.454 or 500 S&W Magnum


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Zombiphobia
December 13, 2010, 09:21 PM
Let's say that, hypothetically, you had to face down an angry/hungry boar grizzly bear.

Would you rather have a .454 Casull or a 500 S&W?

Pick your gun, bullet, load, and why you chose that one.

Note: I'm not talking about hunting grizz, but defense from the grizz.

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Snowdog
December 13, 2010, 09:50 PM
I do believe, as powerful as the .454 Casull is, the .500 S&W magnum has more punch.

If I were at "whites of the eyes" range of an angry grizzly, I'd want all the punch I can get, especially if I were only able to get off a couple rounds before I took a swipe of claws to the face. I'd go with a .500 S&W magnum, probably something along the lines of Corbon hunter SP.

Zundfolge
December 13, 2010, 09:53 PM
Having shot a .454 next to a .500 I would go with the .500 because frankly it was softer shooting (not that either is exactly soft).

In a weird way its like comparing the recoil of .40 and .45 ... .40 is snappy, .45 is a shove ... same with .454 vs .500 (only the snap and shove are somewhat greater).

So I would feel more comfortable making quicker followup shots with the .500 and with an attacking bear I want to get as much lead downrange as possible.

paul105
December 13, 2010, 10:08 PM
I have Freedom Arms Revolvers in both .454 and .475 Linebaugh -- If I was going fishing in Alaska and had to worry about coastal brown bears, I would choose the S&W 500 -- 4" version.

FWIW,

Paul

GoodKat
December 13, 2010, 10:40 PM
Probably the .500 for the greater power, but I have read about grizzlies taking 1 of them without dropping, so tbh if I were going into bear country, it would be with either a semi auto shotgun loaded with powerful slugs, a marlin guide gun in 45/70, or an ar in .50 beowulf, in order of likeliness.

Zoogster
December 13, 2010, 11:01 PM
I think the standard logic would be along the lines of what Zundfolge said knowing you will actually be in an immediate self defense encounter.

But...

Note: I'm not talking about hunting grizz, but defense from the grizz.

This changes everything.
The gun you have with you is the one that will protect you on that rare occasion.
The .454 comes in a much more compact package, allows familiarization with less expensive and widely available .45 colt, and is far more likely to actually be carried on your hip if you end up needing it. It can also be handloaded anywhere in between, using both commercial .454 bullets or those designed for .45 colt velocities, and so may be tailored to specific uses or regional threats.
It can also double for self defense against humans with .45 colt, filling a role in more environments.
It is has performance not far behind the .500S&W in .454.


After people hike around in the rugged outdoors with a massive .500 many times without ever needing it but quite aware of its uncomfortable bulk they typically start to leave it behind.
The gun left behind won't do you any good, and so the gun that will actually get carried is a better defensive gun.
Being agile and climbing, hiking, backpacking, or exploring in the outdoors with a giant .500 on your hip is just not going to be enjoyable.
Once the uncomfortable monster gets left behind or stowed away in your pack as a result it ceases to be available for immediate unexpected self defense.

The same can be said for long guns, a practical sidearm you will actually carry is far more likely to save your life because the long gun will often become a burden and get left behind. Or set down while skinning/cleaning/filleting or hauling something.
So the best self defense rifle leaned up against a tree several feet away while you deal with real life chores requiring two hands might as well be miles away when the bear comes calling unexpectedly.

murf
December 14, 2010, 01:57 AM
i would be happy to have eithr weapon in this hypothetical situation. i would load a hard cast, heavy-for-caliber bullet and push said bullet as fast as legally possible. and pray i get more than one shot!

22-rimfire
December 14, 2010, 07:20 AM
My reasoning would echo Zundfolge's and the nod would go to the 500 S&W in your comparison.

340PD
December 14, 2010, 09:18 AM
Why not the 460 S&W. It shoots 45 LC, 454 casull, and 460 S&W. Pretty versatile firearm. Plenty of stopping power with the 460 load.

NELSONs02
December 14, 2010, 09:23 AM
Either would work just fine. More important would be finding a double action revolver you can shoot well and get out of the holster fast enough.

