Need advice on legal problem(military related)


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Aikibiker
December 25, 2003, 05:10 PM
I have been trying to join the Army. I have a few questionable things on my medical record. My recruiter and the head of the recruiting station told me to lie on all of the forms. This Monday I went to MEPS in Jacksonville FL. Of course I am no fool and told the truth on all the forms. The people at MEPS were very nice (in an overworked sort of way) they told me what I would need to get waivers and join the service and sent me home.

When I got back to Daytona the head of the recruiting station was furious that I hadn't lied to get in. He had twice given me briefings before leaving for MEPS where he specifically told me to lie on the medical forms. I let him know how I felt about his treatment of my future and that I had learned from other people that came from Daytona that he had done it to them as well. I know for a fact some of them followed that bad advice.

I still want to serve my country but the Army has left a rather bad taste in my mouth after this incident. What I want to know is if the recruiters violated any laws of regulation by their actions. The UCMJ is not my area of expertise, but in civilian terms I would call this a criminal conspiracy and take it to the DA. I don't want to get anyone in trouble but it is apparent to me that these guys are doing this to every person that goes through their recruiting station. Is their anyone I could take this too that could handle the situation in an informal way?

I am also thinking of going in and talking to the Air Force. Do you think they will hold this business with the Army against me?

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thefitzvh
December 25, 2003, 05:45 PM
You need to make a stink. A recruiting station commander telling you to lie is breaking the law, and is not the kind of NCO i want in my armed forces.

Call his commander, and if he's not punished, call the person above. All the way up the chain.


James

minnesota oldie
December 25, 2003, 06:02 PM
Yes he did violate the UCMJ and yes his boss needs to know. Retired Military.

Lennyjoe
December 25, 2003, 06:30 PM
You did the right thing by telling the truth.

The individuals that instructed you to lie on your forms have dishonored themselves and need to be recognized.

I am also thinking of going in and talking to the Air Force. Do you think they will hold this business with the Army against me?
No they wont hold it against you. Explain to them what happened and how you were treated. They will know who to contact. If the Air Force recruiters mistreat you then by all means let me know. A good friend of mine is the Regional Director for all the Air Force recruiters in the Georgia/Florida area.

cameroneod
December 25, 2003, 06:51 PM
Telling recruits to lie is wrong, but a VERY common practice. So is lying/bending the truth to get you to join. I seriously doubt that anything will happen to the recruiter because of it. Buy by all means, give it a shot.

Quartus
December 25, 2003, 06:57 PM
My recruiter and the head of the recruiting station told me to lie on all of the forms.

Not unusual, but YES, you should bust him.

Had you lied on the forms and gotten caught after you were sworn in, you might have done time in Leavenworth. At the LEAST you'd have gotten a less than Honorable discharge. It's called fraudulent enlistment. It's a Federal FELONY.

IOW, he was willing to screw up your life FOREVER so he could meet his quotas.


Bust him.


And don't let it sour you on serving your country. There are good and bad in every group.

spartacus2002
December 25, 2003, 07:10 PM
If you lie during your recruiting process, you could be prosecuted while on active duty for Fraudulent Enlistment, depending on what you lied about.

Don't do it.

Recruiter misconduct gets recruits in trouble for the issue in my first sentence above. Report them.

Redlg155
December 25, 2003, 07:33 PM
I'd go ahead and talk to his commander. They are under a lot of stress to make their quotas, but that still is no reason coach recruits to lie.

I highly suggest that you do not sign any waiver to enlist unless you are absolutely certain that being in the military will not aggravate your condition. Doing so makes it extremely difficult to obtain VA benefits in the future should you be medically discharged.

The Air Force guy shouldn't have any problems since they also have quotas to meet provided that you meet the minimum ASVAB scores for what you want. Of course you will have to go through the same medical exams and more than likely will be asked to sign or produce a waiver as a term of enlistment. Again...I advise against it.

There are many other ways to serve your country. I'd check into a GS position. We need good folks supporting the guys in the field. The guys in the field can do NOTHING without good support from the rear.

