[Panzercat]

Somebody brought up a very good point about your firearm in the role of HD-- Expect to lose it when the police arrive. So, much as I love my high capactiy shotguns (had a mossy 500 cruiser 7+1 at one point) can anybody suggest a cheap, decent double barrel/double action?

I figure for just HD, you don't need to over gun and i'm not expecting a phalanx of ninjas, black helicopters or the spanish inquision any time soon. It served the frontier for the longest time, so I figure it'll serve my house just as well and lay down its life if the police require it for evidence. Better than the more valuable firearms I may or may not possess but would not like squirrled away in an evidence locker.

Suggestions? I'm thinking evil walmart or a pawnshop for this app, tho I'm short on branding too.

[oneounceload]

You can't get much cheaper than a Mossberg and have reliability except for maybe their Maverick - just get a nice used one for about $150-$200 and leave it bone stock - that way they can't make a case against you for being some "gun nut" or similar

[Sam1911]

First of all, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Second, when you can buy a Mossberg 500 for under $200 from Walmart, why NOT use one?

If you want a revolver, try J&G or CDNN for a security company turn-in Model 64 for about $249.

[figment]

Dance with the one that brung ya. Don't rely on one and train with the other. If you don't get your gun back chances are high you'll lose the other ones too.

[JFrame]

I can appreciate the OP's rationale -- but when it comes to defending hearth and home, I'll go with whatever I feel are the best tools at hand, regardless of cost.

.

[Dobe]

Expect to lose it when the police arriveEven if you didn't get it back, and if it were a legal shoot you would, it is better to use what you feel is the best firearm that will protect your family.

If that is an H&R single, so be it. It it's a custom English double, so be that too.

[KosmicKrunch]

This is over gunning at the Great Lakes Civillian/HD Coast Guard Patro.l unit.....

[Dobe]

Love it. My kinda boat.

[czarjl]

If you are there to deal with the loss of your HD gun, isn’t that better than not being there because you decided that something cheaper should work.

Think of it this way, what is the price you are willing to pay for the protection of you and your family? A Mossberg is a fairly inexpensive shotgun (that performs very well IMO), and would be well worth the cost if you had to use it and ended up with out it in the end.

You need to make, sure what ever you decided to use for your HD gun, you can use it well. A gun that doesn’t work right or that you can’t use effectively is about the same as bringing a spoon to a gun fight.

[William Lee]

Yea, just use what you got unless it's an heirloom that cannot be replaced, then I'd just buy a used 870 or Moss 500. I currently rely on the Pardner Pump for HD, as it's the only long gun I own. It costs around 130 at Wally World and works just like an 870.

[rcmodel]

Personally, I'd rather thrust a new $250 buck Mossberg 500 or Rem 870 then a $250 pawnshop double-gun.

The former guns are new, and the latter may or may not have been rode hard & put away wet over the years.

How many times did Joe Blow set smoking dope while dry firing grandpa's old double at the TV before he ran out of money for more dope and pawned it?

And when, not if, is one of the firing pins going to break?

rc

[CoRoMo]

Most HD firearms will never be used for their intended purpose. If I was to expand upon that fact, I'd prefer to employ the weapon that I like best. I would not mind the cost, I'd want it to fit me and my needs, and I'd want it to be a gun that I absolutely love to shoot. This way, I'd shoot it a lot and be satisfied with the tool. Cost wouldn't matter, because I probably won't ever really need to use it and lose it during my lifetime.

If I owned a coach gun, I'd probably not shoot it very often because it wouldn't grab my interest. But my semi-auto SG... I can't shoot that thing enough. It goes with me, every single range trip. It cost me $1,000, but the total cost of ammo that I put through it over the years will dwarf the gun's price.

[rayman]

If you were in the right why wouldn't it be returned to you? I'd ask for a receipt or signed document from the officer who confiscated your weapon. If it turns into an evidence piece and you're cleared, you should be able to get it back. It's your property, you paid for it.

[rcmodel]

I agree the gun should be returned to you, eventually.

But it may spend six months in a humid evidence room, with sweaty fingerprints all over it. While residing under a pile of stolen bicycles & power tools.

rc

[wildman6809]

i wouldn't count on getting your gun back if you have to shoot somebody in self defense. personally i would use what ever i felt was the most adequate for the job. i would not care at all about what it cost. i would consider it the best money i ever spent. i would go out and replace it the same day as it got taken. i don't think that i could live with my self if something happened to my wife or kids because i made a poor decision because of price.

[Naybor]

wildman6809 ~ AMEN!!!

I sat in on my wife's CCW class last Saturday and the instructor said, "Would any of you go out and buy a $100 gun for self defense of your wife/significant other and family not knowing if it's going to go bang every time and may not hold together at a critical moment? No, you would want something that is very reliable and up to the job ALL THE TIME! ~ The very best weapon you can afford!"

