[Gouranga]

LOL we have a family friend in from NY for a funeral.

So we are sitting down talking hunting rifles and I tell him I got a Remington R25 IN 308. He is not familiar with it so I start describing it to him and soon as he hears it is one of those AR (which he assumes means assault rifle) he goes off on the question I used to title this thread.

So we go into a 15 minute explanation on what AR really means, what a real assault rifle is, and finally on why my semi-auto .308 is actually a nice hunting rifle. It was an interesting discussion and I really schooled him a lot on firearms and rifles. Wish I had him here longer I would take him to the range. I guess the point was, with a little real information I turned someone dead set against evil AR platform rifles, into someone for them with a 20 minute conversation. I have to wonder how may of the brainwashed masses out there would be swayed in the same manner.

[Rail Driver]

That's like explaining to my Michigan born and raised mother and sisters that "No it's not a machine gun, no I don't have to have a license or permit for it, and yes you can shoot it!"

[hso]

AR =/= Assault Rifle but instead ARmalite Rifle is quite a revelation to many.

The fact that there are plenty of semiauto hunting rifles is also a revelation to some.

Getting someone to understand that the only difference between an AR-type and their semiauto hunter is the direct gas impingement action over the action in their rifle often "flips a switch" mentally.

[EddieNFL]

About 18 or 19 years ago I was discussing firearms with an uneducated co-worker. When I mentioned I owned AR15s, his facial expression change and he stated, "I see no use whatsoever for those. You can't hunt with them. If you shot a deer there wouldn't be anything left to skin." Never could convince him the 5.56/.223 cartridge was considered minimal at best for deer sized game or that rifle design had nothing to do with bullet performance on the target.

[TexasRifleman]

Need? No.

Want? Oh very much yes :evil:

No one NEEDS a car with air conditioning and heating either really. But if it came down to it I could justify a need for firearms easier than a need for air conditioning.

[mljdeckard]

This is why I'm building an AR-10. When people say, "You can't hunt with that", I will tell them, "I hunt with nothing BUT AR-pattern rifles."

[M1key]

Yes. the wildlife has been gettin' pretty uppity as of late...:cool:

[atlctyslkr]

Yes

[gunnutery]

You really need all that firepower?

Lord willing, no, I will never NEED it...But I'd rather need it and have it than need it and not have it. Just watch the local news, someone somewhere needed firepower today.

Until I NEED the firepower, I will enjoy shooting it at the range for entertainment and betterment of skills.

[Robert Wilson]

No one NEEDS a car with air conditioning and heating either really. But if it came down to it I could justify a need for firearms easier than a need for air conditioning.

I think a better comparison would be the guy with the Hummer who's painted it in desert camouflage and mounted a fake machine gun: it's not about need so much as state of mind.

I try not to begrudge the guys who hunt with their ARs. After all, I've hunted 200 pound animals with elephant rifles, so I've got no right to talk. But I do understand people who question why someone would want to walk around in the woods with a 10 pound high-capacity semi-automatic intended to replicate our military's service weapons.

[Cards81fan]

But if it came down to it I could justify a need for firearms easier than a need for air conditioning.
That says a lot, coming from a Texan :) I have been in San Antonio, unloading a moving truck, on the 4th of July. I would have sold all my guns for glass of lemondade or iced tea (or a Lone Star ;) ), and perhaps even my soul for air conditioning if we didn't have it!


To the OP, I think his question was actually pretty innocent. I certainly understand that a .308 is not an excessive amount of firepower (.338 Lapua, anyone??) but for the average city folk who does not hunt it is more that one would need (for home defense, target shooting).

But then again, it's not about need, at all, is it? We buy what we like, and what we want! Good on you sir for educating those who do now know.

Our rights need not be restricted to only what others deem as practical.

[Deanimator]

I try not to begrudge the guys who hunt with their ARs. After all, I've hunted 200 pound animals with elephant rifles, so I've got no right to talk. But I do understand people who question why someone would want to walk around in the woods with a 10 pound high-capacity semi-automatic intended to replicate our military's service weapons.
I "understand" people who question why someone would want to walk around in the woods with a bolt action intended to replicate our military's service sniper weapons, the M40 and M24.

See how that works?

Of course I can "understand" people who question why someone would HUNT, with ANYTHING.

[Robert Wilson]

I "understand" people who question why someone would want to walk around in the woods with a bolt action intended to replicate our military's service sniper weapons, the M40 and M24.

