[clubsoda22]

Here's the situation, i don't have a CWP yet, but i plan on getting it the day i turn 21. My college is in a bad neighborhood, i'll be getting a place near it (still a bad neighborhood) mainly because Campus Safety sucks and i want to be responsible for my own protection. I can't keep guns in my dorm. In fact, they don't want me carrying guns on campus. It is "strictly forbidden." Realize that there is no law preventing anyone with the proper permit from carrying a gun on a college campus (only primary and secondary schools), but only a policy that calls for bad stuff to happen to you within the limits of what the university can do to you.

So here's the deal, more than once i have been pulled over on campus by the local PD, always for BS like "suspicious vehicle." Really, i understand that they are just making sure the college students aren't driving around drunk or stoned and my window tint leads my car to sook suspect and i'm cool with that because they are generally nice about it (only their supervisor dislikes me, but that's because he doesn't like volunteer firefighters...a long story).

Now, a lot of you guys say that you tell the officer you're carrying or hand him your CWP with your licence. Now, whenever the campus rent-a-cops see a traffic stop on campus they start nosing around trying to look like real cops. They unfortunately have a good working relationship with the locals and don't like me (another supervisor, this time a campus safety supervisor, with issues about volunteer firefighters). So, given the situation with the rent-a-cops poking around, would you just keep it to yourself? In PA there's no requirement to inform. I know it's nice to tell the officer, and if it was anywhere else i would...but i'd be hesitant telling the locals as it might get out to campus safety and end with the college acting on their anti-gun policies.

To give you an idea of how serious they are, i was overheared by a campus rent-a-cop saying to another student that licenced individuals should be able to carry (I was discussing a recent on campus armed mugging, of which there are several each month). My room was searched at 2:30am by campus safety that night.

Does anyone know if CWP's pop up on the police computer (in PA) when they run your drivers licence? If so i guess it wouldn't matter because i'll just have to rely on the cop not shooting off his mouth to the campus safety guys anyway. In that case i might as well tell him and ask politely that the wannabe in the chevy impala with the amber lightbar parked behind him not know.

[Daedalus]

I do not have any advice but I GOTTA hear the backstory on this rent-a-cop and volunteer-firefighter feud.

[clubsoda22]

Ok, from what i hear there was 1 dumbass who used his blue light's for picking up pizza. Volunteers can register with PSP with a cheif's signature for blue lights on their cars. They are only courtesy lights and are simply a flashy way of requesting that other motorists yeild right of way, which they don't have to, but are quite inconsiderate if they don't. Every so often there's one idiot who abuses them, then all the vollies get a bad wrap. That's why the campus safety supervisor doesn't like us. It's probably a bit Freudian with him too as they only get amber lights. :neener: :D

The police supervisor is for similar reasons, though he's more of an elitist and doesn't think anyone but cops should have emergency lighting. I'm willing to bet he thinks the same way about guns too. If one of his officers were injured, however, and the city squads were busy, and my company was called in to cover (happens at least twice a day), I doubt he'd care too much about bluelighters responding to get an ambulance out.

The point is that the guys at my squad don't abuse their privleges and only use their lights responding to calls (my department is only 1 mile from campus but not in the city). This one moron was from out of county and from what i hear was expelled from his department for being a complete tool. We still got the bad wrap.

There's also a little problem between volunteer and paid firefighters. Some paid firefighters simply don't like volunteers, this is because paid guys treat it like a job and us vollies treat it as a service to the community. They don't like us getting praise for doing it for no money. In support of the paid guys, a lot of them are cool and many of them also voluteer in surrounding communities, i have however had one of them intentionally cut me off while i was bluelighting to a call (which is a real crappy thing to do). They however didn't complain the last time the arsonist struck three times in the city in one night and we covered them (we are a second alarm company for the city).

[ny32182]

Transfer?

[clubsoda22]

i actually like she school. Let me tell you now, just about every college has anti-gun policies. To tell you the truth, this one isn't so bad as they actually are letting me set up a shooting team.

[Horsesense]

I appreciate volunteer fire fighters and the selfless work they do for the community. That being said, you got to admit, there is a high % of VFD members who are a cross between Barney Fife and Batman.

