bayonet and light on tactical shotgun


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jacklucas89
December 15, 2010, 01:25 PM
is it possible to mount a bayonet and light on a tactical shotgun.....I have chosen mossberg over wilson and nighthawk becuase apparantly the marines use them in combat....

any suggestions?

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Floppy_D
December 15, 2010, 01:40 PM
I gotta ask... for what? A light I get... but a bayonet? It would be so front heavy you couldn't get a decent swing with it. If you were to invest the cost of a bayonet and mount into clays and shells and practice with it, you'd have a useful weapon that you were proficient with. If you had done that practicing first, you wouldn't be wondering about how to add more weight to the front of your gun.

Just because the Marines carry Mossbergs doesn't mean they are better, it means Mossberg won a contract. Find a shotgun that fits you, practice with it, and then see what else it needs. You'll save yourself some trouble that way. :)

If you type "Mossberg Bayonet" into google, you get this link (http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/mossberg/715-mossberg-590-bayonet.html), which answers your question.

Rshooter
December 15, 2010, 01:51 PM
IMHO a bayonet on a HD shotgun is a bad idea. If you shot someone breaking into your home that would be one thing but bayoneting them would most likely get you into trouble you do not want. Even the presence of the bayonet might be enough for a prosecuting attorney to get you into trouble.

jacklucas89
December 15, 2010, 02:08 PM
man I had never thought about the weight...

highorder
December 15, 2010, 02:11 PM
man I had never thought about the weight...

The same thing is probably said by folks that want the longest magazine extension they can find... Once they have 9 rounds of 00 buck in their gun, then wonder why it's too nose heavy to shoulder.

Buy a simple shotgun.
Shoot thousands of shells.

Practice beats bolt-on crap every time.

Floppy_D
December 15, 2010, 04:01 PM
The deadliest shotgun in the world is a bone-stock pump in the hands of an old fart who's used it to bust clays on Sundays for the last several decades. The old geezers with the beat-up 870s who offer to bet $1 a bird on the skeet range... that's who you gotta look out for.

Good luck with your Mossberg, they're fine shotguns. Let us know when you get it out to the range... and welcome to The High Road!

Cosmoline
December 15, 2010, 04:08 PM
It would have a practical use in dissuading attack, I think. The precursers to the combat shotguns were the blunderbus, and a number of these came with spring-loaded bayonets. I doubt anyone ever actually used the things, but they would have added a certain emphasis to the already enormous bore facing you. The idea, particularly with a flintlock single shot, was to persuade the highwayman to stand off. The same principle applies today, and if you can scare the intruder enough to end the attack you've won the day in the best way possible.

BP Hunter
December 15, 2010, 06:15 PM
The reason why home defense shotguns have short 18.5" barrels is to make them more mangaebale in tight areas like your hallway, bedroom, etc. Adding an extra 1 foot long bayonet will defeat the shotgun's purpose. Besides, if you had a shotgun, will you not shoot the perp rather than stabbing him?

CoRoMo
December 15, 2010, 06:50 PM
After checking on that bump in the night, you could spread your peanut butter on some bread, without setting the gun down. I like to have a snack on my way back to bed.

BullfrogKen
December 15, 2010, 07:18 PM
OK, pardon me but I must ask . . .


Why do you feel the need for a bayonet?


Have you even had any bayonet training?

jacklucas89
December 15, 2010, 08:44 PM
none formally...to be honest that's the reason I am enlisting the help of experts on sites like this to get feedback....

BullfrogKen
December 15, 2010, 08:52 PM
OK. Then stop worrying over how to mount both your flashlight and your bayonet. You don't gets point for looking cool sporting gear you have no idea how to use.


Spend the money on ammunition.

hso
December 15, 2010, 09:27 PM
If you can't think of a realistic reason to put a bayonet on a shotgun then you almost certainly don't need it.

A flashlight is a probably one of the best accessories for any weapon that will be used where light is low since it allows you to meet one of the fundamental rules, identify your target.

Before a penny is spent on any accessory money should be spent on training with the weapon to make it useful. Ammunition, videos, range time, courses all make you a better shooter than adding to the weight of what becomes essentially a dust catcher if it isn't used.

BP Hunter
December 15, 2010, 09:49 PM
After checking on that bump in the night, you could spread your peanut butter on some bread, without setting the gun down. I like to have a snack on my way back to bed.

Oh man! You crack me up!!:D:D

A flashlight will do.

arizona98tj
December 16, 2010, 12:56 AM
The deadliest shotgun in the world is a bone-stock pump in the hands of an old fart who's used it to bust clays on Sundays for the last several decades. The old geezers with the beat-up 870s who offer to bet $1 a bird on the skeet range... that's who you gotta look out for.

Can't argue with that. Some 30+ years ago, when I was in the service, I belonged to a local gun club in Virginia. I primarily shot rifle and pistol. Several times a year I managed to swing by the clubhouse and shoot a round or two of skeet.

During that time, I also worked part time for several years at a gun shop. This was one of my Saturday evening gunsmith projects. It still is holding together, after all this time.

Some of those old geezers didn't always have the best sense of humor. Perhaps it was because I didn't have one of those little pads on the end of my shoe where I could rest my shotgun between shots. I usually just "stuck" mine in the lawn until it was my turn to shoot. :D

http://www.stu-offroad.com/temp/bayonet-1.jpg

Sergeant Sabre
December 16, 2010, 02:14 AM
Bayonet and light on tactical shotgun?

That question makes me think of a thread I found while researching the Mossberg 930. The thread was a Mossberg 930 "review". I found it not to be so much of a review, as a post with pictures of a 930. Every so often the poster would put up more pics showing the new accessory he bought and added to the shotgun. Side-saddles, barrel-length rails, lights, fancy slings, optics, and recoil reducers appeared. Sadly, no pictures of range sessions or any actual shooting.

tactikel
December 16, 2010, 10:35 PM
I really understand the light - you absolutely cannot shoot without identifiying your threat (neighbor, brother-in-law, daughters boyfriend?-armed assailant?). The bayonet is illegal in many states, and will get you crucified in court if you ever use it.

