.40 S&W 165 gr. vs 180 gr.


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GunNut1976
December 12, 2010, 11:46 PM
I've decided on federal hst's for my personal defense load. curious whether I should go with 180 grains or 165's or even 155's for that matter. shooting out of a glock 23. I know we're really splitting hairs here but I'd like to know what you guys think. It seems like when you use lighter bullets in any given caliber you get better expansion and maybe less penetration. Guessing this is do to the difference in the sectional density and velocity. But then sometimes you get bullets of the same weight that when they go faster they don't necessarily expand more but they seem to penetrate significantly deeper. ie. 38 and .357. So I guess a 2 part question. What's the relationship between weight, velocity, caliber, sectional density, penetration, and expansion. An whats going to be the best weight for the load I'm looking at. I'm guessing no one has a real good answer for the first part but I liked to see some discussion.

Thanks Guy

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Narwhal
December 13, 2010, 05:55 AM
180gr

In the HST line at least, it's the best performer according to the tests I've read, such as the Dr. Roberts ammo faq. You really can't draw any absolute conclusions based on bullet weight because the manufacturers vary their hollow point design based on the anticipated velocity of the bullet. The 180gr bullet in the HST line offers the best combination of penetration with consistent expansion (and performance through barriers).

TX expat
December 13, 2010, 11:35 AM
I carry Federal HST's in my XD subcompact and my personal opinion on the bullet weight issue is this. Get some of both and shoot 'em in your gun. Velocity, expansion and all the ballistic data in the world matters not if one works better with your firearm than the other. If you get good accuracy and performance at various distances with both, then pick expansion data apart.

Honestly I would carry either one and be happy, I think both preform very well and would do the intended job if needed. For me, the 180 gr. allows for faster follow up shots, so that is what I usually carry, but on a few occasions I haven't been able to get the larger bullet and I've picked up the 165 gr. with no hesitation.

griff383
December 13, 2010, 11:40 AM
punk rocka is right, see what works best in your gun and what you can shoot the most comfortably/accurate.

My brother in law, who is a sheirffs deputy, did tell me that he had a long conversation with a very knowledgeable person on this subject and he recommended that his department use 180gr bullets. The theory, IIRC, is that the bullet loses less energy when penetrating objects.

Creature
December 13, 2010, 12:01 PM
Concur with 180gr HST's. Good penetration and expansion. A bit easier to shot as well from my Glock 22.

papa_bear
December 13, 2010, 12:37 PM
either one. there will not be a difference as far as tissue is concerned. penetration difference will be completely negligible. even if bone is hit there will not be a major difference. anyone who tells you different is splitting c-hairs and spends to much time of the net. the 180 will be a little less snappy.the 165 will have a little less muzzle rise. the end result will be the same.

A.H. Fox
December 13, 2010, 12:41 PM
180 gr....Speer Gold Dots....works when ya need them.

Erik
December 13, 2010, 03:40 PM
I prefer the 180 grain HST for the reasons cited.

GunNut1976
December 13, 2010, 10:06 PM
So I guess I'm curious why do they make these different weights if the result is the same there has to be some difference in performance. Don't you generally get more rapid expansion with a faster bullet and greater expansion with a bullet that has greater sectional density?

TX expat
December 13, 2010, 11:13 PM
There are performance differences but if you're looking for the "right" choice, you have to realize there isn't one. It mostly boils down to personal preference or buying habit. Bullet weight wars have been going on about as long as caliber wars and nobody's won yet!

I'm certainly not trying to take your question lightly but I think you are over thinking it. There isn't a best choice. If there was, you wouldn't see so many options on the market. Look at it this way, nobody has unified all of law enforcement on one caliber, much less a single bullet weight, so there isn't going to be a clear cut best answer.

Just remember to do some practice with what you carry, even if it's just a few shots at every range session.

Shawn Dodson
December 14, 2010, 12:27 PM
See - http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

In-service performance usually falls between the "Bare Gelatin" and "IWBA Heavy Clothing" test results.

