1,000 yard rifle?


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Mark-Smith
December 11, 2010, 02:07 AM
If you were going to build a useful rifle that could hit a target at 1,000 yards with decent accuracy day in and day out, at the best intersection of cost vs utility - what would you use?

Caliber?

Optics?

Stock?

Barrel?

Receiver?

Trigger?

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esheato
December 11, 2010, 02:41 AM
How much do you want to spend? And the gun is the cheap part in this equation....match ammo over time will dwarf the initial hardware cost.

Mark-Smith
December 11, 2010, 02:44 AM
As little as possible while not cutting out the 'hit something at 1,000 yards that you're aiming at'.

PzGren
December 11, 2010, 03:32 AM
As little as possible while not cutting out the 'hit something at 1,000 yards that you're aiming at'.

Hit what? A Dinty Moore can?:D

Mark-Smith
December 11, 2010, 03:43 AM
Hit what? A Dinty Moore can?

A coyote?

NCsmitty
December 11, 2010, 06:46 AM
This site will give you hours of reading and insight to choose what's best for your application.

http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html




NCsmitty

Geno
December 11, 2010, 07:23 AM
Caliber? .260 Rem

Optics? Nightforce 5.5-22X56

Stock? B&C Adjust Tactical

Barrel? Kreiger

Receiver? Surgeon

Trigger? Timney

You're looking at a good $4,500.00 to $5,000.00 for such a custom-built rifle all set-up. If you need to hit a coyote at 1,000 yards, save your money and get a course on stalking game, then buy an off-the-shelf rifle.

JMHO.

Geno

Skylerbone
December 11, 2010, 07:34 AM
That Geno got some spensive taste but that combo he whipped up do look tasty! At my skill level, even after 30 years of shooting won't allow for 1,000 yard shots but I've never practiced for them either. I found the "ground pound" technique of walking off 800 of those yards to be an easier, less skills intensive method for dealing with distance. Other guys could probably make that shot after rolling down the truck window (and spending years with the rifle and scope to make it possible).

coug
December 11, 2010, 07:46 AM
optics/ vortex

barrel/ heart

action/ Remington 700

stock/ HS presision

base/rings/ lupold MK IV

trigger/ jewel or timiny

case/ 6.5X47 or 6.5x284

im sure this will do and if you have the action already it will only cost around $1800/$2000 total set up.

USSR
December 11, 2010, 07:53 AM
If you were going to build a useful rifle that could hit a target at 1,000 yards with decent accuracy day in and day out, at the best intersection of cost vs utility - what would you use?

I have had 2 rifles built specifically for 1,000 yard F Class shooting. The first was a .30-06, and the second was a 6.5x55. While the .30-06 is and always will be a fine choice for such shooting when using a heavy bullet such as the 190SMK, the recoil generated as compared to the smaller and flatter shooting 6.5's takes a bit of the "fun" out of it. There are several good choices in in 6.5mm such as 6.5x55, .260, 6.5x47, 6.5-.284, and 6.5-06. What is important is that you get a good barrel and smith, and lay in some quality Lapua brass.

the best intersection of cost vs utility

Caliber? 6.5x55

Optics? Leupold 6.5-20X LR

Stock? McMillan

Barrel? Krieger

Receiver? Winchester or Remington

Trigger? Jewell

Buying a used rifle for the action and selling off all the other parts, reduces your initial outlay substantially. Then pick up the parts you want on your rifle when they are being sold by individuals or are on sale. With a little patience, you can have a very respectable 1,000 yard rifle assembled for in the neighborhood of $2000 sans scope.

Don

Jim Watson
December 11, 2010, 08:08 AM
A friend just finished such a rifle. He has a Barnard action with trigger, and a Broughton barrel. I don't know the brand of stock. Nightforce BR scope. His is a .308 for F-T/R but you could get a 6.5 or 7mm and cut down on windage.

Soupy44
December 11, 2010, 08:30 AM
I've shot high power matches at 1000y with a Remington 40X in .308. Using match ammo, on a calm day, I had no trouble keeping it in the 10 ring which I believe was 2ft in diameter. On a windy day though, it can be a crap shoot.

I don't know how well you'll be able to make a sheap 1000y gun.

coug
December 11, 2010, 08:32 AM
you can do all of this or go buy a savage in 6.5x284 and for most of us get the same results. but you spent about a thousand less. the only real problem in doing this is that you loose all bragging rights:) that being said I have my bragging guns and my savage guns. the only good thing about not being able to have all your rifles custom built, I can't seem to tell any difrence on paper from my customs and my savage rifles oon paper:)

HKGuns
December 11, 2010, 08:42 AM
There's a whole bunch of rifles that can shoot a thousand yards. At that range it's the shooter, not the rifle, who will be the problem. Someone who practices and hand loads could likely make that shot with an off the rack bolt action. Someone who's never taken that shot before couldn't do it with the most expensive gear money can buy.

That is my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.

Kachok
December 11, 2010, 08:51 AM
A 1,000 yd rifle on the cheap. OK here you go, choice of action is simple a used Savage 110 the action is as strong as anything in the buisness and with it's barrel nut design and floating bolt face there simply is not a better set up to start with. $175 at the local pawn shop.
For caliber I would choose somthing very fast with very high BC, 7mm rem mag, 270 WSM, 7mm WSM, 6.5-284, 243 WSSM, 300 Win mag. I would probably perfer one of the short actions because their microscopic advantage make a visiable difference at 1,000 It all depends on what I am hitting at 1,000 yards :)
Optics Millett or Mueller target scopes in the range of 25-32 power. The 6-25x56 with 1/10 MOA adjustments is about as accurate as anything out there for only $450 if I was trying to do this on the super cheap though the Mueller Eraticator 8.5-25x 50m is right around $200
For the barrel a long and thick Shilen is a solid choice for $300
For triggers a good Timney is a worthwhile investment of $125
For a stock I would have to go with the Choate Ultimate Sniper stock if I were on a tight budget. under $200
There you have it a super 1,000yd rifle for right around $1,000. Whie this is will probably not win you any gold medals it will win you plenty of bets/free lunches if your hunting buddy is the betting type :)

coug
December 11, 2010, 08:54 AM
I agree. every savage I have owned is a better than .5 min rifle. you can spend all the money you want and it just don't get any better. but you can make them shoot long strings better.

mgkdrgn
December 11, 2010, 08:54 AM
Why build one? I have one for sale on GB right now.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205366794

HKGuns
December 11, 2010, 08:58 AM
Agree very much on the Sako......even their hunting rifle triggers break like glass right out of the box.

I've not shot one of the newer Winchesters, but the one's I own currently, there is no comparison on the quality of the triggers out of the box.

But, again, it is a matter of knowing your rifle and its performance or quirks. It isn't easy to shoot with a crappy trigger at 1000 yards, but it can be done.

coug
December 11, 2010, 09:01 AM
hey not a bad deal. this guy won't know what way to go lots of great options. oh by the way. I didn't get off in time to go get my new tika yesterday. I hope maybe monday. they are closed on weekends im at work anyway.

Kachok
December 11, 2010, 09:22 AM
I think everybody know about my love affair with Tikka/Sako but for a budget buildup I would stick to the savages since aftermarket for Tikka/Sako is few, far between, and expensive once you find it. Now if this thread was all about making the perfect long range lightweight hunting rifle my buildup would look somthing like this.
Buy a T3 270 WSM
Put a Nikon scope one it.
There you are the perfect hunting rifle buildup :evil:

jpwilly
December 11, 2010, 10:23 AM
Caliber? 6.5x284 NORMA

Optics? Nightforce BR 12-42x56mm

Stock? Laminated OEM

Barrel? Savage OEM

Receiver? Savage Target

Trigger? Accutrigger OEM

Cost, rifle Savage Model 12 F Class $1400 Optics $1300 + Mount and rings...good luck!

Sebastian the Ibis
December 11, 2010, 10:47 AM
jpwilly nailed it:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/savage-f-tr-team-world-beaters-on-a-budget/

BrocLuno
December 11, 2010, 11:04 AM
Things don't sit still and 1000 yds flight time means possibility of a bad hit :(

Redneck with a 40
December 11, 2010, 11:20 AM
7mm mag, 24" heavy barrel. The BC on 7mm bullets is awesome, its fast and flat.

Trent
December 11, 2010, 11:28 AM
My first 1000 yard hits were on a stock Savage 112 in 300 Win Mag, stainless fluted barrel, with a Leupold 6-12x scope.

The barrel finally wore out this year; fouls up after only a few shots due to throat erosion. In 2008 my ammo load technique and shooting technique both peaked, and I was able to shoot an average of .92" groups at 300 yards over the course of the year (unfortunately the farmer passed away, where I had longer range access, so now 300 is the longest I can go..). This was on the factory barrel, the only modification I made besides refining the ammo load over time was the addition of an Ultimate Sniper stock. (Goofy name, great stock!).

This year I hit the 2000 round mark through the factory barrel, and I now have to clean it every 3 shots to remove fouling in order to hold ANY sort of decent group. Even with this tedious extra step, I get occasional fliers from crown wear.

The weapon is currently stripped and waiting for Krieger. New barrel should be fitted by June 2011 (they have quite the backlog for fitting actions).

Robert
December 11, 2010, 12:55 PM
http://demigodllc.com/
Check out Zak's site. There is a wealth of information about long range shooting to be found there.

12guagecody
December 11, 2010, 02:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7KryjHnRrc

Geno
December 11, 2010, 05:06 PM
If you want to go an effective, but less expensive set-up, look into the following:

M700 Police .308 Win: $899.00

Ferrell 20 MOA base: $110.00

Mark 4, 30 mm rings: $149.00

SFWA 30 mm Scope (10X, 16X or 20X): $299.00

For $1,457.00, you'll be into a nice starter rig that will double as an awesome varminter. :D You would do as well with a Winchester Stealth. JMHO.

Geno

trultemor
December 11, 2010, 05:23 PM
The budget way:


Caliber? 6,5x55

Optics? Schmidt and Bender 10x42 PM II

Stock? stock

Barrel? stock 74cm

Receiver? Sauer 200 STR

Trigger? stock

Dont cost to much and ammo with good BC are cheap and plentiful.

Casefull
December 11, 2010, 05:45 PM
There's a whole bunch of rifles that can shoot a thousand yards. At that range it's the shooter, not the rifle, who will be the problem. Someone who practices and hand loads could likely make that shot with an off the rack bolt action. Someone who's never taken that shot before couldn't do it with the most expensive gear money can buy.

That is my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.

Amen to that...it is that way with everything.

Afy
December 11, 2010, 05:51 PM
A lot of calibers will get you to 1000 without an issue. Top of my head, 6 BR, 6.5x47, .260 Rem, .308, 7-08, .300 WM, 7.5 Swiss, .338 LPM et al.
Scopes anything from a Tasco to a March.
Even a .22 lr will do in a pinch.
What you do need is a lot of time beind the rifle and a lot of ammo to train your self to read mirage and wind.
Good fun to learn and shoot accurately at long range.

Zak Smith
December 11, 2010, 08:08 PM
Thanks to Gus for posting a link to my site.

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/icon/D100_3368_img.jpg
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/)


I compete with two rifles primarily in long-range matches, an AI-AW in .260 or 7mm RM with a S&B 3-12 on top and a silencer on the end.

http://demigodllc.com/photo/BSR-2009.04/smaller/D463_0883_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/photo/BSR-2009.04/?small=D463_0883_img.jpg)

nipprdog
December 11, 2010, 08:28 PM
If you were going to build a useful rifle that could hit a target at 1,000 yards with decent accuracy day in and day out, at the best intersection of cost vs utility - what would you use?

Caliber?

Optics?

Stock?

Barrel?

Receiver?

Trigger?

As little as possible while not cutting out the 'hit something at 1,000 yards that you're aiming at'.

A coyote?

OP, what is the longest range you've shot at?

Mark-Smith
December 12, 2010, 03:24 AM
OP, what is the longest range you've shot at?

100 yards. That said, I'd love to try something past that, something challenging, and hopefully, have the only error in accuracy coming from me, rather than the gun. If I stick the gun in a bench rest and it can hit a target in the same 2' area time and time again at 1,000 yards, that's good enough for me.

If a stock Savage 116 in .30-06 can do that, then that's the gun for me heh.

ChronoCube
December 12, 2010, 03:41 AM
Check out Mag30th's channel on Youtube. He does a lot of 1000 yd shooting, maybe you'll find some ideas there.

mljdeckard
December 12, 2010, 04:25 AM
About 18 months ago, I was translating in Africa for some Marines doing training for the locals. I escorted some visiting officers down to the scout/sniper squad, where they marveled at the shooting and gear. As we walked away, one of them asked me the same question. I told him the same thing I'll tell you.

Those rifles cost north of $3500. But most of what you need can be done for less than $1000. One should also realize, that if you don't know what you're doing with a bare minimum rifle, the other upgrades aren't going to help you anyway.

