[Jason_W]

I am planning on conducting some terminal ballistics tests at self defense distances. I'm trying to decide on the exact distance at which to shoot the gel blocks. I'd be interested to hear what exact distance everyone thinks I should use. I'm thinking 10 yards.

[docnyt]

7 to 10 yards should be adequate.

[Water-Man]

7 yds.

[M2 Carbine]

I'd say about 20 feet indoors. My longest indoor shot could be 15 yards.

Personally my HD distance is the better part of 40 yards since I have outbuildings.

[Onmilo]

21 feet :D

[InkEd]

About 30 feet.

[Vern Humphrey]

I have a big two story house -- but its footprint is only 40 X 32 feet. I'd have to shoot the full width of the house to get a 10 yard shot.

If I were interested in "real life" shooting effectiveness, I'd select a range that was far enough so that muzzle blast didn't affect the outcome -- say 3 yards or so.

[benEzra]

3 to 7 yards, in my house. You guys with 10-yard rooms must live in bigger houses than I do. :D

[The Lone Haranguer]

It depends on the size of the room. The living room of my apartment, for example, is maybe 10x15 feet. The larger rooms in Hearst Castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearst_Castle) are hundreds of feet. :D But, were I doing controlled testing with a fixed distance for consistency of results, I think I would go with 20 feet for the purpose you state.

[Vern Humphrey]

Even in a large room, it is unlikely -- as katad said -- that the antagonists will not be in opposite corners. Most likely they will not have their backs pressed against the wall, either. So in a 20 X 20 foot room (and that's a big room), subtract 4 feet for each antagonist, and you get about 12 separation.

[Onmilo]

First the bad guy is gonna have to get past a dog that stays in the Living room, a cat with a bad attitude that roams at will, and three parrots that fly at anybody they don't recognize and proceed to bite parts off their head before they even get the chance to throw someting at my head, (Likely it will be a parrot), or jump me in the dark, (likely because the dog is firmly attached by the jaws to their backside or leg, whichever presented itself first), and chances are they will be begging me to remove the dog.

[hogcowboy]

I'm looking at my living room and I would say 7 to 8 yards.

[Jason_W]

"No, but then I can envision some things besides what applies only to my current situation. Maybe you should try that sometime? Just a suggestion."

katad,

At whom was this comment directed?

Because gelatin is expensive in quantities required for testing (something I do mostly as a hobby), I need to pick a distance for my tests. To test half a dozen rounds at all ranges from 2 feet out to 25 yards would we prohibitively expensive, not to mention maddeningly time consuming.

I certainly didn't mean to start any controversy with my original question.

[bkhosken]

I would guess about 3-4 yards. Any more than that the BG would probably decide to run away if he could, but within 3-4 yards he will probabaly try to grab you. I'm just guessing, though.

[LAK]

Across the room? What the average size of a room is probably depends on the size and layout of the house. 15-20 feet average sounds about right to me.

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Je Suis Prest

[brandon_mcg]

my rooms are 14x14 feet. that being said from the back of the hallway to the kitchen is 9 yards so i guess its possible that i may have to shoot that distance as well.

[Double Naught Spy]

I consider "across the room" distances to be domicile distances. I don't know why, but I don't think of "across the room" in regard to showrooms, eateries, malls, etc.

3 to 7 yards, in my house. You guys with 10-yard rooms must live in bigger houses than I do.
I have a hallway that runs from the laundry room at one end of the house to a bathroom at the other. The opposing walls are the exterior walls of the house. The absolute greatest distance in my house, not including the attic, is 16 yards and that isn't a room, but two small rooms and a very long hallways. I'm thinking a 7 yard room is pretty darned big.

[Jim Watson]

Seven yards is kind of a close range shooting standard.
Five yards would be ok, too.

I would not shoot any closer. For best data, you need to chronograph and the unit is best set at 10 feet to the start screen.

[The Lone Haranguer]

For best data, you need to chronograph and the unit is best set at 10 feet to the start screen.
A good point.

[22-rimfire]

I think the practical home defense range is about 20 feet or 7 yards. Depending on your resources, you might consider doing some testing at 30 feet (10 yds) with the better performing rounds in addition to the closer range to see if there is any significant difference. Frankly neither is very far which is why I don't worry about my shooting abilities at those kinds of ranges. Both are rock throwing distances. I am more concerned with my ability to bring the weapon to bear fairly quickly which can be practiced without even shooting.