CraigC
December 14, 2010, 10:43 AM
Given a choice, neither. Between those two, probably the .500 as a cartridge, though the .454 is available in platforms that do not require wheels. In this context, the .460 offers nothing over the .454. Velocity is highly overrated. What you need is a big, heavy cast LBT and pushing them to .460 velocities won't help your cause any. Whereas the .500 utilizes a bigger, much heavier bullet and that's what you need more of, mass, not velocity.

dnovo
December 14, 2010, 07:47 PM
It's a pressure curve thing. The 454 has a nasty, and abrupt recoil. The 500 has a more gradual curve and shoots 'softer' as a result. If you can find a 500 in one of their now-discontinued 'Survival Kits' which has the shorter bbl and use the comp that is designed for a cast bullet, should be a more effective bear stopper than a jacketed load. Dave

rogertc1
December 14, 2010, 08:01 PM
I have both. The 500 is less felt recoil.
Top shelf
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/rogertc1/firearms/room9.jpg

Wolfeye
December 14, 2010, 09:58 PM
I'd rather have a .500 s&w revolver in my hand if existence was boiled down to an angry bear, a pistol, and me. But the simple fact is that there will never be a fifty-caliber revolver in my hands; I already find a .44 magnum to be a heavy thing to lug around after a few days of tromping in the woods. A .454 would be a notch up from a .44, and would be cheaper to become proficient with than a .500. You can also keep a few speedloaders filled with .45 colt in your pocket if you get worried about 2-legged problems.

One thing to consider is that a 4" model 500 weighs about as much as a .454 Super Redhawk with a barrel nearly twice as long; factor in the muzzle energy from those two, and the .454 might turn out to be a better stopper.

People say that the recoil of a .500 is more manageable than that of a .454, but usually the .500 is ported while the .454 is not. I'd be curious of the difference in recoil if the .454 revolver was also ported.

All said, I'll probably never carry anything bigger than a 6" model 629 or Redhawk. Call me average.

Zombiphobia
December 14, 2010, 10:20 PM
People say that the recoil of a .500 is more manageable than that of a .454, but usually the .500 is ported while the .454 is not. I'd be curious of the difference in recoil if the .454 revolver was also ported.


Taurus makes a ported .454 Raging Bull. I've heard some less-than-satisfactory reviews of Taurus and their products usually don't *feel* like the highest quality.

However, I'm looking for a VERY hard-hitting, high-caliber, high-velocity handgun for the fairest price, and most affordable ammunition. Versatility is good. Light-weight(lightER weight) is good, heavy recoil is not really the primary concern, as follow-up shots really don't need to be lightning quick or at more than 15 meters, but being able to handle the gun with one hand(if neccesary) is desireable, as well as not needing to tote it around on a sling or a pack mule.

That being said, I will not buy a short-barreled, heavy recoiling pistol. SO with the two choices, a 4inch barrel is out of the question.

gbran
December 14, 2010, 10:46 PM
I have the 454 in a 7 1/2 inch SuperRedhawk and while a bit brutal with high power rounds, the gun is actually packable. For a defense weapon I'd look into the Alaskan model. The 500 S&W platforms are just physically too big to lug around.

lloveless
December 14, 2010, 11:50 PM
Zombiphobia wrote: "I will not buy a short-barreled, heavy recoiling pistol. SO with the two choices, a 4 inch barrel is out of the question." So tell us how much of a barrel you desire. Remember you will have to draw that gun with a bear hurtling towards you. Yep I can see it now. Poor guy never had a chance got that long barrel stuck in his holster.
ll

ArchAngelCD
December 15, 2010, 01:42 AM
Why not the 460 S&W. It shoots 45 LC, 454 casull, and 460 S&W. Pretty versatile firearm. Plenty of stopping power with the 460 load.
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw this thread. I like the idea of being able to shoot 4 different calibers in 1 revolver (it shoots the .45 Schofield too) and the .460 S&W Magnum will surely take care of anything that wants to eat you.

dnovo
December 15, 2010, 09:00 AM
Again, the 454 is justly known for it's harsh and nigh-on impossible to control recoil. You can get better results with a heavy 44Mag Buffalo Bore load or something like a heavy load 480. Either will take out anything on two or four legs and let you control the gun to deliver a quick second round on target rather than putting your second 454 up in in air while you wait for the gun to return to a horizontal attitude. I have shot all of these and the 454 in any configuration is too much of a beast for my taste. Dave

Action_Can_Do
December 15, 2010, 11:57 AM
I would choose the biggest most powerful handgun I own (if it had to be a handgun) which is my 500 S&W with a 10 and half inch barrel. I would use a 440 gr hard cast hunting bullet loaded as hot as I could get it. In all fairness though, I wouldn't exactly just give up and die if I only had a 454 casull. They can drop a grizzly pretty well.