Around these parts, if you see smoke in the distance or pass a fender bender, you had better watch out for Bubba the VFD guy, with his light flashing and half a dozen antennas flappen in the wind, doing 90mph and passing on a double yellow line! Ninjas without a mall?

[clubsoda22]

I know what you're saying horse. It's usually that one idiot who gives all the other guys a bad rep. Fortunately there aren't any of those at my station. I think the further out in the sticks you get the more you find.

Blue lights don't let you violate traffic laws. Passing on the double yellow is only permitted if the person infront of you yeilds and there's not enough room to get around him. Anyway, it should be done slowly and with a good blow of our horn. Speeding excessively is always looked down upon.

Back to the original topic please. Tell the cop? Don't tell the cop? Does pa have CWP pop up on the cops computer anyway?

[stevelyn]

Yes let's get back to the topic.

The answer to your question is: It depends.....It depends if whether or not as a CHL holder if your state statutes require you to inform. Some states do others do not. I don't know about PA, but Alaska for example requires you to exhibit your CHL along with your drivers license as soon as you are stopped/approached by LE. This is information you will learn if your state has a training requirement. If it don't, get the training anyway. It will keep your legal bacon out of the fire.
However with that being said, in places that do not require it depending on the situation you may or may not want to inform an officer you're armed. If you are stopped for a traffic infraction and the situation goes no further than you being issued a citation or warning and being sent on your way, informing the officer probably won't be necessary.
OTOH if you are going to be asked to exit the vehicle for any reason, keep your hands in plan sight and inform him you are a CHL holder. Inform that you are presently armed, where the gun is located, and ask how he wants you to proceed from there.
This will keep the officer from going to general quarters and introducing you to the ground/car hood if he does a pat-down and finds it on you. It's just common courtesy to inform and you'll find that most officers are pretty cool with the idea of CHL holders.
In my experience and most officers I know, CHL holders have been the least of my worries and the most courteous and cooperative of citizens.

[DadOfThree]

Even in states where you are required to tell an officer (Indiana is not one of them), would you be required to tell campus security? Rent a Cops? Mall Security? I would think it would be restricted to State or Federal LEOs. I wouldn't tell him and concealed means he can't see it without frisking you, right?

[TonyB]

I wouldn't tell fake cops anything.....real cops ....depends.....if I was carrying illegally....probably not and take my chances that they won't find out...that said I wouldn't carry illegally.........on the other hand in NY state if you have target and hunting restictions on your permit in means you CAN carry on the way to the range...so who's to say you're not on the way to the range after class?????throw some target and ammo in the trunk......not sure about PA laws though........again,I wouldn't approve of carrying illegally,but if your life is in danger...it's your call.......but agian concealed means concealed...and as far as I know rent-a-cops and campus rambos can't frisk or search you....also if my car cuased me to get pulled over alot,I'd get rid of the tint maybe put some Howard Dean stickers on it..:D
the key to carrying is to NOT draw attention to yourself......good luck:cool:

[squibload]

I don’t think that the CCW info pops up when your info comes up in a cruiser.

On the other topic, I’ve personally seen more ego problems with the younger VFF’s I know than with any Campus Safety officer I’ve known. (I don’t know the guys from your squad, so this isn’t meant as a blanket statement…just IME.)

The lightbars, etc. are cool perks, but there seems to be an expectation (again, from younger VFF’s) that as a volunteer you’re owed something for your service.

When you volunteer, expect nothing in return – no courtesy from the public, no slack by police, no pat on the back, no words of appreciation. Do it for yourself and the good of the community, but don’t be surprised when you’re treated exactly the same as everyone else. Think “High Road”.

Don’t be pissed or surprised if the Campus Safety Officer overhears/ is told that you have a firearm on campus and then he/she follows whatever procedures the Campus Police have in place. Learn the campus police’s policies and make sure that you don’t break their rules.

Don’t like the rules? Get out of Dodge and transfer your credits.

[artherd]

Ditch the tint, run silent and run deep.

