[msg2020]

Hi guys i have a 1911 and i want to remove the manuf name city and state ect how can it be done can i do it myself ? or should i send it to a gunsmith how much do they charge ball park ? thank you

[CapnMac]

Might be easiest to just buy a plain-sided slide.
Now, whether it will fit well on your frame could be another question. But, the smithing needed to fit a frame could be less than the time needed to fill in rollstamping, too.

[dfariswheel]

There are two basic methods of doing this.

One is to actually fill in the stamping.
This can be done with a special filler material. Lauer Duracoat sells one.
The problem with this type of filler is that no chemical finish like bluing or parkerizing will work with it, since it's not a metal.
If you're going to apply a paint type finish like Duracoat, it works.

The other type of filling is to have a master gunsmith/welder actually use a welder to fill the stampings, then re-surface the slide to level it out.
The problems here are several.
First, getting a finish to match. When the slide is re-blued or finished with most finishes, you can almost always see the weld area as a slightly different color under the finish.
Second, the cost is high. You need a top professional gunsmith who's also a top welder to do this without ruining the slide. Finding such an expert and affording the cost is tough.

The next way of dealing with stampings is to remove metal until you get to the bottom of the stampings.
In some cases this requires significant metal removal, and this may leave the slide "lop sided" from having more metal removed from one side.
This requires an expert in metal polishing to do it right. The flats have to be maintained, and that's not as easy as you might think.
A bad polishing job will leave ripples in the flats, and often intrude on the rounded areas.
To do the metal removal method, talk to a top gun re-finisher service like APW/Cogan or Ford's.

[Ron James]

I know you have a good reason for wanting this done, how about sharing with the rest of us.

[Nushif]

I'd love to have all the extraneous info (read: everything but the serial number required by law) removed, too.
I also like very clean and uncluttered workplaces, minimalist art and design and simple lines. The OPs request sounds quite legit to me. 8)

[Confederate]

As ill-advised as it is, if you really want to do it, use a Dremel to remove the words, then a Brillo pad or stainless steel wool to even things out. After that, you can have the gun is refinished.

A plain gun is sort of boring, but you can have it engraved. And refinishing it can cover a multitude of sins.

[Shadow 7D]

actually I would check the legality, I know that law requires a minimum of information to be on a gun, and you might be removing too much

Silver solder dropped on a warmed slide, should stick well enough and blend well with stainless or white, but a for a finished slide, I would redo it with GUNKOTE, or Dura-Coat, and fill in with bondo, autobody stuff.

[Jim Watson]

As dfaris said, Lauer makes a product called Durafil to level irregularities - and fill in "billboard" markings - before applying Duracoat. I would not try auto or hardware products like Bondo, epoxy, or solder.

I have seen pictures of slides surface ground or flat sanded to remove markings. They usually come out pretty well, although it takes careful work to either miss or recut the serrations. One guy said he sanded his SA EMP so hard as to "damage the structural integrity" and had to buy a new slide. Sounds like an extreme case.

I have seen guns with pits and gouges welded up and resurfaced. I would limit that to a mistreated rare gun in an expensive and detailed restoration, not a fixup of a standard model. Better to have one built from scratch; Caspian will sell you an unmarked slide and a frame with only the legal requirements of maker and serial number.

[DasFriek]

I just did this with my Taurus PT1911 prior to having it refinished, Even added a carry bevel/melt job.
I just used 60# grit sandpaper and placed it on glass and after many hours i had both billboards ground off. The billboards luckily aren't half as deep as the serial number so its fully intact and the same with where it was made and by whom.
Stock
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00250.jpg

Initial slide sanding done.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00284.jpg

Bevel and melt job under way.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00310.jpg

Ready for the refinisher.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/deathstar13/DSC00307.jpg


Im awaiting the gun back from the Refinisher who is Parkerizing it first, And the coating with KG GunKote. I should have had it back by now so im getting very anxious and stressed as i miss this gun as i also rebuilt it from the pins and springs up with all high end parts i hand fit.
I now own the worlds most expensive gun thats worth $350 on trade-in.

[Nushif]

Love what you did to that PT1911 ... Care if I send you my PT911 (still not a typo) and you do that same thing for me? >.<
I'd pay!

[DasFriek]

It was alot of work but i think will pay off when i get my gun back.
I don't work on other peoples guns tho, Sorry. Too many liabilities and im no pro, just a hobbyist.
It actually would have looked really good had i just left it alone and how it looked in the second picture. In the rest of the pics it progressively got uglier as the work continued. But i wanted a bevel and melt job done since i do ccw with this gun.
But im told by the refinisher that all the exterior work came out looking great, Now i just have to see it for myself.

Really it isnt hard work at all, Just time consuming. The slide is flat on the sides anyhow so all you have to do is push it back and forth and make sure its in a straight line.
You could even progress up to higher grits and make it look like a high polished Stainless Steel, But you may need a baked on layer of clear coating as white steel will rust and pit easily if not watched closely.

[Nushif]

I did the side of my PT911 (Yup, still no typo) in silver as well, but didn't quite go as deep as you. After some 600, then 800, then 1k grit sandpaper I can see myself pretty clearly in it.

[DasFriek]

Don't worry i know what the PT911 is as ive owned a few Tauri.
But i had to double check pics online of your gun as i wasn't sure of the exact slide shape.
Id definitely tape up any parts that may accidentally get scratched during the process.
Im not sure how deep the marks go on yours, Mine wasn't too deep but it still goes deeper than what you think.
The billboards penetrate the metal and affect it under what you see so you still have a ways to go even after all the physical marks are gone. Its like a shadow you can see in the steel that is affected when the roll mark is done.

Is yours stainless? If not you need to make sure you keep a good protectant on it.

[mcdonl]

I would replace the slide. If you ever need to sell it, people will be hesitant to purchase a "no name" gun that has obviously been modified. This way, you can keep the original slide to put back on the gun.

[Trent]

Be careful doing this. The law may not work in your favor. Modifying a serial number, even a little, and even if it's still visible and legible, can be bad news.

Granted, the only serial number that MATTERS is the one on the receiver (frame). In the above pics, the barrel and slide serial #'s do NOT matter as far as the law is concerned, those are not "firearms", the frame is. But the law itself is gray, in that it doesn't specify WHICH serial numbers - it blanket covers ANY serial number being modified in ANY way.

As far as that frame, receiver modifications must be made with great care - usually for repair only - as a modified receiver can normally be construed as "making a new firearm".

If you strip a serial # off the frame thinking that it's OK since there's still two more serial #'s, one on the barrel, and one on the slide, you just created an illegal firearm.

[DasFriek]

Replacing the slide isn't worth it on a $600 lower end gun that has a trade-in value of $350-$400.
I say that as most of the companies putting these big billboards on guns are the lower priced ones.
But even so mine still read "Taurus-Made in Brazil" or something close to that as i don't have the gun back yet, But its above the serial number.

If done right i think someone can tell a gun was modified for aesthetics and making it more appealing and functional, Rather than a gun ground down due to excess abuse.

But if it were a Colt,Mid grade SA or Kimber the second slide would be a good option like you say and even add value since two slides would be sold with the gun.

But on a gun like my Taurus it still would be worth $350.
I didnt mention this but before i did all the slide sanding and beveling and melting i rebuilt the gun from the pins and springs up with all high end parts thats are machined and no MIM from Wilson,Baer and Brown and EGW and hand fitted each one. Only the bare frame/slide and barrel is original.
I have $1500 in the gun in parts and refinish and cost of gun alone. Adding a new factory slide would do nothing to help my case.

Ill add why i did such a waste of money as many would see with this gun.
This was my first 1911 that taught me how to work on them and modify and hand fit parts to them as well as diagnose issues.
Secondly ive put 2k rounds threw it before the rebuild with only failures when a part was dieing and needed replaced, Like a magazine and an extractor that needed replaced. So its been very reliable as long as i do my part and keep up on maintenance.
Its a shooter for sure, Even out of the box it was smooth and easy to shoot like no other gun ive shot, But it was my first 1911 also.
Lastly, But most importantly. The trigger group was ruined by me in a botched trigger job, So as a birthday present my ailing older parents i take care of bought me high end parts to replace the ruined ones and i knew right then i could never get rid of the gun.

