Most accurate sub $1,000 carry/combat pistol?


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springwalk
December 10, 2010, 11:29 PM
So whats the most accurate carry/combat pistol you have or have experienced that doesnt exceed $1,000? For me the Sig P220 Combat 45 is the most accurate, but for carry the ultimate 9mm is my Heckler and Koch P7 PSP 9mm. Both with the right ammo will hover around 1" at 25 yards. Whats your special tack driving protection piece?:cool::cool:

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rellascout
December 10, 2010, 11:32 PM
Mechanically accurate or in your hand accurate?

springwalk
December 11, 2010, 12:47 AM
relishscout, mechanically theres no doubt a fixed barrel pistol like the HK P7 cant be touched in accuracy. In my hand the P220 45 is scary accurate. Of course the 45 cartridge has always been inherantly more accurate than the 9mm and definitely the lousy cop loving 40.

clang
December 11, 2010, 12:49 AM
S&W Shorty 40.

bigfatdave
December 11, 2010, 12:59 AM
Is there really a meaningful difference in real-world accuracy in duty/carry handguns of modern manufacture?

I find my Walther PPS and compact 1911 to be very accurate when I do target work with the goal of punching small holes in targets, neither is a match gun or dedicated target pistol, but each is mechanically sound and has good enough sights and ergonomics to allow me to make pretty holes in paper to hang on the fridge.

Now, if one were putting their handguns into Ransom rests for self-defense purposes, it might matter, otherwise I'm thinking that the gun with a fixed barrel or at least sights mounted to the barrel will do best ... I think the new Detonics is planned to have the front sight built into the barrel rather than the slide, my old Walther P.1 has the front sight on the barrel instead of the slide, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) Lugers had sights and barrel fixed together, and there must be others I'm just not thinking of.

Operative factors I can think of; sight radius/design, ergonomics, trigger quality, lockup or having sights and barrel fixed, consistency of cartridge, quality of barrel, degree of recoil's effect on ballistics ... ...
there's probably more, too many variables and no real-world testing may mean no meaningful answer here.

springwalk
December 11, 2010, 01:23 AM
Walther PPS, though seemingly a good carry, isnt something I'd trust my life to in carry, nor accuracy. As for the expired and often touted 1911, one must pay a good $2,000 for a custom unit to meet the accuracy of an out of box Sig P220 or modern design. My point is there are differences and some designs are more inherantly accurate. Sure, some folks may not have the skill to reach the given potential, but its always comforting to have a design that maybe just one day you can experience its potential:D.

HK-Freak
December 11, 2010, 03:48 AM
P7 for sure.

pvtmcd
December 11, 2010, 06:10 AM
I think I do my best with my sig 229 in 9mm.

Rinspeed
December 11, 2010, 06:33 AM
My 220 is very accurate.

rellascout
December 11, 2010, 10:13 AM
relishscout, mechanically theres no doubt a fixed barrel pistol like the HK P7 cant be touched in accuracy. In my hand the P220 45 is scary accurate. Of course the 45 cartridge has always been inherantly more accurate than the 9mm and definitely the lousy cop loving 40.

By how much and at what yardage? Data please.

As for the expired and often touted 1911, one must pay a good $2,000 for a custom unit to meet the accuracy of an out of box Sig P220 or modern design.

IMHO you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Combat accuracy is withing 0 to 15 yards. bigfatdave is spot on with the question is there really a difference.

I also believe that my $700 DW CBOB & my $700 Colt 70 repo are just as accurate as my W. German P220. I do not have a ransom rest and do not shoot from them because they give me no enjoyment but it is my belief that if I put these 3 guns on a rest they are all going to be so close in mechanical accuracy that the difference will not be meaningful in any real world situation. 99% of the accuracy of said a pistol comes from the Indian not the arrow. Almost all modern pistols are capable of greater mechanical accuracy than the shooter is capable of producing.

The question should be which gun is the most accurate in your hands and why. This is a completely subjective question because "real world combat accuracy" is more about how the gun fits you and how well you interact with it then how mechanically accurate the pistol is.

