Bushmaster AR15 Pistol


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XavierBreath
December 25, 2003, 05:40 PM
I'm considering this as my next pistol. Anyone have any experience with it? If one was able to add a stock to it later, would that be legal?

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Bushmaster-Pistol/MVC-001F.jpg

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Bushmaster-Pistol/Mvc-017F.jpg

http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster-Pistol.htm

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/az-c15p97.asp

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Valkman
December 25, 2003, 05:53 PM
I have one I got when it was made by Pro Ordnance. I bought it when I lived in CA and the AWB was about to into effect, along with a 100 round mag. I didn't shoot it for a long time and was suprised to find the Carbon-15 line did not have a good reputation when I got into online forums. Many were jam-o-matics and really disappointed people who paid alot money for them. I finally took mine out a couple of weeks ago and it shot great with a variety of 30 round mags.

If you put a stock on it it becomes a rifle with an illegally short barrel - don't do that.

I think it's be safe to by these from Bushmaster as they should be well made and have some support if something happens.

CleverNickname
December 25, 2003, 06:23 PM
You could put a stock on it, you'd just have to get a >16" barrelled upper to use with it too. But if you're going to do that, you might as just well get one of the Carbon-15 rifles.

Hkmp5sd
December 25, 2003, 07:22 PM
Send the government a completed ATF Form 1 and $200 and you can put a stock on it. With a Form 1 and $5, you can put a vertical foregrip on it.

Amish_Bill
December 25, 2003, 07:40 PM
Send the government a completed ATF Form 1 and $200 and you can put a stock on it. With a Form 1 and $5, you can put a vertical foregrip on it.
Uh, negative on half of that....

You can transfer an existing AOW for $5 or an SBR for $200, but the making tax is still $200 on each.

Hkmp5sd
December 25, 2003, 09:01 PM
Ooops, you right. I keep forgetting that everything is $200 to make. Brain fade. Only about the 10th time I've screwed that up this year.

XavierBreath
December 25, 2003, 09:37 PM
Quick question...........
Since this firearm is serial numbered as a PISTOL do the same rules apply, or would it simply be a pistol with a stock attached like the 1911 conversions, Lugers and such?

Double Naught Spy
December 25, 2003, 09:49 PM
Somebody help me to understand why you would want a high dollar AR15 pistol that ends up being so compromised that you end up with basically fast and heavy .22 lr rounds because of the velocity loss of the short barrel, extra loud report because of the short barrel, tremendous muzzle flash because of the short barrel, but with the expense of shooting .223 instead of .22?

Seriously, these only generate about 1500 fps I was told. Does that sound right? That is well below optimal velocities for anything related to defense where you want the round to fragment.

See those trees behind the guy? Notice there are no leaves. Take that as a clue that the muzzle flash is a little extreme. :eek:

So is the guy in the picture Santa Claus when his hair is cut for North Pole Militia duty? Tell me true!

voilsb
December 25, 2003, 10:09 PM
Somebody help me to understand why you would want a ...Because it would be cool.

Hkmp5sd
December 25, 2003, 10:45 PM
Since this firearm is serial numbered as a PISTOL do the same rules apply

The NFA defines a firearm as:
The term "firearm" means a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches, or any other weapon, except a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machine gun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within the foregoing definition.

According to ATF, attaching a shoulder stock to a pistol causes that pistol to become a firearm covered by the NFA because it now meets the definition of "a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length."

If you take a pistol receiver and attach both a shoulder stock and barrel >16", it does not meet the NFA's definition of a firearm and is therefore not restricted.

ATF has also ruled that if you turn a pistol into a rifle and then remove the long barrel and stock, the receiver returns to a pistol classification. They do not hold to the "once a rifle, always a rifle" ruling that requires a pistol made from a rifle receiver be registered as a SBR.

And if all of that wasn't confusing enough, even if attaching a shoulder stock to the AR-15 pistol didn't make it an NFA weapon, you still couldn't attach a shoulder stock. The shoulder stock would put the pistol over the 50 ounce weight limit of the assault weapon ban for pistols in which the magazine is not inserted into the pistol grip.

