7.62x25mm: Anything besides Tokareve and CZ-52?


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Nightcrawler
December 25, 2003, 12:44 PM
Are any pistols besides the Tokarev and CZ-52 chambered for the 7.62x25mm round? I ask because the round remains quite popular in Russia and that whole part of the world. I was wondering if anybody was making newer guns in that caliber.

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chevrofreak
December 25, 2003, 12:46 PM
I believe the Skorpion was chambered for this round as well. It can be considered a pistol cant it?

Nightcrawler
December 25, 2003, 12:49 PM
The Skorpion was a Czech submachine gun chambered for 7.65mm (.32ACP) and 9x17mm (.380).

DMK
December 25, 2003, 12:59 PM
Off topic, but I'd love to see somebody make a 16" barreled carbine like the Mech-Tec units that would fit on a CZ-52 frame. That would be cool!

James Bondrock
December 25, 2003, 03:09 PM
It is not a handgun, but there was a submachine gun from the WWII era called a PPsh. It had a 71-round (!) drum magazine. The Russians/Soviets were really big on submachine guns at the time. Shortly after WWII, they standardized the 9mm Makarov as an issue handgun. IIRC, the Tokarev cartridge is dimensionally identical to the 7.63 Mauser but loaded hotter, and the version used in the CZ52 is hotter still.

Nightcrawler
December 25, 2003, 05:06 PM
There were several SMGs in 7.62x25mm. The PPD-40, the PPsh-41 "Burp Gun", and the PPS-43. All saw service with many countries for many years, despite being officially replaced by Kalashnikovs.

It continues today, though. The Izhmash Bizon-2 submachine gun has a variant in 7.62x25mm, apparently feeding from Burp Gun 35 round magazines instead of the helicical (sp?) drum that most feed from.

James Bondrock
December 25, 2003, 06:24 PM
There were several SMGs in 7.62x25mm. The PPD-40, the PPsh-41 "Burp Gun", and the PPS-43.
The second one is the one I was thinking of. I have not heard the "burp gun" appellation for this one; it usually applies to the German MP40.

Mike Irwin
December 25, 2003, 06:53 PM
Burp gun became, really, a generic term for submachine guns in enemy hands during WW II, Korea, and to a lesser extent, Vietnam.

chevrofreak
December 25, 2003, 07:55 PM
The Skorpion was a Czech submachine gun chambered for 7.65mm (.32ACP) and 9x17mm (.380).


I may be confusing it for the Skorpion, but I believe there was a gun very similar to the Skorpion that was chambered for this round, but I cant seem to find any info about it! :(

JohnKSa
December 25, 2003, 11:42 PM
Someone was selling semi-auto PPSH type carbines awhile back. I can't remember who had them now, but there was a review on them in one of the gun rags.

George Hill
December 26, 2003, 12:28 AM
You can get a BIZON SMG in this caliber...
this is a helical drum fed AK based SMG.

In other words, it's the schizznit.

I'd like to see some other guns chambered for this round too. Like a match grade 1911... because I suspect this round has much greater accuracy potential than has ever been realized. Especially with properly made ammuntion and not just surplus.

Mike Irwin
December 26, 2003, 12:47 AM
Chevron,

You may be thinking of the Steichen, which was a Soviet pistol in 9x18 Makarov.

It had something like an 18 round magazine, and turned into a submachine gun when the holser/buttstock was attached.

max popenker
December 26, 2003, 02:27 AM
You may be thinking of the Steichen, which was a Soviet pistol in 9x18 Makarov.

Mike, it was Stechkin, a 20-rounder with full-auto mode and detachable shoulder stock/holster.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/aps.jpg

another SMG in 7.62x25 was the czech Sa.24
http://world.guns.ru/smg/m23.jpg

spacemanspiff
December 26, 2003, 03:41 AM
did george hill just properly use an ebonics phrase about a gun? :D

Dr.Rob
December 26, 2003, 03:56 AM
All Bizons use the Helical magazine.. and yeah... shiznit just about covers the look of a Bizon.

The 9mm mak version holds 66 rds, the 7.63 Tok would hold what.. 33?

Nightcrawler
December 26, 2003, 06:11 AM
According to Max's site, the drum on the Bizon in 7.62 holds 45 rounds. But according to the Izhmash site, the mag capacity is 35, so I think they primarily use Burp Gun mags in the Bizon 7.62mm.

George Hill
December 26, 2003, 04:53 PM
Bizons use helical mags. The length of the round reduces the overall capacity. This is why the .380 version has a much higher round count.

Grayrider
December 27, 2003, 12:26 PM
Slightly off track here, but I have wondered what a hi-cap 1911 would be like in this caliber. Perhaps take a Para setup for 9mm or 38 Super, then rebarrel. In 9mm at least only the barrel swap should be needed. Using the 9mm/38 Super mags, capacity would be around 18 rounds. The OAL of the round should be okay I would think, given the length of the .38 Super. The question is would the mags feed a bottle-necked round like that? Also, where would one get a 7.62x25 ramped barrel to fit the Para frame?

GR

George Hill
December 27, 2003, 01:42 PM
I don't know either, but if you find one, let us know.

Perhaps Jarvis could do one.

JShirley
December 28, 2003, 01:30 AM
It would be awesome in a G24/17L-sized Glock.

I'm already thinking about getting 9x23mm 1911, but if the right 7.62x25 was available...