I think that this video perfect illustrates my point. YMMV

http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45#p/u/27/UVzSAm5VhfE

alienbogey
December 11, 2010, 12:08 PM
P7.

Hk Dan
December 11, 2010, 02:45 PM
Never seen something beat my HK USP45 for accuracy out of the box.

Hangingrock
December 11, 2010, 03:15 PM
Springwalk:Of course the 45 cartridge has always been inherantly more accurate than the 9mm That is a general misconception.:what::)

jim243
December 11, 2010, 03:58 PM
That is a general misconception

Yes, by anyone that shoots the 45 ACP. Own both, shoot both, accurate with both, but more accurate with the 1911, and that is not an accident, Just designed that way.

Jim

bigfatdave
December 11, 2010, 04:27 PM
Yes, by anyone that shoots the 45 ACP. Own both, shoot both, accurate with both, but more accurate with the 1911,

Sure, but is that ergonomics and a better trigger, or some magical property of the .45ACP?

Or is it that the extra ~1/10" diameter from .35" to .45" means you cross a line on the target more often?

crashbuell
December 11, 2010, 10:11 PM
I really like my XD 9 in 4" for autoloaders, but I used to have a Ruger GP100 4"(I know, not an auto) that was just sick. That was a true point of aim shooting gun. But getting back to the XD, right out of the box, I could shoot two inch groups at 30' with it. I know that I'm not the best shooter in the world, but I can't get those groups with my 229...

Isher
December 12, 2010, 02:00 AM
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_6-JHogjgx_I/TQRvVq1fm-I/AAAAAAAAAvw/njgE2G8SU-I/s800/CZ97BGB.jpg

The CZ97B, although a fullsized weapon, is out of its scary little mind accurate right out of the box. For $625 NIB. No competition that I know of until you get waaay North of a G.

Isher

denfoote
December 12, 2010, 02:08 AM
http://usera.ImageCave.com/denfoote/1985MK-I.jpg

1985 Herstal High Power.

This gun is scary accurate!!

bds
December 12, 2010, 02:37 AM
I think that this video perfect illustrates my point.
+1 to Hickok45 (http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45#p/u/27/UVzSAm5VhfE) comments about pistol accuracy. Many times at the range, other shooters complain about their pistols not shooting accurate as mine (which are all essentially stock). When I produce the same tight shot groups with their pistols, they just give me the "look" :D

Kachok
December 12, 2010, 12:17 PM
No question about it .40S&W Springfeild XD 5" tactical by far. I would tell you about the 14 round group I shot the other day but nobody would beleive it. Lets just say it shot tighter then my old Winchester Model 70 off the sandbags NO KIDDING. That level of accuracy is simply pointless in a personal defence handgun but wow is it fun showing up your buddies like that :)

G27RR
December 12, 2010, 12:26 PM
These are all about the same for me. I only shoot pistols offhand, so I am the limiting factor in differentiating the "most" accurate one. These have always produced better groups than my other pistols, though.

STI Ranger II .45ACP
STI Ranger II 9mm
Colt Combat Elite .45ACP
Springfield XD45 Tactical .45ACP
Glock 21SF .45ACP
Sig P226 9mm
HK USP .40S&W

Airburst
December 12, 2010, 01:05 PM
I can shoot ragged holes with my S&W 645, SW99 in 45ACP, both far under the 1k cost.

54lariat
December 12, 2010, 01:31 PM
Sig 226, little big for carry, but I have carried it...great groups

Kahr CW40 Great for carry, but has the longest travel trigger, I could hit center of Mass, but placement is not as nice as the Sig, or My XD's :(

John Wayne
December 12, 2010, 03:40 PM
Of course the 45 cartridge has always been inherantly more accurate than the 9mm and definitely the lousy cop loving 40.

Where do people get this crap? What features of the .45 CARTRIDGE do you feel make it more accurate than a 9mm or .40 S&W?

bluto
December 12, 2010, 04:15 PM
rellascout (and the Hickok 45 video) answers the question perfectly.

It's almost always the Indian, not the arrow. Even when you take combat accuracy out of the equation and talk only about target accuracy almost all production guns can outshoot you. For under $1000 you have dozens of pistols in 9mm, .45, or the much maligned (but very accurate) .40. that will put 5 shots around 1.5" at 25 yards.