Rexster
December 14, 2010, 04:39 PM
Which weight shoots best to point of aim in YOUR individual gun? I now use 180-grain Gold Dots in my duty/carry SIGs because anything lighter shoots noticeably low when the distance opens up a bit. It is fairly common knowledge that SIG factory sights, on their .40 guns, are registered for 180-grain ammo.

Shot placement trumps such minor variations as bullet weight and the resulting slight differences in terminal ballistics.

When I used G22 for duty/carry, 165-grain duty-type ammo seemed most available at a particular local dealer at the time, and shot to point of aim, so I used it.

If one is only concerned about gunfights at very short distance, use whatever is the flavor of the day. My personal standard is that I may have to defend a third party, or even perhaps myself, by shooting across a stretch of parking lot.

GunNut1976
December 14, 2010, 08:26 PM
so I get it that theres no "best bullet" I'm just wondering what the differences are between the two are they going to penetrate differently, are they going to expand differently, is the recoil different?

GunNut1976
December 14, 2010, 08:29 PM
See - http://le.atk.com/pdf/HSTInsertPoster.pdf

In-service performance usually falls between the "Bare Gelatin" and "IWBA Heavy Clothing" test results.
hey this link is way cool!

REAPER4206969
December 14, 2010, 08:40 PM
180gr.

CDawg
December 14, 2010, 08:43 PM
Shoot a good JHP in a weight that is accurate in your weapon and has recoil that you are comfortable with. My carry weapon is the S&W 4013 loaded with 155gr Hydra Shok. If I were in law enforcement, I would probably employ a 180gr round for barrier penetration (windshields and such). I currently don't anticipate a defensive situation that would justify shooting through windshields, but if that were to change I'd use the heavier round. I would recommend that you choose a good JHP based on reliability, accuracy and recoil, in that order and then practice as often as possible.

stinger 327
December 15, 2010, 03:09 AM
How about the Corbon Power Ball .40 cal. 135 grains at 1325 fps and over 500 lbs. of energy?
Another one is Hornady Critical Defense?

REAPER4206969
December 15, 2010, 04:16 AM
Both are insufficient for serious use.

golden
December 16, 2010, 12:49 AM
My agency has been using the 155 grain jhp for about 12 years before we went to the 135 grain jhp. I would stick with the lighter bullet like the 165 grain as you have a real chance of expansion which is lessened with the slower bullet.

If you are going to use a 180 grain bullet, why not just use a .45ACP with the 185 grain jhp.

Jim

stinger 327
December 16, 2010, 01:30 AM
My agency has been using the 155 grain jhp for about 12 years before we went to the 135 grain jhp. I would stick with the lighter bullet like the 165 grain as you have a real chance of expansion which is lessened with the slower bullet.

If you are going to use a 180 grain bullet, why not just use a .45ACP with the 185 grain jhp.

Jim
Corbon Powerball in .40 cal uses a 135 grain that travels at 1325? fps with close to 500 lbs. of ME.

stinger 327
December 16, 2010, 01:32 AM
Then again I hear if you use a short barrel gun go with the lighter faster loads.
If you want penetration and for SD go with the heaviest loads like 180.

sxcamaro05
December 16, 2010, 04:16 AM
Hell 180 and 165 I've seen some 135 gr Federal JHP that I want to try. Firm believer in shooting the ammo you plan to carry before blindly settling upon a brand.

Shawn Dodson
December 16, 2010, 12:11 PM
If you are going to use a 180 grain bullet, why not just use a .45ACP with the 185 grain jhp. 180gr is to .40 S&W is what 230gr is to .45 ACP. Both have an identical sectional density of .161.

Whereas 185gr .45 ACP has a sectional density of .130 which is identical to 9mm 115gr and .40 S&W 155gr.

135gr .40 S&W has a sectional density of .121.

Sectional density of lead core JHP bullets is an important factor of penetration. Generally the greater the sectional density the greater the penetration potential.

stinger 327
December 16, 2010, 02:56 PM
180gr is to .40 S&W is what 230gr is to .45 ACP. Both have an identical sectional density of .161.

Whereas 185gr .45 ACP has a sectional density of .130 which is identical to 9mm 115gr and .40 S&W 155gr.