Zundfolge
December 15, 2010, 12:30 PM
People say that the recoil of a .500 is more manageable than that of a .454, but usually the .500 is ported while the .454 is not. I'd be curious of the difference in recoil if the .454 revolver was also ported.

When I got a chance to shoot the two side by side both pistols were ported.

The .500mag was a S&W with 6-1/2" barrel, the .454 was a Taurus Raging Bull with 8-3/8" barrel.

According to their respective web sites the S&W weighs 60.7oz and the Taurus 62.8oz

The .454 was still snappier than the .500

Buck Snort
December 15, 2010, 03:54 PM
The 454 will kill'm dead but the 500 will kill'm deader!

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 15, 2010, 07:03 PM
Probably the .500 for the greater power, but I have read about grizzlies taking 1 of them without dropping,

Couldn't be from the person shooting while scared poopless missed the mark a bit could it? I mean granted the rounds from a .500 S&W are pretty large ( I use 500 grain JSP in my 4") but you still have to hit the mark pretty well as with ANY cartridge.

However, I'm looking for a VERY hard-hitting, high-caliber, high-velocity handgun for the fairest price, and most affordable ammunition.

Ammo for either (As far as what you want for defense) is going to be close to the same price. The .500 is a bit more expensive but you are getting a LOT more power for your expenses.

Versatility is good. Light-weight(lightER weight) is good, heavy recoil is not really the primary concern, as follow-up shots really don't need to be lightning quick or at more than 15 meters, but being able to handle the gun with one hand(if neccesary) is desireable, as well as not needing to tote it around on a sling or a pack mule.

That being said, I will not buy a short-barreled, heavy recoiling pistol. SO with the two choices, a 4inch barrel is out of the question.

Here is where you have a problem. I have both the 4" and the 8.53" .500 S&W. The 8+ is scoped and I use it for hunting. I carry the 4" when I am in Grizz country. The recoil is substantial but very manageable both one and two handed. DRAW speed is what you really want in those situations Zombie. In my hunter I load the 300gr LEVERevolution and have yet have an animal take a step after contact. 1 was a 320 pound boar hog.

I am accurate with my 4" out to 25 yards. Past that and I suck to put it mildly but that is more about me than the weapon.

To sum it up, I would easily pick the 4" .500 S&W over the .454. More power, the 4" packs well and holsters well. All those saying it is so heavy obviously has not held them both. It is very little more in weight than a .454. It is actually lighter than most of the 6 inch .454's.

Zombiphobia
December 16, 2010, 06:50 PM
thanks for all the replies, guys. Outstanding ^^^^^^ that one, that's what I was looking for. Much appreciated


Added: How about exit wounds, how would you describe that?

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 16, 2010, 08:48 PM
Added: How about exit wounds, how would you describe that?

It varies with the animal as well as the distance. Big and slow tends to not destroy meat like the fast rifle calibres. A couple of deer had baseball size exit wounds when I hit shoulder at pretty close range (around 30 yards) with the 300gr Evo's but I have hit some hogs with 400gr Hard Casts that just blew right threw but of course a .50cal entry and exit wound size is MORE than sufficient to drop pretty much anything that walks. I have blown apart a few 6x6 posts with the 500gr JSP in the 4". Can you say Toothpicks anyone? :)

Basically, if you want power and reliability, you would be hard pressed to find a better weapon for Grizzly land. Love mine and I feel plenty safe with it on my side.

Zombiphobia
December 16, 2010, 08:59 PM
have you got any target pictures to show the accuracy?
I thought the 500 S&W was big and fast, not slow. Altough I guess it could be considered slow for the weight. I seem to recall reading reports of 2,000 FPS, which I wouldn't call slow.
I could be confused though.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 16, 2010, 09:06 PM
Yes my 300gr hit a little over 2k which is pretty quick for a handgun I suppose. My 500gr JSP hit around 1420 out of the 4". Ill look around here for some Targets and snap some shots for you.

captain awesome
December 16, 2010, 10:26 PM
I thought the 500 S&W was big and fast, not slow. Altough I guess it could be considered slow for the weight. I seem to recall reading reports of 2,000 FPS, which I wouldn't call slow.
I could be confused though.