The guns judged "most accurate" usually come with the best triggers and sights OOTB. ;)

Sebastian the Ibis
December 12, 2010, 09:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So whats the most accurate carry/combat pistol you have or have experienced that doesnt exceed $1,000?

It doesn't matter what is accurate for me. Find what YOU like and practice with it. Any stock Sig, Glock, HK, Beretta, FN etc. will be plenty accurate and can outshoot 99% of the people on this planet. Any real accuracy increase beyond that most likely results in a trade off that makes the gun unsuitable for concealed carry.

crashbuell
December 12, 2010, 09:54 PM
Why do the .40's get such a bad rap? My duty Sig 226 in .40 is a lovely gun. Sure, it has a little more muzzle flip than I'd like, but it's a good round. My department did some ballistic testing and the 165 grain Federal will poke a hole in a windshield and still have enough steam to potentially stop a badguy. Definitely the Rodney Dangerfield of rounds!

TheWorstKind
December 12, 2010, 10:02 PM
I shot my Sig P220, then my new Bersa Thunder 45 UC back to back a few weeks ago, just to see how well I could shoot the new Bersa. When each shot was carefully aimed, the performance of the two guns in my hands was virtually identical. When I switched to firing quickly, I shot better with the Sig. Two reasons for this: First, I have many, many rounds through the Sig, including rapid fire drills, whereas this was an early outing for the Bersa. Second, the Sig is a full sized gun with really good sights, so the re-aquisition of the target was faster and closer spacing with the Sig. Having said that, I was very pleased with how I was able to shoot the Bersa. For $350.00, or so, the Bersa Thunder 45 UC Pro is a fine choice for a concealed carry pistol. For a combat pistol, I would think a full size gun is the preferred choice?

springwalk
December 12, 2010, 11:50 PM
I sincerely believe all things being equal the 45acp is a more accurate round than the 9mm and definitely the 40. I dont know if its the 45's lower cartridge pressure, slower velocity or both but at least for me I can say I've never owned an inaccurate 45. Yet I can say I have owned inaccurate 9mm and 40s. Even in a Glock, which isnt known for top notch accuracy like a Sig, my G30 45 is clearly more accurate than the G26 9mm. As a matter of fact the G30 isnt too far off from my Sig P220. I was pleasantly surprised at the G30 as I assumed all tupperware were good, but not great. I was wrong on that. I suspect the HK tupperware shoots fine too. The only HK I own is the sadly discontinued P7 PSP 9mm. Now thats an accurate 9mm!

Morrell
December 13, 2010, 08:01 AM
CZ 82 is the best I've used personally.

rellascout
December 13, 2010, 09:17 AM
I sincerely believe all things being equal the 45acp is a more accurate round than the 9mm and definitely the 40. I dont know if its the 45's lower cartridge pressure, slower velocity or both but at least for me I can say I've never owned an inaccurate 45. Yet I can say I have owned inaccurate 9mm and 40s. Even in a Glock, which isnt known for top notch accuracy like a Sig, my G30 45 is clearly more accurate than the G26 9mm. As a matter of fact the G30 isnt too far off from my Sig P220. I was pleasantly surprised at the G30 as I assumed all tupperware were good, but not great. I was wrong on that. I suspect the HK tupperware shoots fine too. The only HK I own is the sadly discontinued P7 PSP 9mm. Now thats an accurate 9mm!

I think what you mean to say is that for you the 45 ACP is more accurate than a 9mm. Your statements have no data to back it up expect for your subjective obervations based on how well you shoot gun X in X caliber. They have no bearing or meaning for anyone else because of their absolute subjectivity.

I can guarantee that if you stick that g36 and g30 into a vise and take you out of the equation you will find that they are about the same in terms of true mechanical accuracy.

In this thread and in others you have made accuracy claims about this gun or this caliber but have not offered up a single data point. From all indications you have never shot a gun from a randsom rest or vise in order to determine the true validity of your claims.

So I again have to ask. Are you making statements about the mechanical accuracy of gun X or are you simply telling us what you shoot better?

