I've had enough of S&W


PDA






penjad
December 12, 2010, 01:00 PM
Recently I purchased a new S&W 642. I failed to notice that the front sight not only leaned to the left, but the whole barrel appeared to be twisted some to the left. I returned the revolver to the dealer and three associates (including the manager) agreed that it was a mess.

We boxed it up an sent it in to S&W for adjustment, repair... whatever. Two weeks later the dealer called and informed me that S&W claims it's okay and within tolerances. BS

I couldn't believe it. I immediately called S&W and talked to the warranty department. Long story short, they refused to do anything about it and stood their ground. This is my 4th S&W that I've owned over many years and I've watched the quality and also the quality control decline.

My dealer was awesome and let me UPGRADE to a Ruger LCR which is perfect. I should have bought the Ruger in the first place. S&W has lost me as a customer forever, not that they care. Do what you want with this information. Just thought it would be of some interest.

If you enjoyed reading about "I've had enough of S&W" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
*Klutch*
December 12, 2010, 01:29 PM
I had the exact same issue with the same gun, I just sold it and never looked back. I will still buy S&W though you just have to check them out before you buy them.

W.E.G.
December 12, 2010, 01:31 PM
should post pics

roaddog28
December 12, 2010, 01:41 PM
Sorry you had problems. I tend to agree with you that the quality of S&W revolvers has gone down. But the prices have gone up! The whole gun industry now is about production versus quality. Make lots of guns, sell them as fast as you can and don't worry if the quality is poor. I have seen this not only in S&W but Ruger and Taurus. That is why I buy only older revolvers. Most of my revolvers are pinned and recessed S&W. I have a older Ruger Police Service Six plus a older Ruger Blackhawk 357/9mm. Both were made back when the quality was much higher. The only revolvers new that I have seen that have a degree of quality is the Ruger GP100 and the SP101. I glad the LCR worked for you.
Good luck,

X-Rap
December 12, 2010, 01:43 PM
I have had 1 and seen a couple 629's that were bored and threaded so the barrel pointed to the right of the frame making the gun shoot progressively worse as the distance grew.
It wasn't real apparent when I bought it but once I took it to the range it was obvious, the fine ribs on the frame and barrel were no in line.
I have a 5" classic that is fine, I believe there was a time when QC was pretty bad at S&W so I look them over carefully.
Your over turned barrel is not as unusual as you might think, I have had two Marlin GG's that were over turned but you didn't notice until you put a rear sight on the reciever and had to adjust it way to the left.

richkratz
December 12, 2010, 01:46 PM
I am with roaddog28, only older S&W's for me. I have a '77 vintage model 64 that is pinned, and a '75 vintage model 27 that is pinned and recessed. Both are top-notch quality and new cannot come close. It's funny there are ppl out there that actually think new is better, and in very few instances it may be, but not in regard to S&W's.

penjad
December 12, 2010, 01:50 PM
I'm more dumbfounded by S&W's flagrant, condescending attitude than anything. They obviously don't need my money or respect.

btg3
December 12, 2010, 02:09 PM
^^^^ Economic pressure often separates winners and losers in competitive businesses. Unfortunately, S&W has not chosen a viable long-term strategy.

351 WINCHESTER
December 12, 2010, 02:41 PM
I called s & w years ago as I had bought a revolver and the b/c gap measured about .011. I was told that this was within their specs. I called bs and talked with his boss and they took it back and set the barrel back and when I got the gun back it was right at .006 which is close enough. They paid shipping both ways.

Now that was almost 20 years ago. Lately I have not seen a s & w that I would even consider buying.

shootingthebreeze
December 12, 2010, 03:07 PM
Very interesting post especially relating to used, excellent condition S&W. Perhaps older is better. Good point.

Handguns have gone up in price. For example I saw a S&W 638 airweight 5 shot, .38; one place sold it for over $600 another place for $549.

captain awesome
December 12, 2010, 03:08 PM
I called s&w customer service recently and was not pleased. To start off, they guy I talked to seemed extremely annoyed that he had to answer my questions. I was hoping they would replace a horribly inaccurate cylinder on a model 29 I bought(two of the chambers shoot way off). the cost they told me would be approximately $200, I pay shipping, I declined on principle). They also sold me a replacement rear sight assembly. Not only did they send the wrong one(I read them the serial number twice) but the finish is messed up. I just got it Saturday, so we will see how they handle it tomorrow when I call and tare them a new one.

sig220mw
December 12, 2010, 03:57 PM
I've heard many such horror stories from others. The truth is that S&W priced them self out of my consideration a while back. I do have a model
30-1 32 sw long with a pinned barrel and it is a great shooter but I bought it 2nd hand back in the 90's. I don't know how old it is but I do like it.

MMCSRET
December 12, 2010, 04:13 PM
My newest S&W is a mid 70's. I just traded away a beautiful 66-5, 3", RB, in box with cable lock and all papers because the chamber throats were so small that I couldn't push a bullet thru using a brass rod and a 12 oz. ball peen, I'm talking about a soft cast bullet.
HBWC over 2.7 gr. of Bullseye showed pressure signs. I didn't have much in it so I traded it for a Colt Army Special in 32-20 from 1922. The 66-5 was a 1999 model. The finest S&W I own is a Regulation Police in 38 S&W from 1927. The rest are down graded from there.