See how that works?

Yes, I do - but probably not in quite the way you intended. I wonder about the state of mind of people who hunt with "sniper" replicas myself - especially when they could have saved money by buying the same rifle in "non-sniper" trim.

I take dangerous game rifles afield partly because I enjoy pretending (in a grown-up sort of way, of course :o) that I'm hunting dangerous game. So it's natural for me to wonder what a fellow is pretending to be when he's walking around with a rifle styled after one intended for killing people.

[Deanimator]

Yes, I do - but probably not in quite the way you intended. I wonder about the state of mind of people who hunt with "sniper" replicas myself - especially when they could have saved money by buying the same rifle in "non-sniper" trim.
Can you cite for me any MEANINGFUL difference between a .308 varmint rifle or a .308 long range target rifle and a .308 "sniper" rifle? Can you explain what stops me (or Carlos Hathcock) from sniping with a .308 target rifle, or from hunting with a .308 sniper rifle? If you can, you'll be the first in 20+ years.

And I haven't checked in a while, but Savage 10FP and 110FP sniper rifles were always one of the best bargains going. It's why I bought a 10FP. I tried to get a 110FP in .30-06, but they'd stopped making them and I had to settle for a 112BVSS in .30-06. Don't think for one instant that a 112BVSS isn't every bit as good of a sniper rifle as the 10FP... or a Remington 700 PSS for that matter... and with a significant accuracy advantage at long range in the bargain.

Sniper rifles are REALLY "different" from varmint and target rifles... unless you've shot all three.

[Robert Wilson]

There is no meaningful functional difference between a "sniper" rifle and any old bolt action. There is no meaningful difference between an AR and a Remington 7400, at least until you put a high-cap magazine into the AR. The only difference is in appearance, which is why I would never support laws against any of them. But being as there's no meaningful difference in function, then the rifles are being purchased for their appearance. Which again leads me to wonder about the mindset of their owners: they obviously want a weapon that mimics the appearance of weapons meant for killing people.

FWIW, as a young man, I owned both AR-15s and "sniper" rifles. I owned them because I thought they were cool-looking and because I bought into the "romantic" notions of battle. As an older man I have seen all the violence and death I care to, so battle rifles no longer hold any attraction for me.

[Deanimator]

But being as there's no meaningful difference in function, then the rifles are being purchased for their appearance. Which again leads me to wonder about the mindset of their owners: they obviously want a weapon that mimics the appearance of weapons meant for killing people.
I have to worry about damaging the finish of my 10FP a LOT less than I would another rifle.

Personally, I wonder about the "mindset" of somebody who'd actually CARE whether MY rifle was blued or parkerized.

[Robert Wilson]

Lots of rifles have tough finishes.

And I don't care about your rifle's finish. In point of fact, I barely care if you are hunting with an M-16, as long as you are using an appropriate bullet. I just wonder about your fantasy life. :p

[Mp7]

Sqirrels get big as boars around here. And they started packing slingshots ...

Yes.

[EddieNFL]

But I do understand people who question why someone would want to walk around in the woods with a 10 pound high-capacity semi-automatic intended to replicate our military's service weapons.

I understand as well; it's either ignorance or the, "I don't need it, so why does anyone else," attitude. Gun control advocates are very good at exploiting these attitudes. Such attitudes gave us the AWB of '94.

[Messenger Guard]

They have all been conditioned by the media. Glad you could bring him back before it was too late.

[Robert Wilson]

I understand as well; it's either ignorance or the, "I don't need it, so why does anyone else," attitude. Gun control advocates are very good at exploiting these attitudes. Such attitudes gave us the AWB of '94

I disagree. And I'm fairly sure my opinions did not lead to the AWB of 1994.

[Badlander]

In Fla. you can hunt with an AR but not A high cap mag. You can also drive A ferrari, but you can't drive 150 mph. use what you like I have no problem with it.

[Deanimator]

I disagree. And I'm fairly sure my opinions did not lead to the AWB of 1994.
It's EXACTLY what got us the AWB. "You don't need x to hunt deer!", as if hunting were the only reason to own a rifle. Hunting is a VERY minimal reason for me to own ANY firearm. I've hunted deer and North Koreans about the same number of times since 1980. The last time I used a firearm in self-defense it was an HK93 with a 40 round magazine.