The pawn shops are full of rifles who were bought by guys who wanted to do the sniper thing, shot them for 100 rounds, realized that this was going to be a lot of work, lost interest, and sold them to get an AR or when their wives got pregnant.

My preference is Remington, but that certainly isn't the only choice. A Remington 700 with a varmint barrel and a synthetic stock, such as the VS model, is a great place to start. There are all kinds of trigger upgrades, but just start with the stock trigger, and have it lightened to about three pounds. It will be a while before a trigger is limiting you.

For glass, you need a 30mm tube. If it doesn't have a 30mm tube, it doesn't have the full range of clicks to get out to 1000. If you want to do it like the snipers do it, you need a reticle marked off in mils, and you need to learn the math to use them to estimate range. (When they do it, it doesn't look like estimation at all.)

You don't need a new stock, but if your cheek rest is too low, you might get a cheek piece to raise you up. That's a lot cheaper than a AI or B&C upgrade.

.308 is the benchmark. Some say that if you KNOW you will be shooting a lot out to 1000 yards or more, you need something with 'magnum' in the description. I know a lot of coyote hunters. I don't know many (pretty much none) who want to take shots longer than 300 yards. And most of them use 22-250.

Get a good bolt-action .22. Shoot it until you can put them through a quarter at 100 yards without thinking about it. If you can't do that, all this long-range stuff is blowing smoke.

Mark-Smith
December 12, 2010, 04:43 AM
Check out Mag30th's channel on Youtube. He does a lot of 1000 yd shooting, maybe you'll find some ideas there.

Good stuff - does he shoot any modern rifles?

Mark-Smith
December 12, 2010, 04:50 AM
Those rifles cost north of $3500. But most of what you need can be done for less than $1000. One should also realize, that if you don't know what you're doing with a bare minimum rifle, the other upgrades aren't going to help you anyway.

$1,000 is fine by me!

Get a good bolt-action .22. Shoot it until you can put them through a quarter at 100 yards without thinking about it.

I can already do that with a magazine-fed .22 with plinking ammo and a horrible scope. Getting close with an AR-15 and just iron sights (if I could see the bullseye at 100 yards with my naked eye, it'd be a bit easier heh).

I've been shooting rifles on and off since I was 8, but it's only been in the last year or so I've gotten into it.

.308 is the benchmark.

Would .30-06 work as well?

MacDuff
December 12, 2010, 06:35 AM
www.snipercountry.com

mljdeckard
December 12, 2010, 08:40 AM
It's not that an '06 won't work, it has just kind of been put 'in between'. The whole advantage of the .308 (and the other cartridges that are derived from ot that you might also look at, such as 7mm-08 and .260 Rem,) is that it is a short-action cartridge. Understand, most bolt rifles these days come in two general models, long action and short action. Long action calibers include the '06, 25-06, .270, etc, and the longer magnums. The reason that the .308 came about in the first place was to get '06-level performance out of a shorter cartridge. If you were going to bump up to a long-action rifle, why keep an '06, you might as well get a magnum, right?

The majority of accessories and aftermarket parts are directed towards short action setups, like the Remington 700. With the wide variety of loading options for both .308 and 30-06, the advantage of the -06 doesn't seem very significant. You still have to do a little math to get it out to 1000 yards.

kludge
December 12, 2010, 10:37 AM
Savage Model 12 F Class in 6.5-284 is $1437 MSRP.
Model 12 LRP in .260 Rem is $1081.
Model 111 Long Range Hunter in .260 Rem is $962 (26" barrel and adjustable muzzle brake).
--- this is probably the best value proposition ---
Model 11 FCNS in .260 Rem is $675 (not heavy barrel).

You could probably find a Model 10 or 16 (if you prefer stainless) with Accustock used for around $500-$600 and then send it to McGowen to put a 26" 6.5-284 barrel on it for another $300. That's what I did (not in this caliber though).

I would go for a 6.5 or 7mm cartridge for 1000 yards. By 300-400 yards the .30 calibers have less energy, and the 6.5 and 5's shoot a lot flatter.

ChronoCube
December 12, 2010, 01:04 PM
Good stuff - does he shoot any modern rifles?

Apparently yes, Weatherby Vanguard in 300 Win Mag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HbUvZ9Rq6s

Zak Smith
December 12, 2010, 01:27 PM
I'm involved in a lot of field-style long-range matches in this region. The average "low end entry level" rifle is more like $2000-2500 all said and done. This is more realistic price for a entry level setup. I say this because a standard Remington HB .308 will run around $700-900, then you add a bipod and a sling and bases and rings you're a few hundred bucks above that, and you will be hard pressed to get a scope that is worthwhile for long-range shooting for under $1000.

If you give me a 30 year old sporter with a Redfield hunting scope on it, I bet I can get it to make hits at 1000 yards, but it's in no way a decent setup for shooting arbitrary distance targets out to 1000 yards in the field or under time pressure.

For comparison, the average rifle system cost for the top-10 competitors at the Steel Safari is between $6500 and $10,000, when you count a $3000-6000 rifle, $2200-3400 scope, suppressor, and other accessories (and not counting reloading equipment). I am not saying this is required, but it sure helps.

Coal Dragger
December 12, 2010, 01:33 PM
^ You forget to figure in your ammo bill to gain a level of reasonable proficiency at doping the wind, making good ranging calls etc.

Zak Smith
December 12, 2010, 01:35 PM
I didn't forget it. From the link I posted before
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/

Pay Once For Good Gear - It's Worth It
Some of the equipment discussed in this article is expensive-- really expensive. Let's get this out of the way: long range shooting is not cheap, but the rifles and optics are not where the expense lies. Long range shooting is expensive because it requires a lot of practice to become really good, and practice means time and ammunition.

Many people balk at spending $1000 or more on a rifle or scope. This is misguided. Spending money for good equipment in these two areas especially are some of the best places to spend money in a precision rifle system. Along with the rifle action, stock, and mounts, these costs are fixed over the life of the rifle. The cost of training, ammunition, and barrels dramatically eclipses those fixed costs.

To illustrate the point, let's analyze the cost of training with a high-end factory precision rifle (AI-AE) using a top of the line S&B or US Optics scope for 5 years. A rifleman with a moderate but regular training schedule might shoot 3000 per year. If he is shooting 308, a realistic barrel life might be 8000 rounds. Over the 5 years, that will be 15,000 rounds and 2 barrels. For ammunition, we will use a conservative estimate of what reloaded ammunition might cost. Let's assume he takes 2 rifle classes in that period, travels to one large match per year, and uses one tank of gas per month practicing locally.

Rifle purchase cost $2500 (not counting first barrel)
Scope purchase cost $2100
Fixed Cost Total $4600
Two replacement barrels $1200
15,000 reloads $6000
Consumables Cost Total $7200
Two classes enrollment $1600
Two classes travel & lodging $2000
Five major match entry fee $ 875
Five matches travel & lodging $5000
Five local matches per year
entry & gas money $2400
Total Training Cost $11,875

It's clear that both consumable costs and training costs will totally eclipse the fixed rifle and optics costs by a factor of four over a five year period. If you plan on shooting regularly to achieve a superior level of proficiency, it makes sense to buy the best rifle and scope you possibly can. To put it another way, why make a $500 compromise when selecting the rifle or scope when it could put the $1000 you've invested in a rifle class or national match at risk?
I urge anyone interested in getting in to long range shooting to read that article.

Coal Dragger
December 12, 2010, 01:40 PM
Ah I didn't follow your link. Even reloading, the component costs will still be very high probably higher now than when you wrote your article. Unlike shooting pistol where I can cast my own bullets, that is not an option for high powered rifle practice at long distances.

JoelSteinbach
December 12, 2010, 01:42 PM
My long range target gun, built for me by a good friend, Panda Action 308, Douglas 28" #9 barrel, Jewel, 2oz trigger,Lone Wolf adjustable stock. Action is glued into the stock, kelby rings, and a Leupold 6 X 20 scope. THis bad boy weighs in at about 18 pounds

1stmarine
December 12, 2010, 02:05 PM
What do you want to do with the rifle?

DuncanSA
December 12, 2010, 02:27 PM
One could look back a few years to Bisley shooting. This was real 1 000 yard stuff with a No.4 Lee-Enfield. Iron sights, but with the acceptance that you were trying to hit a body of troops rather than an individual. On the range you had to watch the 100 yards wind flags and anticipate where the bullet would land when you pulled the trigger.

Zak Smith
December 12, 2010, 02:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezjHpaqEx5Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnAkfSl0ILk

taliv
December 12, 2010, 03:14 PM
fwiw, i'm on pace to shoot 3000 rnds exactly the first year (12 mo) through my long range bolt gun, as i've had it almost 6 months and have almost 1500 rnds through it. however, as i'm not shooting 308, my barrel life is dramatically shorter and i already ordered another barrel and will probably have it installed in Jan/feb.

Mark-Smith
December 12, 2010, 07:02 PM
What do you want to do with the rifle?

Just target shooting for the 1,000 yard stuff, but it'd be nice if it could be used for hunting deer, pronghorn, etc at closer ranges as well.

Mark-Smith
December 13, 2010, 10:05 AM
It's not that an '06 won't work, it has just kind of been put 'in between'. The whole advantage of the .308 (and the other cartridges that are derived from ot that you might also look at, such as 7mm-08 and .260 Rem,) is that it is a short-action cartridge. Understand, most bolt rifles these days come in two general models, long action and short action. Long action calibers include the '06, 25-06, .270, etc, and the longer magnums. The reason that the .308 came about in the first place was to get '06-level performance out of a shorter cartridge. If you were going to bump up to a long-action rifle, why keep an '06, you might as well get a magnum, right?

The majority of accessories and aftermarket parts are directed towards short action setups, like the Remington 700. With the wide variety of loading options for both .308 and 30-06, the advantage of the -06 doesn't seem very significant. You still have to do a little math to get it out to 1000 yards.

What's the advantage of a short-action cartridge over a long-action one?

NELSONs02
December 13, 2010, 11:01 AM
Short Action pros : The size and weight of the rifle, short actions are stronger/more rigid (debatable).


My budget 1000 yard rifle:

Savage 10fcp HS in .260 Rem.
Leupold VX-II 6-18x40

1stmarine
December 13, 2010, 12:30 PM
I asked you what did you want it for because you have to start there. You mention target and for that you have a lot of good options in several calibers.
I would start by selecting the best bullets and then work from there.
the best bullet selections right now are int he .30, 6.5 and 6mm calibers.
The smaller the caliber the less terminal performance so the hunting range gets smaller.
I am not sure about cost considerations but you probably have the best options in the calibers above.

.30 caliber.
You have match bullets from BC .550 to .711 that require specific case loads and barrels.

308 Win is easy and affordable very good up to 180gr. for many purposes.
You have affordable Remington 700 and Savage (10FP) that deliver .5moa and better out of the box.
30-06 Win is easy and affordable very good up to 200gr. for many purposes.
Magnums
30 Winmag is easy and affordable very good up to 200gr. with flat shooting for many purposes.This is only needed if you want to hunt at those ranges.
30 RUM is somehow affordable very good up to 240gr. but systems selection is limited so you might need to build a good rifle and accurize it. This is only needed if you want to hunt big game at those ranges. but not the ideal for competition hp shooting.

260. (6.5mm) You have great match bullets with BC .550 to .60
260 Rem is a very good round and can find nice entry level systems with .5 MOA out of the box like Remington 700, Savage, Tika.
Some folks with the AR-15 Grendel case are also getting great results with the lapua scenar bullet and plenty of round for a 300-400 yards deer kill.

.243 (6mm). Great match bullets from .480 to .560 BC.
you could use the popular .243 Winchester for affordability but the best performance is based on the Bench Rest Cases like the popular BR, BRX and BR ackley (improved). Also there is a new 6mmAR that shows great results.
As usual if you want AR consider the bullet since normally the best bullets cannot be seated properly to load in the AR-15 magazine.
In any case consider the AR-10 too that has more options due to the longer mag and actions.

Before you decide on a rifle look closely at the bullet first then the case you need to get the bullet where you want it, the action, A good match barrel and very important, the scope. Also get some ballistic software and a PDA to calculate your trajectory and plan in reloading to get the best of it. There are great loads out there from hornady to lapua scenars but you pay for them.


I hope this helps.
E.

Mark-Smith
December 13, 2010, 12:42 PM
Between 308, 30-06 and 338, is there anything that would put one of them in front of the others?

BC? Average cost per round? Useful for more than one application (ie, target practice at the range and hunting in the field, etc)

Zak Smith
December 13, 2010, 01:07 PM
308, 30-06 and 338,
.308 is an entry level, marginally competent long-range cartridge. Its main advantage is that match ammo is ubiquitous. Today, few people use .30-06 in a purpose-built long-range rifle because it is marginally better than .308, but there are much better choices. .338LM/RUM have substantially better long range ballistics and terminal effects but cost much more. Unless you need 250-300 grains on target at 1200+ yards they are overkill.

