Slow and Heavy VS. Fast and Light


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GunNut1976
December 12, 2010, 11:51 PM
I know this has been debated a million times and I'm not looking for "what's better" I'd like some more info on the actual terminal mechanics of the situation. Given the exact same bullet design how does a 230 gr. Gold dot goin 850 fps act as compared to a 125 gr. Gold dot going 1400 fps. I'd like to know direct effects on expansion and penetration and also secondary factory such as hydrostatic shock and temporary wound cavities and the whole bit.

Thanks everyone in advance

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CDW4ME
December 13, 2010, 12:27 AM
I've carried a Glock 33 in 357 SIG, G27 in 40 S&W and a 3'' Kimber 45 acp; I think these are represenative of the question.
The 33 is the leader in KE, followed by the 27, then the chopped 1911.
In reality, I'm likely as well protected by one as the other.
However, from what I know, bigger bullets make bigger holes.
Anyone ever said, "I shoulda used a smaller bullet" after defending themself?

W.E.G.
December 13, 2010, 12:29 AM
Irrelevant.

Hit here, get results.
Hit elsewhere, not so much.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/trivia/shirt.jpg

RoboDuck
December 13, 2010, 12:52 AM
My bullet may be a little slow, but don't worry,,,, it will get there.

I'm not concerned about expansion, it's already going to make a big hole.


45 ACP 200 grain CCI/Speer Gold Dot JHP +P @ 1062 FPS.

mwpslp
December 13, 2010, 12:57 AM
Interested in hearing a bit about that myself.

RoboDuck
December 13, 2010, 01:02 AM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

papa_bear
December 13, 2010, 12:50 PM
bigger is better plain and simple. however a handgun is a handgun. don't expect a major noticeable difference.

A.H. Fox
December 13, 2010, 01:00 PM
I just hit the place I am aiming and let the bullet an BG work it out. :cool:

Deus Machina
December 13, 2010, 01:54 PM
In a pure sense, performance in the different calibers would depend on the bullet design. A flat soft-nose might expand better from a fast, small bullet than a large, slow one, and deep-cavity JHP's vice versa. Gold Dots work well on either.

At handgun velocity, hydrostatic shock is effectively nonexistant and temporary cavities make no difference.

Mostly, a good fast 9mm will expand just fine from the speed, and a slow .45 from the cavity, but I don't see the point in worrying about it.They both work.

KBintheSLC
December 13, 2010, 02:05 PM
I prefer heavy AND fast... that's why I just adore the 10mm Auto. 200g @ 1200fps = No compromises. However, it's all worth nothing if you don't hit your target.

MikeNice
December 13, 2010, 02:07 PM
A big heavy bullet is going to get you slightly more penetration in flesh over a smaller faster bullet. Being the exact same in all other regards they should both expand equally well. (When it comes to hollow points.)

If you are worried about having to shoot through a car door, or something of that nature, faster and smaller is better to an extent. Since you are putting more energy in to a smaller space there is a better chance to punch through. A 9mm 124gr is probably going to do better than a .45ACP 230gr against a car door. With modern car construction they will probably work though.

Basically with all things being the same I like to go heavy for the caliber. I would use a Federal HST 147gr 9mm instead of a 124gr. The company that distributes Federal LE ammo has done a bit of testing. Usually the HST performs better when using heavy for caliber bullets.

Now if I was using something like Starfire hollow points I would go with a 124gr just to ensure that I was achieving enough velocity. It is an older design and some older designs are speed sensitive.

So, really it all depends on how the bullet is made.

I tend to prefer Hydra Shok and HST rounds that are heavy for their caliber.

NMGonzo
December 13, 2010, 06:06 PM
big, fast, and heavy

there!

481
December 13, 2010, 06:16 PM
....I'm not looking for "what's better"....

You are gonna get a lot of that here.




Best advice I can provide is to obtain a copy of Duncan MacPherson's book, "Bullet Penetration", and read it cover to cover.

The answers you seek are there and if you are capable of understanding what he offers, you will be miles.....no.....light years ahead of the average shooter/gun owner in your comprehension of terminal ballistics.

gbran
December 13, 2010, 07:24 PM
Hit here, get results.
Hit elsewhere, not so much.


Are you sayin it's all about "shirt placement"?

Hatterasguy
December 13, 2010, 07:52 PM
Doesn't matter as long as you put rounds on target, everything else are just details and not that important.

.380, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, .50 etc it doesn't matter, 2-3 to the center mass will kill or put someone on the ground crying for their mother.

merlinfire
December 13, 2010, 08:59 PM
Doesn't matter as long as you put rounds on target, everything else are just details and not that important.

.380, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, .50 etc it doesn't matter, 2-3 to the center mass will kill or put someone on the ground crying for their mother

This.

GunNut1976
December 13, 2010, 10:11 PM
You are gonna get a lot of that here.




Best advice I can provide is to obtain a copy of Duncan MacPherson's book, "Bullet Penetration", and read it cover to cover.

The answers you seek are there and if you are capable of understanding what he offers, you will be miles.....no.....light years ahead of the average shooter/gun owner in your comprehension of terminal ballistics.
thank you that sounds right up my alley. you know after the first 50 smart ass replies I was wondering if anyone was going to give me something useful. Just kidding!

