Can a full auto be gifted down to you from a relative when they pass away?


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Vector
December 20, 2010, 11:09 PM
As the title says, can a full auto be gifted down to you from a relative when they pass away? My Uncle was in the Korean War and has a few guns left in his collection, including a full auto that he loves to shoot. He does not have any license for it to the best of my knowledge, but I think it might be old enough to have been grandfathered in. Then again knowing my Uncle, he couldn't care less about what his government says regarding what guns he owns.

Anyway he said that when he passes on he is leaving most things to his kids, but wants me to have a couple of his guns, including the full auto. Needless to say I have no clue if he is breaking any federal law by owning it, nor do I have a clue if he can legally pass it down to me without me having a federal license to own a full auto.

Anyone know for sure?

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TexasRifleman
December 20, 2010, 11:12 PM
Short answer is yes, an NFA item transfers without charge as part of settling an estate. No signoff needed either.


This assuming the receiver is able to own one in the first place; state law and personal background history.

There is no "federal license" to own a full auto firearm though. There is a tax issue really. Each firearm must have a paid National Firearms Act tax stamp along with a form of some kind (form type depends on how he got the firearms). Might want to enlist the help of an NFA dealer, but it's not too complicated with some research.

And the age of his firearm doesn't matter, there is no "grandfathered in". Either the firearm has a tax stamp and is legal, or there is no stamp and it's a big old felony and there is no path to making the firearms legal.

But yes, for a legally transferable NFA firearm it's pretty straightforward to leave it to someone in a will.

Moving to NFA forum.

GoingQuiet
December 21, 2010, 12:03 AM
As the title says, can a full auto be gifted down to you from a relative when they pass away? My Uncle was in the Korean War and has a few guns left in his collection, including a full auto that he loves to shoot. He does not have any license for it to the best of my knowledge, but I think it might be old enough to have been grandfathered in. Then again knowing my Uncle, he couldn't care less about what his government says regarding what guns he owns.

Anyway he said that when he passes on he is leaving most things to his kids, but wants me to have a couple of his guns, including the full auto. Needless to say I have no clue if he is breaking any federal law by owning it, nor do I have a clue if he can legally pass it down to me without me having a federal license to own a full auto.

Anyone know for sure?

This is a big problem - a lot of the older vets have bringback machineguns that were never registered when they brought it back or during any of the amnesty periods that uncle sam made available for legal registration.

Based on the statement that he doesn't have any papers - and doesn't care - I'd say you've got contraband on your hands.

medalguy
December 21, 2010, 12:45 AM
Goingquiet is spot-on. Assuming the gun was a bring-back and never registered with the BATF, there is no way at all that it can now be registered or whenever he passes away that the gun can be legally transferred to you or anyone else. As said, it is considered contraband and as such can net you several federal gun charges each resulting in long prison sentences and fines.

Try to determine whether he might have registered the gun during an amnesty period in 1968. If not, the only options you have are (1) abandon the gun to BATF who will destroy it, or (2) cut it into several pieces and then you could sell the parts as a kit which could be rebuilt into a semi firearm. BATF has specific requirements as to how a firearm must be cut in order to render it useless. What a shame.

bigfatdave
December 21, 2010, 01:37 AM
Can we get a sticky to cover this?
It is going to come up more as the WWII generation passes, and the rules (while grossly unconstitutional) are pretty clear cut.

I'm sure the OP's Uncle has legal registered toys or semi-auto versions, of course ... nobody could possibly have an attic full of full auto guns, the BATFE would be able to detect them with their "fun switch radar".

LHRGunslinger
December 21, 2010, 02:19 AM
If'n these NFA laws are so blatantly unconstitutional why don't we get on the NRA or another RTKBA org to fight the laws?

UpTheIrons
December 21, 2010, 02:34 AM
If'n these NFA laws are so blatantly unconstitutional why don't we get on the NRA or another RTKBA org to fight the laws?
Because the hysterical cries from the Brady Bunch, the VPC, MAIG, and their willing accomplices in the press and Congress will be all about how this is going to give kids and other precious snowflakes (not to mention criminals!!! :eek:) access to full-auto assault rifles and machineguns with "the shoulder thing that goes up" and it will be an uphill battle all the way.

I'm not saying it is worth pursuing - I think it is - but it will be a long, long, hard road to get NFA '34 repealed.

Shoot, I'd be (temporarily) happy getting suppressors moved out of the $200 category into the $5 one.

withdrawn34
December 21, 2010, 03:21 AM
The NRA and other RTKBA organizations have to choose their battles. There are multiple 2A issues, and right now, it would probably be more conducive to fight the BATFE on the long gun reporting thing, as well as trying to get shall issue CC in more places.

The day will come when we fight the NFA, but it won't be for a while. Is it terrible? Of course. Grossly unconstitional? Absolutely. But unfortunately it is reality, and we have to choose what we put our energy towards by the most pressing issues at any time.

As for the OP, this is really a tough situation. Unbelievable to think the country that your grandfather fought for has come to this...