Amish_Bill
December 26, 2003, 08:46 AM
As I understood it, the weight limit is "as manufactured", not as you have it currently configured. --> 921(a) (30) (C) (iv)
921(a) (30) Definition of semiauto assualt weapons
(30) The term ``semiautomatic assault weapon'' means--
(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms
in any caliber, known as--
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat
Kalashnikovs (all models);
(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to)
the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the
action of the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to
accommodate a flash suppressor; and
(v) a grenade launcher;

(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a
detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--
(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol
outside of the pistol grip;
(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel
extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or
completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to
hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the
pistol is unloaded; and
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the
action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Hkmp5sd
December 26, 2003, 10:21 AM
It is my understanding the 50 ounces "manufactured" means no magazine or bullets. The law doesn't distinguish between originally manufactured or customized later as being re-manufactured. Snapping on a scope would be an accessory and OK. Replacing the barrel with a longer one, putting the weight over 50 would be an alteration to the gun itself and not-OK.

But, I could be wrong. Been known to happen before. :)

Jack19
December 26, 2003, 07:11 PM
Remind me to put on the SPF 45 when firing that beastie. lol

Valkman
December 27, 2003, 01:06 AM
I'd forgotten something when I wrote how well mine did when I shot it - it keyholed over half of the 120 shots fired! Don't know what is causing that, but it's not good at only 10 yards. :) I'm gonna have to call Bushy and see what they say.

Amish_Bill
December 27, 2003, 01:18 AM
I'm still wondering if Tromix can whip up a pistol upper for their .458 Socom round....

....Hhhmmmm.... They make a 10.5" version for machineguns... I suspect that would work nicely on a pistol... Oh Yeah!

444
December 27, 2003, 01:44 AM
Now there is another question: Could you replace the upper with something like a .458 Socom upper ? I can't see why not.
I am quite sure I wouldn't want one. My .458 Socom rife is more than I want to deal with.

artherd
December 27, 2003, 05:17 AM
Does this thing make 2700fps (in which case, nice!) or 1700fps (sad.) ?

444
December 27, 2003, 07:39 AM
I am not sure of the muzzle velocity of the 5.56 in a 7.5" barrel. I am pretty sure it would give you closer to 2700 than 1700. I have an 11.5" barrel (with the long flash suppressor) which I have chronoed with various ammo and I know it will give you 2700 briefly.
However, I am not sure it matters.
1) this is a fun gun. I doubt that anyone buys this with intention of augmenting their armchair commando arsenal.
2) this whole thing about bullet fragmentation at 2700 fps is for military ball ammo. Most of these discussions on the internet seem to never take into consideration that as a civilian we can use HP, Ballistic Tips, or whatever we want. This of course might not apply to all the undercover operatives on here, however.
3) You arn't going to be doing much long distance work with this thing, so again, velocity and retained velocity isn't going to matter much.
4) Obviously the muzzle velocity is going to vary depending on what bullet and load you are using.

Double Naught Spy
December 27, 2003, 10:25 AM
So it is a 'fun' gun, but then you dedicate a lot of space to terminal performance issues. It is still going to be a crappy SD gun. Even if the ballistics are >2000 fps or whatever for your short range encounters, the sound and flash that make the gun so fun also make it a very bad choice for SD.

444
December 27, 2003, 03:39 PM
I am not sure why you would want to use a gun like that for self defense. :confused:
It is way bigger than a service type handgun. If I was going to use a 5.56mm weapon for self defense I would be using a carbine and not a pistol. If I was looking for a self defense pistol, it wouldn't be in 5.56mm.

"So it is a 'fun' gun, but then you dedicate a lot of space to terminal performance issues."
Right, because fun with guns involves ballistic performance including terminal. For example. You might want to place this thing on your tractor to pop the occasional ground hog. You might want to use something like this for calling coyotes in close cover. Things like that.
Shooting at distance, trajectory etc. are all factors in plinking if you live in area like I do; out in the middle of the desert where you take pot shots at rocks or junk out past Ft. Mudge.

This may come as a shock to you, but all people don't own guns simply for self defense. And, by the same token, all guns are not designed with self defense in mind. I own a couple safes full of guns. Three of them are what I would consider self defense guns or put another way, guns I would grab if I needed to defend myself. The others are simply for my own pleasure. Some of them bring me that enjoyment simply by owning them. Some are fired extensively. A select few are used for hunting. If my whole world revolved around self defense I could easily get by with two guns. But the hobby means a lot more than that to me.

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