135gr .40 S&W has a sectional density of .121.

Sectional density of lead core JHP bullets is an important factor of penetration. Generally the greater the sectional density the greater the penetration potential.

The Hornady Critical Defense in .40 cal. 165 grain is 1,175 fps.
.45 ACP 185 grain is 1,100 fps

Corbon Powerball in .40 cal 135 grain is 1,325 fps
+P.45 ACP 165 grain is 1,225 fps

I know there are alot more choices out there but I hear these are the top brands.
Decisions Decisions:confused:

Shawn Dodson
December 16, 2010, 04:12 PM
I hear these are the top brands. I don't recommend either.

Federal HST not only outperforms them both but provides greater self-defense capability as well. In addition HST can be purchased in 50 round boxes for less than $30.

If you desire a cartridge with higher velocity and more energy, then I suggest CorBon DPX or Black Hills TAC-XP, both of which are loaded with the Barnes solid copper TAC-XP bullet.

Ammunition that doesn't feed or cycle the slide reliably will be quickly apparent. I'd feel confident after shooting 3 full magazine loads through the pistol with no stoppages.

stinger 327
December 16, 2010, 05:15 PM
I don't recommend either.

Federal HST not only outperforms them both but provides greater self-defense capability as well. In addition HST can be purchased in 50 round boxes for less than $30.

If you desire a cartridge with higher velocity and more energy, then I suggest CorBon DPX or Black Hills TAC-XP, both of which are loaded with the Barnes solid copper TAC-XP bullet.

Ammunition that doesn't feed or cycle the slide reliably will be quickly apparent. I'd feel confident after shooting 3 full magazine loads through the pistol with no stoppages.
Thanks for that info. I'm glad finally one can get good ammo in 50 round boxes again. These 20 rounders are overpriced somehow it must have become a trend for 20 round boxes for personal protection or SD loads.
I have not heard any info on Federal HST. What does HST mean?

Shawn Dodson
December 16, 2010, 08:20 PM
HST = Hi Shok Two. In days of yore Federal offered two lines of ammo - Hi Shok and HydraShok.

HST is an updated version of Tom Burczynski's Starfire bullet, which was loaded by PMC/El Dorado. Burczynski engineered both HydraShok and Starfire, and contributed to the HST. Starfire was a clever design that used a fluted cavity. The fluted cavity increased the surface area in which fluid pressure impinged to increase expansion performance. However the ribs that extended into the cavity had a propensity to clog with cloth when it passed through medium-heavy clothing. The HST bullet uses the fluted cavity design but the flutes and ribs are exposed AFTER the bullet begins to expand. Once the flutes and ribs are exposed to fluid pressure the increased surface area facilitates increased expansion performance.

You can purchase HST from - http://www.policehq.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryName=FEDERAL-AMMO&FilterValues=c5456663-1803-498f-9a57-3038b4914f95

For more info about terminal performance I suggest you see the Wound Ballistics page at FirearmsTactical.com - http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

stinger 327
December 17, 2010, 12:30 AM
HST = Hi Shok Two. In days of yore Federal offered two lines of ammo - Hi Shok and HydraShok.

HST is an updated version of Tom Burczynski's Starfire bullet, which was loaded by PMC/El Dorado. Burczynski engineered both HydraShok and Starfire, and contributed to the HST. Starfire was a clever design that used a fluted cavity. The fluted cavity increased the surface area in which fluid pressure impinged to increase expansion performance. However the ribs that extended into the cavity had a propensity to clog with cloth when it passed through medium-heavy clothing. The HST bullet uses the fluted cavity design but the flutes and ribs are exposed AFTER the bullet begins to expand. Once the flutes and ribs are exposed to fluid pressure the increased surface area facilitates increased expansion performance.

