32 PM
The semi-auto would be less dependable.That must be the reason every military in the world uses semi-auto/full auto weapons then?

Personally, I have been able to short-stroke a pump more then once in a cramped duck blind.

I do have an A-5 Browning semi-auto I have hunted with in every conceivable weather condition for 40 years.
It has never failed to function perfectly, even once.

Todays semi-auto shotguns from any of several quality name brand manufactures are so reliable as it to be a non-issue in selecting one action type over another.

Pick the one you want, feed it good quality ammo, clean it occasionally, and it will work.

rc

OregonJohnny
December 8, 2010, 12:51 PM
I have used a Remington 870 Express 12 gauge of 1 flavor or another for almost 20 years, as well as a Browning Silver Hunter 12 gauge (semi-auto) for the last 5 years.

In thousands of rounds with both guns, the Browning has never malfunctioned, and I've short-stroked the 870 exactly 2 times, and that was in the same string of shooting a mag tube full of 3" slugs. And that was with a brand-new 870 Marine, not a well-worn old slicked-up 870.

So I have a lot of confidence in well-made semi-autos, as well as my abilities with an 870. But the 870 is my primary go-to shotgun. I can run it with my eyes closed. If a semi-auto malfunctions in some way, how likely are you to fix the problem quickly? If you short-stroke the pump and get a "click", just pump it again (harder this time) and that should fix the problem. Sort of like pulling the trigger again on a revolver to rotate to the next round, versus "tap, rack, bang" on a semi-auto handgun.

A short-stroke is 100% a user error. Practice, familiarity with the gun, and thousands of rounds cycled through the action should greatly reduce the chances of this happening. As Lee Lapin said in another post, "shoot it till you know it like your tongue knows your teeth".

hardworker
December 8, 2010, 12:58 PM
not trusting a modern semi is like not trusting a glock. you may not like them, but the writing is on the wall. they work. the notion that a modern semi isn't as reliable as a pump needs to die.

waterhouse
December 8, 2010, 01:05 PM
If I had to bet, I'd say the semi will do better than the pump. Given a well trained individual it likely won't be an issue either way, but with a less well trained individual I've seen a lot more short stroking of pumps than I've seen reliability issues with modern semis.

Youngster
December 8, 2010, 01:25 PM
I'd go with the semi, I've seen a LOT more pumps short stroked than semis jam, and most of the time clearing a semi stoppage was just a matter of cycling the bolt.

IMO pumps only have a reliability advantage over a quality modern semi when you're talking about long periods without cleaning or harsh environmental exposure.

9mmepiphany
December 8, 2010, 02:07 PM
Let say you took two equally well trained people:

One with a Remington 870 HD
One with a Benelli M2 or FN SLP Mark 1

During my career in LE, my constant companion when working in Patrol was a Remington 870. I even bought my personal 870 (surplus Seattle PD gun) so that I could tweak it to work best for my situation. It wouldn't have been my personal first choice....I like the Ithaca 37 better and thought the S&W a better choice also.

When I retired, I sold the 870 to a young high speed/low drag guy coming out of the academy and went looking for a semi-auto for myself. After a lot of research, I settled on the FN SLP (the shorter one with the ghost ring sights).

It has been my experience, in LE and teaching, that the semi-auto is less likely to malfunction in the hands of most shooters. While the pump action shotgun is very simple (only surpassed by the S/S or O/U), it has a steep learning curve...especially when used at speed or under any kind of stress. With training and a lot of practice, the ability of a shooter to reliably run a pump action shotgun will equal that of the semi-auto shooter. With skill and natural talent, I've seen a pump action run faster than a semi-auto...but that would be a level I have neither the time nor talent to attain.

FWIW: between the 870 and the SLP, I felt very secure with my Rossi SxS with exposed hammers and dual triggers

huntsman
December 8, 2010, 02:33 PM
Which is more likely to occur? The semi auto malfunctioning or the pump guy short shucking his 870?