And don't even STOP for rent-a-cops if you are not required to (highly unlikely that you are, you mentioned amber bars...)

Real cops, if you're on campus, and in a non-inform state, I would probally do just that, not inform. Unless ordered (not 'asked'. If you are 'asked', politely inquire "Sir, are you asking me, or telling me to extricate myself?) out of the vehicle. At that point the jig is up, and unless you want to taste some grass and nurse a headache, you'd better say, with your hands in sight, "I am carrying concealed, it is a XXX in location XXX. How would you like to proceed?"

A quick request to the cop 'Univ's private policy will kick me out if I carry, mind keeping it between us?' will probally do the job. You may also need to mention that you know of no law preventing you from carrying, and you have checked. The Univ VS Elementry-school distinction might not be obvious to everyone.

[Steve in PA]

No. having/owning a CCW does not appear when we "run" you.

Why do almost all your posts start off with, Person A doesn't like me..or has it in for me?? :confused:

What campus are you talking about? Sounds like everyone there has a bug up their rear about something. :scrutiny:

[ny32182]

Any search of my dorm room at 2AM would have led to me leaving that school while complaining bitterly. I've got a right to privacy, and most likely class at 8 in the morning, and wouldn't take kindly to ANYTHING going on at 2 in the morning on a weeknight, much less a search of my whole dorm room.

I go to school in SC, which is a pretty gun friendly state. Our school has a shooting team. Students living on campus can have their own firearms as long as they are stored at a designated facility. However, if ANYONE (not just a student) is found to have an unauthorized firearm on campus, which basically means, a firearm in your possession on campus, its a felony conviction, no questions.

[Sunray]

"...My room was searched at 2:30am by campus safety that night..." Did you file a complaint with the school about this harrassment?

[Peetmoss]

I wouldn't tell any security gaurd I was packing. It seems it woud be benificial to keep your trap shut in this situation. The risk far out ways the possible reward IMHO.

On a side note how does the local cheif feel about fire trucks and chiefs with red lights and sirens. Around here you are required by law to yeild to any emergency viechle, this includes personal viechels that fire chiefs have. Also around here being a volenteer fireman will get you out of just about any non serious violation weather responding to a call or not.

[clubsoda22]

I don't think some of you read it correctly. I'm not stopping for campus cops (as i don't have to). I'm stopping for real cops. Then the campus rentals pull up.

Squib, i see it all the time too. It's a problem with a lot of guys who joined after 9/11. I, on the other hand, am not like that, i do this for the community, and a personal sence of satisfaction. Getting out of an occasional ticket is just a bonus. (And no, i don't have a lightbar, i've got the smallest low profile dashlight possible)

Steve, hardly all of my posts start with people having it in for me. Where it's important they do. This is about it for people that have it in for me: The police supervisor has it in for vollies in general. The top police detective has it in for me because i mouthed off to him when he confronted me in a dimly lit parking lot in an unmarked vehicle, not in uniform and started giving me crap. I had no idea who he was because he didn't follow procedure and failed to identify himself, so i was quite rude as i don't like being confronted at night in neighborhoods known for their crime problems. The campus safety supervisor has it in for me because he has a bad impression from the other kid (the moron who abused his lights) and because when he asked me not to bluelight through campus i told him it wasn't his decision to make and that if he has a valid complaint he could call my cheif. I go to widener university in chester, and yes, a lot of the campus safety officers are big time wannabe's. A lot are nice guys however who absolutely love us vollies. I've seen others attempt traffic stops by pulling out infront of vehicles and slamming on their breaks. :rolleyes:

As far as the room search goes, in their eyes it was valid as they had what they consider a reasonable suspicion and they own the building. It's a dorm, i have no rights, which is why i'm moving of campus.

Hopefully a lot of the problems will change once the moron who directs campus safety is gone. He doesn't allow their officers to carry pepper spray or wear vests because he feels it will make people think the campus isn't safe...in what parallel universe is this campus safe? I don't know.

[luxone]

The law here in Indiana does not require me to tell the officer, therefore I am not volunteering any information. I am the son of a LEO and have been taught that you answer the questions your asked and provide the information your asked for. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ysr_racer]

Kids, drinking and dope. That's why guns are not allowed on campus.