Bison 3 (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg08-e.htm) is on my short list of subguns to get (along with the Skorpion .32), if they ever become available.

http://club.guns.ru/eng/bizon.html

tex_n_cal
December 28, 2003, 04:37 AM
I have never examined one myself, but I recall that the Chinese did a number of conversions to captured 1911's after Korea. I believe it requires frame mods to get normal Tok rounds to fit, due to the OAL. I also understand you could work out an improvised solution with handloads set to slightly shorter OAL, in a .38 Super magazine, and the appropriate barrel.

Serious 1911 experimenters only need apply:eek:

Personally, I think I'd rather try a 10mm necked to 30 cal, myself:D

nsmike
December 29, 2003, 02:18 AM
The 7.62x25 is basically the .30 Luger loaded hotter. Most of the Italian manufaturers have a civilian version of their 9mm's for their domestic market. I know for sure the Benelli B72 was available in it. FWIW the Italian domestic market is restricted to non military calibers.

WonderNine
December 29, 2003, 02:45 AM
Mike, it was Stechkin, a 20-rounder with full-auto mode and detachable shoulder stock/holster.

Hmm, I want one.

Mike Irwin
December 29, 2003, 01:54 PM
"The 7.62x25 is basically the .30 Luger loaded hotter."

No. Wrong round.

The Tokarev round is derived from the 7.62 Mauser, not the shorter and less powerful 7.62 Luger.

Bad Penny 03
December 29, 2003, 05:34 PM
I vaguely recall Sig Sauer made P220's in this cal ( or .30 lug ) during the 80's and poss 90's for the European market.
They had single column 8 or 9 round mags.
Sorry I cant be more specific, didn't really impress me at the time.
From what I hear the 7.62x25 SMG ammo penetrates stuff pretty well.

Check around the Sig site or maybe gun auction sites that might have one or two in stock.

Penman
December 29, 2003, 07:14 PM
Colt supposedly made some .30 Luger Commanders many years ago.

tex_n_cal
December 30, 2003, 12:27 AM
Yep, I have heard Colt did make some .30 Luger Commanders, I think for an overseas police market(Italy?). I traded e-mail with one guy a fewmonths ago, but he wasn't willing to sell the barrel.

Browning has made Hi-Powers in .30 Luger - Ruger also made a few dual caliber.30 Luger/9mm P89's a few years ago, which came with extra barrels.

Cthulhu
December 30, 2003, 01:41 AM
Unfortunately, as mentioned earlier, the .30 Mauser/7.62x25 conversion for an existing 1911 pattern pistol just isn't feasible due to the longer overall length. Its significantly longer than the 10mm, .38Super/9x23 or any other round chambered in standard 1911 pistol. Those Chinese .30 Mauser pistols were hack jobs at best, and are highly questionable. Loading the rounds shorter to fit a conventional OAL isn't a great idea. Doing so reduces the internal volume of the case, raising pressures dramatically. Then the rounds must be loaded down, reducing the performance that we are struggling to achieve and preventing the use of inexpensive surplus ammunition.
Making a 1911 to fit the required dimensions for 7.62x25 is not impossible, but it would be anextremely expensive one-off custom job. An enhanced Tokarev design would be equally expensive. I wouldn't mind an EAA Witness/CZ type but OAL is even more of a problem with the 9mm sized chassis. Anyone who wishes to put up the cash and nag someone to make him one would undoubtedly earn the appreciation of a legion of 7.62x25 fans.

DMK
December 30, 2003, 01:46 AM
I'd like to see some other guns chambered for this round too. Like a match grade 1911... because I suspect this round has much greater accuracy potential than has ever been realized. Especially with properly made ammuntion and not just surplus. I agree. We need something more accurate and ergonmic than the TT-33 or CZ-52. This round shoots flat!

I was watching my brother shoot a CZ-52 last month. He was shooting at the 25 yard line, but I noticed that the rounds were continuing though the target and hitting the berm at 100yards right at about the same height! I even got down low and looked out there with the binoculars as they were hitting.

Man, it you could get a nice comfy pistol with a scope, you could do wonders at long range.

Hmmm, perhaps a 7.26x25 Contender barrel?

WonderNine
December 30, 2003, 01:52 AM
The reason I'm interested in the 7.62X25 is because it's slender so you can fit alot in a double stack mag and for CCW against goblins with light body armor. Also I just like flat shooting rounds.

George Hill
December 30, 2003, 02:16 AM
Cthulhu, you do speak the truth, Sir. However, I would turn your attention to the 1911 style frames used in the LAR Grizzly. If you can load .357 Magnum rounds into one, I am sure you can do X25 with no problems. X25 isnt that much longer than 10MM... it can be done, and done in a manner that wouldn't be too unweildy.

Thinking about this further, I think the ideal platform for such a gun... it is not the 1911. That was an oversight making that suggestion. The proper platform needs to be a gun that has an already outstanding level of accuracy... and to me, that means the CZ-97B. The 97 that I owned was the most accurate handgun that I had ever owned or even fired. Period. Building a 7.62X25 from a 97 would yeild a handgun capable of accuracy that would be just unbelievable.
Given the flat shooting balistics of the round, matched with such as accurate platform... You would be sweeping those long range steel rams like silly... you might be punching holes in them too... *oops*

WonderNine
December 30, 2003, 02:22 AM
George, you're making me want a 97B more and more all the time. :D

Everytime you post about it in fact. :uhoh:

May have to wait until 12 round mags are cheap again though...

George Hill
December 30, 2003, 03:12 AM
It uses the same mags as the Witness... Good and plenty... and cheap.

15 meters, 3 shots, 1 .45 caliber hole... offhand.

Did I mention how accurate it was?

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