Spec ops Grunt
December 21, 2010, 03:54 AM
Most RTKBAs are going after getting concealed carry in all states. After that, IMO, they should go after the age requirement for handguns (NRA has started to already), then Suppressors (it's a health issue!), then the rest of the NFA.


The problem is, they have to do this while fending off attacks from gun control advocates. The attempts to get lead regulated, for example.

bigfatdave
December 21, 2010, 04:30 AM
it will be a long, long, hard road to get NFA '34 repealedWhat? It doesn't "sunset" like the AWB did?
Well that's just stupid!

Sam1911
December 21, 2010, 07:47 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=558082

Here is a recent thread that explains the issues with contraband machine guns and what can/must be done with them.

It is quite a shame, but your uncle "not caring" doesn't change the fact that if a police officer ever requests to see his registration papers for that gun, your uncle will have to "not care" about a 10 year prison sentence and/or up to $250,000 in fines.

It's all fine and good to be bold in the face of tyrannical laws, but it is very important to understand just how VERY high the penalties are.

If you accept the bequest of an illegal unregistered machine gun, you are really inheriting a felony record and a DECADE behind bars. (Along with the loss of income, relationships, property, RKBA ... ever, etc.) The bar is very high for that kind of "civil disobedience."

medalguy
December 21, 2010, 11:27 AM
True, and keep in mind it's not just a single charge you have to try to defend against, but multiple:

(1) Possession of an unregistered weapon
(2) Failure to pay tax
(3) Failure to register the weapon in the NFA
(4) Receipt of an unregistered weapon
I think there's more but can't remember them all. They don't miss many chances. Definitely not worth it as each charge carries ten years.

Vector
December 21, 2010, 11:55 AM
True, and keep in mind it's not just a single charge you have to try to defend against, but multiple:

(1) Possession of an unregistered weapon
(2) Failure to pay tax
(3) Failure to register the weapon in the NFA
(4) Receipt of an unregistered weapon
I think there's more but can't remember them all. They don't miss many chances. Definitely not worth it as each charge carries ten years.
What is amazing to me is all the different 10 year sentences for having one in your possession.
If a gang banger uses a full auto in a drive by shooting, are all those charges brought against him to where he spends 40 years in jail? If not, then why not if someone like my Uncle who is in his 80's could potentially face those type of charges for having an unregistered gun he brought back after serving his country?

Vector
December 21, 2010, 12:02 PM
Short answer is yes, an NFA item transfers without charge as part of settling an estate. No signoff needed either.


This assuming the receiver is able to own one in the first place; state law and personal background history.



I guess I thought you needed a special license or extra requirements to own a full auto, not just have the money to pay for a tax.

As to the receivers eligibility to own one in the first place, what happens if they live in a restrictive state like NJ, NY, CA, etc.?

Also, do they do any special background check on someone beyond what it takes to own a regular handgun?

Are those with CCW's good to go if the firearm is deemed legal?

Sam1911
December 21, 2010, 01:18 PM
I guess I thought you needed a special license or extra requirements to own a full auto, not just have the money to pay for a tax. Nope! Just money, patience, and a clean record.

As to the receivers eligibility to own one in the first place, what happens if they live in a restrictive state like NJ, NY, CA, etc.? All depends on the particular laws of that state. Some (like MD) with terrible gun laws are just fine with machine guns. Others (NY, NJ, CA) specifically prohibit them. The ATF will not approve your Form 4 or Form 1 if your state of residence does not allow the item you want to buy or build.

Also, do they do any special background check on someone beyond what it takes to own a regular handgun? Not really. If you can pass the NICS check to buy a Title I gun, then you can pass the check done for an NFA weapon.

Are those with CCW's good to go if the firearm is deemed legal? Not sure what you mean. You will have to go through the same registration process and background check EVERY time you want to buy or make another NFA weapon. It doesn't matter if you have a CCW or a Top Secret clearance -- and it doesn't matter if you've already registered 100 of them. Isn't bureaucracy a hoot? ;)

CoRoMo
December 21, 2010, 01:26 PM
edit...

dang it Sam!

X-Rap
December 21, 2010, 01:27 PM
I have never seen in person a genuine FA bring back but if there was one in my family knowing what sacrifice it took to get it I can say it would be a cold day before I surrendered it. Some PVC and a shovel would solve all the problems until hopefully a better day.
Seeing the guns run through shredders is enough to let me just let one lie in peace, if somebody digs it up, well then we will all know what gramps did with it before he crossed over.

Sam1911
December 21, 2010, 01:30 PM
edit...

dang it Sam!


What? Whad-I-dooo? Post right on top of you? Hate that!

If you want ... just this once ... we could allow a "Me too! +1!"

:D

CoRoMo
December 21, 2010, 01:49 PM
Yeah, my post was almost identical.

Okay then... what he said.

OcelotZ3
December 21, 2010, 11:27 PM
I have never seen in person a genuine FA bring back

My dad had one, a "Colt Armalite AR-15" full auto from Vietnam, SN less than 5000. It was registered during the 1968 amnesty.

Unfortunately, he was in the process of selling when he died so I didn't get to keep it.

Interesting about the "free" part. I believe that when I transferred a SBR from the estate it cost $5, but the current version (1/31/2011) of form 5 doesn't indicate any cost.