Now I know every 21 year old reading this knows everything about everything, but some times adults have to make rules for the protection of children.

[Majic]

If your campus is privately run then they own the land and if they say no firearms then you must obey their wishes. CCW's have no jursidictions on privately owned lands. You were informed of this in the school's code.
No matter what your school maybe, private or state funded, if they have written rules stating no firearms and you break these rules then legally they may not be able to take the matter up in court, but they do have the right to expell you on the grounds of breaking school rules. You are walking on thin ice over deep water.

[gaston_45]

First off racer, what age do you consider an adult? Obviously not 21 so what should it be? 30? Your age? 18 is adulthood for most things, I do not see why that changes when you go to college. As far as college administration knowing what's best that is laughable at best. As you stated, they allow illegal drugs and booze with little or no repricussions. Yet you think it's a great idea to limit their right to own firearms, which are legal?? Hopefully you were saying that in jest and forgot the sarcasm alert.

[clubsoda22]

racer, i gotta tell ya, i've never touched pot, i avoid alcohol...i've never even tried a cigarette! I resent being grouped with the idiots my age.

If your campus is privately run then they own the land and if they say no firearms then you must obey their wishes. CCW's have no jursidictions on privately owned lands.

Wrong. If a crime occurs just about anywhere aside from in a campus run building they consider it a "city crime" to avoid putting it in the federally mandated campus crime statistics. The only places you are restricted from carrying in PA are courthouses and primary/secondary schools. The worst they could do is expulsion, which is unlikely as I an one of 8 students that work closely with the president of the university to coordinate volunteer action in the community. I'd likely get in trouble, but i have a feeling that aside from the possible scenario I stated above, the only way they would learn that i'm carrying is if i had to shoot my way out of a life threatening situation.

[clubsoda22]

Here's what i found in the student handbook.

Firearms Policy

The unapproved possession, use, or sale of firearms, ammunition, fireworks, major or minor explosives, or any lethal or offensive weapon is strictly forbidden and subject to university discipline as well as criminal sanctions. Approval for use is confined to such specific situations as ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corps) functions.

That's pretty vauge if you ask me. They don't even specify where such items are prohibited.

Note that "criminal sanctions" are if applicable, which they are not.

Anyway, back to the point at hand, when i get my permit i will be carrying. Tell the cop or not?

[*8*]

So here's the deal, more than once i have been pulled over on campus by the local PD, always for BS like "suspicious vehicle." Really, i understand that they are just making sure the college students aren't driving around drunk or stoned and my window tint leads my car to sook suspect and i'm cool with that because they are generally nice about it

hehe, I used to be in the same boat.... a few years ago, the local cops pulled me over for "routine traffic stop", suspicious vehicle running around at 2 a.m in the morning, I was driving one of my dad's cars.

Recently, I was pulled over for no license plates on my truck, volunteered additional info. which I shouldn't have. I learned from a THR member who sent me a PM informing me that the one who pulled me over is a "profiler" looking for drugs and stuff.

I'm not sure if he wants me to post his username but hey man thanks for the heads up, I'm usually in SC like 4x a week visiting the GF, love that town, lots of cool people and whatnot.

If not required in your state, keep the CCW to yourself.


:)

[Majic]

Where is it vague when they have specifically listed the approved use as being specific as in ROTC functions? Conceal carry is not a specific function. You are tring to read between the lines and insert your personal agenda.
As to the law it only refers to public property as owners of private property have the right not to allow you to carry on their property no matter what any CCW says. That's why I said if your school is a private institution and not a state funded one they can forbid firearms.
While you have great faith in your school's president, don't put him/her in the situation where they have to choose between you wanting to carry on campus and their continued employment with the school. You may learn something you will not like. Your volunteer work is not that important. This will become apparent the day you leave school, but the various programs continue on without you helping.

[clubsoda22]

enough BS then. No more reading inbetween the lines and trying to find loopholes. They don't need to know an neither do the cops. That way, i'm covered unless i have to shoot someone.