It may say Taurus in a few spots, But in my mind its a (Don XXXX) made gun.
But sadly its only worth $350 on trade in, But to me its priceless.
I purposely buried myself so deep into it money wise so i couldn't ever sell it and live with myself.
Ill also say id put it against many high end semi customs in how it shoots and accuracy as many improvements were done that Taurus doesn't do and its well known Taurus 1911's are very accurate guns as it is.

But don't get me wrong, Im not delusional. I know its no WC,Baer or Brown.
But its a gun that no one would be ashamed to own.

mcdonl- Just so you know my post wasn't aimed at you as i know you was speaking to the OP, But it just got my mind thinking and typing so pls don't take anything i said to offense as its not something aimed at you, Its just me talking about my gun.

[DasFriek]

Trent- I don't disagree with what you say, But would find it almost improbable that messing with a slides serial number just slightly removing some excess metal but still leaving the number fully legible and the Manufacturer and country of origin still intact that it would take any Gov. agency to have a big issue with you and just looking for any excuse to nail you with a crime to be that picky.
In most cases, Unless it was altering the serial number on the frame id say you chance of issues are very low.
But it is wise to keep it in mind as you have stated, Better safe than sorry.
Luckily the serial numbers are 3x as deep as any other stamps or roll marks on the gun so it has almost no affect on the stuff thats important.

But all guns are different, It may help if the OP stated what gun he was wanting this work done on.

[GeoffC]

Yeah, sorry, but thats nonsense, you can modify a receiver all you want provided you arent turning a rifle into a short barreled rifle or something that crosses into NFA stuff. Modifying a receiver is in no way "creating a new firearm". Everyday hundreds of 1911 frames are "modified".

Serial numbers, the one on the frame must be there, if something happens to it, it can be restamped. Sometimes during refinishing this does happen.

If it was illegal to do away with a slide SN, then it would by the same token be illegal to replace a slide or barrel.

modify all ya want, the only thing that has to be on your pistol is a sn on the frame.

[jimmyraythomason]

What state are you in? It can make a BIG difference. In Alabama such modification is illegal. <http://law.onecle.com/alabama/criminal-code/13A-11-64.html>Section 13A-11-64 - Alteration, etc., of manufacturer's number, etc., of firearm; possession, etc., of firearm after identification altered.
A person who either:

(1) Changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number or other mark or identification of any firearm, or

(2) Possesses, obtains, receives, sells, or uses a firearm after the maker, model, manufacturer's number or other mark or identification has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated, is guilty of a Class C felony.

(Acts 1982, No. 82-430, §3.)
I would suggest you check your states laws before doing anything irreversible.

[GeoffC]

This is on the FRAME only. You can do whatever you want to a slide...

If you could not, Brownells and Midway would cease shipping to Alabama or where ever....


somewhere on that frame is stamped the maker, and the sn, thats all it needs

[Sam1911]

But the law itself is gray, in that it doesn't specify WHICH serial numbers - it blanket covers ANY serial number being modified in ANY way.
From a legal standpoint, only the receiver or frame IS a firearm. The atf doesn't regulate items like barrels and slides which are NOT firearms. Foreign-made weapons often had serial numbers applied to a great many parts, down to stocks and magazines. You can replace any of those secondary items, or modify them, at will. ONLY the one on that one controlled part (reciever, frame, etc.) matters at all.

As far as that frame, receiver modifications must be made with great care - usually for repair only - as a modified receiver can normally be construed as "making a new firearm".

This is not at all true. Modify all you want. Tens of thousands of firearms are heavily modified by gunsmiths and hobbyists every year. You can do pretty much anything you want so long as you don't cross into NFA "Title II" territory (like by adding a buttstock or vertical fore-grip to a pistol) and you don't obliterate the serial number.

Even if the second part of that statement was true, there is no law (federally, or in most states) against making a new firearm, so what difference would that make?

[jimmyraythomason]

This is on the FRAME only. You can do whatever you want to a slide... While I agree with you in principle that isn't what the law says. The Alabama law makes no distinction as to where the markings are located on the firearm.

[Sam1911]

The Alabama law makes no distinction as to where the markings are located on the firearm.

What is the definition of a "firearm" under Alabama law, then? Do they use the federal definitions, or have they expressly stated that they consider a firearm to be inclusive of other bits and pieces bolted to what the federal government regulates as a "firearm?"

[jimmyraythomason]

What is the definition of a "firearm" under Alabama law,Perhaps Alabama's definition of a firearm would be a moot point if the OP would give his state. If he isn't in Alabama(unless his state has a similar law) it won't matter. All I did was to suggest the OP check his state laws before doing anything drastic using my state as an example of what he may run into. Not to to defend or explain my state's laws or legal definitions.

[Sam1911]

Not to to defend or explain my state's laws or legal definitions.


Well, O.k. But you did post part of AL's law and then went on to explain how part of it applies. So I was asking if you had that other critical piece of info.

If you don't know how AL defines what consititues a firearm, just say so.

[JShirley]

Here's the definition from Alabama state law (http://www.ago.alabama.gov/issue/Alabama_Weapon_Law.pdf):

(2) FIREARM. Any pistol, rifle, shotgun or firearm of any kind, whether loaded or not.

I'm a little embarrassed, since I'm originally from Alabama, that they used the word to define itself. I'm sorry, really. :o

Further:

DIVISION 1A. RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS.
§ 13A-11-62. Definitions.
For purposes of this division, the following terms shall have the following meanings,
unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:
(1) FIREARM. Definition is same as provided in Section 13A-8-1(4).

(2) RIFLE. Any weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be
fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy
of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a
rifled bore for each pull of the trigger.

(3) SHOTGUN. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be
fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy
of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of
ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

(4) SHORT-BARRELED RIFLE. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches
in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or
otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

(5) SHORT-BARRELED SHOTGUN. A shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18
inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than
26 inches.
and

§ 13A-11-70. Definitions.
For the purposes of this division, the following terms shall have the respective meanings
ascribed by this section:
(1) PISTOL. Any firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches in length

[jimmyraythomason]

If you don't know how AL defines what consititues a firearm, just say so.
Alabama Code 13a Definitions;section 13a-8-1.4(4) FIREARM. A weapon from which a shot is discharged by gunpowder.
That is it in it's entirety. You are free to double check me if you wish.

[JShirley]

It is ludicrous to believe that Alabama, a state with one of the very most liberal- in a positive sense- carry and firearms laws, will somehow be more restrictive than federal firearms law.

Which is:


The GCA defines the term “firearm” as:
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

From atf.gov.

[Sam1911]

You are free to double check me if you wish.
Thanks -- I think I found it about the same time you did. So simple it's confusing! :)

The issue is that really seems to cover ANY mark on a gun. If AL really treats all the parts of a firearm the same way (in this one specific place) then if your autopistol has the caliber stamped on it, you might be breaking the law to drop in a new barrel!

Now, one way to try to figure this out would be to look at case law and see if anyone has ever been charged or convicted for buffing off "Colt's Mfg." off their SAA or whatever. That might be difficult to find, though.

Another way to look at it is to try and discern how other laws regulating firearms are administered. Seems you need an AL pistol dealer's license to sell handguns. Does someone need a dealer's license to sell pistol slides, triggers, hammers and other small parts?

[rscalzo]

I see no problem legally with replacement or modification of the slide. It is not part or the controlled portion of the firearm. the frame must contain the make and sn. They are the two mandatory items for entry into the NCIS Gun file if needed for any reason. The other areas are only added identifiers.

Beyond that, cleaning off the name on the slide is perfectly legal. It was a popular medication when S&W started their billboard slides on early 1911's.

the issue is cost effectivness.

[jimmyraythomason]

I don't believe Alabama (or MOST any other state) would go to the time,effort and expense to prosecute anyone for doing as the OP is contemplating. However, they COULD as the aforementioned law is written,which is my sole point.

[minutemen1776]

It is ludicrous to believe that Alabama, a state with one of the very most liberal- in a positive sense- carry and firearms laws, will somehow be more restrictive than federal firearms law.

