Question for 30-06


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PAULREVERE
December 12, 2010, 08:13 AM
I recently bought a Rem 7400 30-06 and have a good amount of H414. Any issues using this powder in a semi-auto like the 7400 or even a Garand with 150 grain bullets? Any help is appreciated.

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Grumulkin
December 12, 2010, 08:30 AM
Do not use H414/Win. 760 in the Garand. It's well known it's too slow a powder for this gun and could cause a bent op rod.

As for your 7400; I don't know but if it were mine I wouldn't use H414/Win. 760 in it either.

ArchAngelCD
December 13, 2010, 06:18 AM
I agree, definitely don't use H414/W760 for loading ammo shot in your Garand and probably not for your 7400 ammo either.

PAULREVERE
December 14, 2010, 06:31 AM
OK no Garand. But a 7400 has no op-rod like a Garand and is a slow burning ball powder, so would a starting load be OK as long as I don't hot-rod it? I'm confused I guess. I have like 8 lbs of it and would hate to have to buy another powder.

ArchAngelCD
December 15, 2010, 02:21 AM
It's not a hot-rod load that which damages the opp-rod in the Garand, it's the pressure curve of the slower powders. I would suggest writing, emailing or calling Hodgdon and asking them. They will provide the information you're looking for. I like to call them because they are very helpful and usually supply more information than I'm looking for. More information is always a good thing IMO.
Phone: 913-362-9455
Email: help@hodgdon.com

Steve in PA
December 15, 2010, 12:55 PM
I've been reloading .30/06 for many years, in both bolt actions and Garands.

I love H414 for my bolt guns, but for the Garand I use IMR/H-4895.

Joemyxplyx
December 15, 2010, 03:15 PM
H414 is an excellent 30-06 powder. Its a ball powder so it meters very nicely. But it burns too slowly for the M1 so you have to use an adjustable gas valve (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=777146) so as not to batter the operating rod.

H414 is especially nice for the 165/168 grain and 180 grain bullets. Those bullets are a bit heavy for H4895 speed powders.

ArchAngelCD
December 16, 2010, 02:27 AM
H414 is especially nice for the 165/168 grain and 180 grain bullets. Those bullets are a bit heavy for H4895 speed powders.
That's true but 180gr bullets aren't recommended for the M1 either. In any case IMR4064 will work well with a 180gr bullet and is still safe in the M1.

PAULREVERE
December 16, 2010, 06:02 AM
I called Hodgdon. They told me H414 should be fine in a 7400, but would not recommend it in a Garand. So there you go. Thanks for all the replies gentleman.

ArchAngelCD
December 16, 2010, 12:21 PM
I knew Hodgdon would be able to give you the correct answer. I'm glad you contacted them, now we all have the information. Thanks...

Remo-99
December 16, 2010, 01:55 PM
Orignally the '06 was loaded with a 150gr bullet and fast powders(by todays standards).
But performs better(todate) with a heavier bullet and slower powders.

The 7.62x51mm or later known commercially as the 308win was first loaded with the heavier 175gr bullet, but after decades of use, 147gr-155gr bullets seem to be the better choice for most applications.

How's that for sidetrackin' ya. ;)

SlamFire1
December 17, 2010, 08:54 PM
I looked at this burn rate chart and I would be concerned with H414. It is a very slow powder.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

What does Hodgdon know about the charactertics of the Rem 7400 action? I would be very interested to know if they actually have pressure curve data that shows the port pressure with H414 is correct for the Rem 7400 action.

However burn rate and these ball powders can be tricky. AA2700 is a copy of WC852, which was used in Garand ammunition, and it is even slower that H414.

So it all depends on how fast the pressure drops before it gets to the gas port.

But it is not my rifle, and you can use anything you want. I would use something a lot faster, like IMR 4895/H4895/AA2495 because I know these are great powders in 308/30-06 gas rifles and I would not want to risk overaccelerating the action with some slow powder.