If you don't reload, buy a .308 as a first long-range rifle.

If you do (or are willing to use more rare factory match ammo), get a .260


http://demigodllc.com/photo/260-misc/icon/D100_9642_img.jpg
article | The Case for .260 Remington: A Better Cartridge For Practical Long-Range Shooting http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington)

1858
December 13, 2010, 02:05 PM
If you don't reload, buy a .308 as a first long-range rifle.

Even if you do reload, a .308 Win is a good way to start and you will learn more about wind from shooting a .308 Win at long range than you will by starting out shooting .260 Rem or 7mm-08 Rem. There's a reason why F-Class (F-TR) limits shooters to .308 Win and .223 Rem ... because it's difficult to shoot those cartridges accurately (sub moa) under variable wind conditions. If you REALLY want to learn to time your shots and read the wind, buy a .22LR and shoot outdoor 100 yard matches. That said, if you start with a .308 Win, you can shoot in F-Class matches to gain experience shooting long range under a time constraint and with the added pressure of a match. I don't know if there are any organized rifle matches in your area but if there are, shooting in a match (pistol or rifle) is nothing like spending an afternoon at the range. Of course, there are better cartridges out there if your intent is to win practical shooting matches, but you can always rebarrel to those cartridges as time, money and interest allow. If you buy a Savage, you can rebarrel the rifle yourself with simple tools and at reasonable cost.

Float Pilot
December 13, 2010, 03:00 PM
ZAK.

Have you ever seen anyone trying to use a 6.5x55 chambered rifle?

My old $600 Swede CG-63 with the GF aperture sights will shoot sub 0.30 groups from the bench, while my $2,000 Rem tactical 300 win mag will only average 0.50 MOA accuracy with a scope.

USSR
December 13, 2010, 03:09 PM
Have you ever seen anyone trying to use a 6.5x55 chambered rifle?


Yeah, Me!

Don
http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/6.5Swede1.jpg

Zak Smith
December 13, 2010, 03:50 PM
1858,

I agree, .308 is a great starter cartridge. I put it the way I did because a LR shooter can be "done" with rifle changes if he goes right to .260 off the bat, since many of them will upgrade their cartridge eventually anyway.

There's a reason why F-Class (F-TR) limits shooters to .308 Win and .223 Rem ... because it's difficult to shoot those cartridges accurately (sub moa) under variable wind conditions.
I've never heard that the reason F-TR exists is because it's harder. From reading various sources I thought it came into being to attract more people to NRA-HP-LR and provide a lower cost or easier entry into the sport.

Float Pilot
Have you ever seen anyone trying to use a 6.5x55 chambered rifle?
I have seen a couple at our matches, but not many. This has nothing to do with the cartridge itself, but more to do with the kinds of rifles that come in 6.5x55 and the other choices available if rebarreling anyway. 6.5x55 when loaded to full power is basically similar to 6.5-294 or .260/.260AI.

1stmarine
December 13, 2010, 04:12 PM
Why .338? It is not the best option for target at 1000 as a primary purpose and will cost you MUCH more.
I mentioned the RUM that could be a great alternative to the .338 for almost anything but I don't even think that you should consider any magnum for a first project unless you want to take down big game at the same yardage.

I agree with Zak and initially I would stick with the .308 win. Both the .308 and .30-06 are very popular and come from a military cartrige. the .308 is the current military cartridge in its version 7.62x51 that replaced the venerable 30-06. You can get a tad more from the 30.06 but not a huge margin so due to versatility and popularity I would stick to the .308 win.

Reasons for .308 win:
- Versatility.
You should expect good results from bullets from 145gr to the 175 match and even higher depending on the twist of rate you choose from your barrel.
- Brass availability and cost.
You have brass that has won many 100 to 1000 yards competitions like the palma brass from lapua. Even some military brass(bullets) can be cheaply found and reloaded with very decent results for practice.
- You have great match bullets form berger, lapua and even hornadies that go well with this case and loads.
- Easy to reload. If you do not reload you can find affordable very high quality ammo. For example you can get Federal match for $15 with Sierra SMKs of 175gr. that are very good for a starter.
- Popularity - Being a cartrige in active duty is always a plus.
- You can take down a deer even past the 600 yards with a good bullet like a nosler TSX 168 or 180gr. Very hard to find any animal in this continent that cannot be stopped with this bullets at shorter ranges up to 300yards.
- Many good system choices. You have baselines that shoot .5 MOA and better out the box for less than $700. For example, Remington 700 police, Reminton SPS tactical, Savage FP1 L1, Tika (I forgot the model).
- Compact systems. Do not need more than 20" barrel for most applications but consider a longer match barrel if you compete.
- You need at least a 1:11 rate of twist even a 1:10 for the longer bullets if the barrel is 20". Though the 1:12 does well with many good loads too but I like a tad more twist due the bullets I select.

You will find an ocean of data around this cartrige to help you out with the load and the system selection. Plan to spend some dollars in a good scope, bipod and othe equipment. Get some software for the PDA to calculate your shots at long range. Once you get your hold you can repeat pretty well due to the .308 consistency.
At those ranges you need to have a system that shoots below .5 MOA. Ideally .25 that might require some improvements. You have multidollar systems that come with .25 out of the box and better but you pay.

I use several in .308 that serve me well:
- Tikka Master Sporter with a Nikon Monarch 6x24x50.
- Remington SPS Tactical with Nikon Monarch 5x20x42.
- FNAR light barrel. with Leupold mark IV 6x5x20x50.

Don't try to save on the scope. W/o this forget about the 1000 yards.

On the "fun" side I have:
- AR-10 type, LAR-8 20" bull with Buckmaster scope.
- SAiga .308 16" accurized and a Simmons scope.

I am very happy with all the systems and I suggest you take a good look at the Remington and Savage above. You can start low budget with amazing results and build from there by adding later stock, and other things but do not need much. They are extremely accurate as delivered.

Bottom line there are many good cartridges out there but for the reasons above I explained it looks like the .308 might work for your needs, specially if you are starting.

Cheers.
E.

1858
December 13, 2010, 04:28 PM
I've never heard that the reason F-TR exists is because it's harder. From reading various sources I thought it came into being to attract more people to NRA-HP-LR and provide a lower cost or easier entry into the sport.

You're probably correct that the F-TR class was established to attract more shooters for the reasons you mentioned, however, F-TR is markedly more difficult than F-O. This probably wasn't by design but it's just the reality of using "inferior" cartridges, lighter rifles and less rigid supports. The fact that Sinclair's F-TR bipod is legal is a disgrace but that's a whole other topic for discussion.

TonyAngel
December 13, 2010, 05:36 PM
I'm new to bolt guns and shooting beyond 300 yards. After having discussed the matter with a bunch of people that I consider to be "in the know" I settled on a .308. Right or wrong, my decision was based primarily on economic concerns. I got my rifle about two months ago and have over 2000 rounds through it. I average 200 rounds per range trip and I get out to the range every chance I get.

If looking at it from that perspective, .308 is the logical choice. Brass is inexpensive (relatively speaking) and plentiful. I can load 500 rounds with around 3lbs. of powder and the projectiles aren't overly expensive. You can cap all of this off with a barrel life of around 5000 rounds. At that mark, I can just have my smith knock an inch off of the back and rechamber the barrel for another 5000 rounds. I don't think that you can get that kind of life out of any barrel chambered for a caliber that has the word "magnum" in it. Even the 30-06, which is only marginally better than the .308, will burn out a barrel much more quickly.

Another consideration is the recoil. My rifle, in it's current form, with a Krieger 22" heavy profile barrel, HSP stock, Nightforce scope and bipod weighs around 14lbs. It feels like a pop gun when I squeeze the trigger.

What all of these factors add up to is a lot more practice, which is what has done me the most good. What I've been told is that shooting a .308 at long distances will make you a better shot in terms of reading wind.

Right or wrong, I'm having loads of fun and I like my .308 and the fact that I can put 200 rounds through it in a session and not feel like I've just survived a rumble.

Mark-Smith
December 13, 2010, 07:03 PM
.308 sounds like the best choice - are there any Savage or Tikka or other similar rifles chambered in .308 y'all would recommend?

Jim Watson
December 13, 2010, 07:10 PM
Without reading the catalogs to you, they each have target, varmint, and "tactical" models that will do a good job on the range. Such rifles are rather heavy for stability in shooting position and barrel heat sink for sustained shooting. So the part about

"it'd be nice if it could be used for hunting deer, pronghorn, etc "

complicates things. My .308 F T/R weighs almost 17 lbs (maximum of 18). I sure would not want to hump that in the woods after game. My 788 .30-30 weighs less than half that and is easy to carry in the woods or haul up a tree stand. But even in the lighter caliber, I would not want to get prone behind it and shoot all morning.

UT PROSIM
December 13, 2010, 07:29 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=121835&d=1274912564
308 win
savage 10fp - $495
Millet trs 1 - $300
B&C medalist -$210

hours and hours of reloading tests, pounds of powder, dry firing, & practicing..... and i am still not good enough to shoot the rifle to its true potential.
im glad i didn't spend 4 grand on a rifle that i could never shoot better than this $900 set up.

sarduy
December 13, 2010, 07:45 PM
Caliber?
.308

Optics?
Leupold 4-10x40 mildot

Stock?
remington 700P stock

Barrel?
remington 700P

Receiver?
remington 700

Trigger?
remington 700P trigger




overall....

get a remington 700P or a sps-varmint/tactical rifle in .308 and add a leupold 4-10x40 scope.

next. get to 1000 yard line and start shooting... untill YOU can hit consistent

taliv
December 13, 2010, 08:26 PM
.308 sounds like the best choice

i just want to reiterate that the most important thing is that you be honest with yourself about expectations. 308 MAY BE the best choice for you, but...

if you would be disappointed buying a 308 and shooting a 1000 yrd F-class match and getting 20-30" groups... or shooting a sniper match and getting 20% 1st rnd hits past 500 yrds...

you need to repeat to yourself that being competitive in long range shooting requires
- money
- dedication to practice
- hand-loading
- a better cartridge than 308win

i'm not trying to discourage anyone here. just be realistic about what YOU want from the rifle.

you can buy a used savage and put a new .260rem/6xc/6.5creedmore/6x47lapua krieger bbl in it, and learn to handload for a modest amount of money. That will be a lot cheaper than buying a 308win and shooting a thousand rounds of match ammo before realizing you really wanted better equipment. (of course, if you're only shooting 100-400 yrds, 308 will do just fine)


Also, imho, too much emphasis is placed on "the shooter doing their part". My 12 y/o daughter shot her first F-class "F open" 600 yrd match in October with my rig and shot a Master score her first match. (if not for a pair of 7s, she would have had a high-master score!) The point is, she knows nothing (yet) about long range shooting or reading wind or anything, and she had a grand total of about 30-40 rounds from a center-fire bolt gun in her life prior to the match, BUT it was fun not frustrating for her. Shooting a 308, she would probably have been lucky to score Expert.

USSR
December 13, 2010, 10:00 PM
few people use .30-06 in a purpose-built long-range rifle because it is marginally better than .308

You can get a tad more from the 30.06 but not a huge margin

the 30-06, which is only marginally better than the .308

There seems to be a serious misconception here. The .30-06 when properly loaded for LR shooting is more than "marginally" better than the .308. I falls neatly into a niche between the .308 and .300WM, generating 200fps more velocity than the .308 with the very same bullet. I would take a 190SMK at 2900fps any day of the week over anything the .308 sends at 1k, especially where wind is involved. I have shot them both in 1,000 yard F Class, and if they ever open up the F Class T/R class to .30-06, there is no doubt in my mind that it would quickly dominate that class. Just MHO.

Don

pdd614
December 13, 2010, 10:24 PM
Don, I was just about to make the same point as you about the 30-06. In fact, I am building a rock barreled 30-06, and will be willing to bet it will give my 6.5x47 a run for its money. You just can't argue with good barrel life and sending those 200+ grain bthp's at a respectable velocity.

Will write up a full comparison on the two rifles/chamberings when I get the 06 running.

Mark-Smith
December 13, 2010, 10:33 PM
Say I'm not out to win any long range championships, just to satisfy myself and improve my skill at shooting, and go hunting with the same rifle a few times a year.

I've used crappy rifles in the past, and I'd love to have the only thing holding me back be myself, rather than the equipment. If I had the money to splash out on a AI AWP/AWM, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. However, a Tikka or Savage is more in line with my budget heh. A Leupold rather than a Nightforce.