KosmicKrunch
December 21, 2010, 11:50 PM
The requirements are the same as for any other firearm to own with the addition of finger prints, local law approval sign off and is the firearm previously registered with a form 1 & $200 BATFE/Treasury stamp (actually looks like a canceled Post Office Stamp) Not sure what color they are now, mine was a bluish green color for both my Mac10 and a Colt Thompson. Neither were bring backs from anything. I would have loved to have had my dads bring back M1/M2 that he repatriated from an NVA fighter in black Jammies. The gun is now CUT (dag nabbit) and on a wall board plaque with his bring back papers.

UpTheIrons
December 22, 2010, 01:36 AM
If a gang banger uses a full auto in a drive by shooting, are all those charges brought against him to where he spends 40 years in jail?
Your honor - I move to strike this from the record - speculation!

That's a pretty huge "if" right there. As much as the antis cry and whine about FA weapons being used in crime, their actual nefarious usages are very few and very far between. The last one I remember is that California bank robbery that turned into a huge shootout back in the early 90's (I think). Both of them wound up dead, so there was no court case to see how the charges would have lined up.

The problem with the hypothetical is the relative inaccessibility of FA weapons. Those folks who have an unregistered one are quiet about it, and those with legal ones have so much money tied up in them that they guard them very carefully. I'm not saying they don't get stolen, but it is more on along the lines of a stolen Maybach vs. a stolen Ford - there just ain't many of them out there to steal.

CoRoMo
December 22, 2010, 10:31 AM
There's quite a difference between gifting and bequeathing when it comes to firearms. The title is not accurate.

glock281
January 16, 2011, 05:45 PM
If you can not find any Registeration paperwork contact an attorney. They can expain all your options to you which mainly depends on if you have the or any paperwork on it.

Dreamcast270mhz
January 16, 2011, 07:40 PM
edit.

Hanzo581
January 16, 2011, 07:54 PM
If you wanted to stay legal but not destroy the gun, it could be as simple as taking apart the gun, taking out the auto sear and then riveting the axis hole shut. This way , the gun is technically not a machine gun anymore (you can keep the auto sear too)

If this is legal, this is absolutely the way to go.

Sam1911
January 16, 2011, 08:56 PM
If you wanted to stay legal but not destroy the gun, it could be as simple as taking apart the gun, taking out the auto sear and then riveting the axis hole shut. This way , the gun is technically not a machine gun anymore (you can keep the auto sear too)

NO. IT CAN NOT BE THAT SIMPLE.

Once a gun is a machine gun, it is always a machine gun, according to the ATF. Even if you were to mill away the portion of the gun that held the auto sear, it would still be a machine gun, still be illegal contraband, and still worth 10 years in federal prison.

(This is the reason military surplus M-14s cannot be sold as converted to semi-autos, even with the switch mounting location completely removed.)

The only way it would be legal would be if the auto-sear WAS the registered machine gun and the rest of the gun was simply a "host" Title I semi. But that would be dependent on the gun type, and would, or course, require that the sear had been registered in the first place, rendering the question moot.

Hanzo581
January 16, 2011, 09:01 PM
Well there goes that, it did sound too good to be true.

mp510
January 16, 2011, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Vector
If a gang banger uses a full auto in a drive by shooting, are all those charges brought against him to where he spends 40 years in jail?
Chances are that they might not even be charged with a federal NFA violation at all, since the tougher penalty would likely come down from the state murder (or attempted murder/ assault 1 charges) that they would be facing. And, it is also important to remember, that in most instances, the Federal Sentencing Guidelines call for SIGNIFICANTLY less time than the maximums that we love to cite. I believe that there is a federal sentence enhancer for use of a machine gun or semi-automatic assault (separate from the general sentence enhancers from general firearm possession/ use in the commission of a federal felony) weapon in the commission of certain federal crimes (that are drug/ violence related) IIRC...I would have to look up the guidelines to be certain, however.

LKB3rd
January 17, 2011, 10:51 AM
If'n these NFA laws are so blatantly unconstitutional why don't we get on the NRA or another RTKBA org to fight the laws?
__________________

The NRA was involved in getting these laws passed in the first place, participating in the process. Their role is to be the "Judas Goat", by claiming to soften the blow. In reality they calm down gun owners, and give politicians an out when they say "The NRA approved this legislation."
They will do nothing to repeal these laws.

Sam1911
January 17, 2011, 11:23 AM
The NRA was involved in getting these laws passed in the first place, participating in the process. Their role is to be the "Judas Goat", by claiming to soften the blow. In reality they calm down gun owners, and give politicians an out when they say "The NRA approved this legislation."
They will do nothing to repeal these laws.

Oh good grief. Do a bit of research on what actually happened in 1986 before making these kind of statements. And on what FOPA '86 did RIGHT.

Anyone who says the NRA exists to calm down and mollify gun owners needs to hook up with all those who scream that they exist only to stir up unreasonable passions (UN gun-ban anyone?) and maybe try to find the calm center where the nuggets of truth lie.

TexasRifleman
January 17, 2011, 11:29 AM
The NRA was involved in getting these laws passed in the first place, participating in the process.

