Are there any modern service pistols in 7.62x25 Tokarev?


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dcarch
December 16, 2010, 10:41 AM
I am a proud owner of a Kimber Custom II .45, and I love all things .45, but I got to shoot a CZ 52 in 7.62x25 Tokarev the other day, and I was very, VERY impressed by the laser-like accuracy and penetration of the 7.62x25 round. That got me thinking, what with the dirt-cheap costs of 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo, has any firearms manufacturer announced plans to build a modern pistol in 7.62x25? I personally wouldn't mind seeing a Glock in that caliber, but I guess I'll just have to wait... :( Does anyone else here share my love for the 7.62x25?

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bigfatdave
December 16, 2010, 12:28 PM
Does anyone else here share my love for the 7.62x25? I do, and a lot of people who know and understand surplus do as well.

I am not aware of anything currently being produced in Tok but would be delighted to see something come out and more modern ammo production.

It will be a sad day when the surplus Tok ammo runs out, I suspect the current ammo prices will rise sharply when they no longer have to compete with spam-cans of corrosive surplus.

Correction on modern production:
There is at least one guy making AK variants in Tok (I think he has a source of demilled PPS43 parts he adapts to cheap AK receivers) Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Woeaz1WDoWM)
The Sterlings available through some online dealers (http://www.centerfiresystems.com/sterling-pistol.aspx) are either new production or cobbled together form surplus parts, I don't know, and I've never seen one in person. They're homely, but might be fun range toys.

Quiet
December 17, 2010, 09:38 AM
The only "new" 7.62x25mm pistols currently being made are pistol versions of the PPS43 and Sterling Mk 7. They are put together using used surplus subgun kits with US made recievers & US made non-chrome lined barrels.

Because the overall length of the 7.62x25mm is longer than the majority pistol cartridges it can not be readily adpatable to currently available handguns.

Since, the overall length of the 7.62x25mm is shorter than the 5.7x28mm cartridge, it could be adapted to the FN Five-seveN pistol.

kludge
December 17, 2010, 02:17 PM
I want a Tok carbine, make it operate like a .30 Carbine, 14" barrel (16.2" for non SBR), 4 to 4.5 lbs, double stack 30 round mags.

PTK
December 17, 2010, 03:06 PM
I want a Tok carbine, make it operate like a .30 Carbine, 14" barrel (16.2" for non SBR), 4 to 4.5 lbs, double stack 30 round mags.
Then build one - it would be more straightforward to just use the PPSh 43 mags, magwell and a converted bolt, though. Doesn't need to be a locked system of operation, but if you want to go that way I'd recommend going with an AK bolt, carrier, and FCG instead of making it work like a M1 Carbine. Shouldn't cost too much to make, nor take too much effort. :)

kludge
December 17, 2010, 10:46 PM
I probably used the wrong word "operate". I should have said manual of arms.

Snowdog
December 17, 2010, 11:27 PM
About 6 months ago I stumbled upon a YouTube video of a fellow with both a Glock 20 and 1911 converted to 7.62x25. I haven't seen anything on the subject since.

wally
December 18, 2010, 09:16 AM
It will be a sad day when the surplus Tok ammo runs out, I suspect the current ammo prices will rise sharply when they no longer have to compete with spam-cans of corrosive surplus.


Nah, the brass cased non-corrosive is readily available now for ~$20/50 in the same ballpark as any other centerfire pistol ammo other than 9mm or .40S&W.


I want a Tok carbine, make it operate like a .30 Carbine

CNC Gunparts makes a 7.62x25 AR upper. I've got one and it works great! Uses PPSh 43 mags with a simple modification to engage the AR mag catch.

otomik
December 18, 2010, 10:11 AM
Since, the overall length of the 7.62x25mm is shorter than the 5.7x28mm cartridge, it could be adapted to the FN Five-seveN pistol.i don't think so. that's a thin barrel and the five-seven pistol uses a form of blowback that probably can't handle such hot rod cartridge.
http://www.tornado-technologies.com/images/threading/FN_Five_Seven_row.jpg

a modern pistol in 7.62mm tok would be a better than a five seven. modernize a c96 with a extending shoulder stock and you have a great pdw.

otomik
December 18, 2010, 10:20 AM
Beware, tho, if the resulting loads will pierce a Threat Level IIA vest, you are committing a Federal Felony by possessing them.***. a regular tokarev round will penetrate IIA. IIA ain't that tough at all.