I've used a .30-06 rifle often enough in the past to know it'd work well hunting. Other than that, I haven't used a rifle chambered in anything above .223, so thus the search for some good advice :D

In terms of skill, I can put 15 shots through a hole the size of a quarter or less at 100 yards with a friend's el-cheapo magazine-fed .22 rifle, with a terrible scope and bargain bin .22 ammo. I'd love to have something that'd go through the same hole at 100 yards when clamped in a bench rest. :D

Skylerbone
December 13, 2010, 11:09 PM
pdd, will that -06 use a "standard" 1:12" or faster? Just asking as there tends to be a difference in rate (1:10 for most .308 Win. vs 1:12 for most 30-06) the OP may not understand. Since he's on a budget that probably doesn't include an immediate rebarrel you may want to let him know if you're comparing what is commercially available (off the rack) or not.

USSR
December 14, 2010, 07:06 AM
Skylerbone,

You've got that ass backwards. Most .30-06's have a 1-10" twist and most .308's have a 1-12" twist.

Don

pdd614
December 14, 2010, 07:07 AM
Skylerbone, I had an extra mike rock 30 cal blank sitting around for this 30-06 build. It is a 10 twist, medium palma contour. And Don has it right again, most factory 30-06's have 10 twist barrels.

Skylerbone
December 14, 2010, 09:21 AM
Indeed I did and indeed they do. How I managed to blank that up twice in one post I don't know. Stupid Monday Night Football! Stupid me!

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 12:24 PM
The 30.06 is a great case. keep in mid that this case was replaced by the .308 but it is still very popular. When I mentioned marginally I referred to the average load. Obviously you can customize amazing loads for the 30-06 as you could for the .308. The .308 can push a 180gr bullet with a very high BC up to 2.700. The 30-06 can do this about 2780 or 2800 fps depending how comfortable are you stepping into the red.
In any case I mostly do long range hunting and target up to 500 yards.
For more info about 1000 yards target and competition somebody might be giving better info about the long palma rifles. I think the post asked for a sort of do it all versatile rifle.

I found this link that gives you some great information about loads as well as bullets and systems selection.

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html

Personally I didn't find anything in a Nightforce or the Savarosky that the LEupold or the Monarch could not do.
Again, take a good look at the new Remington SPS tactical ...http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-sps-tactical-aac-sd.aspx

Also the Savage FPs http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10%20PRECISION%20CARBINE

or the Tikka T3 tactical.

http://www.tikka.fi/t3models.php?tac

All below .5 MOA out the box for a reasonable cost.


Cheers,
E.

Zak Smith
December 14, 2010, 12:28 PM
When comparing long range scopes, they are differentiated by both features and quality. Many people forget the former, or do not really understand what the different features mean or do.

http://demigodllc.com/photo/AI-AWSM/icon/A100_1910_img.jpg
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part II - Optics http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/)

USSR
December 14, 2010, 02:04 PM
The .308 can push a 180gr bullet with a very high BC up to 2.700. The 30-06 can do this about 2780 or 2800 fps depending how comfortable are you stepping into the red.

The .308 can push a 190SMK to 2700fps, and the .30-06 to 2900fps, and both stay within SAAMI pressure specs.

Don

Float Pilot
December 14, 2010, 08:07 PM
ZAK

Good article on scopes and the need for lots of elevation adjustment. I can just imagine folks trying to crank the adjustment controls for their 3x9 hunting scope and wondering why it does not work.

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 08:41 PM
Regarding the scopes, what I look for is very simple:

-Make sure that the glass is clear and has a good picture including in low light conditions (dawn and husk) and in my case I like a reliable internal magnification. For this reason I also like the Nikon Monarchs very much since there is plenty of eye relief, clear picture and quick acquisition with lots of "play" w/o loosing sight, even a tad better (may be mi perception) than Leupold that it is hard to beat.
-I like plenty of vertical adjustment. I have used the Leupold target scopes for long range hunting and I am very satisfied with the results the only thing is I wished they had a bit more of the vertical adjustment for extreme long shots so there will be not need to mill the base or tilt the scope forward although sometimes it is the only solution depending on the rifle purpose. I only have one .30 cal bedded like this for 1 mile shots with the RUM cartridge.
The latest Mark 4 model has 145 minutes that it is more than enough for almost any popular magnum caliber/case up to 1500yrds.

-I like the scope to be reliable. Reliability of the click adjustment is paramount. So that means if the click value is .25MOA on the paper it is actually .25 MOA on the field (or very close to that). If you have a quality scope the right adjustment should be .262" that is what the Leupold and Nikon do. Night force and other good ones too of course but MANY OTHERS DO NOT and they adjust to .25" or some other number that needs to be taken into account.
When you get a scope this should be thoroughly tested against your ballistic chart/s or you will end up hitting the dirt at long range. If you have a good software for your pda / laptop this will help you with the calculations. I keep all my load data as well as internal ballistics and external ballistics data in a PDA that for me it is a must unless you always shoot the same loads, bullets and similar conditions all the time. but this is a different subject anyway.

-I like the turrets to be simple and with an easy read and return to zero. The Leupold and Monarch target turrets work well for me as you can keep an easy mark of the knob revolution. I do not care much for the turrets with the range marks built in as you might change the loads, bullets or caliber/rifle and then you need to find generic turrets or convert anyway. This might be useful for the beginner shooter for simplicity but long range is not simple feat anyway so stick to basic function and do your math.

-Alternative to manual correction I use the bullet drop compensator and mil dot reticules and whether you do the corrections with knob or the reticule you should test them with your loads, bullets charts and make sure the scope value and "the mean" value are recognized.

There are many good scopes and it is hard to decide. I think that it is important that you take a look at several scopes, look through them, try out some friend's, if you have the opportunity shoot and see what you like first hand. Before you jump into the latest hottest $2000-$3000 dollar scope (I have done that) I suggest at least take a look at the long range Leupolds and Nikons between the $700-$900 price range. you will be surprised.

I actually found harder to find some other quality equipment like an accurate laser range finder for long range. In the service it was not unusual to see a $14000+s sniper setup, something not feasible for the average civilian specially if you want to have several systems and calibers.

I have three range finders but currently I mostly use the Leica LAF 800 rangefinder.

I hope this helps.
Cheers.
E.

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 08:57 PM
USSR,
What load are you using to get a .308 Winchester case to push a 190gr bullet to 2700fps?
with several IMR's, Varget, H4895 and others I am maxed out at 2550-2600fps.
QuickLoad also says the same so be careful.
Thanks.
E.

Maverick223
December 14, 2010, 09:36 PM
Zak is the expert, and is a wealth of knowledge, but my thoughts are as follows:

Caliber (actually cartridge): I have never cared for the .308Win., and consider it to be a poor excuse for the venerable .30-06Spd., which is a good choice for non-handloaders IMO, but the .260Rem. would be my choice (and will be my next LR rig).

Optics: Premier Reticles Heritage is an excellent choice and affords a great feature set, ruggedness/repeatability, as well as great glass (I am using one of these now). Whatever you choose, put this on a 20MOA+ base for more elevation (I use a 40MOA...why limit yourself because of lack of adjustment).

Stock: A high-end rig will come equipped with a good stock from the factory, but if you are building upon a common action like a Remington I would choose a JAE-700SA or an AICS (I think my next one will be a JAE design).

Barrel: Krieger makes an excellent barrel, though my next rifle will probably use a polygonally rifled Schneider.

Receiver: Again most high-end systems will use a proprietary design, but I really like the GAP Templar action as far as Remmy-type receivers go.

Trigger: Same story here, but Jewell makes a good-un for a aftermarket replacement.

:)

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 09:57 PM
All good recommendations in any case the post owner made clear the need for an entry level rifle to punch paper at 1000 yards and to hunt a moderate ranges so we should keep that in mind in this thread.

Once again consider these rifles:
- Reminghton 700 Police or 700 SPS tac.
- Savage 10FP L1 Tac or the similar newer models.
- Tikka L3 tac.

All .5moa and better out of the box with federal and hornady match ammo.

- Scope Nikon Monarch BDC
- Leupold Mark 4.
Both with 20-24 magnification for target and will perform better than many other more expensive ones.

I hope this helps.
Cheers.
E.

Zak Smith
December 14, 2010, 10:07 PM
I would recommend against the Nikon unless you get one with the target knobs. It looks like most of the models - including the one named - do not. 20x magnification is not required to shoot at 1000 yards, although many square range target shooters seem to like that much.

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 10:41 PM
Zak,
A decent target scope for long range is pretty much recommended.
Three of my Nikon's (the high power BDC long range) all came with 2 type of knobs in the box including beautiful target turrets. I use the target turrets and find them very friendly.
What is important is that the Nikon adjustment is pretty reliable as well as in the Leupolds. I mostly used Leupold until I tried these Monarchs from a friend and I was hooked instantly due to the quality of picture and eye "play". They are sometimes overlooked but the quality of the optics and reliability is in par with the big boys and a bit more affordable specially if you are starting long range like it seems to be the case here. Nikon as well as Kodak and Zeiss have some of the best optics labs in the planet. In fact they provide with lenses and technology to many other optics manufacturers.

I agree the x20 is for certain targets and small varmints only at long range. For large targets and large game even with a x14 magnification you have more than enough for long range. The less magnification might play to your advantage if you are spotting with your scope specially if you are shooting uphill or downhill so you have more field of view to locate the game that you otherwise might miss if the animal only presents for a few seconds.

I guess you might choose to have more magnification and do not end up using it in many cases, depending on the primary purpose.

All good advice here in this website.
Thanks.
E.

Mark-Smith
December 14, 2010, 10:42 PM
For a Tikka T3 - what's the difference between the Tactical and other models? The Tactical version seems to go for about twice what the T3 light does, for example. Is it $500 worth of stock?

dubbleA
December 14, 2010, 10:57 PM
The Nikon with the BDC wouldnt make the short list as a LR reticle IMHO. The heavy lines and the circles make a busy sight picture.
For hunting situations yes, pin point precision accuracy no, even being in the 2nd plane they cover up to much.

Maverick223
December 14, 2010, 11:13 PM
I agree with the above, even on a tight budget the Monarch isn't the right scope (this is coming from someone that owns, recommends, and likes them...for the right task). On the low-end the fixed 10x (or for a little more the 5-15x model) Bushnell Elite 3200 will get you by, but if you are serious about long range shooting, good gear is a must (and for me, that means FFP optics, though costly, are a prerequisite).

:)

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 11:26 PM
Fyi...
I actually had one here behind my back in my office that is waiting for a new .338 lapua is being built and verified that the long range Nikon Monarch BDC comes with 3 set of turrets in the box and not 2.
One set of turrets is the standard with caps that you might see in most pictures.
Another is the big castle target turrets and the 3rd are also large target turrets but oriented to long range as they have another set of large(deep) caps to go on top. All turrets from the standard to the large ones are adjusted easily and keep good track of the adjustment with easy and quick return to zero.
I really like them as they account for many kills over 800 yards even a few past 1200 yards so I have nothing to complain as I have nothing to complain about the Leupold's Mark 4. Never had an issue with either brand.

What works for me, might not work for others but all that I am saying is at least take a look through them as I did one day. I think you will be surprised and let decide what you see and not what you hear be the judge.

If anyone is interested I can send a picture of the scope and what is inside the package.

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 11:27 PM
Nikon no accuracy? LOL!!!

Maverick223
December 14, 2010, 11:33 PM
Nikon no accuracy? LOL!!!I believe dubbleA is simply stating that they have a thick, cluttered, poorly designed reticle which limits your precision as well as obstructs your view...I happen to agree. I also happen to own the scope that you suggested (though I opted for a fine reticle for target work), though I do not find it to be well suited to LR practical shooting (I bought mine for a upcoming .17HMR target rifle build).

BTW, they do not quickly and easily return to zero because there is no zero-stop (at least on mine), so you are forced to count revolutions.

:)

1stmarine
December 14, 2010, 11:52 PM
I understand the initial aversion to such specific reticule but it works as advertised including at long range.
I can find my hold on the reticle, mark it in my notebook and return to in w/o any problems. The reticule is a little more coarse, yes, but I have not found any deer or coyote able to get behind it, even at 1000 yards. In any case I shoot at higher magnification than others at those ranges.
I am not the only one using Monarch and/or Mark 4s and hinting the long range. As I said the optics are superb. That is a fact not an opinion.

Regarding the Rifle tactical versions seem to be more always because of stocks, bedding, trigger, bull barrel and finishing although the baseline/bolt system might be exactly the same or very similar.
After 22 years shooting long range in both the military and the civilian world I can tell you the tactical seems to me a good entrly do it all and do it pretty well type of system, at least to start with. If you want to go for 1000 yards exclusively and win competitions then you need a rifle for that only, if you want a very light rifle to carry all day long and drag it to the mud then there are rifles for this too. I think the tactical will give you a good results as they are very versatile and specially they are accurate that it should be the prime characteristic of a rifle ... and the same for bullet/load for that matter.
I don't think that anyone wants to buy a system to be "inaccurate" but they sell them too.
In case of the tikka T3 tac you also have to add the receiver with the detachable larger magazine that is costly and I think these are also limited imports.