Until this year, Alabama criminalized the possession of a SBS or SBR, regardless of whether you paid the $200 NFA tax. Alabama also requires a concealed-carry license to keep a pistol in your car, even if you don't carry it on your person.

Yes, Alabama has mostly gun-friendly laws/policies, but it still has its quirks.

[DasFriek]

WOW, You guys took the fun out of this thread. lol
It is on topic and im not a mod, But going from discussing how to physically do mods too legal mumbo jumbo killed my interest in the thread.
But that happens, As i said it really is related but going that deep into laws bores me to death as i cant even understand half of whats being said.

But if you could pls can we get back to that main subject at hand?

[jimmyraythomason]

Sorry DasFriek,it was unintentional,I assure you. All I wanted to do was make you aware (if you weren't) that state laws should also be taken into account before doing anything irreversable and it just got away from me. As for your original topic,I suggest replacing the slide with a generic model and save the original.

[DasFriek]

No biggy, Isn't my thread anyhow.
What happened was still somewhat on topic and related, Just very boring to me.
But im sure many others who like law and policies would enjoy it.

I think it comes down to the value of the gun as to whether you go with a second slide or not, As i know it wouldn't be worth buying a second spare slide for my PT1911.
But on a Colt id agree and say buy it.

[SuperNaut]

I guess you guys missed the part where the serial number hasn't been removed from either the OP's pistol or DasFrieks?

Don't run with scissors folks.

[bsctov]

DasFriek,

That trigger looks like it would be brutal on the finger after awhile.

[DasFriek]

Mine still has three places on it with serial numbers. The frame/slide and barrel.

Ahh the trigger, its more of an illusion.
This is the actual part, And its very comfy.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=45285/sku/EGW_SOLID_BLANK_TRIGGER

If you notice in the first picture it slightly curved and silver in color as thats how it came stock. But its not what i wanted in the end as i wanted a absolute flat trigger after looking at it. I again broke out the glass and sandpaper and filed the face flat, And then contoured the edges with files and sandpaper.

If you notice in the pics after the first one its black. I shot it with Krylon before sending it to the refinisher as i wasn't sure what finish i wanted on it.
Considering it was aluminum it was subject to scratches and i liked the black color so i had the refinisher refinish it in black so it would have a tough coating and not get scratched. One reason for the soft metal on the sides was i had to remove some width to get it in the gun, That removed what ever hardened surface to resist scratches EGW uses, So at that point i figured i may as well make it exactly how i liked it. EGW is well known for making everything oversized, But this time it came back to bite me a bit.
I have long fingers and the reach is perfect imo, But it may not be for everyone.

I believe ive put 300 rounds threw the gun with the trigger and it was very nice imo. Many people will swear by flat triggers and some hate them, But you just gotta try it to find out.
Its funny how just a simple comment can lead to such a long answer, But me and this gun went threw a few weeks together with files,sandpaper and fine tuning. Hardly no part went untouched including all the after market parts i fit to it, Many of those were modified also. Its truly done exactly how i wanted it.

[minutemen1776]

I guess you guys missed the part where the serial number hasn't been removed from either the OP's pistol or DasFrieks?

No. I think the point that was being made is that, at least in some jurisdictions, there may be a problem with removing markings other than the serial number. Laws vary, and some make more sense than others, but I don't want anyone to go to jail just because they were trying to make a firearm more aesthetically pleasing.

[CraigC]

I can see a lot of merit in doing this. A lot of new guns have some really ugly lettering, like the above-modified Taurus. S&W's are not much better. Though I must stress that such an operation should never be attempted with a Dremel. FAAAAR better to start with a file and end with a sanding block. You'll never get an even finish with a Dremel and the world would be a better place if folks stopped using Dremels on firearms.

[jimmyraythomason]

Dremel and the world would be a better place if folks stopped using Dremels on firearms. Better if those of us who do use Dremel's use them at the right place at the right time. A Dremel is a very useful tool for gun work when properly used. Slide flats are NOT a place for a rotary tool. A plane mill could work though.

[dewalt-2]

DasFriek, you forgot about me. We've exchanged comments before on forums. You have the second most expensive PT1911 on the planet, but only because I put an Ed Brown match barrel in mine...
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af120/Radar-1/004-6.jpg
I hope you get yours back soon, and it shoots as well as mine does.

[Nasty]

IMO, if a firearm costs $600, and is worth $350-$400 used, the same firearm heavily refinished (a warning sign to me as *I* have no idea why it had to be refinished, might have come off the bottom of a lake), it is worth significantly *less* than the same one untouched.

It'd drop to less than $250 if it were my money going to it.

[PRM]

deleted

[jimmyraythomason]

The bottom line is to build what you can't buy,do it legally and make it fit your needs/wants. Nothing else,other's opinions,resale "value",etc. matters.

[Trent]

Guys, the problem is this.

Even if you LEAVE the serial number intact, IF YOU REMOVE THE MANUFACTURER AND/OR IMPORTERS NAME YOU HAVE EFFECTIVELY BROKEN THE LAW. PERIOD.

How are they supposed to trace a weapon using ONLY the serial #, if they CAN NOT IDENTIFY THE MANUFACTURER AND/OR IMPORTER?

They can NOT do so. And they CAN convict you of a felony for obliterating the name, even if you leave the serial # intact.

[Sam1911]

Trent, what law are you speaking of? You can't "effectively" break the law if you haven't actually broken the law. The specific words used in the legal text are important.

TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 44, § 922, (k) says,
It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce

So federally, all that matters is the serial number on the controlled part of the firearm.

Please show us what statute makes it illegal to remove other markings.

If you cannot find a specific law, please show us what court cases (case law) have established the precedent that doing so is illegal.

It may make perfect sense, to you, that you need more than that one piece of data to establish the gun's identity. However, if it isn't illegal to remove that other information, then it ... isn't ... illegal.

[Trent]

Edited to make my text a different color so it's easier to identify what I wrote, vs. what I included from the ATF. What I wrote is BLUE. Information from the ATF is black / red.

Sorry to take all the fun out of the thread, guys. Removal of make/model/caliber, even from a slide or barrel, would violate 26 U.S.C. 5842.

Replacements to slides or barrels which would obliterate make/model/caliber, made either by individuals, or gunsmiths, also need to be reported to the ATF if there are not a duplicate set of markings on the frame of the weapon.

Fact is, if you remove Make/Model/Caliber from a weapon, you make it impossible for the ATF to trace (it will fail the trace since the first stop they make is manufacturer / importer). If the manufacturer or importer cannot be identified, the weapon cannot be traced, period.

You may think to yourself "yeah, my gun will never be used in a crime, so what's the big deal? I'm not going to go hold up a liquor store or bank."

It *is* a big deal, however, if your weapon is ever stolen.

Supplementary information to above:

The ATF requires more than just the serial number to be marked on a weapon, see the following publication for guidelines:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/qb/2001/atf-quarterly-bulletin-2001-volume-3-treasury-decisions-sub-c.pdf

Specifically, this text:

Section 923(i) of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended (18 U.S.C. Chapter 44), requires licensed importers and licensed manufacturers to identify, by means of a serial number, each firearm imported or manufactured. The serial number must be engraved, cast, or stamped on the receiver or frame of the weapon in such manner as the Secretary of the Treasury prescribes by regulation. With respect to certain firearms subject to the National Firearms Act (e.g., machine guns), 26 U.S.C. 5842 requires each
manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm to identify each firearm by a serial number. The serial number may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered. Section 5842 also requires the firearm to be identified by the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may prescribe by regulation.

Regulations that implement section 923(i) are set forth in 27 CFR 178.92. In general, this section requires each licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms to legibly identify each firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the frame or receiver an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. Section 178.92 also requires licensed importers and licensed manufacturers to conspicuously place the following identification markings on the frame, receiver, or barrel of each firearm imported or manufactured in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed:

1. The model, if such designation has been made;
2. The caliber or gauge;
3. The name (or recognized abbreviation of same) of the manufacturer and also, when applicable, of the importer;
4. In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where the licensed manufacturer maintains its place of business; and
5. In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which manufactured and the city and State (or recognized abbreviation thereof) where the importer maintains its place of business.