Quiet
December 18, 2010, 10:20 AM
About 6 months ago I stumbled upon a YouTube video of a fellow with both a Glock 20 and 1911 converted to 7.62x25. I haven't seen anything on the subject since.
Chatter on another forum, indicated he could get 6 rounds into the modified 15 round 10mm Glock magazine. Only six rounds because the 7.62x25mm cartridges had to be seated at an angle in order to fit in the magazine.
Chatter also said their were numerous FTF issues.

don't think so. that's a thin barrel and the five-seven pistol uses a form of blowback that probably can't handle such hot rod cartridge.
The FN Five-seveN magazine well and magazines are long enough to accomodate the 7.62x25mm cartridge, however you would need to fabricate a new slide/barrel/lock-up system to accomodate the 7.62x25mm.

a modern pistol in 7.62mm tok would be a better than a five seven. modernize a c96 with a extending shoulder stock and you have a great pdw.
I agree.

otomik
December 18, 2010, 10:29 AM
coming soon: The New FN Seven-Five pistol!

otomik
December 18, 2010, 10:33 AM
No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe.there has to be some misunderstanding because any regular tokarev can do that, can bust through a 55-gallon barrel and still come out and kill a guy to quote a john woo film.

mongo4567
December 18, 2010, 11:13 AM
katad - that's the law. No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe. A Google search should tell you pretty quick. The law used to be that as long as the bullet wasn't made of steel, bronze, brass, or iron, it was legal. But it got changed. I suppose by the 86 Firearms Act (which I think is the Dole Amendment, which was mostly pro-gun).

Provide a link to that "law" please

Deanimator
December 18, 2010, 11:57 AM
Beware, tho, if the resulting loads will pierce a Threat Level IIA vest, you are committing a Federal Felony by possessing them.
Really?

So then everybody with a Remington XP100 is a felon?

How about every long range handgun silhouette shooter with an XP100 converted to .308 or .358, or even .458 Winchester?

How about the Thompson-Center Contenders converted to the dozen or more high velocity handgun hunting and silhouette cartridges from JDJ and others?

Don't confuse what Diane Feinstein WANTS with actual LAW.

PTK
December 18, 2010, 12:51 PM
that's the law. No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe.

Quote the precise law or, respectfully, stop spreading misinformation.

Also, yes, it's in 18 USC, along with a few thousand other laws. Sort of like telling someone what you think a word means, but they changed it, but it's in the dictionary, so... :scrutiny:

The actual law you're trying to quote, by the way, is 18 USC Section 921, 17, B.

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge
cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in
any firearm.
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a
handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence
of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of
tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or
depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber
designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a
weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the
projectile.

(C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun
shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations
for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target
shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is
primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other
projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is
intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device.


So, as you can see, you're incorrect. The law hasn't changed, hasn't been modified, and no handgun ammo is banned except by those standards - which are actually quite specific and only truly restricted a few novelty rounds.

A careful reading of the law shows that if you wanted AP handgun ammo, you simply have to add lead and use a relatively lightweight jacket. A steel, tungsten, or even DU rod for penetration are all legal if you have lead or other non-banned material and a 24% jacket weight or less. They wanted to specifically ban THV and "donut cutter" ammo in handguns.

dogtown tom
December 18, 2010, 12:57 PM
Dang you PTK! You beat me!:D

katad that's the law. No handgun ammo may be legally possessed by a civilian if it will do that. Title 18 of the Federal Criminal Code, I believe. A Google search should tell you pretty quick. The law used to be that as long as the bullet wasn't made of steel, bronze, brass, or iron, it was legal. But it got changed. I suppose by the 86 Firearms Act (which I think is the Dole Amendment, which was mostly pro-gun).

Fail. Fail. Fail.
No Federal law bans possession or use of armor piercing handgun ammunition by civilians. The sale of such ammunition (for handguns) by a licensed dealer or manufacturer IS regulated.

A Google search DOES NOT tell you that pretty quick, it tells you just the opposite.