Don't get concerned about the 20" barrel. It is plenty and more accurate than longer barrels.

Personally I would start wiht the Remington 700 SPS tac. or the equivalent Savage and see what I can do out of the box. you will be surprised. although some people like to change stock and everything before they even fire one shot. My take is shoot a bit with it (you need to break in the barrel anyway) and see what you like and dislike. Many rural LEOS in a budget are buying these and report great results out the box.

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
December 15, 2010, 12:20 AM
Maverick223,
I am not sure why you need to count your revolutions. Do you have one of the early Japanese models?
These do not have the zero stop nor they need it. The turn indicator is pretty clear and easy to read so if for example you have 4.15L 5.09U as your zero you can return to it w/o counting any revolutions. Again these are the 5x20 and 6x25 scopes and I don't know if it is the same for other scopes or older models.
In any case I don't use the knobs a lot other than small corrections as for bullet drop I have the bullet trajectory chart mapped to the reticle.
I think that I like the Mark 4 reticle better but the optics and eye "play" I like better the monarch.
Again this design might not work for others but they are 100% accurate and reliable so you can count on that whatever the calculation says can be put in the scope and it will produce what is supposed to produce.
That much I expect of any good scope but it is not always the case, even with some more expensive ones.

Mark-Smith
December 15, 2010, 12:21 AM
Are there any stocks in the under $500 range that are better than the factory ones? I've seen a few for target shooting that look good for the range, but wouldn't hold up very well for hunting. Anything to recommend?

Maverick223
December 15, 2010, 12:39 AM
Maverick223,
I am not sure why you need to count your revolutions. Do you have one of the early Japanese models?Mine is a 6.5-20x44AO, and requires several revolutions for full adjustment (never counted how many, but more than a couple), for a dedicated LRPR I prefer a scope that has no more than 2 revolutions for the entire adjustment range, and more importantly a zero-stop so I can easily find my zero, without having to look at the turret and/or count clicks. For a benchrest type gun, varmint rig, or a hunting rifle I don't believe that is necessary (and in many cases is undesirable), but for LR tactical shooting, it is a must IMO. Furthermore, I really prefer a FFP ballistic reticle with equal graduations based upon the same system of measurement as the adjustments (Mil/Mil is my preference), that way you can quickly make the necessary adjustments using the reticle as your guide...it also makes "Kentucky windage" much easier, neither of these features are available on the Nikon Monarch (even the tactical "X" version).

Anything to recommend?HS Precision makes a decent stock that is well within that budget, and an excellent McMillan stock is almost within reach.

:)

dubbleA
December 15, 2010, 12:43 AM
If anyone is interested I can send a picture of the scope and what is inside the package.



No need to do that, I have several 1" tube Monarchs with BDC reticles . The higher magnifications have 1/8 moa turrets, which simply dont have enough elevation for the long stuff(5x20x 34moa, total 6x24x 30 moa total, 8x32x 20 moa total). This is coming from someone that would dial in rather than to use a hold over for precision. Not saying that they are bad scopes, just that there are better options out there.

I have no experience with them but Nikon offers a Monarch X which feature 30mm main tubes which will not only offer more elevation but will be physically stronger/tougher. They are only offered with the duplex and mil-dot reticle

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f268/dubbleA/scope%20pix/IMG_1533.jpg

1stmarine
December 15, 2010, 12:45 AM
A lot of people will tell you mcmillan and for a good reason. I use them and I am very happy with them. http://www.mcmfamily.com/ is plenty.
The important part is the bedding system. Glass, vs. aluminum etc....
Many opinions, custom jobs and different experiences. As you might know temperature has as much impact in the rifle as it has in the load but initially I would just start with the nice baseline and then decide later.
For example the hoge in the latest Remington 700 tactical SPS I saw a guy at the range the other day with a custom shiming work in the bed and he was getting .35MOA w.o much effort and federal match loads. Very impressive for an out of the box entry tac rifle. Also it comes threaded at the muzzle so you can put a nice muzzle brake in it but watch out for weight in big brakes as they do more harm than good. You want a brake that in the end it is not going to interfere a lot with the innate accuracy of your system.
I did extensive research on this in the last 3 years and even found "popular" expensive muzzle brakes that can be counterproductive.
With "extensive research" I don't mean internet research but actual field and scientific research. I have close to 100 muzzle brakes mostly custom built in T6, SS, titanium and other alloys along with some Vais, Harrels and other most popular brakes. I wrote an article on this.

Cheers.
E.

1stmarine
December 15, 2010, 01:06 AM
I hear you.
Actually there was a Mark 4 that the military requested with a 1MOA click adjustment. I thought that was crazy at first but it makes sense in an environment where you need to do things quickly and do them reasonably well, not perfect, simply well. I guess the enemy doesn't care if you hit them with a 175SMK in either side of the belly button. LOL!

The main reason for me was the clarity of the picture and the eye "play". 1/8 click for me is ok as it gets very accurate for final fine adjustment over long distances. Again I don't use the turret a lot and work with the reticule for drop. By the way the mil-dot reticle is great too. I use it and nothing to complain about it.

Whatever the method the main thing is to do the homework and have a good ballistics chart properly mapped to the scope.

Again, with the nikon Monarchs and leupold Mark 4s I have only found consistency and reliability.

I cannot say 100% the same of all the scopes I have some more expensive than those.

Cheers,
E.

Zak Smith
December 15, 2010, 02:00 AM
Actually there was a Mark 4 that the military requested with a 1MOA click adjustment.
The M3 turret and it is still for sale.

Jahmby68
December 15, 2010, 02:16 AM
I'd use a Sako 85 Varmint in 260 Rem. 24" Varmint barrel w/1-8" twist, McMillan A-2 with a Zeiss Conquest 4-12X44 if keeping the cost down but a NightForce 5.5-22X56 if you have the scratch.

Float Pilot
December 15, 2010, 02:31 AM
I like the detachable magazine of the Tikka Tac model, but I have never fired any Tikka and have no idea what they do as far as accuracy.

I had a Steyr Scout for a little while and just could not get all hot and bothered about it.

The Rem M700 XCR tac LR that I currently have in 300 Win Mag fits me as far as balance , cheek weld and so on... But I can only expect half MOA groups from it so far. Although it could be the brass I am using which is just stock Winchester stuff. Up here we do not have many choices at times.

USSR
December 15, 2010, 10:07 AM
USSR,
What load are you using to get a .308 Winchester case to push a 190gr bullet to 2700fps?
with several IMR's, Varget, H4895 and others I am maxed out at 2550-2600fps.
QuickLoad also says the same so be careful.

You have to use one of only a couple different powders. Personally, I use 47.0gr of VihtaVouri N550 in Hornady Match brass, but I have heard that RL17 will work also, although I don't have any load data for it.

Don

CowboyTim
December 15, 2010, 10:16 AM
Caliber: 6.5 Gibbs
Optics: 4-20x50 Weaver Tactical
Stock: McMillan fiberglass a1
Barrel: Shilen match grade 26"
Receiver: Mauser
Trigger: Timney

Absolutely incredible rifle. Got to handle one made by a local gunsmith,(friend of my father) it was his favorite Gibbs.(His had a different scope than this don't remember exactly what it was, I'd find out but he passed away a few years ago.)

UnTainted
December 15, 2010, 01:52 PM
I do try for shots at 1000 yards, but these days I'm still working on trying to be proficient at 650 and 700. I'm good at 500 as long as the wind isn't completely out of control, and them I'm marginal.

Save milk jugs, and nail those bad boys at 500 - 700 yards. That's a serious challenge at first, and then a fun challenge to hone skills. I keep shooting, and keep moving the targets back, and keep doing close up stuff, and somebody I'll be able to shoot 1000 very well. Maybe five years from now.

If I could shoot 1000 yards tomorrow, it wouldn't be any fun to finally know you've become an accomplished 1000-yard shot. :)


with this practice, I have killed more than 20 coyotes out past 500 yards over the last few years. probably twice that number inside of 500 yards, and one inside of 10 yards with a 9mm sig. There's an overpopulation at my in-laws ranch in northern idaho.

More than a few times I've shot at the yotes out past 500 and for one reason or another (me, wind, range, bullet, rain, snow, me again) the round misses and the follow-up shots have to be done while the beast is running. I have hit two on the run (yay!) both shoulder shots, but if that first shot isn't right, mostly they will get to some cover. Sometimes they stop and look right before they go into the trees, we are usually ready for that and BOOM, wait for it, wait for it, splat.

I'm doing this with a sako 30'06, but I have borrowed my dad's CZ in 300wm and his sako in 300wsm. my uncle long range habit is with the 300 rum, and he handloads his stuff and is shooting under five inches at 700 yards. It's impressive. I will get there eventually.

MTMilitiaman
December 15, 2010, 02:33 PM
On the cheap, I'd use one of the rifles I already own. More than likely, I'd just drop my M1A into a Sage chassis and put a Nightforce 3.5-15x50 NXS F1 with either their NP-R1 or Horus reticule, and work up a load around a 175 gr SMK. For sure, better options exist, across the board. You could argue a semi-auto might be a poor choice for guilt edge accuracy at 1000 yards, and that more accurate semi-autos exist. You could also argue that the 7.62x51 has been surpassed at that range by lower-caliber cartridges shooting higher BC bullets, and that better options exist for the 7.62x51 than the 175 gr SMK. You might be right on all accounts. But the M14 was relegated to Camp Perry and to the sniper DMR role early on and has spent the better part of a century being studied and intensively analyzed in this role--it is a proven system, it works, and of the reports I've read, I have no reason to believe I couldn't get such a system MOA or better with match loads. Same with the 7.62x51--it's been doing this for a while now, and has been examined, tested, and proven on the firing line and the killing fields in ways most cartridges just haven't. We know about everything there is to know about this cartridge, and the 175 gr SMK is a known quantity with a decent track record for both accuracy and terminal ballistics. From my perspective, an ~$800 stock is cheaper than building any new rifle, and regardless, especially for long range accuracy, I don't believe in skimping on glass, so the Nightforce or similar quality optic is going on whatever I choose.

I could also put a Lilja 26 inch #7 stainless fluted 1:9 twist barrel, still in 7mm Rem Mag, on my M700 BDL 7mm, with a thicker recoil lug and some action tuning, drop it in a McMillan A5, add a Badger scope rail and bottom metal, and go to work. Work up some loads around the 168 and 180 gr Bergers, the 175 gr .284 cal SMK, and the 162 gr Hornady Amax, and stick with whatever shoots best downrange. This option allows me to extend my range out past 1200 yards if I so choose, albeit at the expense of added recoil and blast, ammunition/component expense, and barrel life.

From the ground up, I'd probably go with a Savage short action in .284 Winchester stoked with the same bullets as I'd try with the 7 Mag, just at lower velocities.

savage1r
December 15, 2010, 02:49 PM
Caliber: 7.62x54r surplus ($0.17 per round)
Optics: 3-9x POS brandless ($30), ATI mount ($50)
Stock: 91/30 ($70)
Barrel: counter bored
Receiver: 91/30
Trigger: squishy

Hitting a 1000 yard gong 3/5 times with $150 rifle: priceless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CHBuiBkQlo

1stmarine
December 15, 2010, 06:52 PM
Yes! those were the M3 BDC scopes in answer to a military request to provide drop compensation in 100 yards increments with every click. They had 1MOA click elevation adjustment and 1/2 click windage. The problem is that the scope go to market strategy was flawed from the beginning. The Army never tested the newer rounds and while many had dead on experiences many other folks complained that the scopes were not tracking as the leupold instructions indicated.
Since this was not a problem with the hardware itself, that it was nothing else bu the same internal design with a coarse adjustment, leupold should have known better and should have provided up to date ballistic charts with modern loads and proper documentation.
This is why I believe that there is no single system and scope that can be delivered out of the box and work 100% ok w/o tuning and mapping back to a good and accurate ballistic chart. For this it is paramount that you know the precise speed out of the muzzle and the precise weight of the bullet. Do not trust any published data. I have had the precise same load in two "twin rifles" (exactly the same) fired the same day and the same hour giving different readings. Go figure.

Once in a while someone gets lucky but there is no "easy button" here.

Cheers.
E.

1stmarine
December 15, 2010, 08:51 PM
I like the detachable magazine of the Tikka Tac model, but I have never fired any Tikka and have no idea what they do as far as accuracy.

Hi. Read the thread. They all are .5MOA or better out of the box. Great for starters.
The Tikka is nice but personally I would not get too worked out about the magazine since if the detachable magazine is important to you, you can also get a trigger guard with magazine 3rd party solution.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=132600
There also some great ones for the Savage from some guys in Canada.

I think that you pay more and the tikka you might get more often above the .5MOA than the others that more often are below .5MOA.