The same marking requirements appear in regulations issued under the National Firearms Act at 27 CFR 179.102




In addition, trace requests are required to include the make, model, caliber, and serial # of the weapon. Multiple manufacturers may use the same Serial # range, so serial # alone is insufficient for tracing a firearm. Weapons missing make/model/caliber designations are considered having an "obliterated" serial number for purposes of the law.

From the ATF website, this is in the brochure they train police agencies with:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-3312-12.pdf

REQUIRED MARKINGS
U.S. MANUFACTURED FIREARMS
• SERIAL NUMBER (taken from FRAME or RECEIVER)
• MANUFACTURER (Name, City and State)
• CALIBER (expressed .38, 9mm, 7.62X25, 12Ga, etc.)
• MODEL (if designated, expressed J-25, P86, Python, etc.)

IMPORTED (FOREIGN MANUFACTURED) FIREARMS
• SERIAL NUMBER (taken from FRAME or RECEIVER)
• COUNTRY OF ORIGIN (example: “Made in Italy”)
• IMPORTER (Name, City and State; be aware of abbreviations)
• MANUFACTURER (example: Norinco, Bersa, FN, etc.)
• CALIBER (expressed .38, 9mm, 7.62X25, 12Ga, etc.)
• MODEL (if designated, expressed J-25, P86, Python, etc.)
(See following pages for examples)

NOTE: Older firearms (manufactured or imported before 1968)
may lack some of these markings including serial number



From another ATF publication:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/ycgii/2000/ycgii-report-2000-general-findings.pdf

Reasons Traces Not Initiated and Purchasers Not Identified. As displayed in Table 11 and Figure 5, the primary reason traces were not initiated is that 7,782 trace requests (9 percent of all trace requests) identified firearms manufactured prior to 1969.

Table 11 separates the reasons why traces that were initiated did not successfully identify a purchaser into two main categories: Terminated at the Manufacturer/Importer Stage and Terminated at the Wholesale/ Retail Dealer Stage.

Traces were terminated at the manufacturer or importer stage of the tracing process in 18,181 requests (21 percent of all requests and 24 percent of initiated traces), primarily because of incomplete or inaccurate information about the serial number on 9,572 firearms (11 percent of all requests and 12 percent of all initiated traces).

Traces were terminated at the wholesale or retail dealer stage of the tracing process in 10,091 requests (11 percent of all requests and 13 percent of all initiated traces), primarily because the dealers reported that they had no records on 6,043 firearms (7 percent of all trace requests and 8 percent of all initiated traces). The flow of cases from Trace Initiated to Purchaser Identified to Purchaser Not Identified is presented in Figure 5

[Trent]

Anyway sorry for the long post, but removal of make, model, caliber, OR serial number violates federal statute. It *MAY* be done by either a registered gunsmith with an FFL, or by an individual, *IF* you submit a letter to the ATF and receive approval for a variation of marks, AND you receive an approval letter.

Changing out the marks for make, model, caliber, or serial number constitutes making a new firearm under federal law. Regardless of whether they are located on the slide, barrel, or receiver, per the above statutes.

Obliterating the marks for make, model, caliber, or serial number constitutes creating an illegal firearm under federal law, per the above statutes.

Putting a slab sided slide on the weapon, for all intents and purposes, creates an illegal weapon per US Statute, *IF* there are not marks elsewhere on the weapon indicating the original make, model, and caliber.

Sorry to be a PITA, but just wanting to make sure you guys understand this because it *can* land you 10 years in club fed.

[Olympus]

I don't guess I understand completely. So how are companies legally able to make aftermarket slides? Because it looks like the Taurus frame only includes the S/N, not make or model. So if this were true, anyone who has put an aftermarket slide on their Taurus 1911 has broken federal law? It seems like if that were the case, companies that sold the aftermarket slides would be putting out legal disclaimers to keep them from being held liable. Something just doesn't make a lot of sense to me...

[Sam1911]

I see a lot of text on what a manufacturer or importer must put on the gun.

I don't see anything except 922(k) that says it is illegal for an owner to remove any of that information.

What effect any of that has on a firearm trace is not the responsibility of the owner. There are many ways a trace can dead-end -- e.g.: a private sale or two along the way.

You say "Weapons missing make/model/caliber designations are considered having an "obliterated" serial number for purposes of the law," but you haven't shown any verification of that.

Case law would be helpful, if you can't find specific legal text that spells out what you believe to be true.

[Trent]

Manufacturers, gunsmiths, or individuals making "repairs" or "alterations" to firearms must duplicate ALL manufacturer, model, caliber, and serial # markings that were on the original weapon when replacing marked parts. 922 covers the COMMERCE of firearms (whether it's legal to SELL the weapon), there's a whole different set of regulations when you are working on, repairing, or replacing parts.

I had to go through this previously as an FFL, for when rebarreling rifles to a new caliber. I was unclear at the time, so I made a call to the ATF tech division for clarification. They informed me that changing the caliber on the rifle was in effect making a new firearm and required new marks, and directed me to fill out Form 1 for permission (EDIT: this was indicated because I was a "dealer of" and not a "manufacturer of" firearms):

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

And when completed, to submit Form 2 to identify the new markings on the weapon:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-2.pdf

You can do this as an individual as well, no FFL required, UNLESS you are doing it for someone else; in which case it DOES require an FFL.

FYI, You'd be surprised how many "gunsmiths" are out of compliance; that's an awfully BIG damn book they ship FFL's (with the state law version being 3x the size), and not everyone takes the time to read and understand it.

You also cross over from the ATF to US DOJ when you are modifying a firearm. The ATF controls enforcement and interpretation, while the Department of Justice covers manufacturing itself. You'd also be surprised how many manufacturers do NOT get DOJ registered and are technically out of compliance.

[Sam1911]

Form 1s and 2s are for manufacture, and registration of newly manufactured, Title II firearms. What does a Form 1 or 2 have to do with rebarreling a Title I rifle or handgun? (Nothing...)

[Sam1911]

They informed me that changing the caliber on the rifle was in effect making a new firearm and required new marks, and directed me to fill out Form 1 for permission (EDIT: this was indicated because I was a "dealer of" and not a "manufacturer of" firearms)

Further, there is no requirement for a private citizen to register, ask for permission, or notify anyone of making a brand new Title I firearm. You can take one you already have and make anything you want out of it -- as long as it doesn't become a Title II firearm.

[Trent]

Also, regarding how it may or may not be considered "Illegal" to do this - or, more bluntly, "they can't get me for this"...

By altering the firearm, you are falling within the ATF's guidelines which classify gunsmithing activity directly in line with "manufacturer of firearms", which DOES subject you to the same guidelines as a gunsmith/manufacturer, even if you are an unlicensed individual. It's the activity itself that's regulated, whether you are doing it yourself, or doing it as a business, doesn't matter at all.

The only named-exception I know of to manufacturing guidelines is ammunition manufacturing, you're allowed to make your own ammo without a license, you just can't sell it or transfer possession of ammunition you make to another person without a license. (Handing a box of reloads to a buddy, or pulling the handle on the press for them even if they supply the components to you, DOES violate federal law, believe it or not).

Section 922 covers possession, import, and sale of such weapons - whether you, as an individual, are allowed to legally possess and /or effect a sale of such weapon. In some cases those are two things - possession and selling - are quite clearly separate concepts entirely.

Simply being an individual doesn't suddenly relieve you of all of the manufacturing "stuff" that the government enforces, and they specifically mention gunsmithing as a function of a federal firearm licensee.

So yes, if they were really upset with you over something, they could push that you were acting as an unlicensed manufacturer of firearms, did not file the appropriate forms indicating the manufacturing had transpired, and charge you.

Would they? Who knows. But with 24% of weapons being untraceable because of things like this, they very well could push a ruling out that would be retroactive and put you on a very definitive wrong side of the law. Remember, ATF doesn't require an act of congress to make law, as a regulatory body, they just have to revamp their guidelines and suddenly the standing law changes in their favor. This is an inherent flaw with putting enforcement and regulation in the same department - too much power concentrated in one place.