Onmilo
December 12, 2010, 08:09 PM
I guess their "Lifetime Warranty" only applies to their all to frequent Factory Recalls,,,:(

penjad
December 12, 2010, 09:46 PM
http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htm

I'm sure you've all seen this before.

Gato MontÚs
December 12, 2010, 10:06 PM
I second the motion for pics.

Nematocyst
December 12, 2010, 10:17 PM
http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htmOh, this whole thread is disappointing to read.

But yes, I third up the pics request.

ironhead7544
December 12, 2010, 10:17 PM
If you get into this type of situation, write a very nice letter to the president of the company first. It worked for me.

penjad
December 12, 2010, 10:30 PM
I replaced the gun already with a Ruger LCR. I should have taken pics but didn't think about it at the time. Take my word for it; totally askew. I had a phone conversation with customer service and they treated me like a leper. Why would I waste my time writing a letter to the president of the company?

Nematocyst
December 12, 2010, 11:25 PM
It's not a waste of time to write a president for two reasons.

1) If s/he cares about the company, s/he will fix the problem.

2) If s/he doesn't care about the company, s/he will fix not the problem,
and you have proof of it because they didn't respond to your letter,
which you post here among 50,000 gun owners,
who will read about the issue.

penjad
December 13, 2010, 12:06 AM
I would think that lodging my complaint with both the warranty dept and also in a verbal conversation with customer service would be enough. Not only that, but my dealer returned the gun to S&W, permanently.

Not to mention the fact that these types of problems appear to have been, and continue to be ongoing with Smith. I want nothing more to do with a sub-par company like that.

Nematocyst
December 13, 2010, 12:15 AM
Well, ok, then, we can agree to disagree.

Gato MontÚs
December 13, 2010, 12:26 AM
I would think that lodging my complaint with both the warranty dept and also in a verbal conversation with customer service would be enough. Not only that, but my dealer returned the gun to S&W, permanently.

Not to mention the fact that these types of problems appear to have been, and continue to be ongoing with Smith. I want nothing more to do with a sub-par company like that.

Yet somehow starting an account on a web forum and complaining about it (without pics) is going to do much better.

Nasser still skeptical...

penjad
December 13, 2010, 12:31 AM
Believe it or don't believe it. I couldn't care less.

Guillermo
December 13, 2010, 12:34 AM
I will still buy S&W though you just have to check them out before you buy them.

how crappy does a company have to get before you will not do business with them?

Balrog
December 13, 2010, 12:41 AM
I have always had wonderful service from S&W when I have had to use them.

I dropped a cylinder/crane assembly on a 629, and the crane bent a little, causing the cylinder to bind. S&W paid shipping, and fixed the problem, no bill to me for anything.

I discovered a small linear mark on the barrel of a 1911 that I had put several thousand rounds through. I think it was cosmetic but was concerned, sent it back, and they replaced the barrel for free.

I have always been very happy with them.

That said, I don't know much about the quality of their current revolvers, because I am not going to buy one as long as they have the lock.

Stainz
December 13, 2010, 06:22 AM
I have had great results on my few calls to S&W CS over the years. I have a collection of S&W's all bought new - most with the IL - and they have all been near perfect. This year alone has seen two new PC627's and a new 63 added to my stable - all perfect in fit and function. Okay, the PC627's Eagle boots weren't great - but they fixed that. Still, my worst S&W's were from the 80's - and are long gone now. This year's rate as the best.

Now, to the OP - penjad. You joined our group yesterday - seemingly just to vent your anger over your poor purchase - at least all six of your posts are here. Doesn't that seem, well, rude? Perhaps we are rude by not offering a welcome to you here as well - but you came in with a beef. You asked no questions - you related a story. Have you shot the LCR yet? Will it's less than stellar performance be your next topic? Good luck with that.

Stainz

ArchAngelCD
December 13, 2010, 06:32 AM
penjad
Member


Join Date: December 12, 2010
Posts: 6
I'm a little suspect of someone who registers on this forum on Dec 12th seemingly to post this thread, has a total of 6 posts all of which are in this thread which was stated to bash S&W without any proof. I smell a Troll. I could be wrong but I'm usually not... :rolleyes:

rogertc1
December 13, 2010, 06:48 AM
One can not dare Bash S&W here..it is not High road. It is however OK to Bash Taurus....:)

http://lonelymachines.org/guns/340/340_2_pc.jpg

ArchAngelCD
December 13, 2010, 06:50 AM
Actually, there are more Ruger fans here than S&W fans. Every time there's a Poll asking which to buy the Ruger usually comes out on top. (and by a good margin) I was talking about the bashing, not what was being bashed. IMO don't feed the Troll... ;)

Geezer Glide
December 13, 2010, 06:55 AM
It happens at Ruger, too. There are many reports of canted barrels on SP101's and GP100's on other forums. If you send it back to Ruger they will make it right. It should have been right before it left the factory.

To all the skeptics, do you have photos to support everything that you post?