Another great option is to get the 110BA. You might not need to touch it.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BA
I don't have this model but you should expect always below .5MOA and many loads with .25MOA groups. This model in both .308 and .338 has been chosen by Filipino Swat and Special Operations Forces. They did extensive testing and gave savage a huge contract. ...and I know unfortunately those folks over there have a lot of experience with Gorilla warfare so they know exactly what they want from a sniper rifle.
I think that Savage has been always known to be an affordable and very accurate rifle. Great baseline rifles too.

Other option is the Kimber. So many to choose.

Personally I would go with the Savage tac or the Rem 700 SPS tac. Great starters for the post owner. The owner of this post must be going crazy but I hope this helps.

Cheers,
E.

USSR
December 15, 2010, 09:09 PM
those folks over there have a lot of experience with Gorilla warfare

Ah, they ought to quit picking on those poor gorillas. They would be much better off fighting guerrillas.;)

Don

MTMilitiaman
December 15, 2010, 09:15 PM
Gorilla warfare...hehe

1858
December 15, 2010, 09:15 PM
Ah, they ought to quit picking on those poor gorillas. They would be much better off fighting guerrillas.

Reminds me of the movie "Captain Ron" with Kurt Russell and Martin Short .... :D

1stmarine
December 15, 2010, 09:36 PM
hey folks yes!.. gorillas, guerillas, chimps, who cares? ...you got me there! LOL!

Mark-Smith
December 16, 2010, 01:36 AM
So is there anything in the Savage lineup around the $800 mark that y'all would recommend?

Hawksnest
December 16, 2010, 03:50 AM
There's a guy on youtube.com that hits a steel target from 1000 yards away with milsurps, just iron sights. Out of five shots he usually only gets 2 hits on average, the other 3 are still darn close. Very impressive anyway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-Lcvyrifw

Justin
December 16, 2010, 03:55 AM
Close only counts in horseshoes and atom bombs.

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 10:20 AM
Mark-Smith,
You should be able to get this one well below $700.
http://savagearms.com/firearms/model/10%20PRECISION%20CARBINE

I have the older model Savage 10FP LE1 in .308 and it is a tack driver .5MOA and much better consistently.
Later you can get a stock, etc.. and work on it a little but you do not have to if you don't want. They are great baseline but extremely accurate out of the box. Similar experience with the Rem 700 police and SPS tac.

Look at this guy's one, 3 shots inside a dime... http://www.opticstalk.com/wts-savage-10fple1-spf_topic6134.html

Stick to the "20 barrel. You loose a tad speed in .308 with certain loads but they are more accurate and versatile.

Also I find the Federal match and Hornady match and TAP ammo to work extremely well so I don't get why so many people get so enthusiastic later aobut the black hills. You do not get better groups with this with the black hills and pay more. In any case will shoot very well with any ammo. I even got SUB MOA consistently with cheap hunting loads. Keep in mind this twist of rate is really ideal for 168gr, 175gr and over otherwise you do not need a 1:10 rate but if you want long range you need the heavier longer bullets.

Cheers,
E.

Mark-Smith
December 16, 2010, 02:28 PM
Thanks for the link! I think that's the top contender so far :D

Maverick223
December 16, 2010, 03:14 PM
Stick to the "20 barrel. You loose a tad speed in .308 with certain loads but they are more accurate and versatile.I disagree, barrel length has no correlation with accuracy (though sometimes a short barrel has better repeatability because it has greater stiffness), but velocity drop is a problem if you are trying to reach out to 1k yds. Therefore a long bbl is best (that is what LR competitors use, and for good reason).

:)

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 06:15 PM
I disagree.
A shorter bull barrel of the same diameter has a higher tone that it has the potential to positively impact the accuracy. Specially all other things being equal it has the potential to be more accurate since more accuracy nodes can be found in the same barrel with different loads. In plain words the more stiffness, the better. This doesn't mean that a longer barrel cannot be accurate but the same barrel cut down one inch at the time more often than not, it starts closing on the groups. I experienced this myself after cutting down one of my rifles. One could argue if I got lucky but there is a lot of scientific research out there that proves this. This w/o counting the added value of a more compact system and the fact that with most popular loads you are done burning the load at 20".
Again, this is not for 1000 yards competition where there are specific 1 shot systems designed for very specific loads. I am talking about versatile tactical rifles that are some of the most accurate out of the box you can buy.
I think that the San Bernardino SWAT team made a pretty extensive and conclusive test on this idea and they documented that on the web. I will try to find it and send it to you.

Sincerely,
E.

Maverick223
December 16, 2010, 06:28 PM
E, there is no doubt that a shorter bbl is advantageous to a SWAT team that generally operates at comparitively short engagement ranges, but at 1k yds. I feel that a long bbl has some utility. If you look at the dedicated sniper systems implemented by most militaries you will notice nearly all employ a fairly long barrel (24in. or greater).

:)

Mark-Smith
December 16, 2010, 06:49 PM
Just out of curiosity, what effect does barrel length have on velocity? Is there a point of diminishing returns? Any point in a 48" barrel?

Or does the length not have as much impact on the accuracy as the tolerances it was machined to?

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 06:54 PM
I agree with you there but I would only sacrifice the versatility vs. speed only if I was to "always" shoot at 1000.
And the military snipers have gone through a logical and necessary evolution too and .308 is no longer the preferred choice for the new scenarios (ie: afganistan).

With that being said the speed difference in .308 win is very little for, again, the average (versatility) loads and one 20 incher can definitively hit the metal or paper pretty well at 1000 yards.
I think that the original post owner stated that the 1000 yards is just to play and not to compete or kill anything that is why I suggested the tac. systems that are extremely accurate at many ranges, specially those that I posted before with very affordable prices for a baseline rifles.
He also expressed the need for the eventual need of hunting (versatility).
There are many long (and heavy) bench rest rifles but we do not want to suggest anyone that this is a good choice for carrying all day. I find the tac systems the perfect balance for all those needs.

I found this article about the cut and test and repeat again procedure. I have done it and hey, it works! I hope you enjoy it....

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

All good advice in this website.

Cheers,
E.

USSR
December 16, 2010, 06:54 PM
When you look at the quality of the barrel itself, the skill of the gunsmith in chambering and installing the barrel, and other factors such as bedding, the difference in accuracy as a result of barrel length is infinitesimal and lost in the noise.

Don

Mark-Smith
December 16, 2010, 06:57 PM
When you look at the quality of the barrel itself, the skill of the gunsmith in chambering and installing the barrel, and other factors such as bedding, the difference in accuracy as a result of barrel length is infinitesimal and lost in the noise.

Which things have the biggest effect on accuracy in order of diminishing returns? (the shooter obviously being at the top, but aside from that)?

Maverick223
December 16, 2010, 07:02 PM
Just out of curiosity, what effect does barrel length have on velocity? Is there a point of diminishing returns? Any point in a 48" barrel?

Or does the length not have as much impact on the accuracy as the tolerances it was machined to?The velocity increases as an inverse square, in other words there is diminishing returns (IMO about 24in. is about as long as is practical for a .308Win.). That said any modern high velocity bottlenecked centerfire cartridge can effectively make use of a barrel greater in length than you can fit in your truck, but that isn't exactly practical. A 28in. bbl is about the maximum length that is practical for any rifle save for super-magnums (.50BMG, et al).

Lengths effect on accuracy is absolutely negligible when compared to the quality of the barrel. The added velocity will more than negate any deleterious effects because it helps the bullet shoot a bit flatter and more importantly allows it to buck the wind better.

And the military snipers have gone through a logical and necessary evolution too and .308 is no longer the preferred choice for the new scenarios (ie: afganistan).I despise the .308Win. (poor excuse for a .30-06Spd IMO), but magnums and cartridges using a necked down .308 only make the need for greater bbl length worse.

:)

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 07:03 PM
MArk-Smith,
The speed difference is minimal with average loads (versatility). You cannot measure it. Nobody can. I would be more worry about choosing a good bullet with a very good Ballistic Coeficient. Even the advertised BC by the manufacturer is sometimes wrong so you have to find out the BC by yourself. Some of the high-end bullets have more accurate BCs. People end up anyway swagging their bullets or have a custom shop do it for them for competition for examples. I would not worry too much about this right now.

Read this article... http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

Again think "Accuracy and versatility" otherwise you will be looking at the extremes and then specialized systems.

As I told you those tac systems are affordable, versatile and extremely accurate out of the box. That's why they are so popular, not just for target but many folks hunt with them.

Maverick223
December 16, 2010, 07:08 PM
Which things have the biggest effect on accuracy in order of diminishing returns? (the shooter obviously being at the top, but aside from that)?I'd rank your equipment list in the importance of ammo quality, barrel, optics, trigger, stock, action, followed by everything else (accessories).

:)

Mark-Smith
December 16, 2010, 07:20 PM
Read this article... http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/


Interesting stuff!

Mark-Smith
December 16, 2010, 07:31 PM
I'd rank your equipment list in the importance of ammo quality, barrel, optics, action, followed by everything else (accessories).

Will handloading still yield more accurate ammo than commercially available match-grade ammo?

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 07:48 PM
I will never disagree with quality.

Those out of the box Tac systems can also be enhanced when you are done with the factory barrel. There are a thousand good choices for bolt and AR rifles with great barrels like Krieger, Lothar, Shilen, etc...

As I said, all things being equal 20" is plenty, and more times than not, more accurate than a longer barrel of a longer length. This also doesn't mean that the longer barrel cannot be more accurate and better for the 1000 yards but might require more work than the 20" (versatility). Once you hit a node with the longer barrel I would agree that the extra speed is a plus but marginal in .308 win average loads and then again if you put an manufacturer hunting round there next day the chance is that the "20 barrel more often than not, will shoot tighter than the longer barrel. "Again. all other things being equal".
I also found there is no need for harmonic tuners in these barrels since they work very well (versatility) with many loads.

This is my ballistic chart with the military 175gr SMK. off the Savage 10FP L1 20" Barrel.

Range Velocity Energy Drop
0 2700 2833 0
100 2518 2464 2.74
200 2348 2142 10.99
300 2185 1855 25.58
400 2028 1598 47.49
500 1878 1371 77.89
600 1736 1171 118.18
700 1603 999 170.02
800 1480 851 235.38
900 1367 726 316.59
1000 1269 626 416.3

This bullet is still supersonic at 1000 and with an easy correction from my reticle and scope I can hit the target with 08"-13" groups and sometimes better.
The drift is about 46-47 with a 5mph 90degree win.

Remember this is an out the box system with very few changes.
Since I am a veteran trained as a navy infantry marksman and sniper this also counts of course but anyone can do it with training, patience and discipline.

Anyway my main focus is long range hunting so I don't have any dedicated 1000 yarder target rifle and loads and after I get a good sub-moa accuracy I lean more towards lethality vs. closing more the groups, specially with big game.

I design all my loads in all my calibers to kill game not to punch paper. Other might have better suggestions to dedicate a system for long range paper.

I initially suggested the tac systems for the desires of the post owner and the reasons I mentioned before.

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 08:10 PM
Will handloading still yield more accurate ammo than commercially available match-grade ammo?

Initially yes. It really depends on how well you reload or how good the ammo you are buying is. You should expect better results with the reloads overtime as you learn and you can customize the load to what your rifle "likes".

Some people start to reload to save some bucks and they really get deep into it because it is a lot of fun. Specially those long winter nights where you can reload your best loads and dream about a nice spring target practice and the next long range hunt in Montana.

Good factory ammo is expensive. Good loads are cheaper but still expensive, specially good bullets but the .308 win is probably one the most affordable ones compare to others.

I have great loads where I use military Lake City brass that I saved and it works great.
The best brass is Lapua but you have to pay for it.

Cheers.
E.

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 08:16 PM
I forgot the chart that I gave you is from a warm day with 68 degree weather, humidity 55% and 200ft above sea level at the range. I am going to look in my folders to see if I can find the target from that day.
Another problem will be to get my phone to take a picture and upload. LOL! I will try.

Maverick223
December 16, 2010, 08:33 PM
Will handloading still yield more accurate ammo than commercially available match-grade ammo?Absolutely, it takes a bit of time and development but you can typically beat the best match ammo by a fair margin, and do so at much less cost.

:)

USSR
December 16, 2010, 09:32 PM
Which things have the biggest effect on accuracy in order of diminishing returns? (the shooter obviously being at the top, but aside from that)?

IMHO, the barrel itself is at the top of the heap. There is a reason why the top shooters use barrels made by a select few barrelmakers. Second, is the bullet and particular load used. Third, is the smithing work done by the gunsmith, which includes the chambering, truing, muzzle crowning, and bedding work. Barrel length is determined by such things as aesthetics, ease of use, or to make a particular weight or increase velocity or sighting plane length in certain shooting sports. Nobody I know says "I'll lop an inch or two off my barrel to make it more accurate". Although, it just may happen due to them getting a better crown on the shortened barrel.