Regardless, you MUST NOT EVER alter a serial number, even on a slide, even a little. There are minimum depth requirements now (published ATF guideline) which if you make that serial number too shallow, even on a SLIDE, it will violate the guidelines and make the weapon an illegal weapon. The minimum depth for ANY serial number marketing, the last time I checked, was 1/16". Any shallower than that, and it's bad news.

Yes, this still has to be maintained even when REFINISHING firearms, meaning, sanding and plating cannot fill in the serial # and make it "under the depth" at any point in time after that guideline was passed. I believe they revised this for manufacturer markings on barrels specifically, as T/C went to bat and said that marking a barrel to this depth could result in an unsafe firearm, so they backtracked the guidelines a little on barrels, but nothing else.

[Olympus]

Looking around at other forums, there seems to be a LOT of people removing billboards. Taurus and S&W seem to be the two most frequent ones. And there are a lot of really high end gunsmiths that offer milling off the "billboards" as a service. So one would think that if there was a possible legal ramification for performing the service, they wouldn't offer it. And I'm not talking about some badwoods gunsmith. A lot of these are reputable companies like Robar and others.

[Sam1911]

there's a whole different set of regulations when you are working on, repairing, or replacing parts.
Can you give us the cite for those other regulations? Specifically as they define who is affected by these laws?

[Sam1911]

I made a call to the ATF tech division for clarification. They informed me that changing the caliber on the rifle was in effect making a new firearm and required new marks, and directed me to fill out Form 1 for permission (EDIT: this was indicated because I was a "dealer of" and not a "manufacturer of" firearms):
I'm not really all that surprised that you got that quality of information, but I am a little.

[Sam1911]

Just for clarity, Trent, the things you are saying and the forms you've linked to are only applicable to "firearms" as defined under § 5845. That is what we call "Title II", NFA regulated firearms.

Here are those definitions:

§ 5845. Definitions For the purpose of this chapter—
(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e);
(6) a machinegun;
(7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and
(8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

None of that has anything to do with a "Title I" rifle, shotgun, or handgun.

[Sam1911]

On gunsmithing:

You said:

By altering the firearm, you are falling within the ATF's guidelines which classify gunsmithing activity directly in line with "manufacturer of firearms", which DOES subject you to the same guidelines as a gunsmith/manufacturer, even if you are an unlicensed individual. It's the activity itself that's regulated, whether you are doing it yourself, or doing it as a business, doesn't matter at all.


But the ATF doesn't seem to agree with you...

Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]


Emphasis mine.

[Trent]

You can alter firearms for yourself, but unfortunately they hold any subsequent sale of weapons to be "manufacturing". You *could* in theory get around this by transferring through an FFL. This includes modifying things such as AR-15's, etc.

Emphasis mine:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for his personal use, not for sale or distribution. The individual is not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.


I called the ATF this year for clarification on this; as they had tightened up definitions of manufacturers in 2008. My question was along these lines:

I've got 40 AR-15 receivers and 16 barrels left in my basement from when I closed my gun shop; I plan to assemble rifles off of these these receivers (mixed Stag arms and Rock River). These were on my final bound books showing transferred to my person at the time of my gunshop closing, and considered firearms because they are the registered part. If I assemble rifles and sell them to private individuals, even though the receivers are already firearms, and shown transferred to me on my final bound books, am I in violation?

The answer I received was YES. Modifying or altering a firearm - AT ALL - and then subsequently selling to another individual without a license to deal in firearms, is in violation of federal law. I could A) pay an Excise tax and file the appropriate form showing the new configuration, or B) effect the transfer through a federal firearm licensee, or C) sell the weapons (receivers) unaltered.

I also then asked if I could build an AR15 FOR someone, off of a transferred receiver, and was told NO, I cannot do so as doing so is acting as a gunsmith, which requires (depending on the case) either a dealer or manufacturer's license.

Basically, it sums up like this : If you alter, assemble, or modify a firearm - even simply swapping out the trigger - and then sell the firearm to an individual - you could be construed as a dealer or manufacturer, depending on what alterations, specifically, are made. Some alterations "only" require a dealer FFL (repairs, etc), while other alterations require a manufacturer's license.

Refinishing or even repainting a weapon require a manufacturer's license.

Doing it for yourself appears to be acceptable, so long as you do NOT resell the weapon to someone else.

The argument of whether altering a firearm by removing manufacturer marks is against the law has yet (to my knowledge) to be tested in Federal Court. The most (I think) that they could pin on you is violation of Federal Excise Tax, as removing markings is the same as MAKING the markings, meaning, you are acting as a manufacturer of firearms by removing or altering the weapon, effecting the removal of the markings.

HOWEVER: Removal of ANY manufacturer markings is specifically named, and a felony, in a number of states. So tread with caution. :)

Here's a browsable compilation of the 29th edition of state laws, if you want to look up your state (look on the right of the page for a state by state breakdown):

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/state-laws/29th-edition/

And, as always, it's best if YOU YOURSELF call the ATF and ask whether what you are doing is against federal law..... they have a vast amount of guidelines, rulings, and so on that would take a long time to search through to find, and even IF you find them, they may have a totally different "intent" than what YOU read in to it.

So, my final say is to send a letter of intent and see what the letter you get back says about it. At least, then, you have a piece of paper from the ATF saying the alterations are fine, if your local police ever bust you on it.

[Sam1911]

Doing it for yourself appears to be acceptable, so long as you do NOT resell the weapon to someone else.


And yet, it is perfectly legal to build a weapon from scratch for your own use (no serial numbers or maker's mark needed) and also perfectly legal to sell that weapon to someone else later as long as you add a serial number to the BATFE's specs and engrave your name and locaion.

[Trent]

Sam1911;

I'm also not of the position that the ATF doesn't sometimes give conflicting advice, or flat out incorrect advice. Take the final disposition of my inventory, for one thing. When putting together my records I asked for an audit of my final bound books before I sent everything off to the ATF (brave soul I was), and asked for clarification on whether I had to wait 12 months before selling anything as an individual. If you transfer weapons from the FFL bound book inventory to your "personal" collection you must wait 12 months before selling them as an individual.

The local ATF office said no, I could NOT sell the weapons for 12 months. I had to wait 12 months before I could sell any of them because they were on the bound books. I then called the ATF main office, and (after a long period of time) received a return phone call that YES, I COULD sell the weapons at any time because I was no longer an FFL, and no longer subject to the FFL guidelines stipulating the 12-month waiting period on weapons transferred to personal inventory.

(The 12 month rule is in place because they don't want FFL's moving guns to a private collection and then selling them to bypass 4473/background checks).

So, take my argument for what it's worth. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just saying that when you modify the marks on a weapon that are specifically made "so as not to be readily obliterated", you are walking on some mighty thin ice over murky water.

By removing manufacturer marks you are making the weapon untraceable. I could easily see this interpreted against the owner if it ever went to court. The reason for this was already mentioned - the ATF cannot trace off of serial # alone.

From a morality standpoint, if not a legal one, this one brings my short hairs up, because if the weapons ever were stolen they can't effectively track where they came from. The anti-gun lobby already throws the high obliteration record in the air all the time, as nearly 1/4 of weapons recovered from crime scenes have altered or obliterated serial numbers. I personally see no need to feed them more ammunition, as it were.

Another point is if your weapon is ever stolen, chances are very slim that you'll EVER get the weapon returned to you without having the trio of make/model/serial number. If it can't be traced, it can't be returned to the rightful owner.

I can also see the removal of make & model, and the subsequent tracing problems it causes, being used against us by the anti-gunners - especially if a large number of shops are now offering milling services.

[Trent]

And yet, it is perfectly legal to build a weapon from scratch for your own use (no serial numbers or maker's mark needed) and also perfectly legal to sell that weapon to someone else later as long as you add a serial number to the BATFE's specs and engrave your name and locaion.

You forgot to add two things prior to sale: #1, sending the manufacture form in to the ATF, and #2, paying an excise tax. You also need to have a manufacturer's FFL before selling ANY weapon you have manufactured.