The law CONTINUES to define "armor piercing ammunition" as follows:
Title 18 US Code Chapter 44 Section 921 (a) 17 (B)
The term "armor piercing
ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core
which may be used in a handgun
and which is constructed entirely
(excluding the presence of traces
of other substances) from one or a
combination of tungsten alloys,
steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium
copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger
than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and
whose jacket has a weight of more
than 25 percent of the total weight
of the projectile.

There is no need to Google when you can get this information easily directly from the ATF website:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

PTK
December 18, 2010, 01:04 PM
Not true, I've seen it in the Code. I'll be back with the quote. Wanna bet big bucks on it?
I'd take you up on that, but internet gambling is illegal in my state. :(

Hell, I'd be willing to bet a nice, round, figure, like... your gun collection against mine. That'd be big bucks. ;)

You're 100%, entirely, wrong. It's my job to know things like this off the top of my head and keep up-to-date.

To make it clear, you believe that any ammo that can penetrate IIa armor, fired from a handgun, is clearly illegal, and that you believe the 1986 FOPA introduced this, and that the relevant information is clearly in USC 18... somewhere.

dogtown tom
December 18, 2010, 01:37 PM
55 posts in twelve hours.
Dude you don't have time to do research.:D

dogtown tom
December 18, 2010, 02:01 PM
katad I'll just have to go look it up in the books. The online access sucks. I've seen it in the 2007 Federal Criminal Code. I remember being upset that they had changed the law about AP ammo, cause I had SD loads that would do this, but were not illegal under the old law. I really have no idea what law changed it. It's possible that the authors of the code didn't remove portions that were put there by the 1994 Assault rifle ban, and that resulted in what I read. If it's not illegal, great. But I know what I read.

The online access only sucks when you don't know where to look.

All you need to do is open this link to the Federal Firearms Regulation Guide:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Then go to the Index at the very end. On page 228 is "Armor Piercing Ammunition" and every reference to AP is shown with citations to the applicable law, regulation, as well as rulings, procedures and industry circulars.

dcarch
December 18, 2010, 02:49 PM
Could anyone else see a company like Taurus coming out with a modern 7.62x25 pistol?

Deanimator
December 18, 2010, 03:57 PM
Could anyone else see a company like Taurus coming out with a modern 7.62x25 pistol?
No, but I could see Norinco doing it. You just won't be able to buy one.

Of course the Chinese could probably lean on Obama hard enough to make him remove the import ban if they chose to, not by itself but as an overall strongarm move regarding trade and our growing debt to them.

Spec ops Grunt
December 18, 2010, 04:16 PM
No, but I could see Norinco doing it. You just won't be able to buy one.

Of course the Chinese could probably lean on Obama hard enough to make him remove the import ban if they chose to, not by itself but as an overall strongarm move regarding trade and our growing debt to them.


I would be so fine with that. Now if only Russia could bully us into allowing non-sporting config Saigas.

Col. Plink
December 18, 2010, 06:12 PM
why not just buy a dang CZ-52?

macadore
December 18, 2010, 06:39 PM
I realize it would require paper work and a tax stamp, but if that were done, how difficult would it be to purchase a PPS-43 (http://store.prairiearms.com/store/product/118787/IOI-PPS-43C-7.62X25-4-35RD-MAG/) and replace the welded folding stock with one that would work correctly?

wally
December 18, 2010, 10:04 PM
I realize it would require paper work and a tax stamp, but if that were done, how difficult would it be to purchase a PPS-43 (http://store.prairiearms.com/store/p...25-4-35RD-MAG/) and replace the welded folding stock with one that would work correctly?

Way too difficult to be practical. Buy the "carbine" version with a working folding stock and then SBR it. All things considered, the CNC Gunparts AR upper is a better way to go.

otomik
December 19, 2010, 10:35 AM
why not just buy a dang CZ-52?good question. it's not a bad pistol but it has small sights, low capacity, a fragile firing pin, a faulty decocking lever, lack of a rail, lack of support, heel magazine release, overly heavy trigger pull for a single action, etc.

all of these could be easily addressed if CZ would update their design.

oal for 7.62mm tok is 1.3 inch
oal for .45acp is 1.26 inch

it's not too much of a stretch.