PabloJ
December 13, 2010, 07:20 AM
Ruger makes good quality reliable revolvers. I had trouble free 'Security Six' with 2&3/4" "bull" barrel. I got rid of it at same time I let go of my other "crowbars" (H&K P7 and CZ75). Just realized I don't need another "crowbar" so I'm going to pass on 4" S&W Model 28. Thank you for saving me $550+tax.

CajunBass
December 13, 2010, 08:07 AM
It's been a long time since I've seen a "new" revolver I wanted, I don't care who made it. I always end up looking over the counter to the rack of used guns. I can find plenty there to keep me occupied.

shootingthebreeze
December 13, 2010, 10:05 AM
It's interesting. Many threads relating to malfunctions with high end weapons (Glocks, Sigs, S&W as examples) provoke a stream of comments like the authors just can't believe anything could go wrong with those brand names yet when any good comment is made about Taurus it attracts a host of negatives against that company.

As I said before, any handgun can have a malfunction during breakin. Does not matter if you paid over $900 for it. Breakin would mean 300+ rounds fired through the handgun including performance evaluation. If something fails get it fixed and move on.

There is no such thing as a perfect handgun. It's an individual choice based on many factors including price.

Though THR tries to curb negative comments they still creep in even when good comments are made.

Thaddeus Jones
December 13, 2010, 10:08 AM
Theres always a S&W apologist who will come into a thread and come up with some reason to excuse S&W. :rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned S&W went out of business in 2000.

Idiotic locks, cheap MIM pot metal parts, revolver designs made by plumbers and lawn mower salesmen.

Luckily S&W's current production revolvers caused me to buy a Ruger GP100. Between used pre lock S&W's and new Rugers, I'm set! :)

Full Metal Jacket
December 13, 2010, 10:21 AM
i had an m&p40c that would lock back with rounds still in the mag. 3 trips to s&w never resolved it. eventually sold it to fund another 1911, so it wasn't an issue anyway.

i would still buy s&w products. :)

hardluk1
December 13, 2010, 10:33 AM
I ran into a shooting buddy a while back at a range . He had a new to him model 29. That revolver spit bullet shaveings and powder like nothing i have seen. He asked me if that was normal. Some blast can happen but that did seem extream. He brought it by later and we measured the gap at 9th's. I call s&w the next day and next day and was told that cylinder gap can run from 6th to 10th on production revolvers and the custom shop stuff will run from 4th to 6th. That is terrible Q C. on there part. He Was later told the same thing and sold it and like some others bought a ruger RH. I shot a wesson but mine starts with Dan not smith. Cylinder gap stays at 2th on mine. I know they all produce some junk but it should not happen and then to be told its normal. Not right. I know there older production firearms were better than most of what comes out of the custom shop today. To many brands under there control, to many veriations with to many different people building one firearm.

SaxonPig
December 13, 2010, 12:48 PM
S&W has been having major QC problems on barrels since 1982 and everything they do seems to make it worse. For some reason they haven't figured out how to install a crush fit barrel. When they used the retaining pins you never heard of barrel problems with S&Ws. Then they eliminated the pins in 1982 and ever since barrels (and sometimes frames) are damaged or not assembled properly. I think it's due to the crush fit barrels not being installed correctly. bent, canted and twisted barrels are almost common. Frames damaged from barrels being over tightened also occur too often.

Now they've started using that God awful shrouded barrel and this is going to make it much worse, IMO. They need to go back to the pinned barrel. They dropped that feature to save a few bucks per unit but it has not worked out well at all.

Kentucky_Rifleman
December 13, 2010, 01:01 PM
I have a older Ruger Police Service Six plus a older Ruger Blackhawk 357/9mm. Both were made back when the quality was much higher. The only revolvers new that I have seen that have a degree of quality is the Ruger GP100 and the SP101.

The GP100 6" I bought new 4 months or so back is a dandy, damn near as slick as my much-older 6" security six stainless.

My father-in-law bought a new 686 6" a couple of months back, and it's a dandy! He hasn't had any problems with it at all.

It breaks my heart to hear S&W's quality control isn't what it used to be. I absolutely love their older revolvers. I have to believe that there are several of us still buying guns that would pony up a little extra to get hand-fitted quality.

I believe Colt could grow quite prosperous if they brought out a few of their most popular models (the Python in particular) in limited-production runs.

I'd pony up a chunk for a NIB Python, and I don't think I'm alone.

I know S&W has the Performance Center, but there's a lag on getting their guns isn't there?

KR
KR

Confederate
December 13, 2010, 02:20 PM
I called bs and talked with his boss and they took it back and set the barrel back and when I got the gun back it was right at .006 which is close enough. They paid shipping both ways.

S&W has been cutting corners to save you, the customer, $$$. ...Er...wait...they cut corners to save THEM money...yeah, that's right.

They may not have set the barrel back in this case, but set the cylinder forward. It's always best to check headspace after the gun is returned. In a case with me, my headspace went from .006-inch to just over 013, which, to me, is unacceptable. S&W said, "Well, does it shoot reliably?" and I said, "Yes, but when I go to sell it, the price will be affected, and over time it may affect the functioning of the gun.