You can purchase HST from - http://www.policehq.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryName=FEDERAL-AMMO&FilterValues=c5456663-1803-498f-9a57-3038b4914f95

For more info about terminal performance I suggest you see the Wound Ballistics page at FirearmsTactical.com - http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
Many thanks again for the useful info. I have some of those old Starfires made by PMC, as well as the Golden Sabers they all appeared on the scene at the same time. Hydroshok in .45 ACP also.
But never heard of this Hyshok maybe it's new unlike the old Hydroshok but I will look into it.
You can go to Walmart get a box of 100 180 grain .40 cal. HP for 32.00. Now that's a great buy. Also saw 165 grain FMJ pack of 100 both of these are by Remington the white box with green letters?

stinger 327
December 17, 2010, 12:53 AM
HST = Hi Shok Two. In days of yore Federal offered two lines of ammo - Hi Shok and HydraShok.

HST is an updated version of Tom Burczynski's Starfire bullet, which was loaded by PMC/El Dorado. Burczynski engineered both HydraShok and Starfire, and contributed to the HST. Starfire was a clever design that used a fluted cavity. The fluted cavity increased the surface area in which fluid pressure impinged to increase expansion performance. However the ribs that extended into the cavity had a propensity to clog with cloth when it passed through medium-heavy clothing. The HST bullet uses the fluted cavity design but the flutes and ribs are exposed AFTER the bullet begins to expand. Once the flutes and ribs are exposed to fluid pressure the increased surface area facilitates increased expansion performance.

You can purchase HST from - http://www.policehq.com/ProductList.aspx?CategoryName=FEDERAL-AMMO&FilterValues=c5456663-1803-498f-9a57-3038b4914f95

For more info about terminal performance I suggest you see the Wound Ballistics page at FirearmsTactical.com - http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
I read the info on Hornady Critical Defense ammo lacking the ability to shoot through barriers but being primary bullet to hit a person. It's is strange though because everywhere I have seen this ammo it is sold out. Must be very popular or they can't keep up with demand.
Also that website don't you have to have peace officer status to purchase the 9mm, .40 cal, .45 ACP in the HST version?
Are there any civilian websites or stores that sell this HST Federal ammo?

Taurus_9mm
December 17, 2010, 12:58 AM
Because I prefer the slight gain in velocity, own personal preference are those between 155 gr. and 165 gr.

stinger 327
December 17, 2010, 01:07 AM
Because I prefer the slight gain in velocity, own personal preference are those between 155 gr. and 165 gr.
Why not 180 grains?

Shawn Dodson
December 17, 2010, 12:36 PM
Must be very popular or they can't keep up with demand. The uninformed are buying into Hornady's alluring marketing hype.

Think of it as "special-purpose" ammo as opposed to "general-purpose" ammo. General-purpose ammo performs well over a broader spectrum of circumstances whereas special-purpose ammo performs well when circumstances fit "inside the box" it was specially designed for. Special-purpose ammo does not perform well when circumstances fall "outside the box".

Also that website don't you have to have peace officer status to purchase the 9mm, .40 cal, .45 ACP in the HST version? As a private citizen you can buy all the HST ammo you want from Streicher's.

The only ammo that's restricted to law enforcement is Winchester, and that's simply because of Winchester policy (which went into effect after the Black Talon fiasco). Official Winchester distributors are prohibited from selling Winchester Law Enforcement ammo to priviate citizens. If they do, Winchester threatens to cancel the distributorship.

stinger 327
December 17, 2010, 08:55 PM
The uninformed are buying into Hornady's alluring marketing hype.

Think of it as "special-purpose" ammo as opposed to "general-purpose" ammo. General-purpose ammo performs well over a broader spectrum of circumstances whereas special-purpose ammo performs well when circumstances fit "inside the box" it was specially designed for. Special-purpose ammo does not perform well when circumstances fall "outside the box".

As a private citizen you can buy all the HST ammo you want from Streicher's.

The only ammo that's restricted to law enforcement is Winchester, and that's simply because of Winchester policy (which went into effect after the Black Talon fiasco). Official Winchester distributors are prohibited from selling Winchester Law Enforcement ammo to priviate citizens. If they do, Winchester threatens to cancel the distributorship.
Many thanks again for useful info. Perhaps I will try out that ammo by Federal HST? Is this a preferable brand for .40 cal only or is it just as high performing with the .45 aCP and 9MM?
Only have 1 month 2 weeks to purchase by mail as it will be law - No more ammo sales through the mail.

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