I'd say there’s a greater chance of human error over mechanical failure, as long as the semi is of reasonable quality.

JNewell
December 8, 2010, 02:47 PM
This:

The semi-auto would be less dependable.

might or might not be true, but it doesn't begin to answer the question.

You have to ask: how dependable is the operator? I have seen far more short-shucked pumps than malf'ing semis in training classes.

JNewell
December 8, 2010, 02:48 PM
FWIW: between the 870 and the SLP, I felt very secure with my Rossi SxS with exposed hammers and dual triggers

If I were standing between an 870 and an SLP, as long as they were pointed at the threat and not at me, I'd feel secure enough to put down the Rossi and have a smoke! ;) :D

jmr40
December 8, 2010, 02:50 PM
The semi auto will be more dependable in this situation. The pump would be more likely to work abused, or with dirty or out of spec ammo.

Zak Smith
December 8, 2010, 02:55 PM
Eight years shooting and administering 3-Gun competition tells me that even a practiced shooter will cause malfunctions in a pump more often than a M1/2S90 will malfunction.

Uniquedot
December 8, 2010, 03:36 PM
I have been shooting pump guns for over thirty years, and i have never short stroked any of them. I have never had a pump gun fail in the field, but have had auto's jam on several occasions. Even temperatures can affect a load enough to cause it to jam in a semi. Whenever you ask questions on these forums you are bound to get plenty of replies from people that don't know squat about a shotgun other than what they have heard from someone else who didn't know squat about shotguns. A pump gun is the most dependable of the two in that it alone will digest any load with no regard to temperature or other conditions. By the way i have never, ever seen a companion short stroke a pump in the field either regardless of what we were hunting ...also in over thirty years. I guess some people just don't know enough about manual repeaters to manipulate them.

huntsman
December 8, 2010, 04:06 PM
I have been shooting pump guns for over thirty years, and i have never short stroked any of them. I have never had a pump gun fail in the field, but have had auto's jam on several occasions. Even temperatures can affect a load enough to cause it to jam in a semi.

Gas operated? Fatal flaw, counting on a gas system is as bad as using manpower to cycle a shotgun.

mgkdrgn
December 8, 2010, 04:21 PM
hmmmm, what is more likely ... human error or mechanical error?

I'd vote "human error" every time, unless you are talking about some really gawd aweful mechanical system ... and then it's still human error on the part of the boob that designed (or maintained) it.

Uniquedot
December 8, 2010, 05:27 PM
Gas operated?

Gas and recoil operated. I have learned a lot about guns while hunting. I have had semi autos that would not cycle certain ammo under certain conditions, and on several occasions over the years i have had them fail to cycle due to small limbs brushing the cocking lever/bolt. I think of these things when thinking about sd guns. What if under certain circumstances a curtain caused a jam? or perhaps a coat hanging on a rack? Some might ask "but what if your in a position that does not allow easy manipulation of the slide? To that i would say "hey i am the one with the shotgun! i won't be hiding in the closet." The pump is the better gun.

counting on a gas system is as bad as using manpower to cycle a shotgun

Again, in over thirty years i have never short cycled a shotgun nor have i ever witnessed it. I could not count the number of shotgunners i have hunted with over the years. I had to search the net to find people whom have done this, and what i found was people (mainly kids) that are not familiar with shotguns or guns at all. Even when learning to shoot as a kid i never experienced this practice. To any one that thinks this would be a problem i would say they just need to learn how to shoot and use a firearm properly.

Zak Smith
December 8, 2010, 07:53 PM
To see evidence to the contrary, one only has to show up to a few 3-Gun matches where people are shooting pumps.

Justin
December 8, 2010, 08:16 PM
I, too, have seen competitors at 3gun matches short-stroke pump shotguns. It happens.

Yeah, semi-autos can be more finicky and prone to jamming but only if you don't do your due diligence and function test the ammunition you plan to use ahead of time.