[therewolf]

The sad truth is perception and reality are so different in this instance.

A Garand semi's 30.06, devastating compared to mere .308s and 5.56s.

But you don't see any sheeple running around going "O-M-G, A GARAND!

ISN'T THAT TOO MUCH FIREPOWER?" Media hype and political propaganda have

so warped the layman's view, that they no longer have a grip on practical

reality.:scrutiny:

[bushmaster1313]

I must say I am shocked to read that someone on this Forum has an EBR

[Deanimator]

A Garand semi's 30.06, devastating compared to mere .308s and 5.56s.

But you don't see any sheeple running around going "O-M-G, A GARAND!
Actually, wasn't that EXACTLY the argument recently against importing ex-Korean militia M1s?

[Carlos Cabeza]

ANY rifle or shotgun with a black polymer stock featuring a hand grip scares the sheep.......................The stigma is the liberal media's rendition of "firepower" :p Everybody knows ;) that you can't discuss firepower until you get into belt fed crew served BB guns !:p

[BullfrogKen]

Do you really need all those televisions? How about a car capable of breaking the speed limit? How about all that junk food?


I have problems with people who feel the need to tell others what they should and should not do.

[Tim the student]

Robert, why are the looks of a rifle throwing you for loops? You think it boils down to a fantasy of wanting to kill people?

Which again leads me to wonder about the mindset of their owners: they obviously want a weapon that mimics the appearance of weapons meant for killing people.

Meant for killing people huh? You mean like a 1903?:rolleyes: So, do you hold the same opinion about guys that use hundred year old bolt guns, or do you only hold that argument for the AR guys?

at least until you put a high-cap magazine into the AR.

Do you mean a capacity of 20 or 30? That is standard, not high capacity.

[therewolf]

My point, Deanimator, is that ARs and "black rifles" have gotten so much bad

press that most people have flawed perceptions pertaining to the actual

situation.

[Deanimator]

My point, Deanimator, is that ARs and "black rifles" have gotten so much bad press that most people have flawed perceptions pertaining to the actual situation.
My point is that the "argument" such as it is, is infinitely expandable to cover ANY firearm, from a Kalashnikov to a Pennsylvania rifle. But then dishonesty is like that, and anti-gunners are nothing if not dishonest to a fault.

[Robert Wilson]

It's EXACTLY what got us the AWB.

I still disagree. What got us the ABR was the same thing that has gotten us nearly all our gun laws: the desire of some people to ban any guns possible with any pretense.

[Walkalong]

Actually, wasn't that EXACTLY the argument recently against importing ex-Korean militia M1s? Yep, exactly.

What got us the ABR was the same thing that has gotten us nearly all our gun laws: the desire of some people to ban any guns possible with any pretense.
That is part of it for sure, but the antis use the "you don't need it" argument a great deal and it was a big part of the AWB.

They can not win with logic, so they use scare tactics and false statements. It's dangerous, it's too powerful (They show a watermelon being shot with an .06 and pretend it's a .223), it's not "needed', etc, etc.

[Robert Wilson]

Robert, why are the looks of a rifle throwing you for loops? You think it boils down to a fantasy of wanting to kill people?

Not directly. I think many people buy these guns because of the perceived romance of battle; the heroism, sacrifice, and excitement inherent to it.

Meant for killing people huh? You mean like a 1903? So, do you hold the same opinion about guys that use hundred year old bolt guns, or do you only hold that argument for the AR guys?

Only the guys with the modern rifles, including AKs, FN/FALs, and the like. I assume the guys using 100 year old battle rifles are just broke. :evil:

Do you mean a capacity of 20 or 30? That is standard, not high capacity.

Not in the hunting field, and not when compared to the standard magazine of the OPs AR pattern rifle.

[Walkalong]

Not directly. I think many people buy these guns because of the perceived romance of battle; the heroism, sacrifice, and excitement inherent to it.
I think they buy them because they are reliable, versatile, accurate, have tons of options to suit ones taste, and are just plain fun. Most AR owners end up with more than one. That says a great deal. I have never met someone who shot mine without a big smile when their done. Even the media influenced folks who fear the look give a big smile and realize at the same time that it is a gun like any other. The owner is either good or bad, but the gun is just a gun. Love seeing the light bulb go on for some people.

Not in the hunting fieldIt is still standard capacity, whether one thinks it is more than needed for hunting or not.