Another option is to transfer the weapon to a manufacturer and have THEIR marks added to the weapon, and file a "request for marking variance" with the ATF. In this capacity you served as a subcontractor that assembled the weapon, while they serve as the "manufactuter" of the weapon for marking purposes.

If you don't do those before the resale, unfortunately, it's an illegal weapon and transaction.

[Sam1911]

I had to go through this previously as an FFL, for when rebarreling rifles to a new caliber. I was unclear at the time, so I made a call to the ATF tech division for clarification. They informed me that changing the caliber on the rifle was in effect making a new firearm and required new marks, and directed me to fill out Form 1 for permission (EDIT: this was indicated because I was a "dealer of" and not a "manufacturer of" firearms):

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf

And when completed, to submit Form 2 to identify the new markings on the weapon:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-2.pdf


I just have to know... when you did this -- what happened? Did they actually return the Form 1 with a cancelled tax stamp? Thus putting a Title I rifle into the Title II registry? Surely that would have sent up a few red flags along the way...

[Sam1911]

#1, sending the manufacture form in to the ATF,
WHAT manufacture form? There isn't one for TITLE 1 firearms. Again, the form you've been linking to (5320.1) is for the registration of a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or other NFA-regulated "Title II" weapon. NOT for a regular bolt-action, semi, single-shot, etc. rifle, shotgun, or pistol.

Even the big manufacturers do not REGISTER the Title I guns they make with the government. Form 5320.2 is for a SOT2 manufacturer of Title II weapons to register those. Nothing to do with pistols, shotguns, and rifles that don't fall into the "Title II" categories.

You also need to have a manufacturer's FFL before selling ANY weapon you have manufactured. Not correct. Show me.

This is a line quoted from one letter the ATF sent on that subject (Posted an AKfiles):
Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92).

[Trent]

I just have to know... when you did this -- what happened? Did they actually return the Form 1 with a cancelled tax stamp? Thus putting a Title I rifle into the Title II registry? Surely that would have sent up a few red flags along the way...

Found my notes. This is where they pointed me to as the BARREL of the rifle I was working on had the manufacturer's name, location, and caliber on it, and I was replacing the barrel:

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-5.pdf

My first thought was as a dealer, I could *not* alter the firearm to remove the markings; I thought only manufacturer's could. But they informed me that I could do the barrel swap as a dealer as a repair, since dealers are licensed gunsmiths (barrel was shot out), so long as the part was drop-in, and I filled in the manufacturing form.

I linked to the wrong form earlier. I had to fill in the year-end form showing I'd "made" one rifle:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5300-11.pdf

The other form is - as you correctly pointed out - for manufacturing an NFA weapon.

[waterhouse]

I had to go through this previously as an FFL, for when rebarreling rifles to a new caliber. I was unclear at the time, so I made a call to the ATF tech division for clarification. They informed me that changing the caliber on the rifle was in effect making a new firearm and required new marks, and directed me to fill out Form 1 for permission (EDIT: this was indicated because I was a "dealer of" and not a "manufacturer of" firearms):

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf


Did you actually go through this process? When you rebarreled the gun in a new caliber, and you filled out the form 1, did you pay the $200 tax?

ETA: sorry, see this is asked and answered, my fault for not getting all the way through the thread.

[Trent]

This is a line quoted from one letter the ATF sent on that subject (Posted an AKfiles):

Well damn, that's nice to know now. I was told by the regional ATF office in Chicago I couldn't build up the kits I have, on new receivers, and sell them.

[Sam1911]

I linked to the wrong form earlier. I had to fill in the year-end form showing I'd "made" one rifle:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5300-11.pdf


So as a licensee you had to show that you made one rifle. Not identify that rifle or list any markings on that rifle.

[Trent]

Did you actually go through this process? When you rebarreled the gun in a new caliber, and you filled out the form 1, did you pay the $200 tax?

I didn't have to pay the tax, but I was told I had to submit a signed Form 1 to identify the alterations I was making. It really doesn't make any sense. At the time I assumed they wanted something on file to show I wasn't creating an SBR when doing the rebarreling (which I wasn't, it was a 24" barrel...).

What it is feeling like (in retrospect), is that the regional ATF office didn't know for sure themselves, and erred on the side of caution.

[Sam1911]

Well damn, that's nice to know now. I was told by the regional ATF office in Chicago I couldn't build up the kits I have, on new receivers, and sell them.

There is a difference.

Scenario 1: You have a firearm. It is yours, purchased or built for your own use. You tinker with it, alter it, "build" it from a kit, whatever.

Independent of those activities, you (at some later point, lets say) decide you want to sell it. That's fine and it is your right to do so.

Scenario 2: You have lotsa firearms receivers. You want to build them into complete rifles and sell them off. The ATF doesn't see that as you selling part of your personal collection, but rather you doing gunsmithing work and selling the product. In other words, "in the business of."

There are grey areas, but you're pretty far over the line into gunsmithing/manufacturing when you are assembling piles of receivers into complete guns and selling them off.

That's why they said no.

[Trent]

So as a licensee you had to show that you made one rifle. Not identify that rifle or list any markings on that rifle.

After digging out my box o' papers, this is correct. The local office did tell me send in a Form 1, I still have a copy of that. But with my final bound books that were sent to the ATF, there was one end of year report for 2009. I didn't have to be licensed (or report) as a manufacturer on any of the AR-15's I built, although they said I had to be licensed as a dealer to assemble them and resell them.

[Trent]

There is a difference.

Scenario 1: You have a firearm. It is yours, purchased or built for your own use. You tinker with it, alter it, "build" it from a kit, whatever.

You decide you want to sell it. That's fine and it is your right to do so.

Scenario 2: You have lotsa firearms receivers. You want to build them into complete rifles and sell them off. The ATF doesn't see that as you selling part of your personal collection, but rather you doing gunsmithing work and selling the product. In other words, "in the business of."

There are grey areas, but you're pretty far over the line into gunsmithing/manufacturing when you are assembling piles of receivers into complete guns and selling them off.

That's why they said no.

Yes, I totally agree with this. I may be applying this same logic to everything, incorrectly, but they don't say "how many" anywhere I can find. I can do one, yes.. but two? Three?? There's no definition anywhere I can find.

The problem of what to do with my AR's is (and should remain) totally separate from a standpoint of this conversation. My apologies. :)

[Trent]

So the summary after the discussion (if I'm understanding everything right)...

1. It is not - to the letter - against Federal law to remove make and model, until such time as the ATF makes a ruling on it that makes the act of doing this an explicit act of manufacture. Unless you're "in the business of" doing such alterations.

2. In some states, it is illegal to possess an altered weapon (including removing or swapping out the parts which contain impressions of the make & model).

3. It would be against the law to transport through or possess such weapons in the states where they are illegal, as a non resident.

This correct?

Still feels like a pretty cloudy area, all things considered. Most people don't get ATF newsletters, and I can see it causing problems down the road if they ever tighten up the guidelines.

[Sam1911]

There's no definition anywhere I can find.
Well there's the rub, isn't there? The ATF has never -- and probably WILL never -- give a concrete answer. Same as when you ask, if I buy firearms and ... occasionally ... sell them at gun shows or to friends, how many can I sell before I'm considered an unlicensed dealer?

You'll never have a number you can hang your hat on.

[Trent]

I totally agree, they never do really put anything important in concrete terms. It gives them the lee-way they need to press a case or form opinions at a later time. Typical Government mindset. I'm still of the opinion that removing make & model is some thin-ice territory, because in the future the ATF (or your state) may drop the hammer on it altogether and leave a lot of otherwise law-abiding citizens on the wrong side of the fence, simply over cosmetics.

To me, having a billboard on the side of my gun doesn't bother me, as I like some REALLY ugly guns just as much as I do some really pretty ones. That, and it's not at all outside the realm of possibility for someone to unexpectedly be "declared" in possession of an illegal firearm if they ever put a ruling down.