Sam1911
December 13, 2010, 10:07 AM
I sincerely believe all things being equal the 45acp is a more accurate round than the 9mm and definitely the 40. To be blunt (though not meaning to be rude), sincere belief doesn't equal even a shred of actual fact. "All things being equal," three high-precision test barrels, one in 9mm, one in .40S&W, and one in .45ACP, mounted in a unviersal receiver bolted to a bench are going to shoot well-made ammo into groups that will be functionally identical.

Individual guns can be made very precisely (or not) and can display good or bad accuracy. Certain gun designs are inhernatly more accurate than others. However, one caliber or cartridge is not inherantly more accurate than another.

Consider this: The Army Marksmanship Unit modifies their M9 Berettas -- a pistol not known for being extremely accurate -- to shoot 9mm match ammo into a 1-1/2" group for 10 shots ... at FIFTY yards. Tell me again how innacurate 9mm is? If only they were shooting .45s that standard would be 1-1/4" at 50 yds? (Hint: Wilson Combat will give you a 1" guarantee on certain of their guns ... at 25 yds.)

benderx4
December 13, 2010, 10:35 AM
HK P7

Compact, streamlined, reliable, safe, AND accurate!

easyg
December 13, 2010, 12:20 PM
I sincerely believe all things being equal the 45acp is a more accurate round than the 9mm and definitely the 40.
The .45ACP is certainly no more accurate than the 9mm or the .40.
And it is actually LESS accurate at longer distances due to the typical .45 bullet weight and the typically lower velocity.
The .45 drops off the point of aim quite a bit out past 50 yards.


Even in a Glock, which isnt known for top notch accuracy like a Sig, my G30 45 is clearly more accurate than the G26 9mm.
Actually, Glocks are known to be plenty accurate....usually much more accurate than the shooter.
Easily as accurate as a Sig.

Samari Jack
December 13, 2010, 12:50 PM
Tack driving is not as important as dependability at the supposed typical CCW range of less than 15 ft. I'd rather have the pistol equalivant of the AK that shoot first, second, and third time every time with lint or a bit of foreign stuff in the works. I hate what the AKs stand for but dependability over accuracy short range is best for concealed carry. LE is a different need. I love my Kahr P9 for CC. Light, easily concealed, and carries enough rounds to get out of trouble. Striker fired with no thumb safety to fiddle with using nervous hands when needed. No hammer to catch on stuff.

PabloJ
December 13, 2010, 01:36 PM
Both P7 and CZ75 were more accurate then my current S&W 457. The 457 is plenty accurate bullets from its barrel make bigger holes and it fits perfectly into $6.97 Walmart bought Crossman handgun holster. Practice ammo is $16.97 per box of 50 at Walmart.

Mudinyeri
December 13, 2010, 05:49 PM
I'm pretty sure Hi Point semi-autos get you the most accuracy for the dollar. :)

bigfatdave
December 13, 2010, 06:07 PM
Well with the fixed barrel I'm not surprised

Coolbreeze8804
December 13, 2010, 08:02 PM
okay, here's horrible... I have a handfull of very nice, what I would consider high end 1911's (Including a long slide Matchmaster with exensive work, , a colt and a Kimber), a DE in .50 AE, an S&W 46x, Beretta 92 and 92S, a Luger, an XD45 and XD9, and the standard hodgepodge of LCP, PPK-S, Bersa Thunder 380, S&W Bodyguard 380 type stuff... All of which shoot better than I do, but that's a given.

I also own a ransom rest, with many many grip plates. The single most accurate handgun ever fired in that rest, (Including a TC in .45LC, was, and still is, a STAR Firestar in Stainless, in .45 ACP. It was for all practical purposes, a single hole group at 25 yards, (.502") and right at 1" at fifty. (1.09") It's a crappy little gun that weighs a ton, is ugly, and doesn't feel good in anybodys hand that I've ever handed it to. But holy cow is it an accurate little monster from a rest. (I also don't think that the accuracy is based on it being a .45)

That being said, My Matchmaster is the best grouping gun that I own when I am plugged into the circuit. It is a Safari Arms model from back in the 80's before Oly took them over, and I carried it all over S America as my primary sidearm, so it's taken a pretty good beating a few times.