Col. Plink
December 23, 2010, 04:25 PM
mine's never given me a problem, though it would be nice to have more capacity. I don't trust decockers anyway, and parts are still cheap and easy to find. Not sure what all the belly-achin's about...

cougar1717
December 23, 2010, 05:46 PM
I hate to be a spoiler, but no major (Western) handgun manufacturer is going to fool with 7.62x25 - there's just not that much demand to be profitable. The only guns available are either C&R handguns or remanufactured parts kits that transform subguns into semi-auto carbines. The cartridge is basically a faster 30 Mauser designed for use in a full auto carbine. It has extreme velocity but little knockdown power - 85gr @ approx 1400+. Many people see the dirt cheap corrosive ammo from the 1950's to 70's and think that that's the way to go to shoot a lot for less cash, but if you compare apples to apples, would it be attractive if 7.62x25 ammo was $16/box of 50? At that point, many start thinking about 9mm @ $10/box or 40 @ $14/box at their local WM.

mopar92
December 23, 2010, 05:53 PM
I'm not sure about no knockdown power? .380 and all these new short barrel 9mm can't have unreal knockdown power compared to the 7.62X25

il_10
December 23, 2010, 06:15 PM
wikipedia:
5.5 g (85 gr) FMJ[4] 525 m/s (1,720 ft/s) 760 J (560 ft·lbf)
from a 12 cm barrel

560 fl-lbs sounds like plenty of power to me...
But I carry 9x18 mak, so I fall right into line with the kind of people who like 7.62x25.

mopar92
December 23, 2010, 06:19 PM
Wonder what the real ballistics are for surplus Polish ammo?

Snowdog
December 23, 2010, 06:27 PM
Mopar92, if you're willing to wait a few weeks, I plan on running various military surplus 7.62x25 over my Chrony F1 when the weather warms up. Though this is primarily to get the numbers for Yugoslavian surplus, it will also include Romanian and Polish surplus (as well as some commercial 93 gr JSP loads from Reed's ).

mopar92
December 23, 2010, 11:11 PM
That will be quite interesting!

GCBurner
December 23, 2010, 11:28 PM
I know that conversion barrels are available for the Uzi Carbine in .357 SIG,
.40 S&W, and .41 AE. I wonder if anyone has made one for the 7.62x25 Tok, or if that round is too hot for a simple blowback action like the Uzi?

otomik
December 24, 2010, 01:49 AM
I wonder if anyone has made one for the 7.62x25 Tok, or if that round is too hot for a simple blowback action like the Uzi?you've got to be kidding. the uzi copies the cz23, a 7.62mm tok subgun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_Model_25

harmon rabb
December 24, 2010, 09:00 AM
Mopar92, if you're willing to wait a few weeks, I plan on running various military surplus 7.62x25 over my Chrony F1 when the weather warms up. Though this is primarily to get the numbers for Yugoslavian surplus, it will also include Romanian and Polish surplus (as well as some commercial 93 gr JSP loads from Reed's ).

Please post up when you do. Would be very interesting.

GCBurner
December 24, 2010, 09:13 AM
you've got to be kidding. the uzi copies the cz23, a 7.62mm tok subgun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_Model_25
Making a .30 calibre barrel for the Uzi should be pretty straightforward, then. I'm not sure of the cartridge dimensions as to whether a 9mm or .40 S&W bolt and magazine would work.

Glamdring
December 27, 2010, 04:36 AM
IIRC the 9x19mm was based on the 30 Mauser and the 7.62x25 is basically a 30 Mauser. So should be pretty easy to get barrel in 7.62x25 for most 9s.

Full Metal Jacket
December 27, 2010, 05:14 AM
Are there any modern service pistols in 7.62x25 Tokarev?



Does anyone else here share my love for the 7.62x25?

no.

rattletrap1970
December 27, 2010, 05:51 AM
I shoot the 7.62x25 with a 115gr Wheelweight cast bullet with 4.5gr Scot 453 behind it, with a single punched CZ-52 (by single punched I mean the Arsenal refinishing marks on the spine of the slide that denote the potential accuracy of the gun). Terribly accurate, no leading, and very manageable recoil at about 1100 ft-sec. S&B runs about 1540.
The trick to finding a contemporary firearm to shoot this cartridge is to fin one that is a similar length (after all it does have to fit in the magazine and feed reliably). One that kind of stands out in my mind on a "relatively" modern pistol is the AMT Automag III (.30 Carbine).