GCBurner
December 16, 2010, 11:31 PM
The Army put a bayonet mount and a heat shield on the Winchester 97 for trench warfare in WWI. Take a look at the picture of one with the 16" bayonet, and try to imagine swinging one around inside.
http://www.olive-drab.com/od_other_firearms_shotgun_m97.php

A small, lightweight and bright light, so you can identify your target, is not a bad idea, though.

Cosmoline
December 17, 2010, 01:30 AM
The bayonet is illegal in many states, and will get you crucified in court if you ever use it.

In what states are bayonets illegal to have on a shotgun in your home? Also, how would it "crucify" you in court?

Girodin
December 17, 2010, 02:54 AM
The deadliest shotgun in the world is a bone-stock pump in the hands of an old fart who's used it to bust clays on Sundays for the last several decades.

I'd take a purpose built fighting gun in the hands of someone who is well trained to use it for that purpose.

zhyla
December 17, 2010, 04:31 AM
I'd take a purpose built fighting gun in the hands of someone who is well trained to use it for that purpose.

I think "purpose built fighting gun" just means "all black" in the context of shotguns.

At the point a bayonet comes in handy I'd rather drop the gun and pull out a knife. Swinging 7 lbs of shotgun doesn't sound very wieldly.

NoobCannon
December 17, 2010, 10:47 AM
Bayonet on a shotgun sounds cool....for a wall-piece. Trust me, I'd love nothing more than an M1897 Trench Broom with the foot-and-a-half knife on the end, but its about as useful as...well...

Ever see those little bayonets they make for handguns? If not, just google it.

Looking cool and practicality sometimes go down seperate roads. If you wanna look intimidating against a home invader, trust me, you're already there. Nothing much more intimidating than a big, bad 12-Gauge.

Creature
December 17, 2010, 10:52 AM
Okay...now that everyone has weighed in on the practicality and why NOT to put a bayonet on a shotgun, how about we focus on answering the OP's question.

highorder
December 17, 2010, 11:03 AM
The OP's question:

is it possible to mount a bayonet and light on a tactical shotgun...

any suggestions?

Answer:

Yes. (and plenty of suggestions.)

Thread?

Sam1911
December 17, 2010, 11:16 AM
how about we focus on answering the OP's question.

I like to think we offer something here that's a bit beyond the bare transfer of information. Experience, comprehension, and understanding of the concepts involved in the use of a weapon that goes beyond the simplistic, material, answer of a question.

While we certainly will not allow folks to denigrate someone for asking a question, I think it is only doing our due diligence to take the answer one short step further to explore the practical ramifications of that answer.

A simple "yes" is a factual answer. But, unless you're looking to get a giggle out of the OP behind his back, it isn't a complete answer.

Rshooter
December 17, 2010, 12:47 PM
I have to go with Sam on this one. While we could go with a yes answer and instructions does this really help someone new to the board. God forbid someone ever used such a shotgun. Here is where I should insert the plug to read In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob.

zhyla
December 17, 2010, 12:48 PM
Okay...now that everyone has weighed in on the practicality and why NOT to put a bayonet on a shotgun, how about we focus on answering the OP's question.

If you've got to do it because... you may need to roast marshamallows on your shotgun... and assuming you haven't purchased the Mossberg already:

1. Get a 590 or 590A1 that has a bayonet lug. Well that's half the battle. Even though the 590's have them I've heard rumors that you need the thicker barrel of the 590A1 to be strong enough for bayoneting.

2. Get a tube clamp or similar sort of rail thingy to mount your flashlight to. Heck, get the kind with three rails. You're probably going to need a laser on this gun too.

Hurt Lunchbox
December 17, 2010, 08:54 PM
Shame on all of you who castigated the fella! (insert witty/pithy joke here) Why, that's one of life's simpler pleasures; putting something sharp and pokey on the end of something that goes *BANG*.
Putting all legal questions and tactical ramifications aside, the Model 1897 Trench gun or the Mossberg 590A1 would fit the bill. One cautionary note - if you would think about a "poka-poka" end on the shotgun, the stock had better be suited. I have a 590A1 and currently have a Knoxx stock on it. Unfortunately, it does not lend itself well to the bayonet manual of arms. Keep that in mind. I do have a light mount (a TL-2) and it works beautifully, just grrr down on the holder.

P.B.Walsh
December 17, 2010, 09:18 PM
I will add to Hunt, that it'd probally be better with a solid, fixed stock, instead of an AR-15 style stock.

arizona98tj
December 17, 2010, 11:00 PM
A wooden stock works well on mine.

http://www.stu-offroad.com/temp/savage12-3.jpg

tactikel
December 17, 2010, 11:08 PM
Cosmoline, New York state bans the civilian posession of a bayonet attached to a firearm, as does Cook Co. Ill.. I live near Chicago, I promise you if you bayonetted an intruder you would be on the front page of the Chicago Tribune, labeled as a bloodthirsty killer, and would be the target of a lawsuit by the family of the decedent. Sorry, that is state of my State (Ill).:banghead:
BTW my CQC backup is a .45acp

Hurt Lunchbox
December 17, 2010, 11:16 PM
Wow....guess it sorta lends creedence to "vote with your feet"....AZ98TJ - I like the way wooden stocks look (although I think those are standard on yours, dunno for sure)...I'm looking for wooden stocks for mine.

Cosmoline
December 17, 2010, 11:30 PM
Cosmoline, New York state bans the civilian posession of a bayonet attached to a firearm, as does Cook Co. Ill.. I live near Chicago, I promise you if you bayonetted an intruder you would be on the front page of the Chicago Tribune, labeled as a bloodthirsty killer

Are you certain NY law is not addressing bayonet *lugs* as part of a state AWB? I have never heard of a law banning the fixing of bayonets on firearms. Indeed, such a law would make life rather tricky even for the reenactors.

Chicago is of course it's own hell hole, but I would not suggest the bayonet for stabbing. It's prime purpose would be to add emphasis to the large barrel and encourage an expeditious retreat.