The 500 mag is big and fast. Comparing it to a rifle it would be big and slow. It is an amazingly versatile gun though few give it that credit, Especially if you hand load, which is the only way most of us can afford to become proficient with it. You can fire 275gr 2100+ fps screamers all the way up to 700 gr hardcast bone crushers at 1200fps, if that's not a grizzly killer I don't know what is.

CraigC
December 17, 2010, 11:20 AM
I don't particularly care for the big X-frames but I'd rather have a .500S&W than ANY shotgun. Sectional density is one of the most important factors and a good .500 LBT has it all over any shotgun slug. The whole shotgun for bears is myth and legend. It doesn't stand to scrutiny. Can you even get 10ga slugs???

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 17, 2010, 12:48 PM
You can get them, but the real question is, can you SHOOT them!? That is a lot of whack into the shoulder with a ton of muzzle rise. Better hope you drill it first shot because more than likely you wont get a second.

Guns&Religion
December 17, 2010, 01:13 PM
The .500 would be better against a bear, but I would not feel inadequately armed with the .454. Also I like the flexibility of using .45 LC or .45 Auto (with moon clips or 0 rings)

788Ham
December 17, 2010, 01:17 PM
Zombiphobia,

Take a look at the "Hunting" thread on this site, regarding the Win. Platinum round. Read the story in that thread about how the .500 works in 1000 lb. Brownies, amazing read. Might give some thought about how much those hairy suckers can absorb!

tango2echo
December 17, 2010, 07:58 PM
Ok. I am going to weigh in here...

I spent several decades as a bear guide in Northern Ontario, have personally taken over 300 bears, and have hunted Browns in BC, AK, and Northern Russia. I have had more defensive situations with bears than any sane man should have in thirty lifetimes. ANY pistol is just a means to an end. There is no firearm you can carry in a holster, bring to shooting position, and shoot rapidly and effectively enough 100% of the time to stop a charging bear.

However, if you are going to carry a pistol as a primary defensive weapon against Momma Brown and Company, it better be double action, atleast .45 caliber, have over 1000ftlbs of energy, loaded with heavy solids, and have the sights filed off. (So after the bear shoves it up your backside it won't hurt as much pulling it out.)

I carried a Mossberg 835 12ga 3 1/2" with a 18" bbl and 1 1/8oz slugs for most of my time guiding, as well as a .454. My primary hunting weapon was a .300WM loaded with 200gr Partitions. (I also used several .338's, and a .416) I have seen bears killed cleanly with a .243 and I've seen a 500lb black that was wounded with a poorly placed .30-06 bullet take 3 more rounds of .30-06 and 6 of .300WM to stop a charge.

Personally, between the .454 and the .500S&W, I would prefer the .500S&W, atleast until they come out with the .600S&W!

t2e

dan3
December 18, 2010, 01:17 PM
If the only handgun choice as a "defense" is either a .454 or a .500 - I'd go with the .500 S&W...throwing the heaviest hard cast lead slug I could find. However, I really wouldn't be thrilled with either one. The X-frame S&Ws (IMHO) are just too big /heavy/awkward to be totin' as a backup/carry gun.

My personal choice would be, in a double action, the Ruger Redhawk .45colt, 5 1/2" barrel with at least 325grs of hard cast lead - loaded HOT!! I usually carry a 5 1/2" Redhawk in .45colt or .44 mag when hunting. I'm also partial to Ruger's Bisley Blackhawk .45colt/.45acp in 5 1/2" - all of the Rugers are usually carried in hip holsters (occasionally in a Simply Rugged with the chest mount straps).

Hondo 60
December 18, 2010, 01:41 PM
I'd be OK with either.
But the 454 Casull intrigues me.

Most likely will get one in the very near future.

Tomcat47
December 19, 2010, 01:06 AM
I like the .454 it will do anything that the .500 will do in my opinion and with less money out of your pocket and more options on the market available for it.