To hell with their policies. What they don't know won't hurt them.

I'm legal, they're blissful in their ignorance.

Frankly, i'm tired of institutions making policies based on their wild imaginations. If they think that i'll get drunk one night at a frat party and start waving around a gun, so be it--i'll be the one who shows them otherwise. Enough of this prior restraint crap.

The only problems we've ever had on campus with guns comes from a number of residents in the surrounding city pointing them at us and demanding our wallets...or simply shooting us without warning and taking our wallets, as was the case last spring.

[duckfoot]

Don't tell unless you are asked to get out of the car by a Law Enforcement Officer!

[Majic]

Well take precautions if you decide to ignore the polices. They have already been informed of the possibility of you having firearms. If they do manage to find you with a weapon then they have printed in the handbook that they will confiscate the weapon. You may or may not have a difficult time in court over their policies, but most certainly it will be expensive.
I'm saying this because no matter what you may think today, you agreed to school policies the day you accepted admission to attend.

[squibload]

I go to widener university in chester...

Hell, I would carry if I went there. My wife got her Masters there, and more than a few times she would come home and tell me "You should have seen this guy in the parking lot...he was pretty shady looking..." :eek:

I've noticed that the Public Safety folks there do have a very noticeable presence on campus, and in my opinion, rightly so. Unfortunately, Chester's local population (read: townies) seem to roam the campus at will. Since it's not a "gated" campus, the Public Safety folks probably have their hands full, with the student population as well as the locals.

Not to mention the fact that it's right off I-95, 15 minutes south of Philly and 15 minutes north of Wilmington. I'd guess that a fair amount of illegal activity (drugs, guns, et al)runs up and down that corridor, and some of it may get off the off ramp, make a right, and end up right on Widener's campus.

I'd guess that everyone in an official capacity (police or campus safety) would be pretty tense at all times with the potential crap that could occur, due to it's location.

squib

[clubsoda22]

Exactly squib, glad to see someone who knows the area. Unfortunately, the large presence of campus safety officers is more concerned with stopping underage drinking than muggings.

If you take a step off campus, i can assure you can spot drug deals going down in broad daylight. The cops seem to have other concerns.

As far as being a midpoint between Philly and Wilmington, you are absolutely correct. The area is a notorious drug trafficking corridor.

The city is also known for political corruption, poverty and a high crime rate.

The locals have also come to realize that if you want to have a successful mugging, the rich (comparitively), disarmed white kids on campus are easy targets.

Duck, i think that's probably what i'll end up doing.

Majic, they have no athority to confiscate the weapon or arrest me. The only athority to confiscate it would be if i was keeping it in the residence halls, which i am moving out of as they are quite expensive for what they are.

The real question is, given squib's description, along with my own, what would you do if you could legally carry, despite it being frowned upon?

In fact, on this campus you are not allowed to carry pepper spray, which i do anyway, along with a tactical folder. This is looking like it's going to change as a group of students, under my advice, have contacted several womens groups to inform them of such policies. While those womens groups will fight the ban on defensive sprays, i doubt they'd be likely to take up the gun issue.

[Majic]

Personally if I was in the situation of a bad enviroment, suspected of having a forbidden weapon, and being harrassed by officials then I would be looking to transfer my credits to another school. All schools will forbid the weapon, but i would look for one with a better surrounding eviroment. Remove the coolness factor of your car (tinted windows) and that will not draw as much attention to you. You must learn to blend in and not stand out.

[clubsoda22]

The tint came with the car, and i have found it to be quite functional ::wink:: and 100% legal in PA.

I'll say again, i like the school and do not want to transfer for various reasons. This school is great, the neighborhood just sucks. After not finding any guns in my dorm, i am no longer suspect.

A good amount of the campus safety guys are quite pro gun and a few told me they'd even encourage students to carry. Most of those guys are older retired police officers or those with no ambitions for going into law enforcement and are just doing the job because of the education benifits (they can take up to 9 credits per year free). The real strokers are the young guys who are using it as a stepping stone to becoming cops or the guys in their 30's who were bitter they couldn't pass the police physical.