JShirley
December 17, 2010, 11:56 PM
Yeah...I put virtually no stock in the "intimidation" school- IOW, I think it's for posers and internet commandos. This holds true for knives or firearms.

When I'm not securing a military base or acting in a military role, I only plan on pointing firearms at deadly threats. If they are a deadly threat, as soon as my weapon is on target, I'm stroking the trigger- and I really don't give a damn whether the threat finds my weapon intimidating in the instant before they cease being threatening or take lethal force.

John

Dave McCracken
December 18, 2010, 12:24 AM
A good reason for not using a bayonet on a shotgun.

Zero with your slug of choice.

Mount bayonet and pitchfork a haybale a couple times.

Check Zero.

Cuss.


Few if any shotgun barrels have enough metal in them to NOT bend under the weight and with adrenaline surge.

Avenger29
December 18, 2010, 01:04 AM
is it possible to mount a bayonet and light on a tactical shotgun.....I have chosen mossberg over wilson and nighthawk becuase apparantly the marines use them in combat....

any suggestions?

Light (and low light training) BIG YES, bayonet, no, and that statement shows that you are rather unfamiliar with Wilson and Nighthawk shotguns and Mossbergs, so let me break it down for you...

The Mossberg 590 pump and the Benelli M4 autoloaders are two shotguns that the Marines use. That does not make the Mossberg 590 better than the Nighthawk or Wilson, it's just what the Marines happen to use. Wilson and Nighthawk base their shotguns off the Remington 870, which is just as worthy as the Mossberg 590 and also very durable and reliable...the 590 and 870 are solid as it gets, pick the one you like (they have different locations of safety, slide release, and the loading gates are different- Rem stays down, pushed down by spring, Mossberg loading gate stays up in the receiver)

Nighthawk and Wilson do a some customizing on the 870s they sell, and you can read about what each does on their websites or you can give them a call. A lot of shotgun "customizing" is work you can do on your own, though, so keep that in mind. It's pretty simple.


I don't care if you attach a bayonet to your shotgun for the hell of it for pics and range trips (and yes, you can get bayonet lugs for the Rem 870), but using one for HD is an incredibly bad idea.

Don't go half-assed on the light. Buy a good Surefire or Streamlight (the Surefire G2Led is a well priced option) and mount it so you can use the tailcap to activate it.

Geronimo45
December 18, 2010, 01:23 AM
I heard an interesting story a while back, about an old vet - WWII, Korea, Vietnam - don't know which. His notion of using the bayonet was stabbing a guy then putting a magazine into him. No misses that way.

Leanwolf
December 18, 2010, 01:55 AM
Years ago when I was in the Army stationed at Fort Chaffee, Arkansas, we were going through bayonet training... three days of it, if I recall. That bayonet was attached to the barrel of my M1 Garand. Talk about heavy...! Drudgery is an apt word for it.

One night in our barracks as we were cleaning rifles, polishing boots and brass, etc., etc., our Platoon Sergeant. a career soldier, came in and talked with several of us as we did our Army "chores."

I asked him, "Sgt. Moore, do you really think we need all this bayonet training stuff?"

Sgt. Moore had the CIB from both WW II (Europe), and Korea, and had been wounded four times. He said, "Well, the United States Army says you're gonna have bayonet training so you're gonna have bayonet training." Then he got the very faintest smile on his lips and added. "As for me, when those mother forkers got close enough for me to stick 'em, I shot 'em."

Always seemed like a plan to me. :D

L.W.

Black Butte
December 18, 2010, 02:30 AM
Even if there is no tactical benefit, there is nothing wrong with wanting a bayonet lug on your shotgun simply for the coolness of it. The fact that lugged long guns causes many liberals to suffer run-in-place tantrums is reason enough to own one in my humble opinion.

Black Butte
December 18, 2010, 02:41 AM
Jacklucas89, the Mossberg 590A1 is an excellent choice, having been beefed-up to meet military specifications. Click the link below to see a demonstration of the proper way to assault produce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOPuEuJx1MY

tactikel
December 18, 2010, 07:21 AM
Cosmoline, You are right about Chicago, and the lug being part of the AWB. Mea Culpa!

ArmedLiberal
December 18, 2010, 08:29 AM
My Mossberg 590 comes with a bayonet lug that accepts M16 type bayonets. Mine lives with it's bayonet on and it works just fine. It does not noticeably add to the weight of the gun or make it awkward to move in any way.

I'm not sure how this arrangement would work in every possible tactical situation but it's real sharp and that bayonet will certainly do some damage to anyone who comes in contact with it.

Mostly I use it cause I like it.


I have issues with mounted flashlights because they require pointing the gun at an unknown target in order to use the light. I make every effort to never point my guns at anything but a known target that I'm certain I want to shoot.

Carl N. Brown
December 18, 2010, 09:15 AM
What I have heard is that trench guns with fixed bayonets were more credible weapons for guarding prisoners in WWII because a prisoner who thought you might not shoot him would likely believe you would not be above poking him if he got out of line. And shotguns really intimidate groups of people if it does come to shooting.

My defensive use of a shotgun would be indoors, where a bayonet would be a obstacle to moving about the house.

Avenger29
December 18, 2010, 05:35 PM
I have issues with mounted flashlights because they require pointing the gun at an unknown target in order to use the light.

No, they don't.

bushmaster1313
December 18, 2010, 11:33 PM
The deadliest shotgun in the world is a bone-stock pump in the hands of an old fart who's used it to bust clays on Sundays for the last several decades.

But if the bad guy target is not moving won't the old guy used to busting clays by leading them a bit be too far out in front? :D

Girodin
December 19, 2010, 01:40 AM
I think "purpose built fighting gun" just means "all black" in the context of shotguns.

Maybe that is the case for you, but certainly not for those who understand how they will be using their gun and set it up for use according to their needs, preferences, and the way they run their guns.

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 03:00 AM
No, they don't.


Please illuminate me. Do you have a pivot on your flashlight mount?

JShirley
December 19, 2010, 05:17 AM
There are two characteristics to consider, flood and throw. Any light worth mounting will have a reasonably wide beam (flood) while still throwing the beam far enough to be useful.