I believe the 12 ga double barrel, the Ruger SP101, and the Kel-Tec P-11 we use for SD have proven their reliability to us. It did take a while for the Kel-Tec to earn it's trust, but it is now considered reliable and efficient. Whatever weapon you use, shoot it until it earns your trust, or buy another. Don't worry about them taking your gun. Use the best you've got and make sure you are right. The old saying is "I would rather have to explain my actions to twelve of my peers than be carried by six of them."

[Panzercat]

I agree the gun should be returned to you, eventually. But it may spend six months in a humid evidence room, with sweaty fingerprints all over it. While residing under a pile of stolen bicycles & power tools.

This. Look, don't get me wrong. I'm not going to trust my life to crap, nor am I going to simply let it sit without familiarizing with it to some level of skill. However, I'm not a rich man contrary to popular belief. I have other arms and they serve very specific purposes I'd rather not have them diverted from.

"Damn, was that your SHTF gun? Sorry, Son, we'll need that for evidence where you may or may not- due to department bureaucracy -get it back in a timely manner, kk? Oh, and we can't be responsible for the condition you get it back in, I'm sure you understand."

Sure I'm good with any firearm I choose to own. I'm trusting my life to it. But that's not the point. The point is I'm now without a tactical asset for an undetermined amount of time. If that status is going to be potentially inflicted upon me, I'd rather that it happened to a firearm that did the job it was supposed to, is sacrificial to that cause given the above potential for loss and wouldn't hurt the pocket book (an entirely subjective pov) to replace if necessary; Thus my query here though I'm now suspecting I should have been a tad more specific.

That said, if I pump can be found cheaper than a double barrel, so be it. If you want a rational, it's 3am in the morning and I want point and shoot capability with a reasonable chance to hit my target half asleep. That's exaggeration btw. The point of a pawned gun is fair enough too.

And Sam1911 wins four (4) interwebs :D

[pitsmile]

This is over gunning at the Great Lakes Civillian/HD Coast Guard Patro.l unit.....
No such thing as overgunning.

[Dobe]

How many times did Joe Blow set smoking dope while dry firing grandpa's old double at the TV before he ran out of money for more dope and pawned it? There's an awful lot of detail in that story.:D

[Dobe]

The point is I'm now without a tactical asset for an undetermined amount of time.What would you be doing with your tactical asset anyway. If you own a more expensive firearm that you apparently trust (or you wouldn't have it) then you have a defined purpose for it. That purpose is now lost, if you find some "secondary" firearm in its stead. You might as well sell the better firearm.

The reality is that we are extremely unlikely to have to use a firearm in self defense. If we do, it is worth loosing any firearm for the sake of safety and defense. Guns are cheap, even the expensive ones.

[Panzercat]

Of course it's worth losing any weapon in the name of defense... Which again sidesteps the point entirely.

The fact is that this lose is a completely controllable one. You can decide to use the gun you'd rather not have locked away for several months on end during a police investigation or you can specifically dedicate one for that role; a cheap, reliable, sacrificial one.

Likewise, there's no reason why you can't "trust" another. These points you continue to make are disingenuous. Sure, we all know the chance of actually having to use it are low... So why do we have firearms for self defense again? It's an empty talking point. If you have to use it, the police will more than likely detain it even if you are perfectly in the right. You just lost that firearm you supposedly trusted like it was the only one on earth. What now?

Frankly, I'm not here to debate that. If I have to use that arm and it does get detained for evidence, I'd rather it not be the one I use for fun or a Get Out of Dodge gun; Thus the question remains fairly relevant.

Otherwise, thanks for the actually response and not needlessly hypothetical dogma.

[clutch]

Not to hijack this but if I shoot a bg in a home invasion situation, are they going to take the weapon I used or my arms collection? Serious question there. I'm fine with taking the PDW for evidence but the rest of my guns would be a problem.

Clutch

[mr.trooper]

A friend of mine had an HK USP stolen from his house by an acquaintance turned druggy... Low life used it to knock over a liqueur store with a few of his other scummy buddies.

My friend had reported it stolen prior to this incident, so when the cops recovered it at the scene they knew who it belonged to...

5 years later, that USP is STILL in their evidence locker.... ONE of the 4 guys involved in the robbery was never caught... so the case is still 'open'. :rolleyes:

Long story short, the cops are never going to catch the last guy, and my friend will never get his $1,000 pistol back. It is going to rust into dirt in the county sheriffs evidence locker, on a technicality.

[huntsman]

Expect to lose it when the police arrive. So, much as I love my high capactiy shotguns (had a mossy 500 cruiser 7+1 at one point)

Better than the more valuable firearms I may or may not possess but would not like squirrled away in an evidence locker.

I thought a "mossy" or 870 express are the cheap throw away shotguns?

what are you going to do if the LEO wants to take all your shotguns?

[Dobe]

Likewise, there's no reason why you can't "trust" another.Then why even have the former? I don't understand why you would even have it.