Uniquedot
December 8, 2010, 08:20 PM
To see evidence to the contrary, one only has to show up to a few 3-Gun matches where people are shooting pumps.

I suppose when one is playing games, and changing actions...one could get confused.

Uniquedot
December 8, 2010, 08:28 PM
Yeah, semi-autos can be more finicky and prone to jamming but only if you don't do your due diligence and function test the ammunition you plan to use ahead of time.

The problem with this is that some folks don't or wont realize that the ammo they tested on a cool September day might not cycle the action on a freezing cold January night. I will say that with buckshot and slugs i have never had a failure to cycle due to temperature, but some folks actually buy that cheap bird shot and plan to use it for home defense.

Zak Smith
December 8, 2010, 08:41 PM
I suppose when one is playing games, and changing actions...one could get confused.
Not sure what you mean exactly-- "changing actions" ? You compete with a shotgun, a rifle, and a pistol. If shooting regularly with the two other main types of handheld weapons is going to screw up the ability to operate a pump shotgun properly, that's a pretty good argument against them.

Is there a vague slam against competition in there too? I have guys who bring their "Hunt'n" shotgun to matches and they regularly have problems. And the guys who said, "It worked just fine last weekend when I shot five rounds." Shooting high round count stages under stress exposes training and equipment faults much more readily than recreational shooting and hunting.

70extreme
December 8, 2010, 08:57 PM
Zak makes excellent points. Under the stress of competition, pump guns see more failure. He has the experience from his years of observing probably hundreds and hundreds of shooters. It is logical to assume that the pressure of real life or death situations would increase this stress. Therefore, one could assume an equal or greater amount of malfunctions with a pump.

Although speed isn't my main concern, I don't agree with those who say the pump gun is faster. It just doesn't square with measurable reality. Proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2QPvuEk5dg


It is settled in my mind. In my opinion, a human being under deadly stress will havd a greater likelihood of failure with a pump than with a properly maintained M1/M2/FN SLP with proper ammo.

Uniquedot
December 8, 2010, 09:01 PM
Is there a vague slam against competition in there too?

No, didn't mean for it to sound that way. I enjoy busting clays (or playing shotgun games) but i mainly use shotguns for hunting, and never competed. I just don't see how someone familiar with any self manipulated action could short cycle it unless there is some confusion when using different guns, but again i never have, and have never been in the company of one whom has.

In my experiences the pump is the most reliable of the two. I am also one whom thinks the revolver is more reliable than the semi auto pistol, but still i carry an semi for the same reason the military does...capacity.

Jason_W
December 8, 2010, 09:28 PM
It's odd that some people short stroke a pump under stress. I tend to work actions harder when I'm fired up. Not saying it doesn't happen, just seems odd. Is it a matter of fatigue occurring after the first shot of adrenalin wears off?

The reliability debate of pump v. auto will probably go on forever. I'm sure a top end auto is probably as reliable as a pump gun, but those top end autos are pricey. I can buy a good pump for half (less) the cost of a good auto. I'm not convinced on staking my life on a $500-$600 auto.

Also, I like how a pump will cycle anything I feed it. Even if I want to use 2" loads to pack more in a mag. I also know a pump will still fire after I tumble headfirst down a muddy hill (which has happened more than I'm proud of).

Odd Job
December 8, 2010, 09:39 PM
A few years ago I did a two day shotgun course in South Africa with 12 gauge pumps. Everything was nice on the individual drills, stoppages, pointing etc.
But...when there were targets to be had in "shoot-house" I had a short cycle. It happened when I entered a room and saw two targets. Shot the first and then immediately short cycled.
And that was on day one, where every other session had been fine. I'm guessing this must happen more often in actual situations where people face real bodily harm.

If I am ever in a position to get a shotgun for home defense, it will be a semi.