Keeping the weapon safely and correctly at a low ready, correctly pointed in front of you (hopefully it's already obvious how important getting some decent training is), activating the light will throw a wide enough beam to see if anyone inside a regular household-sized room is a threat- without ever covering them with the muzzle of your weapon. The only time this will not be true, is if the potential threat is so close that your light beam has not had time to expand. If this is the case, you have no clue how to clear a room, because you have moved into a position right next to a blind spot, close enough to have your weapon grabbed and deny you the main advantage of a firearm (distance).

Training and experience- get 'em.

John

Pete D.
December 19, 2010, 08:16 AM
Quote:
man I had never thought about the weight...
The same thing is probably said by folks that want the longest magazine extension they can find... Once they have 9 rounds of 00 buck in their gun, then wonder why it's too nose heavy to shoulder.

Buy a simple shotgun.
Shoot thousands of shells.

Practice beats bolt-on crap every time.

Great post.
About answers......if someone asks a yes or no question and you give either one of the two possible answers, you have given a complete answer to the question.
The fact that you or I may have a more complete knowledge of a subject may lead us to add information or to ask for a qualification or a more specific question but if a person asks "can I put a bayonet on a shotgun?" there are only two possible answers. Anything else is the answer to a question that maybe should be asked in addition to the primary.
I sit frequently sit in discussions in which I will ask a yes/no question and then am answered lengthy explanations which I do not need and did not ask for. First, I want yes or no. After that, I may have other questions. ("Is there a downside to this idea? Is this legal for me to do? Is this cost effective?", etc.)
Pete

Sam1911
December 19, 2010, 11:21 AM
("Is there a downside to this idea? Is this legal for me to do? Is this cost effective?", etc.)Well... one of those three would be utterly absurd -- even unethical -- NOT to answer as an immediate follow-up to your "complete" answer.

"Hey, can I cut down the barrel of my Mossberg to 14"? Answer: Yes!

Now if someone gave that "complete" answer and did not follow it up with the rest of the "fluff" the OP "did not need and did not ask for" (in your words) -- e.g.: doing so without proper paperwork will get you 10 years in jail -- I'd probably issue them an infraction for giving legally misleading advice.

As to the rest of it -- will this modification be cost-effective, or practical -- that is our prerogative, as peers giving freely of their advice and experience, to volunteer.

The cool thing about a forum like this is, as long as you are polite about your responses, you are utterly free to accept, discard, or not even read all that other volunteered information.

JNewell
December 19, 2010, 11:30 AM
Bayonets and shotguns, outside (and maybe even inside) the military supply environment strike me as useless at best. First, you completely change the length (not to mention weight and balance) of the gun, totally negating any benefit from the shorter barrel. Second, if you stick or foul something with the bayonet, there's a good chance you're going to damage the gun. Very few shotguns would make it through a real bayonet exercise without at least a misoriented barrel, maybe worse.

If some young GI manages to bend or break a shotgun, there's a supply chain to put another one in his hands (if his SGT has left either one intact ;) ). That's not necessarily true for the average gunowner.

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 12:19 PM
There are two characteristics to consider, flood and throw. Any light worth mounting will have a reasonably wide beam (flood) while still throwing the beam far enough to be useful.

Keeping the weapon safely and correctly at a low ready, correctly pointed in front of you (hopefully it's already obvious how important getting some decent training is), activating the light will throw a wide enough beam to see if anyone inside a regular household-sized room is a threat- without ever covering them with the muzzle of your weapon. The only time this will not be true, is if the potential threat is so close that your light beam has not had time to expand. If this is the case, you have no clue how to clear a room, because you have moved into a position right next to a blind spot, close enough to have your weapon grabbed and deny you the main advantage of a firearm (distance).

Training and experience- get 'em.

John

Wouldn't it be simpler to just turn on the living room light?


Also, I'm figuring that that bayonet is going to go a long way towards making up for my tactical ignorance. Unless of course my house is invaded by Ninja's or Chuck Norris, in which case my tactical goose is well and truly cooked even if I did have 18 classes and certificates from Front Sight.


Also, it's a well known statistic that at least 94% of home invaders are not willing to grab a shotgun held by a hostile homeowner under any circumstances.

Sergeant Sabre
December 19, 2010, 12:22 PM
I have issues with mounted flashlights because they require pointing the gun at an unknown target in order to use the light.

Would some friendly stranger enter your home at night? Makes perfect sense to me to cover them with the muzzle while you evaluate their intentions.

Also, just because you have a weapon light, doesn't mean you must use it. You can still use a hand-held light to identify whatever "unknown" targets enter your house at night. The weapon light is just another tool in the bag.

au01st
December 19, 2010, 12:31 PM
Wouldn't it be simpler to just turn on the living room light?


Also, it's a well known statistic that at least 94% of home invaders are not willing to grab a shotgun held by a hostile homeowner under any circumstances.


The light switch for my living room is on the opposite side of the entrance from my bedroom, so that is no good for me.


Where did that 94% stat come from? Not arguing, just curious.

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 12:35 PM
Would some friendly stranger enter your home at night? Makes perfect sense to me to cover them with the muzzle while you evaluate their intentions.

Also, just because you have a weapon light, doesn't mean you must use it. You can still use a hand-held light to identify whatever "unknown" targets enter your house at night. The weapon light is just another tool in the bag.
Are you saying you cannot imagine any way that someone you would not want to shoot might come to be in your living room.

OK, how's this? My son has a terrible fight with his girlfriend of 8 years, goes to a bar and gets stupid drunk. (He has very little experience drinking). At three in the morning he drives to my house thinking that he can break in and sleep on my couch cause he doesn't want to wake me. (Remember I said Stupid drunk) I wake up to a lamp breaking in the living room and grab my shotgun.

Do I turn on the living room light? Do I call out "Who's there?" Do I fire up my tactical flashlight and point it and my shotgun muzzle at the unknown shadow in my living room?


This is a wonderful argument, we could go on for days and I can see some of the advantages of the tactical shotgun flashlight. I choose not to have one.