[therewolf]

7 yards, or 21 feet.

[scaatylobo]

As a prior LEO ,I look at the longest range I could expect to shoot while on patrol,or in a mall.

That being the case I say about 25 yards is the longest shot and 3 yards the shortest.

I do understand that many shootings happen at 3' but that usually is S/D situations and happen FAST.

My house is only 1100 sq ft but there are a few places to take a 45' shot = that makes 15 yards and yes its a long way.

btw = the "choke & puke" refers to the nickname we gave to the 7-11's and Wilson farms [ ya know,open all day and night stores ]

[sniper5]

Unless you home really IS your castle, probably around 25ft or less. Now if you home REALLY is a castle. . .well, there are probably rooms in Buckingham Palace that are longer than 25 ft.

[Erik]

"What do you consider an "across the room" distance?"

3 to 7 yards.

[Tilos]

"Across the room distance" equals 3x "bad breath distance".

[Surefire]

7 yards

An exception I can think of is in a hallway. That may be further than 7 yards in many homes.

[Buzzard]

Charlie McNeese at Gunsite put it thus: 90% of gunfights happen in nine feet or less. 80% of that 90% occur within three feet.

For a house, call it twelve feet. Apartment, make that nine.

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // I'm most concerned when in small areas, with limited reaction time, like public rest rooms.

I practice from 3 feet -15 feet (1-5 yards)75% and 21 feet (7yards) about 25% with my S&W 442, 17/8", .38+P or Dan Wesson ,2 1/2", .357(using the same .38+P).

For more open areas, with my CZ 75B .40s&w or a S&W/Ruger 4-6" .357 revolver, from 5 yards out to 21 yards.

[gbran]

I have an average 3 br 1,700sf home. My biggest bedroom is about 14' long, my hall is maybe 10' long, my living room about 22' long. From the hall to the front door would be the longest shot at 25'.

I'm gonna guess most shots in my house would less than 10-12'.

[trig1986]

sounds like a waste of time and money anyway,if someone was in my house without my permission or broke in I think any shot that made direct hit would be effective, unless you are using a bb gun.

[Carl N. Brown]

My wife and I live in a 24'x36' foot bungalow; room sizes are 12'x12' 12'x12' 12'x22' 12'x18' with hallway 6'x4' and bathroom 6'x8', front door to back door is a max of 36' and the back deck is 16' x24'.

I am looking at room distances of approx 4 yards, 6 yards, 8 yards and full length of 12 yards and front porch rail to back deck rail of less than 20 yards (6'+36'+16').

In the past decade I have been shooting matches at the rod'n'club in pistol, slowfire and rapid fire at stationary target, and used to participate in "two shots in two seconds" at turning target, all at 25 yards (75') at the range. I need to go to my uncle's on the mountain to do some rapid fire drills at 4-6-8-12 yd targets and have my son randomly designate selected targets as friendly or hostile.

[wrs840]

I believe 7 yards, 21 feet, is a good distance to often practice at because it's a legal line in some states that separates a lower and higher burden of proof that a SD shooting is "justifiable". My NC homebase is one of them. That's why it's good to drill that distance into your brainstem / subconscious mind.

Les

[orionengnr]

7 yards, or 21 feet.
Yep. At the range I practice at 25 feet, but the distance from the back of the house to the front door is 21 feet on the dot.
That would be the red dot of the Crimson Trace, by the way. :)

[Dr.Rob]

Bad Breath Distance = 3 feet

Across /under the card table = 6 feet

Spiiting distance = 10 feet

He has a knife, I have a gun = 21 feet

Whites of his eyes = 40 feet

He's charging! = 50 feet

I can hit a deer/elk in the vitals every time with a handgun = 50 yards

Scoped rifle: it's easy = 100 yards

Scoped rifle: it's not hard = 200 yards

Scoped rifle: there's a wind and movement, I better know what I'm doing with windage = 300 yards

I want to brag = 400+ yards

I did it with an AK, wow worship me! = 500 yards

I yawned doing it with an AR = 600 yards.

I shoot rockchucks with a wildcat and here are laser range finder results and pics = 700 yards. How do you cook rockchucks?

I am a CMP master, with 3 lots of 150 gr ammo and an M1 Garand. = 800+ yards

I am a benchrest shooter trying to stretch my handload holdover and powder mix = 900 yards.

So and so (a famous sniper) shot a bad person with bolt rifle/zip gun in 30-06/8mm/7.62x54 in a (WW1/2. cattle dispute/parking space disagreement) and I want to know how too! =1000 yards.