Uniquedot
December 8, 2010, 09:42 PM
Although speed isn't my main concern, I don't agree with those who say the pump gun is faster. It just doesn't square with measurable reality. Proof:


Have you seen Patrick shooting a pump? Not quite as fast, but pretty darned fast! I don't think the argument is whether or not a pump can be fired faster than a gas operated semi, but rather most folks claim they have fewer misses due to getting on target at the end of manipulation. Those folks are simply more used to shooting pumps. I can shoot a semi auto faster, but they are not as reliable.

Odd Job
December 8, 2010, 09:46 PM
It's odd that some people short stroke a pump under stress. I tend to work actions harder when I'm fired up. Not saying it doesn't happen, just seems odd. Is it a matter of fatigue occurring after the first shot of adrenalin wears off?


For me, it was simply a matter of trying to do it too quickly. Brain fires off two intructions in quick succession, which is:

1) Pull that
2) Push that

And do it quick, cos there is a second target!! Did not complete the execution of number 1 before starting number 2.
Must be similar to what happens with cricket players. The ball comes in and the keeper has to catch it and THEN hit the stumps. Many times you see the guy take a grab at the ball, not catch it securely and then hit the stumps with no ball in hand. I suspect that is the same root cause. Maybe to a lesser extent, relay race runners setting off, having dropped the baton.

Zak Smith
December 8, 2010, 10:47 PM
I wouldn't say short cycling exactly is the main problem, though manual cycling is the main cause of the problems. More common than short cycling, in my experience, are:

1. forgetting to cycling the action, or cycling it at the wrong time, especially during loading and loading an empty gnu

2. not exactly short cycling, but first an abbreviated one and then a second pump to "fix it" that causes problems

3. trying to pump the shotgun before it unlocks, then it gets stuck, and then having to basically let off and try it again

I know several serious 3Gunners who compete with pump shotguns and they are not slower than a semi (3Gun stages are usually won by reloading anyway); however, if they are not trained up and at the top of their game, even they can make pump mistakes

9mmepiphany
December 9, 2010, 12:50 AM
i mainly use shotguns for hunting, and never competed. I just don't see how someone familiar with any self manipulated action could short cycle it unless there is some confusion when using different guns
I will say that I have never seen a pump malfunction in hunting either. The pace is much more leisurely and not as sustained.

The OP specified the circumstances that he wished folks to comment on the suitability of the differing shotgun actions:

You wake them up at 2:00am and add the dynamic deadly stress of a home invasion.

Which is more likely to occur? The semi auto malfunctioning or the pump guy short shucking his 870?

To me, this is the essence of the pump vs. semi auto debate.

I would submit that hunting or even clay games experience drifts a bit far afield form the OP's question

Uniquedot
December 9, 2010, 01:39 AM
I will say that I have never seen a pump malfunction in hunting either. The pace is much more leisurely and not as sustained.

You obviously haven't attended some of the dove shoots i have. :)

I would submit that hunting or even clay games experience drifts a bit far afield form the OP's question

Did you read post 17?

9mmepiphany
December 9, 2010, 02:13 AM
Did you read post 17?

I did, I don't see how it relates to the OP at all. You related your wonderment, not direct experience in a dynamic situation

Steve C
December 9, 2010, 02:13 AM
Shoulder fired a semi works very reliably, fired from the hip or in a way that the gun has a lot of free movement to absorb the recoil they become less reliable and have the same issues as limp wristing a semi auto pistol. A strictly mechanical action doesn't have cycling problems like this but if the operator gets lazy or doesn't work the action smartly a short stroke situation can arise with some pump actions.

A side by side or over under with double triggers is probably the most reliable for a 2nd shot of all since there's 2 completely redundant actions in the gun.

Mostly its a bunch of "what ifs". What if its a home invasion and there's more assailants than rounds in the shotgun. What if after firing the first round the other intruders are brave enough to risk their lives and take on the armed defender rather than simply running out the door. You can imagine all kinds of situations and "what if" the scenarios to absurdity.

sniper5
December 9, 2010, 10:46 AM
The one to use is the one you trust. Whichever that is.