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 12:37 PM
The light switch for my living room is on the opposite side of the entrance from my bedroom, so that is no good for me.


Where did that 94% stat come from? Not arguing, just curious.
Haven't you heard that 68% of all statistics quoted in internet arguments are made up on the spot?

2WheelsGood
December 19, 2010, 01:40 PM
Do I fire up my tactical flashlight and point it and my shotgun muzzle at the unknown shadow in my living room?
Couldn't you have one mounted to the gun AND one in your hand? When you realize it's not your drunk son, what do you do? Hold the light with one hand and the shotgun with the other? It would make more sense to drop the light so you could still use two hands on the shotgun at which point having one on the gun could be a lifesaver.

If you can't tell, I'm always looking for reasons to buy new flashlights. :)

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 03:44 PM
I had an idea the last time this sort of thread popped up.

Imagine a flashlight ball, you could roll it down the hall or across a room and it would illuminate in all directions. A twenty sided solid, like a D20 dice, an Icosahedron with a flashlight in each face. Make it about 3" diameter, include a position sensor inside with a bit of microchip to turn it on when it stops rolling, toss about four of them into your living room and bingo! Your bad guy is illuminated.

JShirley
December 19, 2010, 05:44 PM
The US Army recently has only used bayonet training for aggression training. Which is why every attack was coupled with KILL!.

It makes sense to always ID potential threats. Which is why mounted lights are a good idea on HD firearms.

Sergeant Sabre
December 19, 2010, 06:32 PM
Do I fire up my tactical flashlight and point it and my shotgun muzzle at the unknown shadow in my living room?

I would. Then I would see it was my son and put it down.

Then I would wonder why my three year-old son was drinking and how he got ahold of the car. How did he even reach the pedals? And who in the world is this girlfriend he had an argument with? He's only three, for goodness sake, he shouldn't even like girls yet...

Girodin
December 19, 2010, 07:53 PM
This is a wonderful argument, we could go on for days and I can see some of the advantages of the tactical shotgun flashlight. I choose not to have one.

You have opined at length. What training do you have in the defensive use of shotguns (or firearms generally), lights, room clearing, etc? Thanks.

JNewell
December 19, 2010, 08:30 PM
Also, I'm figuring that that bayonet is going to go a long way towards making up for my tactical ignorance.

Can you explain that? I have always been taught that good training can make up for bad equipment, but that no amount of the best equipment makes up for inadequate training. My trainers may have been wrong but they all thought and taught the same basic principles, of which this was at or near the top.

BullfrogKen
December 19, 2010, 08:34 PM
^^^

Agreed.

zhyla
December 19, 2010, 08:39 PM
I had an idea the last time this sort of thread popped up.

Imagine a flashlight ball, you could roll it down the hall or across a room and it would illuminate in all directions. A twenty sided solid, like a D20 dice, an Icosahedron with a flashlight in each face. Make it about 3" diameter, include a position sensor inside with a bit of microchip to turn it on when it stops rolling, toss about four of them into your living room and bingo! Your bad guy is illuminated.

I had the same idea not long ago. I called it a light grenade. Might be worth trying out. The less-ninja of us can just flip on a light.

au01st
December 19, 2010, 08:40 PM
en't you heard that 68% of all statistics quoted in internet arguments are made up on the spot?

Quite aware, but I'm still new around here and still not sure who the witty folks are, yet.

JShirley
December 19, 2010, 08:48 PM
This has probably already been pointed out, but a bayonet will add length. Greater OAL when manuevering through a house is a disadvantage.

Pros for adding a bayonet for HD: looks cool (to some).

Cons: adds weight and length, dubious legality.

Lights are a more involved question. Yes, it's better to have lights in the area than use a weapon light for illumination, but there can be power outages/attacks and sundry other issues. Since I've actually taken the time to practice a little instead of just arguing about it online, I know I can use a weapon light to see if someone across a medium or larger room is holding a weapon without ever covering them with the muzzle.

evan price
December 19, 2010, 08:54 PM
The precursers to the combat shotguns were the blunderbus, and a number of these came with spring-loaded bayonets. I doubt anyone ever actually used the things, but they would have added a certain emphasis to the already enormous bore facing you.

The blunderbus was typically a single shot, black powder, muzzle loading firearm. You only got one shot. What you would do is blast whomever was first in line and then go hands-on for the next one. That's what the spring-loaded bayo was for on that gun.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evr_tP9cJWY

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 08:56 PM
Yes Girodin, it's true I have opined. Here in this thread and many other places too. Opining is one of my favorite things actually.

My shotgun training consists primarily of shooting Diet Pepsi cans flying through the air in the Nevada desert with my trusty Mossberg and cheap bird shot. Sometimes I shoot them on the ground after I've missed. A couple of times I've shot large pieces of paper at an indoor range to see how much buckshot spreads.

I have had no personal instruction in room clearing, etc., but I am highly proficient at turning on flashlights and using them to light up things in the dark. My initial flashlight training was while camping with the Boy Scouts almost forty years ago. We called it "flashlight tag."

No one has ever shot at me, and I've never contemplated shooting someone. Once around the age of twenty or so I had two cops point shotguns at me from about ten feet away while shouting, "Don't move!!" I didn't move and they arrested me for riding a freight train without paying the railroad for the fare. I thought they were pretty reasonable and professional about it, they were searching for a couple of cop shooters. I have felt in more danger being swept at the firing range than from those two cops with their shotguns locked on my head.

I had the rules of firearm safety explained to me by my father at about the age of 8. I believed him. I choose not to point my firearm at an unknown man shaped target in order to illuminate him with my tactically mounted flashlight. If I am investigating suspicious sounds in my house in the night my first tactic of choice will be to turn on the room lights. If someone is clearly not trying to kill me I'm probably not going to try and kill them. It is my sincere prayer never to be involved in combat with firearms or weapons of any sort in all my life. I suspect that killing a man might be emotionally traumatic.

I like guns. I like learning about them and their history and how they work. I love to tear them down to the last screw, clean and oil real good and put them back together.