I eviscerated a a pot bellied stove and killed the badger behind it to my surprise with a Lapua magnum = 1204 yards.

I am a Canadian with a Barret .50, you are not safe = 1250 yards.

I play Call of Duty witb an M1 carbine = 1500 yards

Distance an internet commando can run without puking/using an inhaler/having a long pull from a 48 oz Mountain Dew without questioning the COF as unfair to 'big men' = 4 yards.

Average shirt size of such 'experts' XXL

Average # of posts per day by a 14 year old troll = 56

Average # of posts by a troll pretending to BE a 14 year old kid = 274

Average # of posts Mods reply to before realizing said 14 year old has never handled a weapon outside of a video game = 6.

;)

[MikeNice]

In my house it would be 18 feet for the largest room.

I read somewhere one time that 15 - 17 feet is about average width for a master bed room. So, 15 feet should be a good distance.

[Erik M]

Between 15-21 feet, which is what I practice for with my carry guns.

Very informatice post Dr. Rob :D Nothing like insight into the world of 'cawa-dooty' armchair snipers :P

[Captcurt]

We qualify for CC at 3 and 7 yards. I would imagine that the lawyers would find a reason to sue at that range unless you caught a bullet first. Even then they would probably try to hang you with an excessive force charge.

One of the best books that I have read dealing with self defense is, In The Gravest Extreme, by Massad Ayoob. It should be required reading.

[LAK]

After re-reading the input on this thread, and noting all the hard analysis on across the room distances, something the OP can take home with certainty; the terminal ballistics of any handgun bullet are not going to vary by any significant measure between 0 and 10 or even 15 yards.

If you are trying to determine what load you want to use for your home defensive pistol I would do the following;

Search THR for "bests defensive load [loads]" (There is one recent thread in progress at this time).

Select three to half a dozen different loads in your cartridge. If you are using an autoloader buy as many as you can afford in each load.

Test a cylinder or half a magazine of each on your jello box at about THREE YARDS. This will allow precise shot placement so your hits do not overlap each other or waste jello by having to use "one jello box per shot" at greater distances. You can cover the front of the jello with white T-shirt cloth marked with aiming points spread evenly but not too close to the edges. This will also serve to put a "clothing barrier" albeit a superficial one, in front of the jello flesh.

Whatever your finished products look like, they will not look any different than if you fired them at three or more times the distance. If they do, and any of them are made by the big five (or whatever you want to call them), send them the bullets and the data because I am sure they will be very eager to know about it.

With an autoloader, take your best load and shoot them for feed reliability. With autoloader or revolver, test the loads for accuracy at about 10 or 15 yards.

Shoot left over ammo for practice and buy as many of your chosen load as you see fit to keep on hand for a very rainy day.


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Je Suis Prest

[gdcpony]

10yds

[ny32182]

I'm not sure that the question really relates to the pursuit of gel testing...

"Across the room" may mean slightly different things to different people, but the results of a gel test should be developed according to some sort of standard, most likely... that way you can better compare apples to apples with your testing, and others... etc.

There is probably a standard distance at which the industry tests. I would look for that, and use it if I could find it. If I couldn't I would put it at 10 feet so I could put the chrono directly in front, like someone else mentioned.

I bet gel testing is fun.

[Superlite27]

Great list of accepted known distances, Dr. Rob!

As far as the OP's realistic distance to likely be in a gunfight inside a house? (This is the distance you want to do your gel test on, right?)

Just my personal opinion:

Many people have stated 7 yards or 21 feet. This is the disatance we're supposed to take our CCW "practical" test at here in Missouri. I have seen this distance referred to as a likely distance of a gunfight numerous times in various places. I'm guessing this is tending to favor the idea of an outdoor gunfight.

But, indoors? Come on! Think about it. Realistically? 21 feet?

Isn't the average room in the average house realistically 12' x 14'? How many of us have 21' x 21' rooms in our houses?

Even if we all did, are we somehow supposed to believe we're going to stand against one wall while, somehow, getting the burglar to back up against the other in order to get the full 21 foot distance?

Once again, this is just my opinion, but I'm trying to think about it realistically.

I'd bet that a gunfight inside a house is going to occur while the participants are within reach of (at minimum) and 15 feet (at maximum) as a general guideline.

(Not accounting for those instances of larger rooms, hallways, and gunfights from one room to another.)