481
December 13, 2010, 10:33 PM
thank you that sounds right up my alley. You know after the first 50 smart ass replies i was wondering if anyone was going to give me something useful. Just kidding!

ha ha

:D

Iam2taz
December 13, 2010, 10:41 PM
It seems there are a lot of military guys begging for a .45 in leiu of a 9 mm. Both will probably go through the average man if you don't hit anything major. Hit a bone and the .45 will most likely do the most damage and knock the guy off balance. Graphs that I have seen show the expansion / perhipheral damage of the .45 to be much larger than the 9 mm. That said, most of the time you will get 7-8 rounds of .45 and 15-16 of 9 mm.
I was shooting steal plates with my 9 mm earlier in the fall and sometimes they didn't fall down even though I hit them. "You have to hit them higher", said the instructor. Next guy walks up with a .45 and ding, ding, ding. Down they go. Just sayin....

GunNut1976
December 13, 2010, 10:57 PM
Doesn't matter as long as you put rounds on target, everything else are just details and not that important.

.380, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, .50 etc it doesn't matter, 2-3 to the center mass will kill or put someone on the ground crying for their mother.
__________

you know I think everyone pretty much understands this. We know that shot placement is the most important thing. Can't we talk about what bullets we think work best? Can't we talk about bullet design, expansion, penetration, terminal ballistics Can't we discuss this without some genius making remarks like this. "doesn't matter" what doesn't matter? bullet design? ".380, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, .50 etc it doesn't matter" This is so ridiculous. if there was no difference then everyone in the world would carry 9mm's or .380's with 17 round clips. If there was no difference then police agencies across the country would just spin a wheel to choose their firearm and bullets. Let's arm our soldiers with .380 LCP's and my wife with a .50 desert eagle.

Owen Sparks
December 13, 2010, 11:05 PM
Both theories are solid, it is just that most handgun bullets are really not that big or that fast. There was a show on The History Channel the other night about the controversial death of explorer Merryweather Lewis of Lewis and Clark. He supposedly shot himself in the head and then the chest and still took all night to die. Some say he was murdered.

The investigators had an exact replica of the .69 caliber horse pistol that he was known to have carried on that trip. They also had a human analogue made of ballistic gel formed around a plastic skeliton designed to have the same strength as real human bone. They shot it in the head and chest at close range. The huge 500 grain lead ball was probably not going half as fast as some modern handgun rounds though it did conciderable damage to the simulated head. and blew a shotgun slug size hole in the chest. Neither ball exited though the side of the head ruptured from the shock.

Lou McGopher
December 14, 2010, 12:20 AM
Doesn't matter as long as you put rounds on target, everything else are just details and not that important.

.380, 9mm, .357, .40, .45, .50 etc it doesn't matter, 2-3 to the center mass will kill or put someone on the ground crying for their mother.You forgot to mention .22 Short.

A.H. Fox
December 14, 2010, 01:04 PM
thank you that sounds right up my alley. you know after the first 50 smart ass replies I was wondering if anyone was going to give me something useful. Just kidding!
My "let the bullet and BG work it out" comment was not a smart ass comment. That is what I do. If the BG wins the first argument, I send more bullets at him to argue with.

Shawn Dodson
December 14, 2010, 01:43 PM
Can't we talk about what bullets we think work best? Can't we talk about bullet design, expansion, penetration, terminal ballistics Can't we discuss this without some genius making remarks like this. "doesn't matter" what doesn't matter? bullet design?

There really isn’t much to discuss.

What you hit is more important than what you hit with.

Placement and penetration are the primary factors in producing an effective wound.

A larger diameter bullet crushes a larger diameter hole as it penetrates.

The bigger hole may facilitate greater rate of blood loss. The rate of blood loss (volume of blood lost over time) determines how quickly the wound will force the bad guy to stop.

A larger diameter bullet may crush a larger hole in a major blood vessel which may increase the rate of blood loss.

A larger diameter bullet may nick the wall of a major blood vessel that would have been merely grazed by a smaller diameter bullet traveling the same exact path which may increase the rate of blood loss.

The purpose of bullet design is to produce a bullet with robust expansion qualities - one that will expand consistently and reliably despite commonly encountered variations in circumstances, and penetrate deeply enough after expanding to reliably reach and damage tissues critical to immediate survival.

GunNut1976
December 14, 2010, 08:18 PM
My "let the bullet and BG work it out" comment was not a smart ass comment. That is what I do. If the BG wins the first argument, I send more bullets at him to argue with.
dude I'm just joking around I got a lot of smart ass remarks that weren't real good answers to my questions.

Eb1
December 14, 2010, 08:41 PM
In handguns, Bigger Is Better. As for rifles, that is not always the case. Yes, it is. I was just kidding.
But seriously not always.

Tachardiapsyche
December 14, 2010, 08:44 PM
http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm

Tachardiapsyche
December 14, 2010, 08:46 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=JpwNhdcT6xAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=terminal+ballistics&source=bl&ots=tnFKZqncgw&sig=7Op1sReDeJzWD78ICr6rPLEoVNo&hl=en&ei=og4ITeu9Lof6sAOKqcnNDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12&ved=0CFoQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q&f=false

OldMac
December 14, 2010, 08:57 PM
Quick little website that allows you to punch in 10 different bullet weights and velocities to compare the resulting energies. http://www.firearmexpertwitness.com/customguns/calcnrg.html

Energy created by the bullet is influenced by velocity more than mass since Velocity is squared in the relationship.

Tachardiapsyche
December 14, 2010, 11:45 PM
the problem is there is no way to compare bullet design weight and it's terminal effects mathematically.

Real world testing is called for and there aren't too many people whose results I would trust.

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