I proclaim my Constitutional right to arm myself and for all law abiding people to arm themselves. I advocate teaching gun safety and marksmanship in public schools. When we are done slaying all the gun control dragons I expect that all of the arms borne by the modern soldier in combat will be available to all law abiding citizens.

I advocate the use of firearms for self defense and the protection of innocent life.

How about you Girodin? Do you have opinions about the correct tactical use of shotguns with flashlights attached? Do you too have a bayonet on your shotgun? What training do you have in the defensive use of shotguns (or firearms generally), lights, room clearing, etc?

I would be genuinely interested to hear.

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 08:57 PM
Quite aware, but I'm still new around here and still not sure who the witty folks are, yet.
Me, I'm witty, I'm witty as hell.

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 09:04 PM
Quote:
Also, I'm figuring that that bayonet is going to go a long way towards making up for my tactical ignorance.
Can you explain that? I have always been taught that good training can make up for bad equipment, but that no amount of the best equipment makes up for inadequate training. My trainers may have been wrong but they all thought and taught the same basic principles, of which this was at or near the top.


I've had no training, if I did it would probably be worse than your training anyway. I use a bayonet on my shotgun cause I really like it. It pleases me like a new BB gun on Christmas morning. It's a good bayonet but I'm not sure if you would consider it "the best equipment."

I just visualized me sneaking up to a corner in the hallway and having the bad guy try and grab my tactically poorly positioned shotgun and grabbing the bayonet instead. Probably not the best plan in the real world, but it seemed witty when I wrote it.

I guess it wasn't really that witty.

BullfrogKen
December 19, 2010, 09:16 PM
I've had considerable training across a broad spectrum, including the pugil sticks training from the Marines.


Given a choice between a light and a bayonet, I'd chose the light every time. I have a 590, and a bayonet that'll fit it somewhere around here in a box. Even with that training, my plan doesn't include a bayonet. At all.


In fact, my personal plan doesn't even include my 590. I have a double barrel I like much, much better for inside the house.

stanger04
December 19, 2010, 09:20 PM
I'm gonna spitball here but hey if the guy wants a knife on his gun, let him go for it, like everything else there are gains and losses.

If weight is an issue what about one of those little pistol knives? Seriously, you have the knife, not much weight, and since the blade is so tiny court might not be an issue.

Time you buy a rail kit and the knife it's still less than a bayonet. I don't know I'm trying to think out side the box, I might need to be put back in though.

I'm not familiar with which way the blade faces on the shotgun mounts but if I used one I'd want the blade up. No training needed in home jab and continue a forward motion while pulling up.

ArmedLiberal
December 19, 2010, 09:24 PM
This has probably already been pointed out, but a bayonet will add length. Greater OAL when manuevering through a house is a disadvantage.

Pros for adding a bayonet for HD: looks cool (to some).

Cons: adds weight and length, dubious legality.

Lights are a more involved question. Yes, it's better to have lights in the area than use a weapon light for illumination, but there can be power outages/attacks and sundry other issues. Since I've actually taken the time to practice a little instead of just arguing about it online, I know I can use a weapon light to see if someone across a medium or larger room is holding a weapon without ever covering them with the muzzle.
I measure my bayonet as projecting 6 1/2" past the muzzle of my Mossberg. I just spent some time waving my shotgun around with and without the bayonet and I cannot perceive the difference in weight or balance. But then I have not had any tactical training either.

Before reading this thread I had not visualized using a tactical flashlight by pointing it and the shotgun at the ground in front of me to illuminate a room. Again the lack of training. This does seem like a reasonable way to use the light and still preserve gun safety. I'll have to think about that one.

In California at least there are no laws regarding bayonets. They have outlawed nunchuks, brass knuckles, shuriken and belt buckle knives but we can carry bayonets to our hearts content. We don't get many advantages in weapons laws here so we have to make the most of the ones we do have.

BullfrogKen
December 19, 2010, 09:26 PM
My point wasn't about ownership; it was about actually using it.


If you want a cool wall-hanger, or something to get out of the closet to impress your friends, go for it.


If you want something you're actually going to shoot and train with, something that can be used for home protection, something that's actually useful . . . spend that money on a good training class and some ammo.

FruitCake
December 19, 2010, 09:33 PM
When I bought my used wingmaster it came with the extended magazine for 2 extra shells and boy do I HATE the extra weight difference. I'm happy the seller sent me the original cap cause the extended mag came off quick. I can only imagine with a bayonet the unbalance of weight for me anyway. But some people like that kind of stuff so to each their own.nothing wrong with with a bayonet if its what you like but in my opinion its just extra weight that your not gonna use especially when theirs a trigger right next to your finger that you can pull that will cause an explosion and a bunch of little balls or one big piece of lead will come out to hurt whatever is threatning you.

Girodin
December 20, 2010, 12:23 AM
How about you Girodin? Do you have opinions about the correct tactical use of shotguns with flashlights attached? Do you too have a bayonet on your shotgun? What training do you have in the defensive use of shotguns (or firearms generally), lights, room clearing, etc?

I've done some training classes. I train(ed) a few SWAT guys in hand to hand stuff and they in turn train me in firearms. I'm fortunate enough to have a private range so I can do a lot of training and shooting and drills that one might not be able to at a public range. I had been a life long shooter and hunter before I started training in defense shooting. It was illuminating and I realized just how different it was and how much I had to learn.

Your sarcasm about the use of lights only further highlights that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Honestly, I suggest you spend the time and money to actually learn something about using your firearm.

stanger04
December 20, 2010, 01:01 AM
I see lights as a very important accessory to my firearms, I don't worry too much about my home being invaded because of the area I live in ( in the country know or am related to my neighbors ) but I do tend to think more about it when the power goes out.

To me I tend to think if something bad is going to happen it will be at the worst possible moment. I would have to point my gun at someone or thing to use my light but it my finger is not on the trigger what is the problem?

To have a light on a gun would actually help in a court case as a defendant would be able to say he/she took every precaution they could to identify and respond to an intruder. There would be no saying they took a shot in the dark at an unknown/unidentified person whom could have easily been a family member.