That's like saying MacArthur was responsible for WWII because he participated in the process.

The NRA in 1934 was NOT a lobbying organization and had no political arm at all. The original NFA was going to include hanguns too, and the efforts of the NRA got them removed from the legislation. If they had not "participated in the process" you'd be filling out Form 4's to buy a handgun.

If you are going to tell stories, dishonesty is not going to cut it. Tell the whole story or don't open the door.

rscalzo
January 17, 2011, 11:41 AM
NJ does have a procedure for just such a transfer. Doubt many ever took place.

SUBCHAPTER 5. MACHINE GUNS, ASSAULT FIREARMS AND LARGE CAPACITY
AMMUNITION MAGAZINES

N.J.A.C. 13:54-5.1 Purchase or sale of assault firearms and machine guns (a) Except as provided in N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6, no person shall possess a machine gun without first
having obtained a license in accordance with the provisions of this chapter. Except as provided in N.J.S.A. 2C:39-6, no person shall possess an assault firearm without first having obtained a license
in accordance with the provisions of this chapter, registered the assault firearm pursuant to N.J.S.A. 2C:58-12, or rendered the assault firearm inoperable pursuant to N.J.S.A. 2C:58-13.

(b) Any licensed dealer in firearms who sells or otherwise transfers a machine gun or an assault firearm shall confirm both the identity of the purchaser, and in the case of a licensee, the validity
of the license. A machine gun or assault firearm shall be delivered unloaded and securely wrapped.

(c) A licensed dealer who accepts an assault firearm and/or machine gun from a private citizen for transfer, resale or repair shall, within 48 hours of such acquisition, notify the Superintendent. Such
dealer shall maintain possession of the assault firearm and/or machine gun, until he or she receives permission from the Superintendent to proceed with the transfer, resale or repair of the weapon.
Failure by the dealer to comply with this requirement may result in the revocation of the license or registration of such dealer.

(d) In addition to the permanent records of receipt or disposition of firearms required by this chapter to be maintained by a wholesale or resale dealer, such dealers shall keep and maintain a
separate ledger for the acquisition or receipt and sale or disposition of machine guns and assault firearms. This ledger shall be in the same form and contain the same information as provided for in
N.J.A.C. 13:54-3.13, 3.14 and 3.15 and N.J.A.C. 13:54-4.12.

N.J.A.C. 13:54-5.2 License to purchase, possess or carry a machine gun or assault firearm

(a) Licenses to purchase, possess or carry a machine gun or assault firearm shall be issued by a judge of the Superior Court in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.A. 2C:58-5. The application for such license shall be referred to the county prosecutor for investigation, recommendation and preparation of a report.

(b) The report of the county prosecutor shall be served upon the Superintendent and the chief of police of every municipality in which the applicant intends to carry the machine gun or assault
firearm. The Superintendent and/or the chief of police, or their designees, may personally appear and oppose the issuance of any license to acquire a machine gun or assault firearm. If the court
issues a license, the Superintendent and/or chief of police, or their designees, may appeal that decision in accordance with the Rules of Court.

(c) Upon issuance of a license by a court, a true copy of such license shall be filed with the Superintendent and chief of police of the municipality where the licensee resides or has his place
of business.

(d) At any time, the Superintendent, a chief of police, any law enforcement officer of this State or any other citizen may apply to the court which issued the license for revocation on the ground that
the licensee is no longer qualified to possess such license by virtue of his inability to satisfy the statutory requirements of N.J.S.A. 2C:58-4 and 2C:58-5, or if revocation is necessary in order to
protect the public safety and welfare.

N.J.A.C. 13:54-5.3 Disposition of machine gun or assault firearm upon death of licensee or registered holder(a)

If the holder of a license to purchase, possess or carry a machine gun or assault firearm dies, or if the owner of an assault firearm, which has been registered pursuant to N.J.S.A. 2C:58-12 dies,
then the heirs or estate of the deceased person shall have 90 days from the date of death to transfer the firearm to a licensed dealer or person or firm lawfully entitled to own or possess such firearm;
voluntarily surrender the firearm pursuant to the provisions of N.J.S.A. 2C:39-12; or, only in the case of an assault firearm, render the firearm inoperable pursuant to the provisions of N.J.S.A. 2C:58-13.
In the event that the heir or legatee of the assault firearm does not qualify for a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to purchase a handgun, he or she must immediately transfer
possession of such firearm to the chief law enforcement officer of the municipality or the Superintendent during such 90-day period.

(b) For purposes of this section, "inoperable" shall mean that the firearm is altered in such a manner that it cannot be immediately fired and that the owner or possessor of the firearm does not
possess or have control over the parts necessary to make the firearm operable. In the event that the firearm is rendered inoperable, the heir or estate shall file a certification on the form prescribed by
the Superintendent, indicating the date on which the firearm was rendered inoperable. The certification shall be filed with either the chief of police of the municipality in which the heir
resides, or if the municipality does not have a full time police department, or if the owner resides outside of this State, with the Superintendent.