I also can't help but think that local LE are slowly warming up to me. At first, i got greif at the traffic stops and had a bunch of cops with the "i'm the police and you're just some punk kid" attitude. It's more gotten to the point of being routine. They shouldn't be much of a problem by my junior year when i would start carrying.

[LynnMassGuy]

Don't say anything unless you are about to be searched by a real cop.

[Majic]

The tint may be legal, but it draws attention to you. That is what should be avoided.
Just because nothing was found during the search don't think the incident is automatically forgotten. Especially since you stated the chief of security doesn't care for you.
You like where you are, but you can't change the world and such is life. Carry if you wish, but don't be surprised of the fallout that may transpire if your decisions encounter problems for you. You seem to be a young, intelligent college student, but you still have alot to learn. This is not given as an insult to you, but to advise you of the possible consequences when trying to circumvent established policies.

[answerguy]

I don’t think that the CCW info pops up when your info comes up in a cruiser.

It does in Michigan. (off your name , not your car plate)

[Steve in PA]

"Came with the car" as being factory installed when they built the car and legal.......or "came with the car" as being bought used, installed by someone else and darker than allowed by PA law???

[Double Naught Spy]

Let's see, under age for a license, carrying concealed in a vehicle while traveling across campus and being stopped by the real cops...YES, you really should tell the cops you are carrying a firearm. This is especially true if you are one of those punk kids who are perpectually being stopped by cops for no real reason and for whom the cops seem to have it in for you.

If you are stupid enough to admitting to breaking the law in a public forum like this, then you should extend the courtesy to the cops. There is definitely something wrong with you or your car if you are being stopped on such a regular basis that you have now come to the asinine decision that the cops are 'warming up' to you.

[tetleyb]

I would like to echo something DoubleNaught said:

"if you are stupid enough to admitting breaking the law in public forum like this..."

I'm not going to debate the rights and wrongs of what was said. However, everyone, please remember, EVERYTHING you do and say, on this internet board and others, can be held against you in a court of law. I suggest you be careful about what you say and do not say.

Just my two cents.

[clubsoda22]

If you are stupid enough to admitting to breaking the law in a public forum like this, then you should extend the courtesy to the cops. There is definitely something wrong with you or your car if you are being stopped on such a regular basis that you have now come to the asinine decision that the cops are 'warming up' to you.

Where did i say ANYWHERE that i was carrying? I specifically stated that I am not carrying because i am underage. The situation is specifically stated to be when i do turn 21 and obtain a licence.

[personal attack removed by moderator -- pax]

As far as being pulled over often on campus, i'm certainly not the only one who gets this kind of treatment. It's fairly universal for the cops in this town to harass the college kids. And yes, the cops are warming up to me as they realize who I am and that i'm not a trouble maker.

Steve, it's only on the rear windows, and is not factory. The only time i've really had a cop mention it was when i rolled down the rear drivers side window at a stop and he thanked me for doing so as it was being considerate to allow him greater visability inside the car. The tint law in PA is confusing, i'm not sure if my tint is legal or not. It's definately darker than is legal in most places, but i'm not sure if PA law is ok with it as it's on the rear windows only. Either way, to get it removed properly it would cost me quite a bit of money, and as i've never been ticketed for it, i don't see a point.

For clarification, cops don't pull me over for the tint, i am simply speculating that might be one of the reasons my car looks "suspicious". More likely is that they caught a glimpse of my dashlight and were wondering who i was. Very rarely is my tint mentioned, more often they ask if my light is registered with PSP. Just about everyone who drives around late at night on campus gets pulled over for being a "suspicious vehicle"

Majic, i haven't been bothered about the search since, in fact, one of the safety officers who was involved apologised to me for it.

[Steve in PA]

Section 4524 Windshield Obstructions and Wipers-

(e) Sunscreening and other materials prohibited-

(1) sunscreening device and other materials which does not permit a person to see into the vehicle through the front windshield or front side windows is illegal.


(Nothing about rear windows, since pickup trucks normally have their rear windows blocked by a cap. So you can not be cited for having the rear window tinted)

[pax]

Closed for declining civility.

pax