Good Shooting
Red

brookstexas
December 25, 2003, 07:35 PM
1- Will the Air Force hold it against you?
No, but all the services use the same doctors at MEPS. If you admitted to asthma, heart conditions etc. the Air Force will know and being disqualified for one 99% of the time means all.
NOW that I've said that the waiver process is by different folks in each branch. The Air Force is about the toughest to join for all standards so good luck!
BTW-
Recruiters have a very difficult job, especially those that aren't in the mid-west. There is a old joke about EVERY recruit is medically disqualified until the recruiter makes them so. At the MEPS where I was they ask each applicant have you ever had Asthma like symptoms or been told you might have Asthma? Even if your neighbors wife or the mailman told you and you were honest and said yes they would send you home. This happened EVERY week.
I'm not saying recruiters should tell someone to conceal a heart condition but every applicant must be coached as to how the game is played.

Standing Wolf
December 25, 2003, 07:36 PM
I don't want to get anyone in trouble but...

Yes, you do, and well you should—and refusing to tell lies is commendable.

brookstexas
December 25, 2003, 07:38 PM
If you make a complaint about an Army recruiter lying it's 98% nothing will happen unless you have it on video. The recruiting Commanders get their promotions based on their recruiters success stats, they are aware of what is going on.

Quartus
December 25, 2003, 07:47 PM
Yup. So don't take it to his commander. Research the chain of command and take your complaing - IN WRITING - as high as you can go, AND CC YOUR SENATOR AND CONGRESS CRITTER.


Fur will fly.


:D

voilsb
December 25, 2003, 08:14 PM
L - Loyalty
D - Duty
R - Respect
S - Selfless Service
H - Honor
I - Integrity
P - Personal Courage

I say report it. In addition to any UCMJ stuff it might be, it'd definitely an Army Values violation, which the Army takes incredibly seriously. Although honestly, it's still likely to be ignored because it's a recruiter and he was trying to allow you to enlist. It doesn't change what happened, but it'll probably get overlooked due to the motivation behind it.

Blackcloud6
December 25, 2003, 09:05 PM
Write a letter to the commander of the recruiting district explaining why you decided not to pursue recruitment in the Army. This person should be a Captain. Send a copy of the letter to your Congressman.

Oh and this is BS: The recruiting Commanders get their promotions based on their recruiters success stats,

Officers are promoted by a central army board that reviews the entire career of the officers up for promotion.

You did the right thing by telling the truth.

As a Reserve Lieutenant Colonel, you have my apologies on behalf of the US Army.

thorbry
December 25, 2003, 09:40 PM
What medical conditions are you talking about. Did he actually tell you to lie or just omit nonpertinent info. When I went in they asked questions about broken bones, if I had reported the 25 or so I had at the time, none of which impacted by physical capabilities, I would have had to write an explanation for each. My knees were another matter, when we had to duck walk across the room I was almost in tears but was able to suffer through it, If I had reported my discomfort they would have put a 18 month hold on me.

Are the waiver that you will now be forced to get going to make you more or less fit for service than you are now. I have to believe that the recruiters would not have put themselves in jepordy by telling you to lie about serious medical issues.

Sean Smith
December 25, 2003, 09:50 PM
The recruiter is running a criminal enterprise. If somebody like that was one of my subordinates when I was in the Army, I would most certainly make him wear his behind for a hat. I have no stomach for unethical scumbags.

Simplest thing to do is to report him to the nearest Army Inspector General's office.

Quartus
December 25, 2003, 09:55 PM
I have to believe that the recruiters would not have put themselves in jepordy by telling you to lie about serious medical issues.


[phoney Chinese priest accent]

Grasshopper, you have much to learn.

[/phoney Chinese priest accent]

:D



You were SERIOUS?!?:what:

thorbry
December 25, 2003, 10:43 PM
You were SERIOUS?!?
Yes I was I am friends with several recruiters from the different branches and have had similar conversations with them, from their info they could be held criminally liable if they advise someone to lie about severe medical problems that result in a recruits death or injury.
I also think this whole issue is being blow way out of proportion, especially with only one side of half a story.