[Robert Wilson]

Lest folks decide to "Zumbo" my THR writing career (Hah!) I'll try to make my point as simple as possible:

When I see a guy in the woods with a traditional muzzleloader, I assume he's excited about history and enjoys emulating an old buckskinner.

When I see a guy in the woods with a double rifle, I assume he's excited about dangerous game hunting and enjoys emulating an African hunter.

When I see a guy in the woods with a Lightning pump and a matching SAA, I assume he's excited about the old West and enjoys emulating a cowboy.

And when I see a guy in the woods with an AR, I assume he's excited about warfare and enjoys emulating a soldier.

Maybe I've been brainwashed by the media, but I still feel an urge to keep an eye on the guy who's excited about warfare.

[Robert Wilson]

I think they buy them because they are reliable, versatile, accurate, have tons of options to suit ones taste, and are just plain fun.

Lots of guns are reliable and versatile. And lots of guns are more accurate than the average AR. Options I can understand, but those options usually seem to involve hanging "tactical" stuff on an accessory rail, which just reinforces my opinion that there's some ninja-wannabe stuff going on here. Just plain fun? Great - but why are they any more fun than anything else?

It is still standard capacity, whether one thinks it is more than needed for hunting or not.

What is the standard capacity of the OP's rifle, please?

[eye5600]

There seem to be plenty of guys who want a military-styled rifle and a 30-round magazine, and who think the way to enjoy it is to empty the mag as quickly as possible. I don't get it, but there are lots of other recreational activities that I also don't get, like sliding down a snowy mountain on thin boards.

But it's relevant.

There is really no proof that gun ownership leads to crime or any other kind of problem. All the people who are moan that lax gun laws lead to bad results are making it up. Those guys with the AR-15 are not showing up on the police blotter. Gangs tend to have AKs and Mini-14s because they are cheaper, and even then, that's mostly for bragging rights. Most of the actual shootings are done with hand guns.

[Walkalong]

And when I see a guy in the woods with an AR, I assume he's excited about warfare and enjoys emulating a soldier.

Maybe I've been brainwashed by the media, but I still feel an urge to keep an eye on the guy who's excited about warfare.
I'll go with "brainwashed by the media", and/or just want to argue.

[Robert Wilson]

I'll admit that I like to argue about the topic, simply because owners of military-style semi-autos brook no discussion or dissent on the matter. I figure any topic that induces so much defensiveness and emotion deserves evaluation.

And I'll admit that I may indeed be brainwashed. TV is a powerful medium.

But I'll also note that your post is a dodge. :neener:

[Arkansas Paul]

Ok, lets just ask the question outright.
Robert, do you think AR type semi autos should be allowed, or not?
This question is coming from someone who does not even own a semi auto rifle other than the .22 variety, I just want to hear it straight.

[Robert Wilson]

Yes, I absolutely think AR style semi-autos should be allowed.

[xcgates]

Geee, I want to get an AR style rifle because it has been what I have (limited) experience with in the military. Perhaps I just like the way it feels/works/handles?

What do you think the mosin nagant in my closet was produced/designed for?

What do you think the Ducati ST3 in my garage was designed for? It is my daily driver, and can easily exceed 100 mph. Yet I manage (knock on wood) to have never been pulled over, not to mention get a ticket. (I put less than 50 miles on cages per week, including the work truck I very occasionally take out.)

That said, on the back and forth with Robert, I also wonder what goes on in the mind of males that sport long hair and tight pants (apparently the *in* thing with highschoolers), but that doesn't mean I think hairstyles and tight pants should be regulated. I'll laugh and make some comment, and they will laugh and make a comment about my buzzed hair and ABUs. Fair is fair, right?

But all this is side-tracking from the OP. To him/her I say: every time I have taken a gun newbie to the range, it has been a positive experience. And lets just say that I planted some ideas in my uncle's mind that my aunt didn't really appreciate. (They are from California, and she pretty much is the definition of "helicopter parent")

[Unistat]

That's like explaining to my Michigan born and raised mother and sisters that "No it's not a machine gun, no I don't have to have a license or permit for it, and yes you can shoot it!"

If they are from Michigan, they should know better. Our laws are not that different from Florida's except for the entirely ridiculous pistol registration. Certainly there is no restriction on what firearms you can own here.