I couldn't live with a barrel screwed in as you described. Get a Ruger or even a Taurus (heaven forbid!). S&W is living in a dream world -- for them -- and a nightmare world for us. Their second and third generation autos were the last great things S&W produced, in my view.

Their revolver prices are a joke. Their 8-shot aluminum .22LR 317 sell USED for over $500!!

I think Taurus has a unique opportunity to fill S&W's shoes if they can just get their fricking acts together. It's just that Taurus needs better management. If they do that, they could bury S&W.

Guillermo
December 13, 2010, 02:38 PM
As far as I'm concerned S&W went out of business in 2000

I agree with Thaddeus
...as usual

Full Metal Jacket
December 13, 2010, 02:45 PM
Now they've started using that God awful shrouded barrel

what's your problem with the shrouded barrels?


Idiotic locks, cheap MIM pot metal parts, revolver designs made by plumbers and lawn mower salesmen.

source? or any proof that they use cheap MIM "pot metal" parts, or "lawn mower salesmen" designed their guns?

if you're looking for guns made without MIM, that entire gun industry went out of business decades ago.



i'm certainly not a huge s&w fanboy, but their production methods are no worse than any others. you'll find people bitching about any company's quality control not being what it used to be.

armoredman
December 13, 2010, 02:49 PM
I have one, a Model 10-8 from the mid 80s, works perfectly, and it will never go anywhere. That's the extent of my Smith loyalty.

PabloJ
December 13, 2010, 02:51 PM
what's your problem with the shrouded barrels?




source? or any proof that they use cheap MIM "pot metal" parts, or "lawn mower salesmen" designed their guns?

if you're looking for guns made without MIM, that entire gun industry went out of business decades ago.



i'm certainly not a huge s&w fanboy, but their production methods are no worse than any others. you'll find people bitching about any company's quality control not being what it used to be.
The only affordable option is second hand Norinco 1911.

Thaddeus Jones
December 13, 2010, 02:56 PM
Actually, the S&W Performance Center ADVERTISES the lack of MIM parts in their handguns. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

Dan Wesson has 1911 models that are MIM free as well. Both Colt and Springfield have minimal use of MIM, in parts easily replaced by forged parts, for those of us that wish to do so.

The MIM doesn't bother me as much as the idiotic lock. No matter, I read where Dan Wesson will make DA revolvers again. Screw S&W. :)

PabloJ
December 13, 2010, 03:02 PM
Actually, the S&W Performance Center ADVERTISES the lack of MIM parts in their handguns. Wonder why that is? :rolleyes:

Dan Wesson has 1911 models that are MIM free as well. Both Colt and Springfield have minimal use of MIM, in parts easily replaced by forged parts, for those of us that wish to do so.

The MIM doesn't bother me as much as the idiotic lock. No matter, I read where Dan Wesson will make DA revolvers again. Screw S&W. :)
I looked at couple late 50s Yugo Tokarevs at Gander Mountain. The machining and bluing were first rate especially for military grade firearm. I'm sure there is no dreaded MIM components in them.

OregonJohnny
December 13, 2010, 03:11 PM
For what it's worth, I had this exact same problem with my 642. I sent it to S&W (they paid shipping both ways) and I had it back within a week or 2, and the problem was mostly fixed. It straightened it out for the most part. This was about 2 years ago. It was a quick and painless customer service experience. Nothing special, but nothing really bad, either.

badbob38
December 13, 2010, 03:35 PM
I have photos of a brand new right out of the box Ruger snubnose that was so far out of time it split a bullet. Iam sorry to hear that S&W treated you that way. I work part-time at a indoor range and take care of all the rental handguns. I deal with the factory and have never had any problem. They are a top notch and make a #1 gun. Sometimes **** happens. So shoot your ruger and miss out on some the finest handguns in the world.

jrb_pro
December 13, 2010, 03:41 PM
You had bad luck and that sucks. I'm sorry about that.

Having said that, going from a S&W to a Ruger isn't an upgrade in terms of what it is. I know Rugers are tough as nails, and NICE guns, but it's still the difference between Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz.

Everyone builds a defective product every now and then.

Kentucky_Rifleman
December 13, 2010, 04:38 PM
but it's still the difference between Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz.

I like both S&W and Ruger - based of course on my own experiences - but I think comparing Ruger to Cadillac and S&W to Mercedes might be a bit of a stretch in logic.

I'd come closer to believing S&W as Cadillac and Ruger as Chevy. Maybe I can see the Python as the Mercedes... ;)

My Smiths are all pinned and recessed vintage (all four of 'em).

KR

krupparms
December 13, 2010, 04:44 PM
Just a thought, maybe they and others are helping Big brother. After all they did cave in on the Gov.s A.W.s ban.Big corp.s& cartels have been trying to take control of the repubic since the beginning.Maybe I am just getting old & wary of these things, but maybe we should look closer at some of the co,s that put out bad guns.IT could be another way to disarm us.I am sure most will tell me I am NUTS,That is what they said when I told everyone 10 years a go that gold would go over 1,000 an oz. Just a thought!

raveneap
December 13, 2010, 05:00 PM
If you have a problem with SW, call Customer Service and talk to "Kelley." The best CS rep I've ever dealt with, bar none.