N.J.A.C. 13:54-5.4 Notification of ineligibility to possess assault firearm or machine gun

Any person having knowledge that a person is subject to any of the disabilities which would render such person ineligible to procure a license to purchase, possess or carry a machine gun or
assault firearm, or to continue to be registered as an owner of an assault firearm, may notify the appropriate chief of police or the Superintendent, who may take such action as may be deemed
appropriate.

PapaG
January 17, 2011, 11:44 AM
As mentioned above, the gun would have to have been registered, either before the amnesty and a tax paid, or during the amnesty. Also, you would have to be in a state where you can own a full auto firearm. Illinois is not one of those states but that is not the issue here.

A local dealer a few years ago sold an heirloom full auto to an BATFE agent during a sting and he did three years.

glassmountains
January 19, 2011, 11:08 AM
Seems like I have read on several other forums that there is still a way to register war trophies even after the 68 amnesty period. Depending on the value of the firearm, you should contact a good Attorney or an old, experienced class 3 dealer and thoroughly investigate before taking any action.

bigfatdave
January 19, 2011, 02:03 PM
glassmountains, welcome aboard, but there is not a way to register a war trophy, the BATFEIEIO is pretty silly about these dangerous machineguns, even though they've obviously been completely safe to the public for decades (hell, a WW1 trophy would be approaching a century!).

rocky branch
January 19, 2011, 11:16 PM
There is nothing you can do to legalize a piece that was not registered pre 1986-nothing.

Some guys are posting delusional stuff.
Even DEWATS are controlled items.

I began collecting in the late 50s-there were LOTS of MP 40s, Thompsons, Nambu MGs, etc about that vets had.
Gunshow parking lots were like carnival sideshows.

Over the years 99% passed out of their hands.
Some got registered in 68, many just "disappeared."

Today the idea of fooling around with an unregistered piece is just stupid.

I had an unregistered piece at home when I went in the Army.
I spent 68 69 and 70 in RVN and missed the amnesty.

I contacted the ATF through a friend and his boss basically said "No dice, lose it."

glassmountains
January 20, 2011, 09:25 AM
At the time, if you could prove you were out of the country during the amnesty period you were allowed to register the weapon upon your return. I know this for a fact.

Patriot1/3
January 20, 2011, 07:42 PM
I can't believe you would even ask or post such a topic. Eyes are watching this site lol!

Sam1911
January 20, 2011, 11:17 PM
I can't believe you would even ask or post such a topic. Eyes are watching this site lol! Nothing wrong with asking a question. The laws are somewhat complicated and generally nonsensical. No shame in needing it all explained. He's gotten good info on how to avoid trouble.

Its up to him to choose wisely.

MikePGS
January 20, 2011, 11:33 PM
Don't want to derail the thread, but can't they be rolled into a trust and then the new owner named the trustee?

Sam1911
January 21, 2011, 07:56 AM
Don't want to derail the thread, but can't they be rolled into a trust and then the new owner named the trustee?


If they are not registered, then no. They aren't transferable to a trust or an individual.

The trust route does not get around the requirement that any NFA item must be registered either; a)in the original compliance period, b) in the later amnesty period, or c) by a manufacturer immediately upon being built.

If it is unregistered then it is illegal, and cannot be made legal.

Patriot1/3
January 21, 2011, 07:02 PM
Sam,my point is as follows.
1.NEVER devulge what the family has or will have.
2.That man served his country,he earned what he has accummilated.
3.Someone needs to keep their pie hole shut!
4.What's in the family,STAYS in the family with-out every freakn individual knowing about it.
5.Take this info as you wish.

Sam1911
January 21, 2011, 07:14 PM
Patriot, I see your point, and I believe that all should be as you say. Unfortunately, the laws of our country do not agree with that view, and the consequences of running afoul of those laws would rob an otherwise honest and law-abiding person of all the rights and freedoms his forefathers had fought to give him/her.

"Keeping your pie hole shut," is a path fraught with disaster. Even if you want to own a secret that you must keep religiously and never, EVER, take out and enjoy, the practicality of that in the OP's situation is absolutely nil.

As Benjamin Franklin once opined, "Three can keep a secret -- if two are dead."

No one is living a very free life if they or their loved ones are one mis-step (house fire, burglary, overly curious home repairman, etc.) away from spending 10 years in federal prison, and losing their right to bear arms ... and wife, home, friendships, job, etc.

Zondfive
January 22, 2011, 01:11 PM
I have to ask after reading much of this - this is abridgment pure and simple. Any - repeat ANY restriction on ownership is abridgment - and therefore unconstitutional.

And that is my opinion and how i read the document under which our country is governed - for the most part.... damn shame to have to put that in there.

Z

Sam1911
January 22, 2011, 04:12 PM
Any - repeat ANY restriction on ownership is abridgment - and therefore unconstitutional.

Hear, hear. So call your congressmen and get it fixed.

Carl N. Brown
January 22, 2011, 09:58 PM
Anyone know about this group?
NFATCA
The National Firearms Act Trade & Collectors Association
http://www.nfatca.org

outerlimit
January 23, 2011, 07:04 AM
Donating it to a museum to keep it from being chopped might be an option.
http://ingunowners.com/forums/class_iii_nfa/116683-porter_county_museum_gets_machine_gun_donation.html

I know the local museum here has quite a large gun collection, most of it not on display. I'm not quite sure how one would go about this, but I'm sure most museum curators would be enthusiastic about a Korean War/WWII gun donation.