Leaky Waders
December 9, 2010, 11:01 AM
"I will say that I have never seen a pump malfunction in hunting either. The pace is much more leisurely and not as sustained."

You're obviously not a duck hunter.

Put two or three men in a blind with a dog and the shucker will be fiddling with his gun much more than the auto crowd. I think due to the feeling of space...even though there's plenty of room, and because the shucker is wearing a lot more padding in the form of winter clothes than he's accustumed too, so his reach to shuck is longer, and he's worried about slapping someone with his elbow.

huntsman
December 9, 2010, 11:06 AM
The one to use is the one you trust. Whichever that is.


+1 And since all I've hunted with since 82 was a SXS that's what I use, I'm willing to give up more firepower for familiarity and confidence with a platform.

Girodin
December 9, 2010, 02:48 PM
Again, in over thirty years i have never short cycled a shotgun nor have i ever witnessed it. I could not count the number of shotgunners i have hunted with over the years. I had to search the net to find people whom have done this, and what i found was people (mainly kids) that are not familiar with shotguns or guns at all. Even when learning to shoot as a kid i never experienced this practice. To any one that thinks this would be a problem i would say they just need to learn how to shoot and use a firearm properly.

I would submit that IME hunting and running a gun really hard in 3 gun style shooting or the type seen in defensive shotgun courses is a whole different ball game than hunting. I love hunting birds but it is for me very different. Running a gun under stress is different than knocking down a bird in the field.

70extreme
December 9, 2010, 03:37 PM
Hunting can give you a clue into what you will do in less than ideal circumstances.

1. You have to react quickly to unexpected circumstances.
2. You may be cold, hungry, and tired (1-2 hours sleep prior to duck hunt).
3. You may be wearing lots of bulky clothing.
4. You may be firing from less than perfect positions.
5. Your gun may be muddy (duck hunting).

My last hunt, the guy I was hunting with had two short shucks that I noticed.

auschip
December 9, 2010, 04:15 PM
I've had two short cycles in a row on a particularly fun duck/goose combo hunt, with a gun that I have thousands of rounds through. It was a perfect storm combo of cold weather, tired hunter, new oil (needed more). In essence, operator error.

JNewell
December 9, 2010, 07:13 PM
I suppose when one is playing games, and changing actions...one could get confused.

That's nothing compared to what happens when they perceive a deadly force threat to their life or the life of a loved one and get that huge adrenaline dump. :eek:

seantyler09
December 9, 2010, 07:17 PM
Winchester 1400 fails less than any pump I've ever shot. Whatever your comfortable with. If truly worried about this purchace the Taurus judge with self defense rounds.

Uniquedot
December 9, 2010, 11:13 PM
Winchester 1400 fails less than any pump I've ever shot.
Both the 1400's in my collection have experienced jams in the field. Some of the folks here can say anything they want, but i know from experience that hunting is hard on guns.! If one wants to compare hunting to shooting games, then i would suggest playing those games in hunting conditions. None of this probably matters when it comes to a gun playing the role as a home defense gun, but in my opinion a home defense gun should be reliable in any conditions outside the home as well.

On a side note a police veteran once told me that "the cycling of the action of a pump shotgun is a universally recognized sound...in every case i was called upon involving such, the people hit the floor before any announcement of a robbery was made".

Buy a good pump gun and learn to cycle it...i also refuse to believe the bs that anyone familiar with his/her gun would fail to fully cycle it, no matter what he/she were facing. Human error by an individual with proper training is far less likely to occur than a semi auto malfunctioning.

To those that disagree...well you just keep on shooting your clays under perfect conditions, and keep telling me i'm wrong.

arizona98tj
December 10, 2010, 12:21 AM
Some folks need to take force on force training where the duck gets to shoot back. :D Ones perception of how great their hardware is and how infallible their skill set is can quickly change. High adrenaline pump resulting in immediate loss of fine motor skills make pump guns less than desirable. I see it every time I take a tactical shotgun course. I've ran both types.....I now use a semi-auto.....and it doesn't malfunction. If it did, I'd sell it.