And lets face it the Raging Bull is just awesome, especially in 8-3/8 !

What a hoot! :D

captain awesome
December 19, 2010, 08:21 AM
I like the .454 it will do anything that the .500 will do in my opinion

no, it definitely won't. The 500 ca do a lot the 454 can't and the 454 can do stuff the 500 can't. they both kill very well however.

Zombiephobia,
I just remembered about this. I personally plan to get one some time soon, and I think this just might be what you are looking for. Scroll down past the book advertisement (excellent read btw) and read the article and review from gunblast. This would be my choice for a grizzly defense situation, loaded with a 600 gr hardcast.

http://www.john-ross.net/store.php

you could also check out http://ballisticsupply.net/ cheapest factory ammo you can find for the 500. still cheaper to reload though.

CraigC
December 19, 2010, 09:59 AM
Last I checked, the .454 won't sling a cast bullet over 360gr, certainly not in the same class as a +500gr and it will never be .50 caliber. I'll take a .480Ruger over the .454 every day of the week.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 19, 2010, 01:57 PM
Well Waywatcher, he is actually asking about 2 specific offerings. The 454 and the 500 S&W. A couple of others have kind of went off kilter with other offerings. Rather than offering a knowledgeable opinion you decided to pop in with a snide comment. Perhaps you should spend more time out and about rather than taking what precious little time you have and wasting it on making comments in a forum that you are not interested in.

Zombie, I guess I am going to have to take the beast out and shoot a little this week so I can print some targets for you to get an idea on the accuracy with the 4". Thought I had some targets laying around from it but I guess they ended up in the trash pile. The things I do to help people SHEESH :)

Tomcat47
December 19, 2010, 06:51 PM
Fred Bear used a recurve for Bear! just a thought.....:rolleyes:

And I will stand corrected by captain awesome in as much as the .500 has options and energy above the .454....but my intention was to imply for bears the .454 would do as well as the .500 And he makes a great statement between the two!

And I like Hondo 60 ..... " My 454 Intrigues Me " :)

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 19, 2010, 09:09 PM
Captain Awesome, Remind me later to send my wife in your direction. I went to that link you posted and dag nabbit I am going to order me one of them. Oh and btw, while my wife is one of the most understanding women on the planet when it comes to my enthusiasm for weapons, she cant seem to understand why I need 3 of the SAME DAMN GUN! (Her words not mine)

Zombie, If I do order that new one and like it, I will more than likely be selling the 4". Ill keep you updated :) if you find yourself in the market for it. Wife usually wins.

Captain, when I point her in your direction, she is not going to be happy :evil:

YOUR FAULT!

Lost Sheep
December 19, 2010, 10:35 PM
However, I'm looking for a VERY hard-hitting, high-caliber, high-velocity handgun for the fairest price, and most affordable ammunition. Versatility is good. Light-weight(lightER weight) is good, heavy recoil is not really the primary concern, as follow-up shots really don't need to be lightning quick or at more than 15 meters, but being able to handle the gun with one hand(if neccesary) is desireable, as well as not needing to tote it around on a sling or a pack mule.
Brown bears will OFTEN make a false charge, which generally stops at about 6 or 7 meters. No way to tell if a charge is real or false outside of that range, so 10-15 meters is not likely to pass muster as a DLP (Defense of Life or Property) shooting in these parts. Alaska State Troopers or Alaska Dept of Fish & Game investigate all such shootings. I don't know about the areas you frequent, though.

I carry a 454 Casull Super Redhawk 7.5" because I like Rugers better than Smiths (because of their strength and internal lockwork). My friend keeps a 500 S&W 4" for bear protection. He carried a Smith on the job for decades and trusts the maker.

If Ruger made a 500 Bill (my name for an extended 500 S&W cartridge, which would, of course, require a stretched-frame Super Redhawk) I would opt for it. I believe in big bullets and deep penetration on bears. Hard cast and large, flat meplat.

Typical energy levels for comparison purposes (source: Wikipedia)

ft lbs cartridge

1,000 .44 Mag
1,200 45 Colt (Ruger and T/C only)
1,500 .50 AE
1,300 480 Ruger
1,800 .475 Linebaugh (same bullet as 480 Ruger, longer cartridge)
1,900 .454 Casull
2,400 .460 SW
2,600 .500 SW

and the .500 can throw a MUCH bigger bullet.

