Trail Boss causing squibs...

I'm loading trail boss powder in 38 special cases.

Today I stopped when I realized my barrel was filled with three bullets.
I was shooting a S&W Model 36 snub.

The loads were 3.7 grains of TB and a 125gr jacketed hp.
I might as well have just shot primers.

My loads that I was loading that were down bellow 2gr with a hbwc were firing just fine. Then I load these and total crap.


I came back home and loaded up 20 more rounds of the stuff and took the blackhawk and a friends chrono out with me... velocities were all over the place, some of the bullets you could watch go down range, other would go off with a bang.

out of that second 20rds I had to push a bullet from the barrel 4 times.

IMR specifically stated Trail Boss should NOT be used with jacketed bullets. That powder was designed for use with lead bullets only. Where did you get your load data for jacketed bullets and Trail Boss?

From the IMR Site:
Trail Boss was designed specifically for low velocity lead bullets suitable for Cowboy Action shooting.
BTW, what would you want to use Trail Boss with a jacketed bullet anyway???

For the past week I've been shooting the stuff. I'm fully aware it says it's for lead bullets, but there shouldnt be a problem getting the things out of the barrel.

As for what I'm doing that for,

playing with low recoil snub nose loads....
ruining good guns...
it's cold and gross outside, POO happens(least an astrix offend someone)...
stare at a loading press long enough and ya start getting those "hmm I wonder if I..." thoughts

and I've got a huge box of the things, and little boxes of lead...

If you're going to load a 125gr Jacketed bullet I would suggest using a full case of powder, not 3.7gr. On the Hodgdon site the Max charge for a 125gr lead bullet is 5.0gr, the Max with a 125gr jacketed bullet is probably higher.

To get the Max charge with the 125gr bullet you're using find where the bottom of the bullet will be in the brass and full the case with Trail Boss to that mark. I'm thinking using 5.0+gr of powder will fair much better than 3.7gr with a jacketed bullet.

my powder isnt even igniting unless it is pushed against the primer though. Thats the real problem here. It's almost like its a wadcutter powder only, or I've got some bad powder...

I was loading magnum primers and not having any issues, but I really doubt the primer is the culprit here.

If you fill the case like I suggested you won't have ignition problems. The powder will be right up against the primer. DO NOT compress Trail Boss though. Breaking the "donuts" will change the burn rate and it becomes very unstable and will spike pressures.

Are you sure it's not a powder dispenser problem? Do all the cases have powder or equal amounts of powder?

Trailboss is a low energy powder, per volume, to give similar pressures and ballistics to blackpowder (per volume) in large capacity cases.

Where guys are using it in bottleneck rifle loads with jacketed bullets, most will say they're using ~90-100% of case powder capacity.

Remo is correct, a full case works much better like I've been saying. You can not over charge Trail Boss because it's like Black Powder. Fill the case and shoot it!

Im using dippers and a RCBS JR3 single stage press.
Everything is done one step at a time perfectly.

Only time I use a dispenser and progressive is for my 40s and 9s, I use the single stage on my 10mm too.

The old single stage makes good looking consistent rounds when everything else is up to par

A 1cc dipper should yeild around 5gr of TB, fill a case to the bullet base mark of a seated bullet, then find a dipper that closely matches that amount.
Like ArchAngelCD says fill the case(powder volume) but don't compress TB.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf Lead bullets in handguns. :)

It will work, but gives very poor ES & SD numbers with plated or jacketed compared to lead. You still need enough to get the bullet out of the barrel, and some of the very light lead loads listed may not do that. And yes, do not compress Trail Boss.

When I saw the thread title I was concerned.

Then I read the original post and... :banghead:

I bet you could make IMR 4064 to "cause" squibs in your .38 special loads too.

IMR is very, very, explicit in saying it is for lead bullets only.

You didn't notice you were not making any holes in the target until the third shot? Heck I didn't even know a snubnose barrel was long enough to hold three bullets....goes to show ya'.

Must have been quite the displacement of gases coming out the side of that cylinder!

Its simple, 2g got the bullet out of the barrel because a wadcutter seats deeper and increases the pressure, reducing the internal volume.

TB is used a lot for reduced rifle loads with lead and jacketed. As ArchAngelCD posted, it likes a case full.

It behaves poorly with plated or jacketed bullets in pistol calibers. It can work, but is very erratic in the way it responds. It is hard to work out a good load with it in pistol calibers with plated or jacketed. It just doesn't behave like other pistol powders.

I have shot a case full (to the base of the bullet) with 34/5 Gr jacketed bullets in .22 Hornet and it is accurate and fun.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

That was a load for wadcutters wasn't it? They take up a lot more room in the case. Do like the other guys say and increase your charge.