Unless you are faced with some kind of high speed suicide duck strapped with C4, the comparison to field hunting comes up quite short, IMO.

Leaky Waders
December 10, 2010, 03:56 AM
"Unless you are faced with some kind of high speed suicide duck strapped with C4, the comparison to field hunting comes up quite short, IMO."

The USMC SSgt who was training our famfire course a few years ago would disagree. After we shot, he was like who taught you to use a shotgun...and I told him it was all learned in the duck blind. Soon afterwards we cleared a few houses - this was Iraq. I never had to fire a shot inside.

Also for pumps, they are hard to cycle when laying down. Narrow spaces may be more challenging too.

Duckhunting, by default as the greatest shooting sport ever known, teaches quick target id (hen or drake of which species), range limits, safety (don't shoot the dog, don't shoot over the dog, don't shoot near the dog, don't have a safety off unless it's your dog in the decoys) and shooting at weird angles.

I upland hunt when I'm not deployed and duckhunting is closed...but there is no comparison to the addiction of duckhunting.

Narwhal
December 10, 2010, 04:29 AM
In shotguns especially, I think this question still has a lot to do with the amount of shooting being done at once (or between cleanings).

For a few dozen, or maybe even a few hundred shots, the semi will be more reliable.

If you start talking about 300+ rounds in one sitting? Pump. Yeah, that doesn't happen very much, but some people don't like to clean their guns either.

70extreme
December 10, 2010, 09:04 AM
Arizona 98, my hunting experience tells me the exact same thing as your force on force.

1. You have to react quickly to unexpected circumstances.
2. You may be cold, hungry, and tired (1-2 hours sleep prior to duck hunt).
3. You may be wearing lots of bulky clothing.
4. You may be firing from less than perfect positions.
5. Your gun may be muddy (duck hunting).

My last hunt, the guy I was hunting with had two short shucks on his 870 that I noticed.

On a M1, M2, M4, or FN SLP mechanical reliability will be greater than human reliability.

Jason_W
December 10, 2010, 05:18 PM
On a M1, M2, M4, or FN SLP mechanical reliability will be greater than human reliability.

They're also very expensive. I've never had any experience with the guns listed above and I likely never will due to their price. For that reason alone, I'm sticking with my Nova for home defense.

buckhorn_cortez
December 10, 2010, 07:22 PM
Shoulder fired a semi works very reliably, fired from the hip or in a way that the gun has a lot of free movement to absorb the recoil they become less reliable and have the same issues as limp wristing a semi auto pistol.

Might be true for recoil operated semi-auto guns. Totally not true for gas operated. I have an FN SLP and it is, without a doubt, the most reliable gun I've ever owned. Can be shot 1 handed, from the hip, upside down, whatever - it just works. It is far softer recoiling than the Benelli M4, and much easier to keep on target than a pump.

As for speed - you can put 6 hulls in the air simultaneously while keeping the gun on the target. If you can do that with a pump - then you're the bionic man and really don't need a gun.

As for reliability - keep the gun clean - meaning take the thing apart every 500 rounds, clean the gas piston, and lube it. If you can't do that with a gun - don't blame the gun if it doesn't work - that's an owner malfunction not a gun malfunction.

If you want it to function even better with less recoil, send it to SRM and have the Sure Cycle system installed, have them lap the bolt, modify the gas pistons, put in a new magazine follower and better magazine spring, and do the reliability package tune-up.

Then, when you get it back, take it out and shoot at least 300 - 400 rounds through it of all different types of loads, mixed loads, mixed length loads, etc.

When, you're through testing, you will have proved to yourself that it will function with any load you put in it - and then you will no longer question which is better the pump or automatic. You'll also know you truly have a "runner."

Oh, and I do own pumps - they're really not even in the same class of gun, but for the people who insist on the nostalgia of the purported sound of racking a pump makes a perp poop their pants (gee.. I just love alliteration...)