Don

Mark-Smith
December 16, 2010, 09:42 PM
IMHO, the barrel itself is at the top of the heap. There is a reason why the top shooters use barrels made by a select few barrelmakers. Second, is the bullet and particular load used. Third, is the smithing work done by the gunsmith, which includes the chambering, truing, muzzle crowning, and bedding work. Barrel length is determined by such things as aesthetics, ease of use, or to make a particular weight or increase velocity or sighting plane length in certain shooting sports. Nobody I know says "I'll lop an inch or two off my barrel to make it more accurate". Although, it just may happen due to them getting a better crown on the shortened barrel.

What can be done to increase the accuracy of a Savage or Tikka rifle out of the box? New stock?

1stmarine
December 16, 2010, 10:17 PM
I will tell you a few things that you need, including gear.
Initially to help decide just shoot the rifle, not once but a few sessions as you have to brake in anyway.

- Good scope. You might spend as much in a good scope or more as you spent in one of these rifles. It is paramount.
- Stock with a good bedding work. This is a given at some point, normally earlier than later with the baseline rifles. I suggest you stick to the Savage or Rem 700 for this.
- Tune the Trigger. The factory triggers have come a long way and are adjustable. Play with it and see what you get.
- I consider a good brake. It will help you in 2 ways. A) will stop recoil, climb and will will give you confidence to stop twitching. B) When hunting follow up shots must be quick and precise. Be careful here, choose a brake wisely.
- Get a good bi pod for the field or whatever other support you might choose if you shoot at a range.

At this point test and evaluate if you need to continue for your purpose.

- New trigger.
- Harmonics Tuner although I do not find this necessary for a versatile rifles as these. There are many nodes found on this rifles with many custom and factory loads.
- True up the receiver and action by a competent gunsmith. (expensive)
- At some point replace with a superior match barrel. You can use the factory barrel all the way or just save it for later. Make sure is match chamber, head spaced tight and everything properly and securely installed. Have a good gunsmith take care of it.
- If you go out in the field you will need a good reliable range finder. This one will give you all the variables you need to calculate your trajectory.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1686549
It is not 100% perfect but it is pretty good w/o getting into the military multi dollar systems. Don't spend your money in 'el cheapo' brands at Gander. They are worthless.

- At some point I suggest a PDA and good ballistic software unless you shoot in mid range and similar conditions always. At long range and changing conditions you will appreciate this. I put all my loads in my pda and then have all mapped out in a database along with speed spreads and ballistics charts, results, etc...

You do not need to do all this to get started.

Cheers,
E.

Float Pilot
December 16, 2010, 10:29 PM
Generally speaking, there is a 25 feet per second gain for every inch of barrel length between an 18 inch barrel to a 26 inch barrel.
After that point the gain per inch is less on most standard cartridges. Depending of course on the powder capacity and burn rate of the powder. Barrels from 12 inch to 18 inch show quite a variation in gain rates depending on the cartridge and powder.

Here is an example using an average from two of each type of Swedish Mauser.
All have a fast 1 in 7.8 inch twist.
The m/96 has a 29.1 inch barrel
The m/38 has a 23.5 inch barrel
The m/94 has a 17.1 inch barrel

6.5x55mm
140gr Sierra HPBT
46.3gr RL-22
CCI-200
WW Brass
3.055 col, no crimp
2,729 fps m/96
2,622 fps m/38
2,342 fps m/94
0.68 in grp m/96
1.19 in grp m/38
3.20 in grp m/94
no pressure signs
Clean brass
Aug 30, 2009. temp 65F


I have been hand-loading and testing since Nixon was the president. I agrre with USSR that the barrel is right up at the of of the pile. Along with a good bedding and good crown, and tight chamber.

I spend three decades on active and reserve military duty involved in weapons with an overlapping 20 years as a Law Dawg doing the same thing.
For police work we never really trained for much past 300 yards and usually worried more about 100 yards or even less. The ambulance-chasing, criminal loving, America hating lawyers/politicians made sure we spend more time worried about law suits than anything else. Short barrel worked just fine for that. They are easy to carry through a building and take up less room inside your car trunk.
My military personal use experience with long range shooting is pretty much limited to M-21s (22 inch barrel) for the last few years they were used and then the M-24s (24 inch barrel) and M82 Barrett (29 inch bbl). Although during a joint training exercise some Marines let us shoot their M-40A3s (24 inch bbl) Those were some nice rifles. 800 meters was about the max distance that I was capable of feeling confident using 7.62x51mm chamberings. Back when my eyes and body were sharp in the 1970s, nobody shot past that range. Towards the end of that career, a couple years ago, my eyes and pulse rate let me down on the long shots.

Back around 1972 I built my first target / hunting rifle using a DWM M-98 action and a 20 inch #5 taper Douglas barrel. In 7x57mm. 20 inch barrels were all the rage that year because the bench rest guys thought they were more accurate ...Plus this rifle is glass bedded into a very solid English Walnut thumbhole stock.
I still have that rifle and after 4,000 rounds it is a little picky about loads. But here is a 100 yard group from the last couple of years.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=132332&d=1292556350

But just when you start thinking that the short barrel really is the Cat's Pajamas, then I have to look at how my 29 inch barreled CG-63 Swedish Target rifle shoots with iron aperture sights.
Look at this 100 yard group, which beats most scoped rifles.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=132333&d=1292556350

Skylerbone
December 16, 2010, 11:12 PM
Couldn't even hit the target!

Float Plane, I wish my eyes would fail like yours, fine shooting sir! Thank you for the comparisons as well.

1stMarine, what brand of Harmonics Tuner would you recommend for my M700? I already have a Miculek brake installed but I'd like to know what you think might work well as a combo if it were up to you? Also, are you talking about one of those rubber things or something more professional? I guess I'm not that familiar with them, like the BOSS system?

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 12:23 AM
Many things can affect the harmonics. Even the weather.

The best harmonics tuners are the best at changing the tune of your barrel and dampening any reflections. It is a matter of acoustics so it depends on the material of the barrel, the diameter and more important the length of the barrel. A tuner will help you more in longer barrels than in a "20 barrel as I described before. I have use them all including, spring, rubber, the boss brake, which by the way works great in many rifles but because of the weight it is not good in light barrels.
So in many rifles I ended up custom designing my own harmonic tuner system and ordering them to spec. I do the same now with all my brakes as I found through extensive research and testing that these also can impact the accuracy of your system in several ways. I have also use with some success shotgun counter weights for tuning like the ones we use for skeet shooting. You can "play" with the weights moving along the brarrel until you find the "sweet" spots in the barrel. The problem is that they are not really designed for this, they are bulky and weird, and it is not clear cut to tune them.But the weight itself with two clamps can be a great stabilizer.

I would say your best bet will be initially the Boss Brake if you have a bull barrel, otherwise it is too much weight for my taste and might do more harm than good. The lighter the barrel, the lighter the brake must be.

As I said I custom order them and I like them flushed with the barrel and if possible short and "hollow" in SS or titanium (very light). I order them custom made sometimes for less cost than an original Vais or Hollands.

If you have a very thin barrel and do not have possibility to put a bull barrel at the moment also consider a composite barrel jacket. The aluminum and other materials are great to dissipate heat as well as dampening unwanted harmonics and some folks report great success without increasing the weight. We assume that you have a good barrel, even if it a light one with more flex otherwise forget it and do not spend the money.

The bedding, the tuner, a good brake is for fine tuning an accurate good rifle but it cannot do miracles. ...with a few exceptions I would say.

Another thing that one might consider is to create a bedding for the scope that is clamped with the bedding. This eliminates some of the impact produced by the scope but I do not recommend since it is too much money an only worthy for extreme long range shooting super magnum calibers.

For small footprint just use the standard tuners that you find at the gun shops, I like the light small ones with one simple screw.

I just found this website that gives some ideas on how to calculate and change the tune of your barrel...
http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

Cheers,
E.

Zak Smith
December 17, 2010, 12:28 AM
If we are talking about rifles that are 1/2 MOA or better, and we are interested in their effective accuracy at long distance (600+ yards), minute changes in mechanical accuracy due to small increases in stiffness are moot. By all means for benchrest competition this is relevant.

There are various arguments on the internet that short barrels are just as good; however, these are faulty with respect to long-range shooting for several reasons, the primary two being using relatively underpowered ammunition for the test (ie a good long-range load would be hotter and take more advantage of a longer barrel) and they make arguments about the LEO use of the rifle, which is short range, not long range shooting.

Zak Smith
December 17, 2010, 12:34 AM
PDA unnecessary. It's another gadget to waste time with in the field. Having either a PDA or a computer program, or a free web site, to generate data is useful, however, you need to be squared away with known good data before you head out to shoot for real/score/money/glory.

The speed difference is minimal with average loads (versatility). You cannot measure it. Nobody can.
You absolutely can calculate or measure the difference in downrange trajectory with a 100 fps difference.

Zak Smith
December 17, 2010, 12:37 AM
I also don't believe in tuners. They are a crutch to fix a rifle that has other fundamental problems. I have a 26" medium Palma barrel on my .260, and a 26" heavy Palma barrel on my 7RM. These are relatively thin compared to many heavy barrels. They shoot great with the same loads with no muzzle device, a muzzle brake, or a 15-22 oz suppressor hanging on the end. Of course the rifles are AI and the barrels were cut from top shelf blanks (Rock, Broughton), and were then chambered by an expert. I have found that rifles built with comparable quality and skill are very tolerant of different loads.

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 12:41 AM
however, these are faulty with respect to long-range shooting for several reasons, the primary two being using relatively underpowered ammunition for the test (ie a good long-range load would be hotter and take more advantage of a longer barrel) and they make arguments about the LEO use of the rifle, which is short range, not long range shooting.

I have used some of my best 'hot' loads with great success with 20". the slower burning powders should be avoided. The LEO Average engagement range is 100yrds or less.
This doesn't mean that a tac rifle cannot be use for long range target not as a primary objective.
If that was the objective I would not suggest a Tac rifle but the case of the post owner seems to be different.

Cheers,
E.

Zak Smith
December 17, 2010, 12:48 AM
I am saying that using that "short barrels are awesome" article to support the use of short barrels for actual long range shooting is faulty reasoning.

By all means you can use good LR loads in shorter barrels, and if I were to use a 20" or shorter barrel for LR shooting for some reason, I would use my same LR match load developed for 23-26" barrels (155 Lapua at 2930 fps from 24"). It will be the best across the board. There is no reason to avoid slower-burning powders in shorter barrels other than the desire to reduce flash or blast; they will still provide the best ballistic performance even in a short barrel.

And of course a talented shooter can do amazing things with "not the best" loads and "not the best rifle" or "not the best barrel length", but the question is what could he do wit a setup optimized for long range shooting. A friend of mine who is a very talented professional shooter won high .308 at the Steel Safari in 2010, but was 5th overall. If he had shot a proper long-range cartridge in a 24-26" barreled gun, he probably would have won 1st overall.

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 12:51 AM
The PDA, notbook, loose paper, laptop, shooting cards, all is good.
You cannot make decisions on what you do not know and the software is as good as any other tool you might have with you. In a range in similar conditions I would say not needed but in the field with elevation, wind, altitude, weather, shooting downhill or uphill it is a great tool.
Nobody should use a hand saw to cut a three if they have a chainsaw.
Tuners can be worthy. You need to understand first if you need them. Many times you don't need them.
Actually I suggest not to touch a baseline rifle until you run with it. There are folks out there that are not in a position to adquire a $7000 dollar target rifle and that might want to work on the possibilities of their baseline, upgrade as you go, tac or hunting rifles.

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 12:56 AM
I agree. I don't know who said "the short barrels are the greatests" but he or she is wrong. There is no best or worse but the best is what works the best for you.
Since the post owner suggested that the primary objective would not be to do 1000 I suggested the tac since they are pretty versatile and come to a great price point for starters.

Cheers,
E.

Steel Talon
December 17, 2010, 01:21 AM
How well do you shoot out to 500yards? If your not anygood at that distance then you will suck at 1000yards.

Skylerbone
December 17, 2010, 02:03 AM
1stMarine, how do I attach the BOSS to my Miculek break?