With the structure of the ATF, their capability as a regulating and enforcement body to "make law" out of thin air, and their past track record of doing exactly that (Street sweepers, early Mac 10's, etc), I personally will avoid doing this, even though I live in a state where it's not specifically against the law. If I'm more paranoid than most, so be it. :)

The bottom line is this; I joined TheHighRoad.org because I wanted to learn more, and learn I have. Wish I would have found this place a few years ago, when I had my FFL, life might have been a little less nerve-wracking.

And, thanks for putting up with me while I was debating with you all morning, Sam. :)

[jimmyraythomason]

thanks for putting up with me while I was debating with you all morning, Sam. Now that's High Road.

[Trent]

It's good practice to always thank someone who takes the time to teach you something.

[Sam1911]

It's good practice to always thank someone who takes the time to teach you something.
I appreciate your forbearance as well as I work my own way through those issues. I'm not lawyer and I don't even play one on TV. But I do think we owe everyone who might read these threads the most well-investigated and firmly-grounded answers we can discover.

I'm still blown away to find out that some states do regulate some of these less-well-known issues so much more strictly than the feds. I'm sure many 10s of thousands of folks break a lot of these laws without ever having even an inkling that they're not following the laws.

Scary!

[DasFriek]

dewalt-2:
DasFriek, you forgot about me. We've exchanged comments before on forums. You have the second most expensive PT1911 on the planet, but only because I put an Ed Brown match barrel in mine...

Well i was going for the most expensive, So second place is fine with me.
The refinisher got a long email from me today about how my guns over 3 weeks over due on estimated turn around time. Its been gone 7 weeks and im really missing it.

Its always fun to own and shoot a one of a kind gun.

[Trent]

I appreciate your forbearance as well as I work my own way through those issues. I'm not lawyer and I don't even play one on TV. But I do think we owe everyone who might read these threads the most well-investigated and firmly-grounded answers we can discover.

I'm still blown away to find out that some states do regulate some of these less-well-known issues so much more strictly than the feds. I'm sure many 10s of thousands of folks break a lot of these laws without ever having even an inkling that they're not following the laws.

Scary!

Same here. I had a dealer FFL, and to be honest the complexity of the manufacturing laws was overwhelming. I had strongly considered getting a manufacturer FFL when I moved out to the country, for doing gunsmith work. I even still have the FFL package with fingerprint cards sitting here in a folder from 2 years ago, blank.

I went through the "big books" trying to learn what I could, even going back through ATF rulings and publications, but I couldn't wrap my brain around everything. To be honest, I have neither the time nor inclination to learn and comprehend the staggering amount of laws, guidelines, and rules - between the commerce end, the ATF side, and the DOJ that actually handles the manufacturing end, it's just too much for a guy with 5 kids and a full time day job to keep up with.

To top it off, all of the ATF guidelines end with some vague thing for violations such as "will be brought in to compliance", or "will be forced in to compliance", which could mean anything from seizing all tooling and firearms at the premises, to incarceration, depending on the mood of the field agent. I've heard enough horror stories about FFL's having entire inventories seized. My collection is my retirement fund, I can't put it on the line.

The inconsistency the ATF was also abysmally nerve-wracking. I was told at the time I got my FFL that I'd have - at minimum - annual audits, and possibly more. The years started ticking by and I NEVER had an audit. When I decided to close up my shop I was paranoid about "what if's" on the paperwork. So, 6 months before my FFL was set to lapse, I called the closest satellite office, left a message on the machine (it's not staffed evidently), and ASKED for an audit so I could sleep well at night knowing I'd done everything right the last 2 1/2 years.

Three months passed, no one ever showed up. So I called in to the Chicago regional office and requested - from a person this time - an on-site audit. Nothing. Three more months passed, my FFL expired, and I still hadn't heard anything. So I went through every single 4473 and bound book entry with a fine tooth comb, making sure I had all the FFL's on file from transfers, letters of certification, etc. Took the better part of three days. Then I boxed it all up and shipped it off.

Been over a year now and I haven't heard anything from them, so I must have done everything OK.

In the three years I had my FFL, I never once received an audit. The only times I actually talked face to face with an ATF agent was when they did the original premises walk, and when they dropped off the material to me. When I'd call in with questions, normally it took several calls and two to four weeks to get an answer. The ONLY time they were prompt was once when I submitted a multiple handgun acquisition report. They called the very next week on that for more information. (Cop bought two guns in one night, had a certification letter).

I say all of this because it seems very much that the ATF just throws the book at you and expects you to comply, without offering any real support for questions that may come up. If you can't follow the book and understand it on your own, you face very real legal risk.

States are the same - YOU are responsible for going out and understanding the laws. On top of your normal life, responsibilities, etc, YOU are expected to be legally competent enough that you can read through and understand all of the firearms law AND case law. The statutes on the books are certainly NOT enough, unless you also review all of the case law that applies to your jurisdiction, because case law is where the statutes REALLY get defined. That, on it's own, is an overwhelming prospect.

Even our cops don't understand it sufficiently and often err on the side of caution. I have three friends who have been arrested for Unlawful Use of Weapon here in Illinois, each of them for having an unloaded weapon in the vehicle. The cops in these cases assumed that it was immediately accessible if it's in the same compartment, or that a loaded magazine constitutes a loaded weapon (even if it's not IN the weapon). Each case was dismissed, but in two cases, not until after the obligatory "weekend in jail".

By Illinois Law I could pull the slide off a handgun and stuff it in my console, and it's no longer considered a firearm under IL law. But the cops will certainly arrest me for it, despite it being disassembled and clearly "not a firearm" by IL statute. There's a LOT of cases like this. They arrest whenever they feel there MIGHT be a case, and let the state's attorney sort it out later.

Anyway I'm not overly paranoid - I'm merely cautious for good reason and through experience. Hence my attitude in this thread. When it comes to firearms laws, the penalties are typically unbalanced and severe, so I walk the side of caution.

[highorder]

I read every word of this thread, as I always do when the law is explored and I have come to my usual conclusion:

All this machinery and bureaucracy prevents crime. ;)

[Trent]

Highorder... That made me chuckle. :)

[InkEd]

Everything we own nowadays has a visible logo on it. Your TV, car, (probably) clothing, computer, phone, tools, etc. Why the heck can't gun guys "just get over it" and move on.

If you don't want a logo buy one without it.

[CraigC]

Do we really entertain the possibility that someone would be prosecuted for removing anything from a firearm but the serial number???


If you don't want a logo buy one without it.
Some of us are more picky about our guns than we are our televisions. Nobody loves on their TV's like we do our guns. We have been removing Ruger's warning labels from barrels for years because it was an ugly eyesore on an otherwise excellent gun and it makes us happy to correct it. This is no different.

And for the record, I removed 100lbs of unnecessary plastic garbage from my truck, including the fender flares, "4x4" stickers, badging, dealer sticker, etc. All for the same reason.

[jimmyraythomason]

Do we really entertain the possibility that someone would be prosecuted for removing anything from a firearm but the serial number??? Nevertheless,these laws are still on the books in many states. A state's lack of enforcement of it's own laws makes it no less illegal. Each person has to decide for themselves how much risk they are willing to take.

[Rail Driver]

Now this is only my opinion, but the way I see it, if you want to remove the "billboard" from your gun's slide, go for it. A gun is a personal thing, and if my gun isn't what I want or how I want it, I'm going to change the gun to fit what I want. I plan on having the Rock Island Armory billboard removed from my slide when I send my gun in to be refinished.

[Trent]

Do we really entertain the possibility that someone would be prosecuted for removing anything from a firearm but the serial number???


Yes, that's exactly what we're entertaining.

To summarize what I found in my research;

The ATF published a release in August 2008 tightened up the manufacturing guidelines for imprinting the make, model, caliber, and serial #. They cited this was done in an effort to improve traceability, which requires all four markings intact to perform. The ruling they made was to increase the impression depth required for ALL of those "billboards" to make them less likely to be "obliterated".

On the consumer end;

To the best I have been able to tell, they did not change anything regarding your ability to remove them as a consumer. What you do in your garage is your business, so long as you don't violate your own state laws or Section 922.

On the gunsmithing end;

Gunsmithing activities involving altering a weapon (anything other than drop-in replacement parts), must be done via FFL, and the gunsmith has to be classified as a "manufacturer". This becomes an activity which must comply with ATF rulings. If I ran a shop performing billboard milling, I'd take a long hard look at what they published back in '08 to make sure the work was being done in compliance.