ArmedLiberal
December 20, 2010, 05:58 AM
I've done some training classes. I train(ed) a few SWAT guys in hand to hand stuff and they in turn train me in firearms. I'm fortunate enough to have a private range so I can do a lot of training and shooting and drills that one might not be able to at a public range. I had been a life long shooter and hunter before I started training in defense shooting. It was illuminating and I realized just how different it was and how much I had to learn.

Your sarcasm about the use of lights only further highlights that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Honestly, I suggest you spend the time and money to actually learn something about using your firearm.
I guess what I'm trying to express with my flashlight sarcasm is "Lighten Up Francis!"

I actually do have a clue what I'm talking about, I just come to different conclusions than you do. I suspect that it's actually you who doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about.

Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.

If it pleases you to train and practice with great correctness and seriousness than by all means do so. What I'm saying is that it pleases me to shoot Pepsi in the desert with a silly (but really sharp, and very cool) bayonet on my shotgun. I would never suggest Pepsi shooting to anyone who didn't take joy in the idea.

There are many thousands of hours of serious and correct tactical training that I will never know. I'm pretty OK with that. Shotguns with tactically mounted flashlights offend my sense of esthetics. Just don't look right. This is not an argument to convince you that your extensive tactical training is not correct, just a comment on what my style preference is.

If you and I are ever pitted against each other in a tactical training exercise I'll have all my friends bet on you. OK?

I fully intend never to be involved in a life and death struggle against evil in my living room. I am consciously choosing not to dedicate myself to preparing for that struggle. I choose to believe that I will be a happier, more interesting person than you because of my choices. But then we all think our choices are better or we wouldn't choose that way. Right?

If evil ever knocks on my door asking directions to your house I'm guessing you would like me to send him straight over to you cause you'll be ready and eager for a chance to prove your skills and training. Am I wrong?

There are many, many ways for armed folk to use and enjoy their firearms. They are not all the same. We all find our own paths in life. I'm asking you to agree that not everyone has to follow the path you have chosen for yourself, that it's possible for another gun owner to responsibly enjoy guns in a different way than you do and still be a worthwhile person worthy of the respect that all human beings merit.

Whadda ya say Girodin?

Girodin
December 20, 2010, 06:32 AM
hat I'm saying is that it pleases me to shoot Pepsi in the desert with a silly (but really sharp, and very cool) bayonet on my shotgun. I would never suggest Pepsi shooting to anyone who didn't take joy in the idea.

Shoot however you like. If that's what makes you happy great but hold off on telling everyone else the value of equipment and spouting about how to use it since you have no training, no experience and no real clue.

Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.


Not hardly. You are also painting with a broad brush. I imagine that people who train to become more proficient in the defense use of firearms are not a monolithic group. They probably differ a lot in why they do it and what they think. If anything I imagine they are in general more aware of how many things can go wrong. Many of them my self included do that type of shooting/training at least in part if not primarily because they find it enjoyable.

I fully intend never to be involved in a life and death struggle against evil in my living room.

What happened to "It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates . . . "? I guess that just doesn't apply to folks who don't intend for things to happen. I find it amusing you put both of the above quotations in the same post.

I choose to believe that I will be a happier, more interesting person than you because of my choices.

Wow. I'm pretty sure there is a lot more to being happy or interesting than whether one likes to learn how to use their gun well or whether on likes to only plink at pop bottles. Those are actually probably really far down the list of things that contribute to one being a happy and or interested person. I am a bit amused that anyone would assert that they are (or at a minimum believe that they are) more interesting than another person they have never met (and more interesting to who? There is no standard measure or unit of interesting). That one would base such an assertion on the fact that one shoots pop bottles in the desert makes it sound even more inane.

If evil ever knocks on my door asking directions to your house I'm guessing you would like me to send him straight over to you cause you'll be ready and eager for a chance to prove your skills and training. Am I wrong?

You're 100% wrong. Equating one being more prepared to deal with a bad situation to that person welcoming or desiring it in anyway is plain stupid. I wear a seat belt yet I do not wish for a car accident. I have fire insurance but I don't hope my home burns. I have food/water storage, still I do not hope for a shortage. I have money set aside in the bank and I certainly do not hope to lower my income or increase my bills.

I'm asking you to agree that not everyone has to follow the path you have chosen for yourself, that it's possible for another gun owner to responsibly enjoy guns in a different way than you do and still be a worthwhile person worthy of the respect that all human beings merit.


Nothing I have said suggests anything different and your whole post is a poor attempt to distract from what actually was said. Lets recap it. You spouted off some silly remarks about using fighting shotguns and accessories. I asked the bases for your opinions. You admitted to having none and then went on a bunch of tangential rants about nothing of particular note or real relevance to anything that was said before. I honestly could careless what other people do with their firearms provided it is safe and legal. When someone wants to start opining, as you apparently love to do, then I think there is nothing wrong with inquiring into what informs their opinions.

If you want to use your guns to shoot pop cans by all means do that. What I suggest is you then you refrain from spouting off about things you admit to knowing nothing about. What do you say?

ArmedLiberal
December 20, 2010, 07:31 AM
I guess a good summary of what I'm saying is that I find folks who love tactical training and equipment more than anything else about guns often get a little too serious and would benefit from some lightness and humor.

I can't believe that you would dismiss my flying Pepsi cans as "plinking at pop bottles." Bottles are way more trouble to pick up after. Cans mostly hold together and using Diet Pepsi prevents the sticky mess that sugared Pepsi would bring.

Quote:hat I'm saying is that it pleases me to shoot Pepsi in the desert with a silly (but really sharp, and very cool) bayonet on my shotgun. I would never suggest Pepsi shooting to anyone who didn't take joy in the idea.

Shoot however you like. If that's what makes you happy great but hold off on telling everyone else the value of equipment and spouting about how to use it since you have no training, no experience and no real clue.

I never, ever suggested my preference for a bayonet on my shotgun as advice for the tactically inclined, or that a shotgun bayonet was of any value other than it's supreme coolness nor did I presume to instruct in it's proper use other than mere admiration.


Quote:Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.

