Uzi Mac10 reload question


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Snipe34
December 15, 2010, 01:21 PM
Seems to be the correct area of the forum, machineguns... I hope!

Living in the UK so no friendly gunshops to visit, and not sure if UK Armed Response or Special Forces would be happy answering any question, lol.

Also this question is to help me with a free game mod - neither I or anyone else involved derives any financial benefits - theMiasma.com - it's a hobby.

I've done a lot of research into the Uzi M10, watched videos but I can't get my head around the Uzi bolt open/closed. (btw in NZ/Australia I had a few rifles including a semi auto so I have a basic idea of bolt/gun mechanics.)

My question: on the M10 vids the bolt is pulled back to cock, but also opening the chamber (well the chamber looks open) then the M10 is fired. But obviously although the chamber looks open it can't be open - there must be something behind the cartridge. So well, I mean, the chamber outer panel is open, but must be something I can't see in front of the cartridge...

Thinking about it again, I did say "basic idea of bolt/gun mechanics" my semi auto rifle must have worked a similar way, the bolt was a couple of pieces. The more I think about it the stupider my question seems, but I just don't understand how it works.

Thanks for you patience, hope you can help. Posted pics 'left' with chamber open - I guess there's a dark piece of metal (with pin etc) that can't be seen in the vids, and that's the obvious answer, I guess... :o

So yeah, that's the answer but since I got this far, apart from calling me a dumb** if you have some more helpful details I'd appreciate that...

http://i52.tinypic.com/2gv6mo9.jpg uzi left
http://i56.tinypic.com/30u5o1x.jpg uzi right

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1KPerDay
December 15, 2010, 01:26 PM
The UZI and the M10 or Mac-10 are different weapons built in different countries. The UZI is made in Israel, while the Mac 10 and variants are made in the USA. The game is wrong. The weapon pictured is the Mac 10 9mm, or something close to one.

In full-auto versions, the bolt is retracted to the rear and remains to the rear. When you pull the trigger, the bolt is released, travels forward, strips a cartridge from the magazine, chambers the cartridge, fires the cartridge as the fixed firing pin in the bolt strikes the primer, and ejects the fired casing.

If the trigger is held to the rear, the bolt is free to move forward again and the process repeats until the operator releases pressure on the trigger (at which point the bolt is locked to the rear) or the magazine expends all of its cartridges, at which point the bolt remains fully forward.

The full auto UZIs work in the same way, unless they started life as a closed-bolt semi-auto version and were modified.

But don't put UZI M10 on that weapon if you want to look like you know what you're doing. :)

Here's a pic of an UZI fyi
http://nonstopweapons.webs.com/IMG_5113_1.jpg

1KPerDay
December 15, 2010, 01:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbJLYcLJDtA&feature=related

fyi you can see the process in this vid... pay no attention to the audio track. :D

The variant in the vid is an M11/9mm by the way. A bit smaller than the Mac 10, not as small as the Mac 11 in .380.

Trebor
December 15, 2010, 03:54 PM
What 1kPerDay said.

The UZI and Mac 10 are two completely different SMG's.

They both use an open bolt design, but one is not a "variant" of the others.

The thing with open bolt guns is that the bolt is (almost) always open. You load it by pulling the bolt back until it's locked to the rear and then inserting a loaded mag and it stays that way until you fire. When you fire the bolt moves forward quickly, pushes a round into the chamber, fires it, and then the bolt moves back to the "open" position again. If you keep the trigger depressed it will continue this cycle until the gun runs out of ammo or you let go of the trigger.

There is nothing blocking the ejection port when the bolt is open. There is no need. The chamber is empty and the round that will be fired is actually the top round in the magazine.

If you do let go of the trigger before the mag is empty the bolt will stop at the "open" portion of the cycle. If you fire until the mag is empty the bolt will wind up in the closed position when the mag is empty. (It will have gone forward to load the non-existent round after firing the last round and will stay forward as there is not another round to fire to continue the cycle).

There are other open bolt SMG's, including the MP 40, STEN, U.S. Grease gun, etc. The HK MP 5 is a closed bolt SMG and operates more like firearms you are used to.

Snipe34
December 15, 2010, 04:34 PM
Thank you!

Ok, first I need to take off the name Uzi, and it's just Mac-10. Changing the model is too much work. Besides, I like that shape - true Uzi doesn't appeal to me, darn it.

In the vid (music's ok :D) I could see the rounds, so outer panel is back (open).

Nice, because I spend time making and drawing pics of bullets. With the Mac -10 they are finally going to be seen. That is because I'll make dual (nearly said Uzis) Mac-10s, so with the left gun, the player can see into the chamber and notice the process, maybe... Right side of the weapon needs a lot more prettying.

You also said: "If the trigger is held to the rear, the bolt is free to move forward again and the process repeats until the operator releases pressure on the trigger (at which point the bolt is locked to the rear) or the magazine expends all of its cartridges, at which point the bolt remains fully forward."

I wasn't sure about that before before either: *bolt remains fully forward* so all round your explanation has helped me greatly. Because Glock 17 semi, I learned, the slider remains open -or back- after rounds expended.

Small but important details. Thanks for your help, guess I owe you one!

Edit: ok Trebor you say: (and also refining my concept of the auto function) "There are other open bolt SMG's, including the MP 40, STEN, U.S. Grease gun, etc. The HK MP 5 is a closed bolt SMG and operates more like firearms you are used to."