D Rock
December 13, 2010, 05:39 PM
raveneap, do you have an extention # for "Kelley"?

I had a warranty problem with my revolver earlier this year and it took 3 tries on the phone to get a nice lady named Kim to email me a return tag. Got it within 2 hours and had the pistol back in a week from pick-up date.

The phone stuff is very aggravating when you are hoping for help.

Dave

ArchAngelCD
December 13, 2010, 06:57 PM
As far as I'm concerned S&W went out of business in 2000.

Idiotic locks, cheap MIM pot metal parts, revolver designs made by plumbers and lawn mower salesmen.
Now there's a few statements which are extremely difficult to argue with. I also miss S&W as it was instead of what's there now...

joed
December 13, 2010, 07:47 PM
I bought a brand new model 19 in 1982. When I fired it in the summer it shot fine. However, when I went to eject the spent shells the cylinder fell on the ground. Ended up spending a few bucks for a gunsmith to fix this rather than send it back.

The more I shot it I uncovered more flaws. For some reason in 2 chambers would bind slightly, they required a harder trigger pull then the other 4. In a word that gun was junk. Took it to the range once and the cylinder refused to rotate. After this episode I sold it, for all the revolvers I've owned this was the second worse.

That gun was so bad I did not buy another S&W until 2001, 19 years later.

In 2001 I purchased a 66-5, this one was what I expected. I've bought quite a few other S&W's since than, some bad, some good.

I've owned a few of the newer guns, a .44 MG, .45 Colt MG and 686+. All these had locks and MIM parts, never a problem.

Don't fool yourself thinking the newer guns are junk, even the older guns had lemons every so often.

Shear_stress
December 13, 2010, 07:54 PM
Don't fool yourself thinking the newer guns are junk, even the older guns had lemons every so often.

So true. I had an M&P made in 1948 which left the factory with a defective forcing cone. Amazing that the volume of complaints of one company or another making "junk" rises with the number of people being able to electronically broadcast every problem to the universe ;)

roaddog28
December 13, 2010, 08:37 PM
S&W has been having major QC problems on barrels since 1982 and everything they do seems to make it worse. For some reason they haven't figured out how to install a crush fit barrel. When they used the retaining pins you never heard of barrel problems with S&Ws. Then they eliminated the pins in 1982 and ever since barrels (and sometimes frames) are damaged or not assembled properly. I think it's due to the crush fit barrels not being installed correctly. bent, canted and twisted barrels are almost common. Frames damaged from barrels being over tightened also occur too often.

Now they've started using that God awful shrouded barrel and this is going to make it much worse, IMO. They need to go back to the pinned barrel. They dropped that feature to save a few bucks per unit but it has not worked out well at all.
Amen to this.
Howard]

marsofold
December 13, 2010, 09:31 PM
This thread has made my mind up on this company. I won't be buying any of their products in the future. Thanks for all of the informative posts!

Shear_stress
December 13, 2010, 09:43 PM
his thread has made my mind up on this company. I won't be buying any of their products in the future. Thanks for all of the informative posts!

You can do what you like, just remember the adage: "the plural of anecdote isn't data".

jimjc
December 13, 2010, 09:55 PM
You know, making guns isn`t rocket science, I know some will disagree but it isn`t. The problem has always been manufacturing can produce some bad ones among the good ones. Quality control is supposed to do what it supposed to do, ferret out the bad ones before they get to the customer. American corps. have lost their way it started decades ago and now they have progressed into unprofitable, incompetent, money mongers diversified to the point they no longer give a rats =ss. Another problem is good gunsmiths are getting harder to find and we are getting more reliant on the Mfg`s, that is not good. 15 years ago I had 4 gunsmiths within 10 miles, today I dont have one. If the Supreme Court comes down on the Manufactures side on "class action suits" this spring you can expect the consumer will get screwed again, we can expect to get even worse quality in the products made here. Sorry for the rant but I`m expecting less and less from our corps.

Shear_stress
December 13, 2010, 10:32 PM
The S&W quality issue has been hashed and rehashed so many times that it's past tiring--especially when you realize that the beating of this particular dead horse has been going on since before most people on this forum were born.

There's no getting around the fact that S&W makes guns more cheaply now than in the past. Depending on the model, they've eliminated many (to nearly all) of the hand-finishing steps. However, I doubt anyone here can actually cite statistics that show an inexorable decline in accuracy, functionality or dependability. Seriously. All we get are logical fallacies:

1.) "I bought a new S&W that was defective. My other S&Ws weren't. Therefore, S&W quality is declining." No, you're just one guy that bought a crappy gun. Just be glad the Bangor Punta days are over. They made some real turkeys back then.
2.) "All the used S&Ws I see worked great. Therefore, S&W quality is declining." No, this is selection bias. The guns still being bought and sold on the used market tend to be the ones that still work. If they didn't they were repaired or scrapped or otherwise taken out of circulation.
3) "S&Ws are crap. Therefore Brand-X must be better." Really? What does one thing have to do with another?