Aikibiker
December 25, 2003, 11:02 PM
The medical problems I have are nonexistent problems just paperwork that has to be taken care of. I was misdiagnosed with ADD as a I child. I brought the paper saying I do not have ADD but the medical personnel at MEPS needed to see the original diagnosis. Dotting the I's and crossing the T's sort of thing. I also had bronchitis as a child. (I had no idea it was disqualifier) The MEPS folks said that would also be no problem if I brought in a medical record of it they would run a test to make sure I had no fluid in my lungs or something like that (I am not a doctor so I couldn't really follow everything they said) and I would be good to go.

thorbry,

Yes, the recruiter told me in so many words to check every box on the medical questionnaire "no." I got the impression it was more a convenience thing for the recruiters so they would not have to do extra paperwork to get a waiver. (I am not a psychic either, that is just what my gut is telling me)

I don't really have a problem with getting the recruiters in trouble, they knew what they were doing and they knew the consequences. My real worry is the hundreds of people from Daytona that have joined the army since these recruiters have been here. Will my blowing the whistle lead to an investigation that is going to get a lot of people felony charges and lead to them not being able to work and feed their families? I know they should have known better too, but most of them would have been fresh out of high school at the time and ignorant of the world and adult consequences.

Sergeant Bob
December 25, 2003, 11:24 PM
I was misdiagnosed with ADD as a I child. I brought the paper saying I do not have ADD but the medical personnel at MEPS needed to see the original diagnosis.
ADD???? Wow! A fad diagnosis by some incompetant doctor can keep you out of the military? Pretty soon they'll be using it to deny access to guns.

Aikibiker
December 25, 2003, 11:29 PM
It wasn't the ADD it was the fact that when you have it you go to a psychiatrist. (ADD is considered a mental health problem) One of the questions is if you have ever visited a mental health professional. That is apparently a big nono. Must be that "stigma" thing they told us about in my Psych classes at UCF.

tyme
December 26, 2003, 12:04 AM
Whoa, so because I talked to the school shrink in HS (once, before he looked at the MMPI-A results and decided either that I wasn't a problem or that I was hopeless), I'd have trouble volunteering for the military?

Or does the problem only exist if there was both a visit to a shrink and some sort of DSM-IV diagnosis? (I guess it's DSM-IV-TR these days.)

thorbry
December 26, 2003, 01:18 AM
I got the impression it was more a convenience thing for the recruiters so they would not have to do extra paperwork to get a waiver
As far as I know from what I went through when I reenlisted after a 6 year absence you are the one that now has the inconvience of securing the waivers
Despite all the critism of the recruiter he knows the ins and outs of the process and how things really work in the real world. It seems to me that he was giving you the benefit of his experience and you for whatever reason, which I don't necessarily fault you for, did not follow his directions. If you had you would be waiting for a departure date instead of jumping through the military's well know paper hoops over a trivial matter.
If you do get into the military you will find that it is usually easier to go around the paperwork mountain than to go through it. If it had been found out that you did not fill the paperwork out exactly right on this issue the worst that would have happen would be a trip to the wizard AFTER you were in. And that's from personal experience, and mine was a severe legal issue.
Rrcruiters are not always the evil souless blackhearted bastards that they are made out to be.

nsmike
December 26, 2003, 02:03 AM
I commend you on not lying. I would contact my congressman's office and ask for help in getting the waiver. It will keep you from relying on a recruiter who has already cut corners and is untrustwothy. I suspect that you won't have any real problems getting the waiver. Understand that recruiters do not get full credit for recuits that need waivers so if a recuiter is not making his numbers there is a big incentive to fudge. The down side is that if you lie you are setting yourself up for a fall, even if it is not found immediatly you would have to worry every time you need a security clearence.

Aikibiker
December 26, 2003, 03:22 AM
Whoa, so because I talked to the school shrink in HS (once, before he looked at the MMPI-A results and decided either that I wasn't a problem or that I was hopeless), I'd have trouble volunteering for the military?

Yep, remember the .gov doesn't have to make sense. They just have take your money and anything else they want.

Quartus
December 26, 2003, 08:43 AM
ADD???? Wow! A fad diagnosis by some incompetant doctor can keep you out of the military? Pretty soon they'll be using it to deny access to guns.


Yup.


But the "diagnosis" is more likely to have been made by a TEACHER and rubber stamped by a "doctor".

THAT should give us all a warm fuzzy!

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