Wisner's has a very interesting page on the 742/7400 series of rifles.

http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/Remington_7407427400.htm

ArchAngelCD
December 18, 2010, 02:47 AM
However burn rate and these ball powders can be tricky. AA2700 is a copy of WC852, which was used in Garand ammunition, and it is even slower that H414.
I think you have your powders mixed up a little. From what I remember WC846 is the 308/30-06 powder, not WC852. WC846 is closer to BL-C(2)/W748 and WC852 is closer to 4831 or RL-19 which you would not use for Garand ammo. Of course this is only true if my memory is serving me correctly.

Joemyxplyx
December 18, 2010, 09:24 AM
Now I'm confused. I thought 180 and 200 grain were perfectly safe in an M1 provided the adjustable gas valve was properly calibrated. I was planning to try some 180 & 200 grain bullets over H414 in my M1 w/Schuster valve to see how they'd work. Unfortunately our local 300 yd range has been shut down by a nuisance lawsuit since early summer.

I remember shooting 2lb grenades off the end of an M1 with the gas valve open. The gun seemed none the worse for the experience. Although I think I forgot to pull the pin on one of the grenades prior to shooting it. I'm a little fuzzy about all this since it was about 50 years ago.

Anyway, I think everything depends on the gas valve and the adjustments not the powder and bullet weight.

GooseGestapo
December 18, 2010, 09:41 AM
The Remington M742 and 7400 are OK with the H414 powder. The gas systems are significantly different.

The gas port on the Remingtons are mid barrel whereas the gas port on the Garands are near the muzzle. The Garand's action is balanced to the residual port pressures of the various 4895 speed powders.

FWIW, most .30/06 commercial ammo now available is loaded with non-cannister powders that approximate the burning rate of the H414.

This the the reason that Hornady, amoung others is now offering "Garand" suitable factory ammo, as well as many of the loading manuals and bullet manufacturers offering "Garand" suitable loading data.

Wow, am I really that old now ????

SlamFire1
December 18, 2010, 07:54 PM
I think you have your powders mixed up a little. From what I remember WC846 is the 308/30-06 powder, not WC852. WC846 is closer to BL-C(2)/W748 and WC852 is closer to 4831 or RL-19 which you would not use for Garand ammo. Of course this is only true if my memory is serving me correctly.

WC852 was used in 30-06 Ball ammunition. I purchased a bunch of WC852, got a copy of the Government lot acceptance sheet. This powder was tested in Garands for function and peening. That tells me it was to be used in Garands.

There were a number of 90,000 pound lots of WC852, all with a slightly different burn rate, out on the market when I purchased my powder.

Accurate Arms bought a 90,000 lb lot of WC852 and sold that lot under the name AA2700. 2700 fps being the velocity of a 150 grain 30-06 ball round

They have since sold all the old surplus powder and are obviously continuing to buy newly made versions of the powder.

ArchAngelCD
December 19, 2010, 02:25 AM
SlamFire1'
You're right, I totally forgot that even though the lot loads are very large they do change and with the new lot the burn rates change too. BUT, I'm fairly sure WC846 was used a lot more than WC852 for Garand ammo for the most part.

SlamFire1
December 19, 2010, 09:40 AM
BUT, I'm fairly sure WC846 was used a lot more than WC852 for Garand ammo for the most part.
__________________

Probably was. The military had an advantage we don't have, massive amounts of public money. So they could spend money on pressure testing ammunition.

We, well we are stuck with guessing based on published data.

cheygriz
December 19, 2010, 07:02 PM
The Remington 7400 has a "high pressure" gas port, *(Like the M-14 and M-16) drilled very close to the chamber. Slow burning powders are fine. The Garand has a low pressure port drilled near the muzzle. Slow burning powders are a no-no unless you invest in one of them new fangled "regulators" to replace the original cap. :p

BigBob3006
December 21, 2010, 08:22 PM
Paul,

I would like to suggest one of the 4895 powders. This is the powder originally used in the Garand. It is also a very versatile powder and will handle every weight bullet you care to use.

Most manuals have a section for the .30-06 for Garand rifle target loads. I suggest you use that information for both rifles.

243winxb
December 22, 2010, 09:09 AM
http://remington.custhelp.com/ Ask Remington after searching there data base. If you need an answer, they can help. Register & Login :) If i had to guess, the 7400 will be Ok with H414. :scrutiny:

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