A lot of the new guns are ugly and look cheaply made. I buy guns for more than functionality and I appreciate the craftsmanship of the older guns. But, with no way to compare past or future defect rates this whole debate is internet bluster. If you want to throw around terms like "apologist" at least base your argument on data.

penjad
December 14, 2010, 01:03 AM
Point is fellas, after shelling out $500+ for a new snub, one would expect the barrel to be on straight and the front sight to be vertical, not leaning at 10 degrees. Seriously, think about it.
I'm done with this thread. Hasta

murf
December 14, 2010, 03:25 AM
i have a couple of guns with a carry-up problem. i'm going to take raveneap's advise and call kelley. i'll let ya know how it goes.

murf

IBEWBULL
December 14, 2010, 03:49 AM
The craftsmen in all the trades in America are getting old and retiring. Apprentices in the trades are all running scared for their jobs and quality suffers in every occupation.
The skilled trades which produced the guns, planes , tanks in WWII are long gone.
We need to bring some pride back nto the workforce and one way is to strengthen the unions.
I am not speaking of the small custom shops which turn out great products, but the ones like Winchester,Remington, which have some of their guns made overseas.
I didn't forget SW either but must admit I have only bought one NEW in the box gun in years. It was a Ruger LCP it is a $300 seven yard gun.
I have been leaning away from the mass produced plastic investment cast toys of today and reverted tot he steel and wood of days gone by.
The Pythons, Highway Patrolman and 1911's are just pieces of art.
Aged and improved just like us old timers.
The question is who will build the tools to defend the republic in the future?

MTS Cop
December 14, 2010, 03:50 AM
I own two S&W pistols that I bought brand new and I have no idea what their CS is like because I've never had to deal with them. I also own a Sig 226 since new and never had to deal with Sig's supposedly awful CS either. All three of these firearms fall into their respective company's "new junk era" and have all performed flawlessly.

Keep in mind people raise holy hell when their new gun doesn't work as expected, as they have a right to. Most people don't start pages long threads about their boring, reliable new gun. I wouldn't indict a company because of a few anecdotes of poor QC. There is no denying though that they (S&W, Sig etc.) don't make them like they used to.

Full Metal Jacket
December 14, 2010, 04:15 AM
s&w and Springfield armory have the best customer serv i've ever seen (and dealt with).

glock is another story (great guns, lousy cust serv).


a relative bought a colt king cobra brand new in the late '80's. when he showed it to me, i noticed the barrel was twisted into the frame to far to the left, and consequently, the front sight was leaning to the left.

he sent it back to colt, on his dime, and had it back in a month--with the barrel twisted too far to the right lol. he just kept it like that. he figured sending it back to colt might make it even worse.


i had a ruger bisley vaquaro that jammed on me (cylinder binded). also had a P-90 that constantly jammed.

everyone puts out a crapper-some more than others. (you're not going to convince me that ruger makes better guns than s&w ;) )

SwampWolf
December 14, 2010, 07:50 AM
In my experience, Smith&Wesson has some of the best customer service out there. Though I own ten or so of their handguns, I'm no "apologist" and would say otherwise if I had bad experiences with them. But they have always treated me fairly and with respect. I'm surprised and sorry that some posters have had less than stellar service from S&W.

*Klutch*
December 14, 2010, 09:06 AM
I have had a 642 that had the barrel twisted and the sight was canted, also the barrel had dug into the frame and made a gauge. I also have had a 442 no lock and it was perfect. I owned the 642 about 2 years ago and the 442 only in the last 6 months I sold it and never should have. I don't feel they are crap guns at all, maybe the QC has dropped off some but we all know this and need to be better consumers when we purchase their product. I agree with whoever posted about the pinned barrels and not having issues like they have now, the pinned barrel era was S&W's glory days and unfortunately they're gone.

snooperman
December 14, 2010, 09:18 AM
made many years ago when the company cared about quality. Unfortunately , quality has gone but high prices for their stuff remains. I refuse to look at their guns anymore except when I go to gun shows etc to seek out the older ones, if I can find them for a reasonable price in excellent condition. Last year my brother-in-law bought a Performance Center gun, and I was surprised that he paid $1200 for that gun..for that kind of money he could have gotten 2 nice older guns, in fine condition. To each his own.

22-rimfire
December 14, 2010, 09:25 AM
Having worked in factories, I understand the concept of "piece work" quite well. Quality Control suffers somewhat unless the business is very strict about acceptable standards and have reliable inspectors to enforce the standards. As an employee, you are pushed to produce more and faster... quality suffers.

As for S&W, I haven't had a problem that I can identify as significant. I don't normally shoot thousands of rounds a year in a handgun either. I would buy another Smith revolver in a minute over most of the other maufacturers including Ruger unless Smith does not offer the product I am looking for.

harmon rabb
December 14, 2010, 09:33 AM
Even if there were no quality issues, I don't know why anyone would pay the premium for a new S&W revolver over a new Ruger revolver.