Patriot1/3
January 23, 2011, 01:55 PM
LMFAO! Laws are to be followed yes but. "Take out and enjoy"!!!! That type of weapon is a tool. To protect and save a family. You people think these weapons are toys and or a game. Grow up sheeple,learn what weapons are made for.

Sam1911
January 23, 2011, 04:38 PM
LMFAO! Laws are to be followed yes but. "Take out and enjoy"!!!! That type of weapon is a tool. To protect and save a family.
Patriot,

Using an automatic firearm to protect and save your family is going to be problematic. They require well more training and practice to use safely AND effectively than many more common weapons. The idea that a M3 "Grease Gun" or an M1 Thompson (or any of the other submachine guns common in the Korean war) would be more effective for defending one's home and family than would a 12 ga. pump shotgun or a service auto pistol is pretty questionable. IF you have the skills to use it well, it could be very effective. If you are equally skilled with other, more common types of weapons, then a sub-gun wouldn't be vastly MORE effective in that role -- and might be noticeably worse.

That is the educated opinion of someone more than adequately experienced with such weapons platforms.

(AND, that's assuming that we're discussing a submachine gun, and not something belt-fed and crew-served, which would be slightly LESS useful than a good, sharp FORK for home defense. The OP didn't say.)

Now, let's look at this from a legal perspective. If your home is invaded and you grab your super-secret M3, that grandpappy snuck home from Korea, and that you have not been able to practice with just about EVER for fear of discovery -- have you successfully defended your family from danger when the ATF puts you in federal prison for 10 years, you lose your job, lose up to $250,000 in fines, lose your home, lose your marriage and relationship with your children, family, and friends, and lose your rights to own arms for the rest of your life?

Around here, we contemplate a MUCH deeper understanding of successful self/home defense that encompasses being able to LIVE to enjoy the rest of your life, not merely to survive the moment of the encounter.

You people think these weapons are toys and or a game. Grow up sheeple,learn what weapons are made for. I'm not exactly sure who these "you people" are, but you might want to spend a lot more time getting to know this forum before you cast too many aspersions. There is lots of good information here from folks who've spent lifetimes studying such issues. But we don't suffer fools or "Rambo" types very well. You certainly don't want to come across as that through overheated rhetoric.

Eric Draven
January 23, 2011, 09:37 PM
Could an Old F/A like the one the OP described be sold to an licensed FFL07 SOT to be used for Research and Development if it doesn't have any paperwork? I am just wondering if that might be another option for him, in the case that the older weapon is paperless.
I have seen companies like Ordinance that have all kinds of F/As like SAWs, original AK47s from the 1950s, M60s from Vietnam era and more. I'm wondering if it possible somehow to sell it to someone who is licensed to own and build these types of firearms.

OcelotZ3
January 23, 2011, 10:22 PM
Short answer is yes, an NFA item transfers without charge as part of settling an estate. No signoff needed either.

I'm not sure what you mean by "no signoff needed".

He will have to have his fingerprints taken, apply for the transfer, go through the full background check, etc. Instead of $200 it's free (or nearly free, plus fingerprinting costs). The local sheriff will often have to be notified, and any special state laws/transfer forms will have to be done.

I've done this for a registered SBR my father had so I'm familiar with it.

Patriot1/3
January 26, 2011, 07:05 PM
Whew,big man calling me a fool. Then so be it.
The FOOL would be keeping that weapon in the house...lol.
Don't commit crimes and your house wouldn't be raided. Or move from section 8 housing.
Rambo is a myth (In your mind he's real like Santa).
Sure,these guys can get to know me and I will make a diligent effort on my part.
Your stereotyping is quite in-mature.
Training is a must with any weapon.
But it's obvious you have been trained on ALL weaponry.
Have a wonderful day Sam. :)

Vector
January 26, 2011, 07:18 PM
Your honor - I move to strike this from the record - speculation!

That's a pretty huge "if" right there. As much as the antis cry and whine about FA weapons being used in crime, their actual nefarious usages are very few and very far between. The last one I remember is that California bank robbery that turned into a huge shootout back in the early 90's (I think). Both of them wound up dead, so there was no court case to see how the charges would have lined up.

The problem with the hypothetical is the relative inaccessibility of FA weapons. Those folks who have an unregistered one are quiet about it, and those with legal ones have so much money tied up in them that they guard them very carefully. I'm not saying they don't get stolen, but it is more on along the lines of a stolen Maybach vs. a stolen Ford - there just ain't many of them out there to steal.

Well you are obviously not from S Florida or a very "urban" area.
That is not to say we have full auto shootouts as common place, but there are some easy to convert cheap semi-autos that wind up in the gang-bangers hands. My point being that you rarely read about weapons charges against these criminals who commit crimes with them, yet there are incredibly strict laws that could put a law abiding citizen away for the mere possession of one even if it were not used in a crime. That seems not only crazy to me, but another attempt to infringe upon law abiding citizens to own firearms.