Side note:
I have heard all kinds of arguments about the refinishing punch marks on the CZ-52.
My information comes from the American Gunsmithing Institute video: AGI - Armorers Course - CZ-52 (Explained 4:12 min - 4:40min)

Fastcast
December 27, 2010, 12:02 PM
no.

You're right there's no modern service pistols but there's still plenty of love for the 7.62x25 cartridge. :p

Snowdog
December 27, 2010, 02:14 PM
The velocities will only be from my two Yugoslavian M57s and not from the CZ-52 as I sold mine recently. However, the velocities should be quite similar to the CZ. I'll certainly post the results in a new thread.

otomik
December 28, 2010, 04:17 AM
the length of the magazine well in the grip is a limiting factor. that's why .45GAP was created because nobody wants to redesign everything for a cartridge like 7.62x25mm tokarev which might have no future.

.45acp
10mm
.38 super
9mm largo
7.62mm tokarev.

these cartridges are all a similar length. you can modify for a shorter cartridge like 9mm but not the reverse. these aren't very popular cartridges except for the .45ACP.

9mm luger
.40 S&W
.357SIG
.30 luger
9x21mm IMI
.45GAP

a few of these cartridges are popular. most autoloaders have this shorter magwell. manufacturers would rather have one magwell size unless customers start buying more guns in .45acp, 10mm, etc.

rogertc1
December 28, 2010, 05:33 AM
Correction:
A PPS 43C is totally made in Poland them imported to the usa with all new parts. The folding stock is welded in place.
Pic of mine...(The one on top)
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c248/rogertc1/firearms/PPS43CandRanchhand.jpg

bigfatdave
December 28, 2010, 01:51 PM
IIRC the 9x19mm was based on the 30 Mauser and the 7.62x25 is basically a 30 Mauser. So should be pretty easy to get barrel in 7.62x25 for most 9s.You're right about both having the same parent case, but the 7.62 Tok round is a LOT longer than the 9 Luger round
You can swap 7.62 Tok to 9 Luger in some cases, but the other way won't fit the magwell.

BAD IDEA BELOW:
Disturbingly (and don't try with real ammo, use a snap-cap) 9x19mm Luger will feed and chamber from a 7.62x25 Tokarev magazine, and when I did it with snap-caps in my CZ52 it hit the primer.
Probably a bad idea with live ammo, I don't even put the two on the same table at the range if I'm not the only shooter.

otomik
December 28, 2010, 03:38 PM
You're right about both having the same parent casenope. you're forgetting .30 luger

Deanimator
December 28, 2010, 03:39 PM
IIRC the 9x19mm was based on the 30 Mauser and the 7.62x25 is basically a 30 Mauser.
9x19mm Parabellum was based on the 7.65mm Luger round blown out to 9mm.

The 7.62x25mm is indeed essentially the 7.63x25mm Mauser, only (for the most part) hotter.

otomik
December 28, 2010, 03:53 PM
The 7.62x25mm is indeed essentially the 7.63x25mm Mauser, only (for the most part) hotter.well the 7.63x25mm Mauser is indeed essentially the .30 borchardt only hotter.

Deanimator
December 28, 2010, 04:00 PM
well the 7.63x25mm Mauser is indeed essentially the .30 borchardt only hotter.
That is correct, with the weakest round (and action) being that of the Borchardt.

gripper
December 28, 2010, 04:25 PM
I for one would LOVE a Glock 20 type handgun in 7.62x25....only reason I lean towards the G20 is th ecase length of the two cartridges...OAL I am not sure of.
But yes, a modern ,double stack Tok with a 5-6 inch barrel is something I have dreamed on for a long time.
IIRC,was therd not a similar ( albeit select fire design ) that competed in the Soviet pistol trials in the early 30's???I believe it was the "Swartslosse Standarte" ( spelling ???)or some such.
Also,I believe that at one time the Stetchkin was conceived as being readily convertible ( or producable) in both 9X18 and 7.62x25....now if only a semi only clone build could be done in THAT.....( hey,I LIKE Combloc arms,if not their politics:neener:)

Fastcast
December 28, 2010, 05:21 PM
I for one would LOVE a Glock 20 type handgun in 7.62x25.