Not hardly. You are also painting with a broad brush. I imagine that people who train to become more proficient in the defense use of firearms are not a monolithic group. They probably differ a lot in why they do it and what they think. If anything I imagine they are in general more aware of how many things can go wrong. Many of them my self included do that type of shooting/training at least in part if not primarily because they find it enjoyable.

I can't argue with this. You do not sound like one of those who believes that their skill and training guarantee a good outcome.

Quote:I fully intend never to be involved in a life and death struggle against evil in my living room.

What happened to "It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates . . . "? I guess that just doesn't apply to folks who don't intend for things to happen. I find it amusing you put both of the above quotations in the same post.

Boy, that sure pokes a hole in my rhetoric. Touche!

Quote:I choose to believe that I will be a happier, more interesting person than you because of my choices.

Wow. I'm pretty sure there is a lot more to being happy or interesting than whether one likes to learn how to use their gun well or whether on likes to only plink at pop bottles. Those are actually probably really far down the list of things that contribute to one being a happy and or interested person.

I intended to accuse you of excessive seriousness and devotion to tactical training. No one enjoys the company of the excessively serious one. I may have been mistaken about you. Although there does seem to be a certain lack of humor or wit to your arguments.

Quote:If evil ever knocks on my door asking directions to your house I'm guessing you would like me to send him straight over to you cause you'll be ready and eager for a chance to prove your skills and training. Am I wrong?

You're 100% wrong. Equating one being more prepared to deal with a bad situation to that person welcoming or desiring it in anyway is plain stupid. I wear a seat belt yet I do not wish for a car accident. I have fire insurance but I don't hope my home burns. I have food/water storage, still I do not hope for a shortage. I have money set aside in the bank and I certainly do not hope to lower my income or increase my bills.

Very well put. I wish that this was my argument, I agree completely.

Quote:
I'm asking you to agree that not everyone has to follow the path you have chosen for yourself, that it's possible for another gun owner to responsibly enjoy guns in a different way than you do and still be a worthwhile person worthy of the respect that all human beings merit.

Nothing I have said suggests anything different and your whole post is a poor attempt to distract from what actually was said. Lets recap it. You spouted off some silly remarks about using fighting shotguns and accessories. You might have missed the marked lack of seriousness of my remarks. Do you really think that someone searching for serious tactical information would be in danger of mistakenly taking my posts as a serious source? So you think that making a statement like "Bayonets are cool and I like one on my shotgun" is telling everyone else the value of equipment and spouting about how to use it? You admitted to having none and then went on a bunch of tangential rants about nothing of particular note or real relevance to anything that was said before. I honestly could careless what other people do with their firearms provided it is safe and legal.If you honestly could care less what other people do with their firearms , why are you so exercised about my shotgun bayonet? When someone wants to start opining, as you apparently love to do, then I think there is nothing wrong with inquiring into what informs their opinions. Indeed, that is so. I trust I have completely explained the foundation of my opinions.

If you want to use your guns to shoot pop cans by all means do that. What I suggest is you then you refrain from spouting off about things you admit to knowing nothing about. What do you say?

I say that I never presented tactical training information. My "spouting off" was expressing my delight with my shotgun bayonet.

Also, you presume to hold the one standard for what using a gun well means. Perhaps not all the world shares your gun use values.

Sam1911
December 20, 2010, 08:04 AM
Those who take their tactical training seriously are convinced that if they take the right training and practice hard in the correct fashion then they will inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way. It turns out that life is not like that at all. Human beings are often not in control of their fates when an emergency occurs no matter what training and practice and equipment they have.

This is a frustratingly common sentiment. It is flawed on several levels:

1) Folks who train and practice are generally not under the delusion that they will "inevitably overcome any dangers that may come their way." Rather, training and practice tend to show up starkly all the deficiencies in a person's skill-set. Shows them what can and WILL go wrong or fail. Shows them how slow and inefficient their own movements are under even simulated stress -- and how easy it is to miss "even with a shotgun" when pushing past the limits of your skills.

2) The statement is also is flawed in its fatalistic conclusion -- that life is just too random for preparation to have any benefit. The fractured belief that, since emergency situations are not entirely controllable, there is no value in practicing and preparing to handle similar crisis moments. Taken to its extremes, "Why bother to be faster and more accurate with my home-defense gun? While the bad guy and I are trading shots, a meteor will probably hit the house and kill us both anyway!" :rolleyes:

People who face risks (well) train and practice. Pilots do it, EMTs do it, soldiers do it, race drivers do it, sailors do it, firefighters do it, etc. Not one of them is under any kind of pretense that their simulations and dry runs are going to exactly emulate the next real emergency they will face. But they establish the habits and techniques that work most often under most conditions, test their equipment and make sure they understand how it works and how it fails, and they develop the fall-back plans that could support them when the first (second, etc.) plan doesn't work.

When the dire threat to life and limb does come, they know there will be some aspect of it that will not be like the practice run. Some element(s) will overcome, break, or evade their trained responses -- and they will have to answer that new twist with ingenuity, creativity, confidence and strength under pressure, flexibility, and perhaps a big dose of "luck." But their practice has allowed them to narrow that uncontrollable element down. The ENTIRE situation isn't unfamilar ground. They aren't caught "flat-footed" at square one.

I've watched people run unfamiliar guns through "self-defense" scenarios. (We do this as an official match once a year at my club -- set our participants up to run various scenarios with guns they've never seen before.) I've also helped many hundreds of shooters run defensive scenarios and shoot houses with equipment they DO own and SHOULD know well, and seen them be utterly flummoxed when it didn't do what they expected. Training and practice help eliminate your equipment, your setting, and your own skill-set from the list of the "unknowns" that could get you killed.

Sam1911
December 20, 2010, 08:33 AM
As others have said, the OP's question was pretty specific and has been answered.

There are some really pertinent questions on the utility of such items that might make for a very informative S&T discussion.

Arguing whether a bayonet on a shotgun is cool -vs.- practical isn't likely to end well, and folks get a bit hot under the collar when told to "Lighten up, Francis."

As the OP hasn't returned to the forum in five days, I'll call this done.

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