Shipping a milled slide, sans-firearm, across state lines to a state that prohibits it (probably) isn't violating any laws, but shipping an entire pistol would be. If you milled a slide for someone in a state where it's prohibited, and shipped the pistol back to the customer, you could be charged with a violation in the destination state.

Shipping a slab-sided slide which can be fitted to a weapon in a state that disallows removal or modification of required markings is (probably) not in violation, but it would become a violation if a consumer mounted it to a weapon, thereby removing required markings. Guilt by "construed possession" could also be possible depending on the state law.

Travelling with a modified weapon through a state which disallows the removal of required markings *could* be in violation, but it can probably be fought. Most of the laws I looked up involved the *act* of removing the markings, which - in the case of travelling - wasn't done in that state in the first place. Some, however, involve simply possessing an altered weapon, those states it would be a violation to have an altered weapon.

As far as "being prosecuted for"... that's entirely up to the law enforcement officer that stops you, and the states attorney that reviews any charges. As I mentioned previously I have had several friends arrested for "non-crimes" of unlawful possession of a firearm even though they WERE in lawful possession.

I also had one friend who owned a $4800 fake silencer can (just a show piece, without baffles or noise reduction). Of course, the can didn't cost $4800 when he bought it. We arrived at that value after he was pulled over in Pontiac, IL, and arrested for violation of IL's ban on silencers. The states attorney went through with the charges, he was arraigned. After it was all said and done, we figured the fake can cost $4800, due to my friend's lawyers fees and missed work while fighting the charges, as the case went to jury trial. He had to PROVE that the can offered no sound reduction capability when affixed to a firearm. Not easy to do in the court room. Fortunately the manufacturer (who was probably horrified), offered documentation from testing which was submitted to the court, and the case was dismissed.

I'm not advocating the issue either way, I was just curious, and a bit unnerved, because I remember seeing that ATF publication back in 2008 when I still had my FFL. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not offering any legal advice, all I've attempted here is try to make some sense of all of the obscure rulings and laws that might affect it.

Anyway, everyone has to make up their own minds. :)

[CraigC]

It's an interesting theory but I really don't think it has any basis in reality. Seems like unsubstantiated fear to me.

[Trent]

CraigC, it quite possibly is. I've been accused of being a bit on the paranoid side, and you just gave the textbook definition of paranoia. Whatever helps me live a long and uneventful life... :)

[aryfrosty]

All the talk of Alabama laws is putting me on edge. I am a retired cop and have had a CCW since I retired in New Hampshire. The wife and I are getting ready to move to Huntsville, Al to be closer to family and I have read enough about Alabama's gun laws to know I ain't sure I'll be happy there. These ridiculous and antiquated laws make me wish there could be one set of rules for every state. ( I know, dream on).:banghead:

[jimmyraythomason]

These ridiculous and antiquated laws make me wish there could be one set of rules for every state. ( I know, dream on). If that one set of rules was the Bill of Rights,I would agree completely.

[IBEWBULL]

Am I wrong or is a completed semi auto reciever registered and require an FFL to transfer.
So therefore it is transfered as a weapon, all the forms are filled out at time of purchase.
The frame being the only part which is considered a firearm.
The bbl stock bolt etc can be ordered just like any other non firearm.
Changing the parts around and customizing it will not change the fact that the reciever is registered.
Selling it should be no different than selling any other legally owned semi auto.
The rub comes when you are engaging in the business which can be defined in many ways. If you are in doubt I suggest selling on consignment through a dealer.
If you are completing unfinished recievers or partially completed ones better check out exactly what the law is. I think it goes by percentage of completness.
Above all do not take information on line as legal advise.

[Trent]

IBEWBULL;

Yes, a completed receiver requires is the marked part. Sale from the manufacturer to dealer is done, then dealer sells on a 4473. The receiver must be marked as required (make/model/caliber/serial #)

If you buy just a frame, for a handgun, by ATF decree, the frame or receiver must have all of the required markings. Then whatever parts you add can be "blank".

If you buy a complete weapon, the manufacturer has the OPTION of putting some of the markings on the slide or barrel, as long as the serial # remains on the frame.

Some manufacturers decided to use a disproportionately large amount of available surface area real estate for their "make" marking.

In some states it's illegal to alter a weapon to eliminate the "make" and "model" markings, and it doesn't matter if they are on the receiver or frame. A drop in blank-part is no different than grinding it off, as it's still altering the weapon and removing those markings.

As usual, the "law" is subject to the whim of various governing bodies, and some (ATF) don't have to ask permission of the population to institute the changes, NOR are they under ANY requirement or obligation to inform the population that they are now, in effect, criminals.

Look at Street Sweepers. Perfectly legal to buy, and own that 12 gauge, right up until the ATF declared them non-sporting and classified them as destructive device. People had the option of registering them (where allowed by state law). But there was no mandatory publication to the population, nor any warning to some people that failure to do so would put them in violation of the NFA.

At any point between now and the time that agency is no longer judge, jury, and executioner all rolled in to one, they could change their minds on a dime and rule that any modification to make/model/caliber OR serial# constitutes an obliterated weapon, making a large amount of people who have improved the cosmetics of their weapons (by removal of the advertising logos) de-facto criminals.

It is a fact, that the current ATF training documents for police agencies instructs them to watch for any weapons lacking ANY of the required markings (Make/Model/Caliber/Serial #). I linked to that law enforcement training brochure in a previous post.

That's the real issue. The stage is already set, it's just waiting on ... that whim.

[CraigC]

A drop in blank-part is no different than grinding it off, as it's still altering the weapon and removing those markings.
I would still like to see more actual, factual evidence that this is actually true. Because if it is, then installing a .22LR conversion unit onto a 1911 frame would be against the law.


The receiver must be marked as required (make/model/caliber/serial #)
I have three 1911's and none of them are marked beyond manufacturer and serial number. No model numbers or chamberings on any of them.

[jimmyraythomason]

I have three 1911's and none of them are marked beyond manufacturer and serial number. No model numbers or chamberings on any of them. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of firearms out there that would be against some law somewhere. All laws governing firearms modifications aren't at the federal level and are often quite obscure. What I have been saying and want to stress is,if a person is going to do ANY modification to a firearm (I do a lot!) they would do well to check their state and local laws as well as the federal statutes. Since THR will not advocate any illegal activity,I thought it prudent to bring up the subject.

[CraigC]

I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of firearms out there that would be against some law somewhere.
Again, without some real proof that it even IS against the law in some states, I will file this under paranoid, unsubstantiated fear. Since there are some of us who actually have had gunsmiths remove unsightly lettering from our guns as well as caliber conversions and custom barrel installations, I think the burden of proof is on Chicken Little.

[jimmyraythomason]

Alabama Laws;Section 13A-11-64 - Alteration, etc., of manufacturer's number, etc., of firearm; possession, etc., of firearm after identification altered.
A person who either:

(1) Changes, alters, removes, or obliterates the name of the maker, model, manufacturer's number or other mark or identification of any firearm, or

(2) Possesses, obtains, receives, sells, or uses a firearm after the maker, model, manufacturer's number or other mark or identification has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated, is guilty of a Class C felony.

(Acts 1982, No. 82-430, §3.)
For Alabama's definition of Firearm see post #27.

[CraigC]

I've read the thread, as I said, there has not been enough viable information posted in this thread to make me believe the fear is justified. By what's been posted here, I could not buy a desktop replica cannon and remove any lettering from it. Nor could I draw file the ugly stamping off a muzzleloader barrel and refinish it. If anyone can find a single instance where someone who was prosecuted or fined for removing anything but a serial number off a firearm, I'll gladly eat my hat. IMHO, this is nothing more than armchair lawyer nonsense.

[jimmyraythomason]

this is nothing more than armchair lawyer nonsense. The fact remains,the laws are there. Lack of enforcement may the norm. Ignore the laws if you wish but don't be ignorant of their existence. In this day of computers and rapid access to information,there is no reason not to know your own state's laws.