But, in bear country, I prefer pepper spray as my second line of defense and the Ruger as the third. (Good woodscraft being the first line of defense.) If only one of the two tools, it is the spray. Spray has a MUCH better track record of keeping humans unharmed in bear-human encounters than firearms of any type. You also blew a big hole in (or ruined) a nice hike or fishing trip if you have to shoot a bear, whether you killed it or not.

If you wound a bear with a firearm, you have left a danger for humans who follow behind you. If you run off a bear with pepper spray, you have left a bear more likely to be human-averse, thereby making the woods actually safer (once the spray's effects have worn off the bear's senses of smell and sight). You should report either encounter, but are legally required (again, in Alaska) to report it if you shoot the bear.

On your other thoughts:

I'm looking for a VERY hard-hitting, high-caliber, high-velocity handgun for the fairest price, and most affordable ammunition. Versatility is good.

Big bullets hit hardest. Cross-sectional area is important and momentum is more significant than energy (in my opinion).

In these parts, 500 S&W ammunition runs around $3 each. Reloading cuts that cost to less than a quarter of that. My Freedom Arms 454 cost the same as my friend's 500 Smith, a bit over $1,000. I got my .454 Super Redhawk for an even $500 (new from Wal-Mart - unused but showcase abused and WalMart reneged on their promise to fix the broken rear sight, but I held up my end of the purchase anyway).

I would love to have a 480 Ruger 5-shot 7.5", but Ruger never built any in that configuration.

I hope my ramblings and opinions help inform your thoughts.

Good luck.

Consider getting a reloading setup.

Lost Sheep

Beyond_Perfection
December 20, 2010, 04:56 AM
Just a question please don't flame me to much.
I would think .460 over .454 simply because you can use 45lc, 454 or 460 in it.
It comes in the bear kit with orange box and all the goodies.

I would think the 500 with the monster weight bullets would be better at the bear problem by a bit but the 460 is just so much more versatile.

Barrel length is a bit much but what about a BFR in 45-70 or 450 Marlin?

Being single action you could fan it like Bob Mundun....:neener: OK that last part is a joke.

Zombiphobia
December 20, 2010, 05:44 AM
Thanks for all the replies, this thread is turning out pretty well, I think.

Just for the record though, the question was hypothetical. I have no intention whatsoever of going to Alaska or anywhere else that I have to justify shooting a very large, dangerous charging animal. I was simply asking "between the two, which would you pick and why?"
Legality has nothing to do with it, unless of course the lagality of owning or using would influence your choice for the given situation.

I'd also like to ask for the DE debate to please cease. This is a revolver thread, not an autoloader thread. Personaly, I have nothing much against the DE, infact I'd like to have one someday, but this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with autoloaders.

As bragging note, say what you will, but I'm a big guy and an 8 lb revolver isn't going to present a huge problem for me to draw from a holster single handedly(and I wouldn't use a plain belt holster either for obvious reasons). Sure can't do it as fast as I can with a 2 lb gun, but I can still do it. I lift a lot of heavy weights in vigorous, awakward motions everyday, and just as a test, I tried using a 15lb hand weight in a from-the-hip pistol-drawing fashion, out-stretch aim type of deal to see how easy it would be. Sure, it was a bit awkward, but I can do it well enough to not qualify as "slow" and "definitely be bear food".

All that nonsense aside, this isn't a contest either, so let's all keep to the point.. which was.. between .454 and 500 S&W against an angry grizz, which would you choose and why? There was a bit about the particular projectile launching system you would choose, as well. Pretty much anyting beyond those key points is just excess rambling, much like my soon-to-be questioned statement regarding heavy weights and such.


Great stuff guys and gals, keep it coming!!

Prosser
December 20, 2010, 04:13 PM
I have what I think is the near perfect bear gun.
Freedom Arms 83 converted to .500 JRH, which gets in since it's the short version of the .500 S&W:D

Using hardcast 430 grain bullets at 1350 fps, the factory load from Buffalobore,
this round has proven to penetrate car sized bison, asian buffalo, Nigali, etc.

The package is light enough to carry all the time, and, yes, it recoils, but, not absurdly.