IBEWBULL
December 14, 2010, 01:48 PM
I always liked Ruger handguns but the finish was not as good as I like I has a Vaquero with the chemical treated faux case hardening, bas rust magnet in my opinion. I have some MKII .22s and love them. If they brought back the security or service six I woiuld get one in 2 1/2 inch or 3 if possible.I think a high polish blue option could be done for the picky buyers like me.
Not that I think they could ever compete with the Browning and Python standards in quality.
I just like shiny things I guess. Not that I don't use the Glocks and other parkerized looking guns.
beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My engraved Uberty proves this.
Can someone tell me how to post photos on here. I am a newby to the site.

Big_John1961
December 14, 2010, 03:29 PM
The S&W quality issue has been hashed and rehashed so many times that it's past tiring--especially when you realize that the beating of this particular dead horse has been going on since before most people on this forum were born.

There's no getting around the fact that S&W makes guns more cheaply now than in the past. Depending on the model, they've eliminated many (to nearly all) of the hand-finishing steps. However, I doubt anyone here can actually cite statistics that show an inexorable decline in accuracy, functionality or dependability. Seriously. All we get are logical fallacies:

1.) "I bought a new S&W that was defective. My other S&Ws weren't. Therefore, S&W quality is declining." No, you're just one guy that bought a crappy gun. Just be glad the Bangor Punta days are over. They made some real turkeys back then.
2.) "All the used S&Ws I see worked great. Therefore, S&W quality is declining." No, this is selection bias. The guns still being bought and sold on the used market tend to be the ones that still work. If they didn't they were repaired or scrapped or otherwise taken out of circulation.
3) "S&Ws are crap. Therefore Brand-X must be better." Really? What does one thing have to do with another?

A lot of the new guns are ugly and look cheaply made. I buy guns for more than functionality and I appreciate the craftsmanship of the older guns. But, with no way to compare past or future defect rates this whole debate is internet bluster. If you want to throw around terms like "apologist" at least base your argument on data.


Well stated.

Waywatcher
December 14, 2010, 03:43 PM
Unless I see something drastic change at S&W, I will continue to abstain from their products.*

Like the OP, my headache originated with a J-Frame Snub. It keyholed with everyload I tried. Looked closer at the muzzle and it looked oblong. Sent it back to S&W. When I got it back, it had a new problem; now the cylinder scraped on the (new) barrel. :banghead:

Good grief. Two tries and they couldn't get it right. After it's third time at the factory I ditched it for a Ruger LCR.

I hope they start making good guns. I would really like to own some quality sixguns from them, but I cant tolerate junk.

For the record, I can and do pay more for quality guns. But I pay less for a Ruger and it has higher quality. :uhoh:

Marshall
December 14, 2010, 05:50 PM
Sorry to hear about your trouble.

10 degrees? Could you not see this while inspecting the gun before you bought it?

MissouriCrowinMass
December 15, 2010, 12:54 AM
My first experience with S&W Service & Repair came this month. I love older S&W revolvers. I have quite a few. Eveyone I purchased used. I purchased a 625 JM used in the Fall. The extractor rod loosened up and jammed the cyclinder about the third time out. I may have bent it opening it? The barrel/cyclinder gap exceeded .012 on one side. And.......I swear the crown looked funny to me. (I didn't notice any of this when I purchased it.) Plus, it shot very inaccuartely compared to my other Smiths.

I asked our Dealer in Woburn to send it back to S&W and I told them the truth.....it may have been me that bent the extractor rod? In 3 weeks (today), I got it back with a new barrel, cyclinder, extractor rod and center pin. Cost $0.

SMITH & WESSON is OK in my book!

Guillermo
December 15, 2010, 01:04 AM
SMITH & WESSON is OK in my book!


in the 90's I bought a new Smith and it had a factory defect. They handled it quickly.

My disdain for them has nothing to do with their speed of service.

dallascj
December 15, 2010, 01:18 AM
Personally, the only way to avoid these types of issues is to thoroughly check the firearm out before you make the purchase. I have S&W's, Rugers, and yes, many Taurus revolvers-none of which has ever had an issue. I don't mind the bashing-the more people that hate these guns, then the lower the prices. Just bought a new 638 Bodyguard yesterday and am very pleased with it. Price drop plus $50 rebate means $340 out the door for this gun.

CDawg
December 15, 2010, 02:01 AM
I can't justify buying any of the new breed of S&W revolvers. I can get what I want in revolvers by buying old Smiths with better parts in them for the the same price and in most cases for much less.

CajunBass
December 15, 2010, 12:03 PM
10 degrees? Could you not see this while inspecting the gun before you bought it?

Apparently no one does this anymore with any brand of gun, or much of anything else anymore. Some of the problems I read people reporting, I'd be ashamed to come here and say I'd had it happen to me.

Guillermo
December 15, 2010, 12:08 PM
Some of the problems I read people reporting, I'd be ashamed to come here and say I'd had it happen to me

CajunBass,

While I certainly understand your point, it is a reasonable expectation that a new product of any kind would be 100%.

When it is not the fault is on the producer of the product, not the customer that trusted them to do a good job.

CajunBass
December 15, 2010, 12:45 PM
Well, no it's not, but by the same token, if I'm going to buy it, I'm going to look it over, and look it over close, before I hand over my money. I'm the final inspector. And that's something I've always done, at least with big ticket items.