Sam1911
January 26, 2011, 08:40 PM
Whew,big man calling me a fool. Then so be it.I didn't call you a fool. I said you don't want to appear foolish by endorsing illegal activities, especially poorly thought-out ones that are unnecessary to protecting you or your family but would land you in jail.
The FOOL would be keeping that weapon in the house...lol.
I thought you'd been suggesting that it was for protecting your family, presumably in some home-defense role? Where would you be going to retrieve your home-defense gun that you have to keep off-site? And how will you deal with the investigation of your defensive shooting, once you get back home and take care of business? The police will be wanting to see, and take into evidence, the weapon(s) used. That's a pretty unavoidable trouble spot when your defensive gun is an unregistered Title II item.

Don't commit crimes and your house wouldn't be raided. Or move from section 8 housing.Crimes...like possession of contraband illegal weapons?

Rambo is a myth (In your mind he's real like Santa).Actually, Rambo is a fictional character. Could be that he has risen to the level of a modern-day mythical element at this point. Either way, he does rear his long-haired, sweat-banded head on these very boards from time to time. ;)

Sure,these guys can get to know me and I will make a diligent effort on my part.Who? What?

Your stereotyping is quite in-mature.Who? What?


Training is a must with any weapon.Yes! And it is difficult to achieve when your weapon of choice is illegal and cannot be taken to the range, brought to a training class, practiced with -- outside of the very surreptitious, brief, and haunted moments you might be able to steal away, at GRAVE risk, in a remote quarry or somewhere where you can hope no one sees you.

But it's obvious you have been trained on ALL weaponry.
That would be cool, but no. I do have time on sub-guns, though. And I stand by the statement that a trained individual can do 9?% as good a job of defending yourself and your home against all common threats with a shotgun or service handgun as you could with a (WWII or Korean War era, no less) submachine gun.

And that, with the happy thought that you wouldn't be sent to federal prison when the police discover that you own it.

Have a wonderful day Sam. Certainly, and you do so too.

Maj Dad
January 26, 2011, 09:44 PM
Don't recall reading any details about the OP's actual gun, but when I was in college in the early 60's you used to be able to buy GI parts kits in a little bag to convert M1 carbines to M2. Some guys I knew converted them and used to go blasting in the woods, totally oblivious of the ATF (ca. 1964). If it's a carbine with an M1 marked receiver, and not with e-vill M2 markings, it would be simple thing to remove the M2 parts & toss them. I used to have a bunch of them before 1986 with the notion that I might register one of my carbines. After '86, I tossed them to avoid any possible unpleasantness; should have sold them, but discretion is the best route with the feds. Too bad.

Bubbles
January 26, 2011, 10:04 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "no signoff needed".
I think he meant "no CLEO signoff needed" since there are CLEO's out there who won't sign Form 1's or Form 4's for anyone.

Could an Old F/A like the one the OP described be sold to an licensed FFL07 SOT to be used for Research and Development if it doesn't have any paperwork?
Nope. The most we can do is strip the parts, destroy the receiver per ATF regs, and sell the parts. Sadly it happens all too often. :(

OcelotZ3
January 26, 2011, 11:42 PM
Interesting, because my local sheriff *did* have to okay the transfer from my father's estate... The original poster is incorrect.

See the ATF Form 4: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

Section 17 is the part for law enforcement certification.

"e. Law Enforcement Certification. Item 17 must be completed for an
individual transferee, unless the transferee is licensed as a manufacturer,
importer, or dealer under the GCA and is a special (occupational) taxpayer
under the NFA at the time of the submission of the application for transfer."

Sam1911
January 27, 2011, 07:32 AM
See the ATF Form 4: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf


But a transfer as part of an estate should be done on a Form 5 (tax exempt transfer), rather than a Form 4.

Sam1911
January 27, 2011, 07:33 AM
Holy cow. How did I miss this?

Here's an ATF open letter from 1999 that explains the process -- exactly -- including how the executor is to handle the weapon pending transfer, what form to use, what to do with UN-registered weapons, and so on.

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/09/090599-openletter-nfa-estate-transfers.html

Can't be more clear than this!

Made into a sticky thread here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=570018

glassmountains
January 29, 2011, 10:50 AM
Interesting new bill introduced to alleviate some of the above. Contact your congressman and support this bill.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=198

azbvm
January 30, 2011, 02:00 AM
Wow dealing with this same issue. Thanks for the info!

7thCavScout
January 30, 2011, 08:14 AM
Side Note: I never ceased to be amazed at the amount of knowledge on this forum. Proof positive once again why THR is my go-to firearms forum.

OcelotZ3
January 31, 2011, 12:05 AM
But a transfer as part of an estate should be done on a Form 5 (tax exempt transfer), rather than a Form 4.

Yes, my bad, however the same section exists on Form 5. It's section 17, Law Enforcement Certification.