That said, the two big bears taken in Alaska by local hunters both took 11 rounds each to finally go down, but, that was from a .375 H&H.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/FA83500JRH852010/FA83RH500JRH852010.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/FA83500JRH852010/DSC_0032.jpg

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 20, 2010, 04:24 PM
That said, the two big bears taken in Alaska by local hunters both took 11 rounds each to finally go down, but, that was from a .375 H&H

I'll say it again, couldn't be shot placement in those instances could it? NOOOOOOOOOOO NEEEEVVVVVEEEERRRRRR. While Brown Bears are some tough critters no doubt, they are not invincible!!! 11 shots from a .375 H&H tells me that those were not "hunters" and had absolutely NO idea where to hit a Brown Bear. It is stories such as these that shows me common sense and simple marksmanship are becoming a VERY scarce resource nowadays.

SharpsDressedMan
December 20, 2010, 05:21 PM
When in bear country, I'm going to duct tape this baby to my hand, and if the bear gets too close, I'm going to shove my hand into his jaws, and empty the gun. Should help reduce muzzle blast and recoil. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05273.jpg

captain awesome
December 21, 2010, 01:33 AM
Captain Awesome, Remind me later to send my wife in your direction. I went to that link you posted and dag nabbit I am going to order me one of them. Oh and btw, while my wife is one of the most understanding women on the planet when it comes to my enthusiasm for weapons, she cant seem to understand why I need 3 of the SAME DAMN GUN! (Her words not mine)

haha, glad to hear it, still saving for mine. Let me know how it goes when you get it.

My wife is the same way. She put the Kibosh on 44 mags after my fifth one. Still have growing room for the 500 though;)

atlanticfire
December 21, 2010, 01:55 PM
I've never been in beer country let alone shot at one. But I think my 500 mag with 700 gr cast loaded to a little over 1200 should do it.
http://jaybiddle.com/GUNS/700gr.jpg

Panzercat
December 21, 2010, 02:10 PM
Supposedly a Ruger Alaskan in the .454 is managable according to the people firing it. That said, I'm a fan of physics. The more mass you can send downrange, the better; both in individual units and as a whole.

That said, there are practical limits to that, since you realistically can't cart around an M60 for everyday anti bear defense. Are you carring this around every day? Special occasion hikes? Your carry pistol is probably going to cost 2-3 pounds. I know, this is pistols, but consider a double barreled shotty loaded with slugs. At 18in it won't weigh much and allows for devestating and instantaneous second shot. From everything I've heard on Brownies, they can cruise full stealth at 40+ mph when they want to. You probably won't get more than 2 shots anyway. Just a thought at any rate.

Prosser
December 21, 2010, 04:59 PM
I'm not a real fan of super heavy bullets. The 700's at 1200 fps just recoil too much.
If a 440 LFN at 950 fps will go end to end on a 1500 pound Asian buffalo, I just don't see needing anything more then 430's at 1350 fps. Note these are both .500 JRH rounds, and, 500 S&W rounds.

Sam1911
December 21, 2010, 06:05 PM
Seems we have a discussion between TWO choices. The OP has requested that the thread become a little more focused. Now it is. Let us let it remain so.

Harley Quinn
December 23, 2010, 01:06 PM
This is an interesting Video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8CuOybgmxQ

I was in a gunstore yesterday person bought a 460 S&W because he does not reload and can shoot 460, 454 and 45 LC factory, in it...

The situation is in my opinion the 500 is the king now if you reload, capable of all above, based on what you reload, and want to shoot that day...

I think you have to walk your way up and down the recoil scale (if you want to be truly handy with item) shooting something moderate to know the true accuracy you can build up, then going into the hottest you can handle or gun can shoot, to be able to handle the beating you take with what the Bear hunter would want to carry, if looking for the biggest and baddest round...

Sort of like bodybuilding you work in all the ranges of weight to get the muscle and definition over a time of intense application... When trying to go for max (bear shooting) you don't do as many reps as you would in moderate range for sure, body will not handle it, simple really...Stress and adreneline are sometimes your friend, but not as a rule if not trained...


(((There was a video of a guy shooting a 454 (I believe) and it flew out of his hand very funny in a sick way, to prove that it takes time and training to become what you want to be if you hunt bears with a handgun)))...

So reloading is the answer along with the 500 S&W as the tool... It is a very simple question the OP is asking, but not a real simple answer imho...