:rolleyes: That just might convince me to buy a Glock. :o

That's how much I love the 7.62x25 :evil:

dcarch
December 28, 2010, 05:25 PM
Me too...

GCBurner
December 28, 2010, 06:08 PM
Looks like the 7.62 Tok is only 2mm longer overall than the 10mm Auto, so I guess it's possible it would fit in the magazine of a Glock 20 or 29. The rim diameter is much smaller, though, so it would require a new slide as well as a new barrel.

gripper
December 28, 2010, 06:20 PM
Ok .....maybe a fo.lower redesign,new extractor and striker face of the slide....speaking of which-Glocks are striker fired and Tokarev ammo priming tends tp vary-hard primered subgun ammo vs.varying surplus'Sellier and Bellot'Wolf Gold,leftover Norinco and such....may have to work out a compromise striker weight and firing pin ....
Definitely would want a modern gun to be at LEAST able to safely run on the hottest stuff in circulation;so the proof loads may well wind up being epic.No point in making a glorified and oversized .32ACP.......

bigfatdave
December 28, 2010, 06:31 PM
nope. you're forgetting .30 luger I'm aware of .30Luger, but 7.62 Tok and 9 Luger ARE descended from the same casing, at least sharing some dimensions.

gripper
December 28, 2010, 06:41 PM
Hey!I wonder how a rotating barrel lockwork would work here(?????)steel or polymer frame....full length slide rails(maybe "reversed"a la Petter, Sig NeuHausen or CZ....full lentj dust cover,and work in the removable hammer/sear assembly of the TT series....some kind of bushing that also helped to reduce impact damage.....
Ideas , anyone?could be the germ of a retro cool caliber.....

dcarch
December 28, 2010, 06:47 PM
Sort of like a CZ-97 type look? 'Cause that could be cool!

gripper
December 28, 2010, 07:00 PM
Externally,yes....OTOH;due to the issues of case geometry,length,operating pressure and slide velocity I am wondering what lockup would be optimal for reliability and safety...rotating barrel(cougar, MAB PA 15,or PX series)or the BHP/SIG/Glock camming block and lug set up....or old school pivoting barrel link like JMB,and Fedor Tokarev intended....

Fastcast
December 28, 2010, 07:40 PM
Definitely would want a modern gun to be at LEAST able to safely run on the hottest stuff in circulation;so the proof loads may well wind up being epic.No point in making a glorified and oversized .32ACP.......

No doubt....The S&B I run through my CZ52 is listed at 1650fps....If it couldn't handle that I'm not interested.

I am wondering what lockup would be optimal for reliability and safety

Well, this one (roller locking block) does work very well.....100% reliable to date but yea a modern high-cap (16+rounds) and real sights would be a formidable weapon to say the least!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y62/fastcast/CZ52-1.jpg

gripper
December 28, 2010, 07:53 PM
RE the CZ52-what do you think about the underside of the chamber portion of the barrel-where it is undercut for the rollers-DOES that prove to be a weak point/fail point?Or has that been oversold as a warning?I knew about replacing firing pins from the stamped and rolled to the machined,but I was curious......ergos don't work for me compared to a TT33 or an M57,but I always liked the basic design...

Fastcast
December 28, 2010, 08:18 PM
RE the CZ52-what do you think about the underside of the chamber portion of the barrel-where it is undercut for the rollers-DOES that prove to be a weak point/fail point?Or has that been oversold as a warning?I knew about replacing firing pins from the stamped and rolled to the machined,but I was curious......ergos don't work for me compared to a TT33 or an M57,but I always liked the basic design...

Not concerned about it at all.....The fellow who managed to ruin a couple 52s, while trying to become an internet legend all at the same time, was re-loading to ridicules pressures and velocities. :rolleyes:

Purposely trying to blowup pistols that already handle extremely high pressures and then claiming they're weak is just sheer stupidity.....The ergos on the 52 are a little goofy but that universal Hogue grip has completely changed the feel and comfort of my 52. It's a superb addition!