*more like firearms you are used to* yep, so true of me. 'Open bolt' something totally new I've learned, and "Mac-10 stays open mid-fire."

But man you guys are great - clarified the whole deal.

Owe you too, Trebor, thanks again!

Gord
December 15, 2010, 04:45 PM
Most handguns - especially full-sized or "service" handguns like the G17 - will lock the slide back when empty, but this may or may not be reflected in all games because it necessitates an additional animation.

And, yeah, a lot of SMGs fire from an open bolt and are therefore referred to as open-bolt guns.

UT2K4? Blast from the past. Did Epic ever give in to popular support and patch the Enforcers in? ;)

Snipe34
December 15, 2010, 05:04 PM
UTk4

Thanks for clarification on 'open-bolt,' it's all helpful and my previous knowledge with bolt, and semi-auto seems a little pathetic, but meh, most Europeans struggle understanding there's a difference between single, semi and auto.

Yeah hobby, mod of a mod so we're patching :eek: some good, some not so.

As you suspect, reload/fire anim is a problem with the G17. On 'reload' the anim of the slider is magically back, open ^^

But between you and me, thanks for confirming G17's silde remains open after fire :)

goon
December 15, 2010, 05:47 PM
FWIW, a great many machine guns (meaning belt fed) also fire from the open bolt position.

DoubleTapDrew
December 15, 2010, 06:57 PM
If you want to see an animation of how the open bolt guns fire go to: http://science.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun6.htm
The animation is a Thompson SMG but the principle is the same on all open bolt machine guns. Hold the trigger down on the animation and it shows how it cycles.

Snipe34
December 15, 2010, 09:17 PM
Thanks guys! Bit nervous posting at first, although I had registered here a little while back. I put off posting, muddling around elsewhere online looking for answers.
You made it real easy - I ask a couple of questions and suddenly I got links, descriptions, everything.

Fwiw! Coincidentally I was looking at the 1919 thread as well, also open-bolt, good, I know that now.

Could have gone for the M60 but I just love the 1919. DisneyLand, meh, next time I'm in the US I'm gone to a firing range. I miss that powder smell, the gun warming, sigh... Is my memory right, my guns used to sweat - perspire? The 15 shot semi I'm guessing, I put some rounds through that.

Did I say, I much appreciate all your help!

http://i51.tinypic.com/n2yfwp.jpg Browning 1919 And I hope the details are correct! Larger air-holes in the barrel cowl probably - btw in-game they are actually holes.

Sam1911
December 15, 2010, 11:29 PM
DisneyLand, meh, next time I'm in the US I'm gone to a firing range.

Just make sure you check the schedule and get yourself to Kentucky in October.

http://www.machinegunshoot.com/machine_gun_shoot.html

http://www.machinegunshoot.com/media_center.html#videos

Once might be enough (especially if you hang out for three straight days...whew) but there's nothing quite so viscerally demonstrative of the enjoyment of arms than a festival devoted to private citizens showing off their machine guns (... and cannons, howitzers, flame-throwers, etc.) :cool:

Snipe34
December 16, 2010, 05:18 PM
Sam dude, dude, dude, please!! I stare at my pathetic gun models on screen and sigh. Kentucky in October, yep, it's just left of heaven.
Tell you what, my heart will be there.

srv656s
January 25, 2011, 02:33 PM
For a minute I thought this thread was about machineguns like mine...

Mac 10 with Uzi conversion (grip to take Uzi mags):
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/srv656s/Mac-with-stock-closed.jpg

With Lage upper:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/srv656s/MacwithMaxfolded.jpg

Me shooting it:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/srv656s/IMG_7047.jpg

Sam1911
January 25, 2011, 03:33 PM
You know, in that last picture... you're printing badly! Someone might notice that you're armed!




... ;) :D

Girodin
January 25, 2011, 03:34 PM
Uzi

http://www.bullethole.com/images/uzi.jpg

Mac 10

http://www.farcry2.cz/czech_menu/informace/zbrane-img/mac-10.jpg

They do look similar and are often mistaken for one another by people who are not real into guns.

How do you like that Lage upper? I am interested in acquiring a Mac and then the Lage slow fire upper.

srv656s
January 25, 2011, 04:39 PM
The Lage upper is a must. It's the entire reason I bought the gun really. I can accurately shoot on full auto with it. I've got a youtube video of me shooting with it around here somewhere, will post later.

The macs are great because of all the goodies you can get. Mine is currently with Sam @ Practical Solutions and is being fitted for a .22LR upper.

He sent a picture of it before he put the rail on and parkerized it... can't wait...
http://i.imgur.com/LaGMD.jpg

Girodin
January 26, 2011, 03:02 AM
The possibility of shooting .22LR is what makes me want to get one. I think this might be my next big purchase. I'm also really wanting an Arctic Warfare though. I need to educate my self a bit more concerning macs so I know what I'm doing if I decide to buy one.

Snipe34
March 26, 2011, 01:46 AM
Finally at long last, a short video of the Mac M10 (that you kind people helped to create!!) in action in the game!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kaZC6E-l2I

1KPerDay
March 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
Cool. Looks like you got the reload down just right. :) That's a heck of a long magazine. Wish I had one.

Snipe34
March 26, 2011, 09:09 PM
Thx 1kPerDay! 50 shot mag, yeah well you know the zombie apocalypse, er, may require soldiers with real strong reload thumbs for reloading 50 round mags :)

Friend is currently working on fixing the .30 Browning code!

Thanks indeed for all your help -you who know- in this project!

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