So my original point is still valid, local law enforcement has to certify the transfer.

mopar92
February 3, 2011, 09:57 PM
Interesting subject. I have been into a lot of veteran homes over the years. I went into one guys house that had 2 Sten's! One other occasion was a full auto light Japanese MG... A friend of the family brought back an MG42 sans barrel.... theres a lot of gray area MG's out there from WWI and WWII era. I had no idea 25 years ago they were that illegal etc.... I just wasnt into NFA guns then. I'd have popped my eyes out had I known then... all those old guys I knew with NFA stuff are probably gone, if I could even find them to begin with. I was young... interesting read...

Sam1911
February 4, 2011, 06:11 AM
theres a lot of gray area MG's out there from WWI and WWII era.Unfortunatly, there are no gray areas. Just legal or illegal.

With more and more Greatest Generation types passing away, this will be a frustrating reality for a surprising number of families/heirs.

mopar92
February 5, 2011, 11:27 PM
Batfe knocked on your door yet?

mopar92
February 5, 2011, 11:30 PM
Gray area meaning , what if the vet got it here with his superiors knowing? That's why I said gray area... At the time those guys brought toys home, it might not have been illegal.. Seeing that their supervisor gave the ok...

Sam1911
February 6, 2011, 02:17 AM
Seeing that their supervisor gave the ok... Yes, but his supervisor has nothing to do with the BATFE now, or with the NFA back then. If he didn't register it during the proper time to do so, it IS, COMPLETELY, illegal.

Jim K
February 7, 2011, 12:59 AM
I think there is no other subject that brings out so many ignorant, stupid, and argumentative people. The law is the law, and BATFE will enforce the law because they are sworn to do so. No, innocent widows who find their late husband's war souvenir SMG will not be put in jail, but wise guys who try to play games with the law and sound off to the feds just might find themselves in big trouble.

If you don't like the law, work to try to get it changed. Until that happens, obey it or go to prison. And you can scream all about your rights as they haul you away; it won't make the handcuffs hurt any less or keep Big Bubba off you in your cell.

Jim

Sport45
February 21, 2011, 01:37 AM
Does anyone know if another amnesty period is being considered? It might be appropriate with the passing of so many WWII vets these days. It's arguable that they were not aware of the legal requirements in '68. After all, they didn't have an internet or anything like that. My folks had a TV at the time, but only got one channel and were not on a paper route.

Wouldn't affect me anyway since the only firearm he came home with was a T99 Arisaka. It will be in the family for at least one more generation, I know.

hirundo82
February 23, 2011, 10:09 AM
The ATF has the authority to declare an amnesty, but they haven't done so since (IIRC) 1968.

There is a bill (HR 420 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-420)) that was recently introduced in Congress to declare a 90-day amnesty for machineguns brought back by armed forces members returning from overseas prior to 10/31/1968.

Monkey_King
February 25, 2011, 11:24 PM
The law is the law, but I don't feel that it is stupid to question whether or not to follow the law blindly. I don't have a hand me down mg, but I do appreciate the dilemma that those like the OP find themselves in. I personally find laws such as this unconstitutional as others have stated and therefore void. Now this won't keep you out of jail if you're caught, but it doesn't make you wrong or stupid to bury the thing and hope for future amnesty. It will make you a criminal, but so were Rosa Parks, MLK, & all signers of our Declaration of Independence. Some thinks its a ridiculous risk to take and others think it sheepish not to take the risk. Its a difference of ideology and because they don't agree doesn't make them ignorant, stupid, and argumentative .

newfalguy101
February 25, 2011, 11:53 PM
If'n these NFA laws are so blatantly unconstitutional why don't we get on the NRA or another RTKBA org to fight the laws?


1) MONEY, it takes lots and lots of it to fight a legal challenge of this magnitude
2) Politics, at this point in time, it would be political suicide for any "orginization" to take on the NFA laws
3) Did I mention money??

mustang_steve
March 4, 2011, 04:36 PM
The only legal answer here if you wanted to ever use it is to takes everything off the receiver (discard of the reciever, destroyal by cutting it in half is the legal best approach), then pay some CNC-equipped firearms maker some good cash to make a one-off semi-auto only receiver for it, purchase that, then add the "parts kit" you now have to it.

That would be a new firearm as the receiver IS the firearm. You;d also no longer have a full-auto firearm, but that's the end goal of these draconian laws.

Sam1911
March 4, 2011, 05:34 PM
destroyal by cutting it in half is the legal best approachAs possession of a machine gun, for however short a time or by whatever circumstances, is a crime -- is destroying the receiver destroying evidence of a crime?

The ATF does not list "cut it up and throw it away" in their instructions of what to do with one you find or inherit.

mustang_steve
March 11, 2011, 06:34 PM
good point....this is a really awkward situation. my understanding was destruction of a receiver wasn't specified in any exact manner, but just that it cannot be rebuilt and proof be provided.

The NFA really needs to go, this kind of confusion to exercise a right is insane...

myglock27
March 11, 2011, 06:55 PM
x-rap, i definately agree with you

splithoof
March 18, 2011, 12:59 AM
The penalties are not worth it to me. So you bury it, and one of your kids gets it later, then they become felons, for something you believed in that they might not care about, or have the $$$ to keep themselves out of prison. Was it still worth it?

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