[Unistat]

I'll admit that I like to argue about the topic, simply because owners of military-style semi-autos brook no discussion or dissent on the matter. I figure any topic that induces so much defensiveness and emotion deserves evaluation.

And I'll admit that I may indeed be brainwashed. TV is a powerful medium.

But I'll also note that your post is a dodge.

Yes, I absolutely think AR style semi-autos should be allowed.

This is normally called trolling.

[Robert Wilson]

Geee, I want to get an AR style rifle because it has been what I have (limited) experience with in the military. Perhaps I just like the way it feels/works/handles?

I think that's a perfectly valid reason, not that anyone needs approval from me.

What do you think the mosin nagant in my closet was produced/designed for?

I never see the creepy "tactical/ninja/warrior" types playing with old milsurps. Though we all stayed the hell away from that guy with the Luger and the swastikas...

What do you think the Ducati ST3 in my garage was designed for?

Separating rich middle aged squids from their money, just like my 748. :neener:

[Robert Wilson]

This is normally called trolling.

Only by people who don't know what trolling is. Everyone else calls it "debate".

[Carlos Cabeza]

30 is / was the standard magazine capacity, The 20 round was introduced to eliminate/ minimize complications feeding the cartridge. High Reliability or HR. You can get 40 round magazines or even a C-mag which is 100 rounds. I wouldn't bet my six on either of those.
but then again,..............what do I know........................

[Robert Wilson]

Per Remington, the standard capacity of the R-25 is four. Not that that's actually important to the discussion.

[Walkalong]

your post is a dodgePossibly, and that is just a taunt.

Lets say they ban all AR's from the hunting fields. We will assume they stop all AR's from being sold but we can keep the ones we have.

Next will be the other semi auto rifles. (They will have tried to get them with hidden wording in the AR ban (Like they have tried before with various gun ban bills), but we won that one for now)

So, the 742 and the BAR (and others) hold what? 4 or 5 rounds?

You do not "need" 4 or 5 rounds to kill a deer. You do not "need" those rifles will be the next wave of gun grabbing BS.

After they get those it will be some other scare tactic about whatever we have left. They will never stop because of what you posted earlier, they just want to take all of our guns. We must not fall into the trap of calling things something they are not and falling into the "we don't need" trap.

[Walkalong]

Only by people who don't know what trolling is. Everyone else calls it "debate". It can be a very fine line, and you are teetering on the edge IMO. Definitely in the gray are in the middle.

[Robert Wilson]

Possibly, and that is just a taunt.

That's apparently a matter of perspective.

Lets say they ban all AR's from the hunting fields. We will assume they stop all AR's from being sold but we can keep the ones we have.

Why? I don't think anybody here has expressed any support for a ban. I simply expressed an understanding and illustration of why people might look askance at military-styled semi-autos for hunting. You don't have to accept it or agree with it; it's just a difference in opinion.

[Robert Wilson]

It can be a very fine line, and you are teetering on the edge IMO. Definitely in the gray are in the middle.

I think you are reading between the lines and discovering things that don't exist in my posts. I'd go back and read the thread again, carefully. I think it is a good illustration of my contention that any dissent among the ranks, on this particular topic, inspires immediate and strident defensiveness.

[Carlos Cabeza]

You Sir, are an excellent angler. Perhaps you should frequent a fishing board ??!!!?!

[Walkalong]

You Sir, are an excellent angler
Yep.

[Walkalong]

inspires immediate and strident defensiveness. I am merely trying to show why we must not fall into the antis trap, which is the side you are "debating".

[Robert Wilson]

You've made that point, and I understand it. But I do not consider it the main point of the discussion.

At any rate, I've apparently been dismissed as a troll, which I suppose is about what I should have expected on the topic. So enjoy the rest of your day.

[Walkalong]

But I do not consider it the main point of the discussion.

I do.

I've apparently been dismissed as a troll
If anyone has "dismissed" you, it will be for your content and demeanor.

[Carlos Cabeza]

Here is your answer Mr. Wilson. TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT ! Ten years ago I got "looks" and jeers. Everytime I was in the field, the Game Warden just had to look it over and check regulation compliance. This year ??????? Everyone has one in camoflage in calibers unheard of in the platform just a few years ago.

Calculator or PC ?

[Art Eatman]

Tossing opinions back and forth is just that: Opinionating. It's not debate, since debates usually present facts for discussion.

And so goodnight Sweet Prince and all that...

:D