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 09:30 AM
1stMarine, how do I attach the BOSS to my Miculek break?
Skylerbone,
You can't. The Boss is a muzzle brake with an integrated tuner. It has a dial and you can tune the barrel, right down the settings for your load as you find your sweet spots and combine with a your scope regarding the external ballistics. The dial allows you quickly to come back to the ideal tune for that load.
Before you jump into a tuner make sure you need it and it is the right thing for your system. This is intended for fine tuning so don't think that it is going to resolve accuracy if you have other factors interfering. I will not install it in a light hunting barrel since it is heavy material and then fine tuning becomes more like a more coarse tuning and sometimes a trouble amplifier.
Also didn't have great experiences with the Miculek. It is not the optimal design as it is heavy and the bullet passes through several narrow holes before exists.
The bullets leaves the barrel way before any gases start to work in the brake but what happens is that the type of flat wave generated by a supersonic object when colliding with close objects creates a reflection that might impact accuracy. This is why I use custom brakes but this is a different subject.
Before you jump into the tuner consider if you need a bedding work, trigger or even a new quality barrel. Free float with a good bedding and trigger is paramount and anything you try w/o these basic components I consider in my opinion not productive efforts. Also you must have a quality scope and make sure it is working ok before you touch the rifle. It is not usual with top manufactures but sometimes a lemon shows up.
Cheers,
E.

USSR
December 17, 2010, 10:01 AM
Regarding the "harmonics" of a barrel. Forget about adding some sort of mechanical "tuner". Tuning is a function done through load development, pure and simple.

Don

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 10:09 AM
How well do you shoot out to 500yards? If your not anygood at that distance then you will suck at 1000yards.

Steel Talon,
500 with a good rifle, load and scope no problem.
Actually with these components and a little training, guidance and practice anyone can get good results. Overtime you should be keeping within MOA with moderate or no wind.

You do not need to always shoot at 1000 yards to become better at 1000 yards. For example you can train at 300 and become very familiar with all the variables that also affect at long range. Some folks do not have an option since the range closer to their homes might be 200-300 and a 1000yard might be far away so they do not go as often. Even at 300 yards you can start to see what the effects of weather, wind, mirage and other variables have in your practice. It is very important that you know your system well and that you know the load and bullet well and know what it does when it leaves the barrel. Have a chart with your ballistics that include bullet lift and spin-drift. Measure your loads and speed spread to assure accurate calculations. I keep my speed spreads in the single digit difference with slow and careful reloading.
Also understand how the scope value and the "mean" value of the adjustment consolidate. The more "actual" (vs. estimate) points you map in your chart the better you get to know how the trajectory behaves.
Out in the field some software and a Kestral I find them a must.

What works for me might not work for others. It might not work for you based on your system characteristics likes and dislikes. The information I give you is from my own experiences first hand.

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 10:17 AM
You have to decide if tuning is something you need. Before you should look at other things. Initially your tune your loads and if you do not find a load that works or you do not reload you could try a tuner.
A good understanding of reloading and a good understanding of how to tune will give you more possibilities and overall versatility.
It is not for everyone that is for sure.

Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 10:24 AM
Mark-Smith,
Could you verify your purpose? A lot of folks come to the post with very good suggestions but I believe you indicated the 1000 yards was not the primary and/or only purpose.

Maybe the post header should change so you do not get througn out of context.

- Is it the purpose for occasional 1000 yards or dedicated?
- Also are you looking for a versatile entry level baseline or high end dedicated?

Let us know.
Thanks,
E.

1stmarine
December 17, 2010, 10:32 AM
...some humor...
with this shotgun you can do a bullseye at 1000 all the time and then even change the target from your bench if you put a paper clamp at the muzzle.

http://www.dillerdesign.com/quietgun/

:D

Skylerbone
December 17, 2010, 11:27 AM
I sea. I am was just cheking, beecause they're seamed two be sumthing wrong wifh you're post, like if you was using bowth at the same gun at the same times.

I think I know what I need to, thanks.

1stmarine
December 21, 2010, 11:55 PM
Mark-Smith,
Did you make your decision?
Could you verify your purpose? A lot of folks come to the post with very good suggestions but I believe you indicated the 1000 yards was not the primary and/or only purpose.

Maybe the post header should change so you do not get througn out of context.

- Is it the purpose for occasional 1000 yards or dedicated?
- Also are you looking for a versatile entry level baseline or high end dedicated?

Cheers,
E.

Mark-Smith
December 22, 2010, 12:02 AM
A Tikka T3 or something from the Savage lineup looks like the most likely rifle at this point. Nikon prostaff, monarch, or a used leupold IV if I can find one for a good price.

Target practice at 1,000 yards, deer hunting, boar hunting, pronghorn in the panhandle if I ever find myself with an excess of cash lol.

1stmarine
December 22, 2010, 08:52 PM
That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming. There are many good recommendations from other fellow members but I wanted to make sure we stayed in the right track for you.
Again my recommendation would be Savage or Rem 700 tac. They are affordable as you need and extremely accurate. Even a tad better than the tikka. I have the 3 of them so I can tell you from first hand experience. These are not the ideal for "1000 YARDS ONLY" but you clarified your different purposes and anyway you can do some good shots at 1000 still supersonic and for what you want are overall pretty versatile and easy to carry if you want to hunt. Once more, .5MOA and better out of the box for $600-$650 pretty hard to beat.As you know the official operating range of the .308WIN is 800yards. You know .308 Win might be a little short for certain apps. but it is still the most popular and do many things do it pretty well type of round. In the military we had this round everywhere in the light armed vehicles, helicopters, light machine guns, rifles, carbines, etc... Brass and good bullets are plentiful and more affordable than other rounds.
I have many other calibers but the .308 WIN will always have a place in the front of the rack in the gun safe.
I found this article for you.... http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm
Also consider these 2 rounds. Barnes TSX 168gr and TSX 180gr. Didn't failed me once.
http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/30%20cal%20bullets/rifle038.jpg
Also the Nosler partition are very good.
All the rest you know from the thread.
Good luck.
E.

kludge
December 22, 2010, 09:04 PM
I can't imagine hunting of any kind with a bull barrel. And I still think something in 6.5 to 7mm is best for you intended puposes with a twist that will stabilize the heaviest bullets.

Mark-Smith
December 22, 2010, 09:18 PM
Commonly available ammo is a big plus, as I've yet to get into reloading and wouldn't want my rifle choice to be contingent on starting into that right off the bat.

1stmarine
December 22, 2010, 09:28 PM
I can't imagine hunting of any kind with a bull barrel. And I still think something in 6.5 to 7mm is best for you intended puposes with a twist that will stabilize the heaviest bullets.
Kludge,
These are tac rifles, not bench rest rifles.
7.5 pounds is not heavy for most folks I know. I can carry all day w/o any problems. I do carry double strap which is much better for your spine for anything you carry anyway. The shorter barrels eliminate weight while group a tad better. Pick up one and then let me know what you think.
Cheers,
E.

1stmarine
December 22, 2010, 11:57 PM
I would agree that 6.5 and 7mm have very good bullets but not the case for budget minded that doesn't reload and anyway the tac systems have 1:10 twist of rate will do great with the 168, 175SMKs (official military sniper round) and can stabilize up to 220gr bullets and also subsonic.
With the barnes TSX 180gr you can take down bear w/o any problems where .30 caliber allowed. I am not sure a 6.5 as I never tried or will try.
In terms of bullet selection the biggest range/verstility is in the .224, 6mm and 30 cal. That is a fact. I do understand thought the great capabilities of the 6.5 and 7mm bullets. They are awesome, no doubt.
Everything really starts and ends with a good bullet, everything else is to get that bullet from the little carton box to the desired target.
It is really up to Mark-Smith. It looks like budget, case-bullet combination is a factor too.
All good stuff here.
Cheers.
E.

bubbinator
December 23, 2010, 12:49 AM
Savage is building an "F" Class rifle in a great stock for not a lot of bucks. The scope will cost more! I have Savage Handgun that out shoots 90% of factory rifles that I got at a gunshow for $450 w/ scope! 7mm-08. Not a 1K platform, praise for Savage was the point.

1stmarine
December 23, 2010, 02:39 PM
Savage was adopted by the Philippines special units to fight terrorists over there. They did extensive testing and went with the .308 and a few lapuas in the HS Stocks.
They are awesome. I have the 10FP LE1 and can do .40 groups with match ammo and .25 with hand loads all day.
I would go with either one of these Savage tacs or the rem 700 SPS tac and leave the tikka out.
Cheers.
E.

kludge
December 23, 2010, 03:24 PM
Kludge,
These are tac rifles, not bench rest rifles.
7.5 pounds is not heavy for most folks I know. I can carry all day w/o any problems. I do carry double strap which is much better for your spine for anything you carry anyway. The shorter barrels eliminate weight while group a tad better. Pick up one and then let me know what you think.
Cheers,
E.

I have a TAC rifle (Savage 110FP in .308) I would never consider hunting with it. It's ~10.5# with scope, but there's and extra 12 oz of steel in the stock. It not a benchrest rifle by any stretch.

My actual hunting rifle is 8.5# with scope (22" magnum taper). It's the absolute limit. 6.5# to 7# would be much nicer, but I can't believe anything with a 20" bull barrel weighs 7.5 pounds. If it does it's got crap for a stock.

1stmarine
December 23, 2010, 09:45 PM
Kludge,
Again these are 20" (twenty inches) barrels.
Read the entire thread if you didn't. The post owner is not looking for a "hunting ONLY" rifle for for a "1000 yards ONLY" rifle.
The stock is not the best but this is what it does out of the box....
http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm I have one and I changed the stock and it is a bit heavier but not much and prints .3moa w/o any problems. I have no problem carrying all day. Army and Marine snipers carry these with much heavier gear all day from artic temps to 105 degree during the day.
I like 20" bull barrels, they are extremely accurate. There are some good hunting rifles but when you try this at mid-long range then all the hunting rifles go to the back of the rack.
I just came back form a party of a friend and also a fellow marine that just came back from Afganistan and we were just talking about this, how good the 700's are. Before you put this rifle down understand the key elements why it is so good for the military...accuracy, reliability and versatility and,
that my friends, that's the name of the game.

Mark-Smith. I am done with this thread. Good luck.

Shoot often and stay safe.

Cheers,
E.

kludge
December 23, 2010, 09:48 PM
Commonly available ammo is a big plus, as I've yet to get into reloading and wouldn't want my rifle choice to be contingent on starting into that right off the bat.

Well... there's commonly available online and commonly available at WalMart. Even stuff that you'll never find at WalMart is available at places like Midway USA. Like .260 Rem and .280 Rem... both would be great long range antelope/deer cartridges and are also good cadidates for a 1,000 yard rifle. If you want something that will be in stock at WalMart then .223, .243, .270, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-30, .30-06, and .308 somtimes is on the shelf at my local WalMart and nothing else. Ever. 7mm-08 is getting more and more popular and the 6.5x55 Swede is 100 years old, but you'd never know it by looking at her. The better sporting goods stores ond online retailers will usually have all of them in stock.

If you really want to shoot 1,000 yards you will be handloading eventually, but there's no problem in working up to it. There's a lot of factory ammo these days that will do a great job at 300, 400 yards and beyond... but after you shoot a dozen boxes of that stuff you'll be looking for a reloading setup for sure.

At any rate, and they've probably all been mentioned already, here's a list of rather common cartridges that I thing would do a good job at 1,000 yards and good for long range hunting up to whitetail size game...

.30-06, .308 Win, 7mm WSM, .280 Rem, .284 Win, 7mm-08, .270 WSM, .270 Win, 6.5-.284, 6.5x55mm, .260 Rem.

And if you show up in Oklahoma or Wyoming for a hunt with any of them, no one will bat an eye.

(yes, 7mm Rem Mag isn't on the list... no personal experience with that cartridge, but if I were after a 7mm Rem Mag for a 1,000 yard rifle, I would be having it custom chambered... in fact I might do it for any one of them... but a belted magnum isn't something I would choose if I knew I was going to be handloading 1,000 yard ammo.)

Skylerbone
December 23, 2010, 10:20 PM
Amen to that list kludge, especially the last 4 caliber choices. I'm a little lost on where this thread is at now. How 'bout them Hawks!

Seriously consider reloading both for the reward of doing it yourself and for accuracy's sake. It need not cost an arm and a leg either. For a press, digital scale, die set and priming tool you can spend less than $100 if you watch the sales. For under $200 (assuming you've got some spent brass) you could have 200 rounds loaded to hone your skills with. Equipment will multiply over the years but that adds ideas to the Christmas wish list of items you'd prefer to Old Spice and ties (unless you're real old school).

jake48
December 24, 2010, 04:35 AM
This was mentioned earlier in the thread,but if you are looking for a hunting rifle instead of trying to shoot from 1,000 yards why not improve you hunting skills. The last 4 deer I have taken have been within 30 yards and used a black powder rifle or shotgun slugs.

Mark-Smith
December 24, 2010, 05:07 AM
I'm not planning on doing much hunting at a 1,000 yards, rather target practice at the range. Having a rifle that could be used for hunting in *addition* to punching paper is a desired thing. Save boar, not too much hunting you can do year round. Besides, only so much room in the freezer!

GuysModel94
December 24, 2010, 09:29 AM
If you want to do this on the cheap, i would recommend you look at the Weatherby Vangaurd in .338 Win. Mag., rifle can be had for about $500.- and you get a quality rifle and excellent customer service, somebody actually answers the phone there.

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