If it's not right, take it back and get another one.

If the sights are 10 deg off it's the manufacturers fault for making it that way, but it's YOUR fault for buying it.

glocking26
December 15, 2010, 01:02 PM
Is it time to start the boycott again until S+W starts making guns that work right out if the box again?? I wish someone from S+W would read some of these posts on the gun boards.

John Wayne
December 15, 2010, 01:11 PM
Take a look at the thread I started here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=559696

I'm not making apologies for S&W. All I'm saying is that people are too quick to say, "S&W sucks, buy a Ruger" or "Ruger and S&W quality control is lousy, might as well buy a Taurus." Most of the alternate brands people suggest (at least in the same price range) have a similar reputation.

Personally, I have only bought one S&W revolver new. It is a 442, with the lock, and I have had no problems with it so far. Each time I buy an older S&W I think "wow, I've got one from the good ol' days" and then look online to find out someone else thinks it's crap.

I have owned firearms from manufacturers with an excellent reputation for quality/reliability that had problems out of the box. You can't be absolutely sure a product made by any company is a quality product until you test it.

Big_John1961
December 15, 2010, 01:50 PM
I'm involved in several hobbies that require gear; photography, firearms, cars and watches. There is not one product I've ever come across in any of those avocations that did not have its detractors, regardless of how good the product actually was. I think it's that way for just about any piece of machinery you can think of.

It's just the nature of the beast, and the proliferation of the internet only exacerbates the issue. Most of the time on forums like this one, you are going to hear about the problems much more than you hear about the good things. S&W firearms are no different. Every manufacturer produces lemons.

Thaddeus Jones
December 15, 2010, 02:01 PM
"Every manufacturer produces lemons."

Yes, and evidently the current company calling itself S&W, owns an orchard! :)

Funshooter45
December 15, 2010, 02:07 PM
Hmmm... very interesting and thought-provoking thread here. I have been sorta considering buying a handgun that might suit my wife. She's not anti-gun, more like she just doesn't care about my main hobby, but now she's mentioned that she might give it a better trial if she had a gun that she liked better. She has shot several of my SA revolvers, and she thinks they are too heavy. Of course, she doesn't understand the fact that the recoil is pleasant because they are heavy. So, I let her try my Model 60 with a 3" barrel. She thinks THAT one is too heavy as well.

So... anyway that leads me to think that one possibility for her would be the Ruger LCR or the S&W 642 or 637. We were in the local gunshop the other day for a few minutes and she held them both and agreed that they both felt pretty comfortable.

We didn't have the time to get serious about it then. But I was pleasantly surprised to see that the S&W 642 was priced loower than the Ruger. I have both S&W and Rugers (all older models) and I like them all just fine. But I have just come to expect that the S&W revolvers will be better fitted and feel more refined than Rugers. And they will cost quite a bit more too.

So, reading this has opened my eyes a bit. Evidently, my great feelings about S&W based on my 30-year old versions are not entirely warranted when it comes to brand new revolvers.

This thread has not convinced me one way or the other entirely. But it has made me a bit more cautious so that I will do my homework more throughly when we get closer to the actual purchase point.

Benzene
December 15, 2010, 11:06 PM
So, I guess the "mantra" about "you get what you pay for" must now be re-examined in light of the pricey and famous S&W.;)

mr.trooper
December 15, 2010, 11:44 PM
I'm tired of S&W. Why cant they just STOP making me spend money?

I've got 4 smiths, and they are all a joy to shoot- where do they get off?

To make matters worse, the ONE time I had a minor problem, they fell all over themselves to fix it, and paid shipping BOTH ways. THE NERVE!

:fire:

Guillermo
December 15, 2010, 11:56 PM
If the sights are 10 deg off it's the manufacturers fault for making it that way, but it's YOUR fault for buying it

Again, while I do not disagree...we all look at new products with a much less critical eye than used items.

For instance, I get down on my knee and look down the side of a used car, looking for imperfections in fit and paint hue. I look in the trunk and fenders to look at the gaps to try to determine if the car had been wrecked.

A new car I walk around and look at the paint and the gaps. I have NEVER been under a new car...I have been under used cars.

Am I a fool if I don't check out a new car as thoroughly?

Maybe so.

And I know that you are going to respond that "the sight sticking straight up is OBVIOUS" and were you to do so, you would be right.

So in the end...I agree with you, but with less force behind the opinion.

Onmilo
December 16, 2010, 10:41 AM
Kinda off topic but has anybody heard that CZ is going to start building the Dan Wesson 715 revolver line?
I am curious how that is going to turn out.

Dan Wessons could be some hella accurate guns in their day.

*Klutch*
December 16, 2010, 11:28 AM
Yea way of topic. There is a thread here on this subject just a few down the list, check it out.

sansone
December 16, 2010, 11:44 AM
I am also done with S&W... they are so expensive I can't even move them out of my store. It is not the cost as much as you would think. If you can't see a difference in quality between a smith and a cheaper revolver, who's gonna buy it? On the other hand I can move BHP's no sweat, and look how much THEY cost

If you enjoyed reading about "I've had enough of S&W" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!