While you're hoping racking the pump promotes the perp to poop - I've gotten off 3 shots...

Myles
December 10, 2010, 07:23 PM
I'll stick to my 870 (as an earlier poster commented, has a very well-worn action and is very "slicked up.")

But, honestly, most modern autos are more reliable than the shooter holding it. That is not a compliment to the firearm.

Dave McCracken
December 11, 2010, 10:36 AM
"Whatever you trust"....

Amen. Trust comes with use.If we KNOW that our weapon has functioned faultlessly hundreds or thousands of time in our hands we can trust it,even under risky, high stakes conditions.

Some thing that gives Yr Humble Scrivener conniption fits is the idea that buying a shotgun, shooting it once before loading it up and closeting it forever(even with flat black accessories) will keep someone safe from harm happily ever after.

Effective weapons usage means perspiration and a high round count.

Go shoot your HD shotguns. Shoot landfill rats, clays, starlings, steel plates or cardboard silohuettes with your boss's name on it. But shoot the thing.

Sermon over. I'm off to the range....

Youngster
December 11, 2010, 03:20 PM
They're also very expensive. I've never had any experience with the guns listed above and I likely never will due to their price. For that reason alone, I'm sticking with my Nova for home defense.

It's only a matter of a few hundred dollars difference, well worth it for the extra capability.

Jason_W
December 11, 2010, 03:28 PM
It's a few hundred dollars difference between a nova/supernova/870/500 and an 11-87 or 930. Jump into the realm of Benelli M4s and your looking to double or triple the cost over a pump gun.

Youngster
December 11, 2010, 04:59 PM
It's a few hundred dollars difference between a nova/supernova/870/500 and an 11-87 or 930. Jump into the realm of Benelli M4s and your looking to double or triple the cost over a pump gun.

It's still not a lot of money considering the technical advantages and build quality difference, and if you're not comparing the likes of the 870 Express, Mossberg 500s and cheap import pumps with the M4 and Tromix Saigas, the cost difference isn't so dramatic.

Owen Sparks
December 11, 2010, 08:40 PM
I am a competitive shooter and shoot tactical matches in both pump and auto divisions. I have seen more malfunctions with pumps than with autos. This is NOT because the pumps are unreliable but because people under pressure tend to short stroke them. A good quality pump like an 870 is mechanically 100% reliable YOU are the weak link. How much stress would you be under if someone were shooting at you?

Most auto malfunctions occur because the shooter does not have his auto firmly shouldered. I remember one instiance at a matck where an 11 year old boy was shooting a 20ga Remington 1100 and had jam after jam. His portly father shot a stage with the same gun and it ran 100%. The 90 pound boy just did not have enough lead in his butt to provide enough resistiance to make the auto cycle. The same thing can happen when a grown man does not have his auto firmly shouldered. This is similar to "limp wristing" a 1911.

Girodin
December 12, 2010, 04:29 AM
Jump into the realm of Benelli M4s and your looking to double or triple the cost over a pump gun.

Its more but when you consider consumable costs such as ammo and training. Plus factor in the service life of a gun its a pretty insignificant difference to me. Now if one really doesn't shoot much or use it in a way that makes the most of the auto loaders advantages then maybe it starts to get harder to justify the price difference.

70extreme
December 12, 2010, 09:18 AM
I am a competitive shooter and shoot tactical matches in both pump and auto divisions. I have seen more malfunctions with pumps than with autos. This is NOT because the pumps are unreliable but because people under pressure tend to short stroke them. A good quality pump like an 870 is mechanically 100% reliable YOU are the weak link. How much stress would you be under if someone were shooting at you?

In my mind, the above statement answers the question once and for all. Human beings under stress are less reliable than quality semiauto shotguns.

Fred Fuller
December 12, 2010, 10:39 AM
I'd say with all else being equal (operator, ammo, maintenance etc) that reliability rates for high quality modern designs in either action would be approximately equal too.

lpl

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