What you are trying to do with Train Boss just isn't right!!

If you want to use 3.7 grains of powder, buy a can of Bullseye.
I can assure you there will be no problems with ignition, or getting the bullets out of the barrel!

rc

For the past week I've been shooting the stuff. I'm fully aware it says it's for lead bullets, but there shouldnt be a problem getting the things out of the barrel.

As for what I'm doing that for,

playing with low recoil snub nose loads....
ruining good guns...
it's cold and gross outside, POO happens(least an astrix offend someone)...
stare at a loading press long enough and ya start getting those "hmm I wonder if I..." thoughts

and I've got a huge box of the things, and little boxes of lead...
Sorry reread. It was a snub. Friction would have been an issue with a longer barrel.

Using 38 Spl. brass out of my.357 mag Ruger Blackhawk.
3.7 gr. Trailboss: 158 gr. SWC, just an excellent small game load.

There were a couple of things that concerned me here:

Today I stopped when I realized my barrel was filled with three bullets.

out of that second 20rds I had to push a bullet from the barrel 4 times.

Kept shooting with bullets stuck in the bore??? Really???

I'm fully aware it says it's for lead bullets, but there shouldnt be a problem getting the things out of the barrel.

Manufacturer's guidelines completely disregarded???

Please also post which range you shoot at. This for the safety of others in C. Arkansas.

I wonder if maybe that Geoffc is just pulling our chain?

I shoot 158 gr lead over Trail Boss in .38 spl snubs. A litlle over 2000 rds thru a total of three guns. Nothing ever stuck. At 15 yds it is absolutely deadly on jack rabbits and soda cans. If I am using a 38 snub for CCW I step up to Buffalo Bore and I can probaly set some one on fire with the muzzle blast at that range. I have read a lot of folk who say a 38 is not enough for self defense, but like I said above, you can always set the bad guy on fire.

blindhari

Some people should NOT reload, period!!!:eek:

By the way, it's not an accurate statement to say that Trailboss is not safe with jacketed bullets:

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

IMR themselves state that TB is safe for use with ANY jacketed bullet in ANY rifle cartridge.

They also indirectly imply that the same formula for developing a load can be used for pistol rounds (though it's not specifically stated that jacketed pistol bullets are included)

Anyhow, I use TB in .204 Ruger and .17 Fireball rifle loads with great success, using jacketed bullets, following IMR's directions as posted.

it's cold and gross outside

That does not help with ignition.

Your problem, too light of a charge and too cold of a weather.

I use Trail Boss and like it for reduced loads. BUT I try to stay within guidelines set by the manufacturer. As I understand it most pistol cartridges have too small volume for a fast load with jacketed bullets so don't go there. If it would work well they would be singing praises about that as well.:D There are many other propellants that will do what you want with ease as well as having SAFE load data provided. Yes experimenting is fun but know the possible consequences of your mistakes before starting out. I just hate breaking one of my toys. :banghead:

By the way, it's not an accurate statement to say that Trailboss is not safe with jacketed bullets:

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

IMR themselves state that TB is safe for use with ANY jacketed bullet in ANY rifle cartridge.

They also indirectly imply that the same formula for developing a load can be used for pistol rounds (though it's not specifically stated that jacketed pistol bullets are included)



I e-mailed Hodgdon about using TB with jacketed bullets in my .460 X-Frame. The assured me it was safe, but cautioned me against going lower than 70% of case capacity. The cartridges shot fine and were acceptably accurate, but printed much different than my regular loads.

By the way, it's not an accurate statement to say that Trailboss is not safe with jacketed bullets:

It is unsafe in this particular circumstance, the thread that we are replying to.

I'm new to reloading, I admit. However, If I started loading into uncharted territory with no reputable load data and experienced problems, I would not blame the components. :scrutiny:

I think there is something else amiss here. 3.7 grains is within
the data suggested on Hodgdon's site. The fact that they are
jacketed should not, in and of itself, cause a squib load.

It could be that the powder is contaminated, bad primers, etc.

I have loaded thousands of rounds with Trailboss, all but a few
have been lead. I have loaded from starting loads to max loads,
and never had any ignition problems.

If I had the results posted by the OP, I would start over with
the max load for 125 grains. I know that sounds strange, but at
least that would determine if the powder is bad.

Another thought is loading with magnum primers. You may wish
to try some loads with the only change being to change to standard
small pistol primers.

Bullseye is a great powder for 38 special, and would be my choice
for reduced loads. The classic load is 2.8-3.0 grains of BE with
a wadcutter. You can also get some .360 round balls, drive them
through the revolver's throats to size and load with a light charge
of BE. Those are very soft shooting loads.