On the .45 accuracy arguement, I remember being told, (and I don't remember by who, but I think it's in my reloading book from Speer), that the .45 was the most inherently accurate bullet design based on external ballistics. The problem with that for me is that ballistics are different for a 185gr plug than they are for a 230gr HP, etc... Ballistics will also differ when fired from a rifled barrel vs. a hex barrel. and on material of the slug (or so I'm led to believe) . Based on these little unmentioned details, I would have to look very doubtfully on any statement claiming that a "caliber" was more accurate, vs. a statement claiming a certain "projectile" was more accurate. and then that all goes to hell when you mix in range and velocity! (the whole arguement just calls for more wood in the stove and another libation...) :scrutiny:

bigfatdave
December 13, 2010, 08:28 PM
Oh, I might believe that a .45acp is closer to spherical and doesn't have to endure crossing the sonic barrier, but at handgun distances? Really?

Until I see data from clamped barrels on the same receiver (Contender, I guess?) fired under varying conditions with varying loads in each caliber, I'm not buying it.
I think the "forty-five is more accurate" is simply an artifact of good triggers on even beat-up 1911 pistols compared to comparatively inferior triggers on the most common 9x19 and fo-tay guns (DA poly models) ... and it likely has nothing to do with the rounds' inherent qualities.

PabloJ
December 13, 2010, 09:46 PM
So whats the most accurate carry/combat pistol you have or have experienced that doesnt exceed $1,000? For me the Sig P220 Combat 45 is the most accurate, but for carry the ultimate 9mm is my Heckler and Koch P7 PSP 9mm. Both with the right ammo will hover around 1" at 25 yards. Whats your special tack driving protection piece?:cool::cool:
I looked over $600 possibility marked 745. It's single action S&W cal. 45ACP pistol with target grade micrometer rear sight and excellent single action trigger. It seemed to be very well put together so it should be quite accurate target/combat 1911 type of gun.

Hangingrock
December 13, 2010, 09:49 PM
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/MP9%2004-30-10/IMG_2001.jpg
Shot from standing position with an M&P9 @25yds two (15) shot groups. The M&P9 is stock except for the sights front Novak Night sight and 10-8 U Notch plain rear sight.

The strings were in a compressed time period. I have no idea what the mechanical accuracy is of the M&P9 as Iíve never benched the pistol. As for the ammunition reloads from a Dillon SQ-DB not tweaked for accuracy but functionality.

Is the pistol the most accurate for under $1000 I canít tell you that. From my perspective functionality aces accuracy thatís to say good enough for the requirements of usage.

bds
December 13, 2010, 10:09 PM
These are shot groups from 4.5" M&P45 using Promo plinking loads shot off hand at 10 and 15 yards. My W231/HP38 loads produce similar shot groups at 15-20 yards fairly consistently.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=131638&stc=1&d=1291482509

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=131639&stc=1&d=1291482509

GunTech
December 14, 2010, 09:37 AM
Is this another P7 is the ultimate gun thread?

One has to answer why HK discontinued the pistol if it were so clearly superior than anything else? 1911 makers are selling guns that cost much more by the bushel, and even HK is selling high priced polymer guns.

As noted, there is no data, only opinions. And this just another thread started by the same OP with the same basic theme. We get you think the P7 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Further, you should note that this is really the most accurate USED sub $1000 carry/combat pistol. I know of no source of NIB sub $1000 P7s.

Even if you look at what the P7 sold for when it was a regular HK item, and adjust for inflation, it still works out to be something more like a $1300 gun when sold retail.

DrLaw
December 14, 2010, 09:41 AM
I use my stock Taurus PT1911 in competition and it does fine by me. I am not the best shot, but I consistently take home local area trophies. I also have a Ruger P85 that does fairly well, too. Both of those were well under $1000.00

I also have a Mauser HSc that is pretty decent on accuracy, too. I have carried an HSc as an off-duty gun in the past (Illinois does not allow honest citizens concealed carry yet).

The Doc is out now. :cool:

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