My dealer had TT33 and CZ52s.....I looked them both over extensively and thought the TT33 (he had) was pretty crude in comparison to the CZ. My dealer felt the same way. Plus the CZ is unique, whereas the TT33 not so much so......The CZ went home with me and the TT33 stayed.....I'm very hapy with that decision, especially seeing as the 52 surplus is exhausted. You either have one or you don't! ;)

bigfatdave
December 28, 2010, 08:59 PM
what do you think about the underside of the chamber portion of the barrel-where it is undercut for the rollers-DOES that prove to be a weak point/fail point?
Well, the rumours came from some clown who was TRYING to explodinate a CZ52, and while the area might have a bit less bulk of metal it is strong enough to last the service life of the pistol, as far as I know. Did Armorer's Kits come with barrels? I've seen pics but can't remember what the barrel loadout was in an armorer's kit.

And has anyone reported wear in the "thin spot" or just the one instance of catastrophic failure?

Teapot
January 1, 2011, 07:50 PM
It is weaker than the TT-33. That is not to say all CZ-52's will fail using military ball rounds. Quite a lot blew up in Czech military service. A friend of mine was in the Czech Army. He told me it was universally despised and not trusted.

Snowdog
January 2, 2011, 04:07 PM
My only gripe with the CZ-52 were involving the grips. If felt completely wrong in my hands when compared to other pistols. Granted, I find the TT33 and variants also a bit awkward, but not something I would be reminded of every time I would pick it up, unlike the CZ-52.


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/5063773686_0bfcea1e6c_z.jpg

I went the Hogue Handall route initially and it did provide some semblance to a "modern feel" handgun, but could never shake the 2x4 ergonomics for me.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4713882006_f01f39bb9b_z.jpg

Finding someone who actually wanted the CZ-52 to round his collection, I figured I might as well sell it and purchase a 2nd M57,a pistol that simply fit me (much) better.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4130/5063169645_c43f710c0f_z.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4081/4753540066_cb28d9f6ea_z.jpg

As for the strength of the CZ-52, I think one would have to fire some seriously hot-rod
loads to run the gambit of damaging this pistol. They did seem awful stout.
I found both the CZ-52 and the TT33 plenty strong enough to product velocities needed to expand JSPs. I also found both !00% reliable.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5038308966_a6f3398df0_z.jpg

White Horseradish
January 2, 2011, 04:42 PM
a modern pistol in 7.62mm tok would be a better than a five seven. modernize a c96 with a extending shoulder stock and you have a great pdw.

The Chinese did it: Type 80 machine pistol (http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/ch/type-0-e.html). They also had a nifty folding stock for it that doubled as a bayonet scabbard.

Shadow 7D
January 2, 2011, 05:14 PM
what about a Tok revolver...

gripper
January 2, 2011, 05:22 PM
Two cylinder convertible?....one in 7.62X25,the other on .327?effectively a four caliber revolver.....GP100,or Blackhawk convertible.....or wild card-a muscled up Nagant?Probably not a safe bit of frankenstéining,but who knows?Or .....a top-break convertible....

Shadow 7D
January 2, 2011, 07:34 PM
yeah, that would be fun, or something like a KT sub 2000 type gun, where you have a light easy rifle that packs a punch.

CornCod
January 2, 2011, 09:50 PM
How about a 7.62X25mm Saiga with a 16 inch barrel?

J_McLeod
January 3, 2011, 11:52 AM
yeah, that would be fun, or something like a KT sub 2000 type gun, where you have a light easy rifle that packs a punch.
A while back KT had a survey on their website asking what people would like to see next from them. My vote was a bullpup style PDW in 7.62x25mm.

ilikestuff
January 15, 2011, 08:24 PM
I read a post from a guy at J&G sales who converted a 1911 pistol to the tokarev round. said it was fairly straight forward.
http://jggunsmith.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/the-tokarev-projects/

gripper
January 15, 2011, 09:26 PM
I wonder how the conversion dealt with the greater OAL and different case geometry.......most 1911s have the feed ramp separate from the chamber,and the Tok IS a LONG little sucker......works in TT33s and the like because they were designed around the 7.62X25

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