I'm gonna offer 10 feet as a reasonable distance to perform a realistic test.

[Owen Sparks]

Find the longest uninterupted space in your home. Assume your usual shooting stance with the heel of your back foot touching the wall. Depending on what type of firearm you use, the front of your muzzel will be around 4 to 6 feet from that back wall. Measure from the muzzel to find the longest possible shot that you might take in your home and train accordingly. At my house it is 11 yards from the back wall of the kitchen, through the den to the front door. That is the range that I pattern my shotguns. Any shot/choke combination will hit within a circle the size of a dinner plate at that range. If you have to go outside you need a rifle.

[Stevie-Ray]

Short enough to have a problem with a long gun in my present home, therefore the preferred .45 ACP pistol. However I'm going to have to rethink that in my next home which has areas of fire up to 60 feet. Shotgun under the tree, this year, already have an AR-15 carbine.

[Shawn Dodson]

Velocity loss at 25 yards for most handgun bullets will be about 50 fps less than muzzle velocity. Any affect of distance on terminal performance caused by velocity loss "across the room" will be negligible. You can prove this to yourself by testing the same load at 10-15 feet and then at 25 yards.

[RobMoore]

The first paragraph of post #38 should have been post #2, and /thread.

[xXxplosive]

I agree from 12 to 16 feet for the average house..........now that's pretty close.

[Franco2shoot]

I read through this thread and it got me thinking more Scenario based to determine range. So I'm upstairs, in the Master bedroom, its 3AM and I hear some rattling or scraping downstairs in the kitchen, someone trying to gain entry through the door or window. I pick up the 1911, slam in the magazine, and rack the slide just outside the bedroom door. This ejects the safety A-Zoom round and a hollow point is now chambered as I ask "Who's down there?" Just in case its someone that's lost and didn't hear that distinctive sound.
At this point I'm standing in a protected spot at the top of the stairs. Mr. BG has a choice of two... He can depart quickly, or attempt to come up the stairs.

Choice number 2 is most likely a leathal choice. He could take everything he finds downstairs, but coming up the narrow passage way to where my wife and kids are asleep... well let's just say that while I'm nobody's marksman out of 8 shots, there's not much chance all are gonna miss, and the range might start at 7 yards, but it certainly will not close to 3.

Just my perspective.


KKKKFL

[Jason_W]

For the record, I'm planning on testing some shotgun loads which are a little more sensitive to distance than handgun rounds.

I'm not even going to attempt to meet FBI standards which is very difficult in the absence of a climate controlled lab and professional preparation equipment.

I've taken to mixing my gel to 20% rather than the standard 10%. This is because it reduces the size of the blocks I have to transport to the range.

My tests are mostly to see how rounds A,B,C, and D compare to each other when fired into a medium made from the same batch.

[TX expat]

I'll give another vote for 7 yards, it seems to always come up as the de facto standard for most SD encounters. Anything much less and you run a huge risk of being overtaken before you could get anything aimed off and anything much more and there's a good chance you'll have a healthy legal battle ahead of you while you try to justify eminent threat.

Before anyone chimes in, I know, I know, I'd shoot at just about any distance if it was necessary to protect myself or my family too. I'm not implying that you can't or shouldn't do whatever is necessary!

[oldbear]

If you have the time and ability it could be fun to start at 5’ and work out to 30’ in 5 or 10’ increments. If that is too much 20 – 30 feet should be a reasonable distance. Please let us know your test results.

Happy Holidays all!!

[JShirley]

7 meters (7.5 yards).

[DeepSouth]

7 yards or 21 ft, either distance would be fine.;)

I like to stretch it out a bit to around 15 to 25 yards.
Most stores are made up of one big room if you think about it.

[LAK]

If you are going to be using shot loads of any size distance will be critical, because at contact distnce to 10 yards the pattern will go from the proverbial "solid" pellet mass to a modest spread.

I would do some basic pattern spread tests with each of your chosen loads first at 3, 7 and 10 yards. If you want to test individual pellet penetration you want to make sure the pattern has opened sufficiently for each to create it's own path in the medium. You can then test them on the medium.

Bear in mind that if you are using the traditional 000 buck load of nine pellets that even at ten yards there will be gaps in the pattern and your target medium frontal area will have to be sufficiently large to catch at least one pellet to get any results.

If you want to know what will happen at contact to 3 yards you can also shoot at about 2 yards to get an idea of what the wound effect will be and penetration.

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Je Suis Prest