Very few can handle the recoil and still shoot well...

I discussed it with the person buying the 460 and his logic was right on, shoot the 45LC or 454 and last for hottie 460 (for the no reloading buff)...

Both or all 3 will get the job done if placement is there:D

Regards

NELSONs02
December 23, 2010, 01:21 PM
When in bear country, I'm going to duct tape this baby to my hand, and if the bear gets too close, I'm going to shove my hand into his jaws, and empty the gun. Should help reduce muzzle blast and recoil. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05273.jpg
That thing must be pretty bad w/o the break on it right?

Tomcat47
December 24, 2010, 02:01 PM
Nice Smith .500 I was looking at one of these... I have shot the 8-3/8 version but I bet the recoil is rough on this one.

timney t
December 25, 2010, 02:18 AM
i own a 454 and love it but if i was to do it all over again i would get the 460 S&W!

you can shoot 3 different bullets out of the 460.

45 long colt
454 casull
460 S&W

that in itself is awesome.

Prosser
December 26, 2010, 01:36 AM
.454 or 500 S&W Magnum
Let's say that, hypothetically, you had to face down an angry/hungry boar grizzly bear.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/BEARS/60982714pWCPim_ph.jpg

Would you rather have a .454 Casull or a 500 S&W?

Pick your gun, bullet, load, and why you chose that one.

Note: I'm not talking about hunting grizz, but defense from the grizz.

So, I get my choice, in front of the bear, and don't have to carry it? .500 S&W
all the way.
I would hand load 420 grain Punch Bullets
http://www.beltmountain.com/punch.htm
http://www.beltmountain.com/updated_images/500-420.jpg

Minimum load for that bullet with 4227 or H110 is around 1500 fps, 40K pressure, maximum around 1700 fps. I'd probably go with something towards the higher end, since I'm firing it out of a canon that soaks up recoil(pretty much any .500 S&W revolver) and, the fuller the case, the more consistent velocity, and best accuracy.

Punch bullets are tough. Saw one of those 420's shot into the ground, gravel and all. We dug it out, and, it was so strong, it was not deformed in anyway.
We cleaned it off, and, considered loading it again, after measuring carefully.

They break bones, and penetrate pretty much forever, like 4-6 feet in bison.

And, they go straight.

Second choice is a LFN, around 525 grains, and 1100-1200 fps. Couple guys are using these on pigs, deer, and, they swear they are second only to Thor's Hammer in effect on medium sized game.
On the otherhand, Gary Reeder says his bear soaked up a couple such loads, with 440 grain bullets, and the bear kept going. He pushes 350 grain LFN at 1350 fps, or so, IIRC.

Big Kid
December 26, 2010, 09:41 AM
I like 44 Mag. I know that wasn't the question, and I do think the 500 is the better choice in the 2 mentioned, after all the energy in ftlbs is almost that of many 12 gauge slugs. Now having been in grizzly country a lot, my stand is, be aware of what's around you, don't hide from the bear, let it know your there and you likely won't have any issues. But really, how many people with out the stressfull shooting scenarious and trainging will be able to shoot a charging grizzly at that range and not be injured. That's why I like the 44 mag, it's great, will use specials, and thpough I"m effective with it if i were attacked by a bear, the bear would most likely slip in my pile of crap, than be hit by my bullet.

ClemY
December 26, 2010, 05:27 PM
I will take one of these bad boys, both .500 S&Ws, loaded with an appropriate 440 gr. lead flat point, loaded to something like 1000 to 1100 fps. Should provide controlability with penetration.

TRP1
January 29, 2011, 10:51 PM
The 500 with 700 grain bullets from ballistic supply should do the trick

NMGonzo
January 29, 2011, 11:27 PM
I rather carry a semi-auto shotgun

Or a .50 beowulf AR

okespe04
January 29, 2011, 11:29 PM
I really like shooting the S&W .500. Its like no other, I'd take the .500.

bluetopper
January 29, 2011, 11:56 PM
Without a doubt, my choice would be my 500 S&W Handi-Rifle slug around my shoulder. The performance of hard cast gas check bullets out of it is phenominal. Over 3,000 ft. lbs. of energy. It's been the best $300 I've spent on firearms in my life.......and quite entertaining too.

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