If you trust the cheaper shotgun, why not have another just like it for your "get outa Dodge" shotgun?

I'm not trying to hassel you. I understand what you are saying, but most of us on this thread are saying that perhaps you would be better served using your primary shotgun for home defense, regardless of the price. From what you have written, it seems to be your choice shotgun for defense. If that is the case, I would use it where the probability is the highest. That would be home defense over "get outa Dodge".

[ZCORR Jay]

I think the op has a very logical concern and one that I honestly never considered before. The issue of getting a gun bag can be spun into sooooo many different scenarios so I would go along with others that say use the tool you think will get the job done.

Is there ever such a thing as being over gunned?

[mljdeckard]

My wife's primary is my grandfather's heirloom M-1 carbine. Is it very valuable to me? Yes. Do I want anything to happen to it? No. Do I know what my grandfather would say to me in heaven if I wind up there because I was too nervous about losing his old gun to use it to save my life? You betcher bippie.

Anything that saves your life once more than pays for itself. And like others have said above, it's not like a Mossberg is irreplaceable. I had one instructor tell me, if you ever lose anything to the police after a self defense shooting, CALL THE MANUFACTURER, tell them that their product just saved your life, and see if they don't offer to replace it for FREE. Certainly not impossible, and no harm in trying.

I do keep a tricked out SKS as my main truck gun because it's cheap and can be replaced easily.

[JFrame]

I agree the gun should be returned to you, eventually.

But it may spend six months in a humid evidence room, with sweaty fingerprints all over it. While residing under a pile of stolen bicycles & power tools.

rc


...Maybe this is good justification for my HD long gun being a Mossberg 500 Mariner... :D

.

[2WheelsGood]

Isn't this argument a bit like owning a Bugatti Veyron but using a Ford Fiesta to race the Gumball instead so the Veyron doesn't get scratched?

No, it's nothing like that since a top quality HD pump shotgun is under $500 and a Veyron is about $1,000,000.00. I sure hope your life is worth more than $500.

[Panzercat]

Is there ever such a thing as being over gunned?

Don't ask my wife that question ;)

Oh, and not that I'm advocating this ($469-- More than my last mossy!) but just got a chuckle off the tactical double barrel featured here (http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger_double_defense.php). The idea itself isn't bad. The price point is all sorts of fail.

I sure hope your life is worth more than $500.

So you would pay $500 for that double barrel shotty above, right? Because inherant value is suddenly no longer relevant in your purchase, amiright? After all, you life(!) is on the line! Why not pay $1000 when you could pay $500?!

All this argument is getting really, really silly. In fact, I'd swear some of us are arguing just to argue. Just because your life has superior value doesn't mean you stop looking for the right tool for the right price with regards to its ability to do the job reliable. I was hoping I could find practical buying suggestions, not inane commentary on how ones life is worth more than some rusted piece o' crap that somebody might buy and that you're apparently the only one with modicum of common sense in that field.

It's really not that complicated, folks. Just stop already.

[Dobe]

Your argument is one of substitution. You asked us for our ideas on your substitution. My idea is that you do not. My reasoning is that you think more of the former than the latter. This is evident in that you would rather have the double confiscated than your pump.

Most peoples' suggestion is that you match the value of the gun you like and are willing to use to "get out of Dogde" with the value of self defense.

That is all.

I have chosen a Benelli M2 Tactical for my HD shotgun. I am fortunate, I can afford it. I realize that if I am forced to use it in a self defense situation, I will loose it for a period of time. It is worth the loss. Whether or not your pump is worth the loss is up to you.

You asked for the advice. You don't have to take it, but you do have to expect it.

[zhyla]

Pump guns are cheap. Just buy another Mossberg in case the police borrow the first one. Do make sure you get a receipt from the police.

Or don't. I've got plenty of guns that will do in a pinch. I can always go buy another shotgun after the police take mine and make do with a pistol in the interim.

[JShirley]

Anything that saves your life once more than pays for itself.

Bears repeating. Good advice.

BUT- if I found out that the S&W revolver that was my primary HD piece was suddenly worth $13,000, I would probably get a new, at least as good S&W revolver for $800, and put the piece that almost worth my car in a safe or on sale.

J

[Rshooter]

I use a Remington 870 police. Never thought about losing it, never worried about it either. All of my guns have a purpose and this one's purpose is HD.

[ms6852]

I guess I gotta put my old 686, my Springfield loaded 1911 and my tactical 870 in safe and bring out a sprinfield GI 1911 and my PT99 Taurus out for home defense now. Never thought of losing my guns to the police in a Home Defense scenario, thanks for the post.

[Sheepdog1968]

There are real live examples of people living after having unexploded RPGs and morter rounds removed from them that have penetrated their bodies. There are also examples of folks being killed with 22 LR rounds. My point is, I wouldn't assume you are over gunned or undergunned with whatever you choose. Only you can make the choice. The least of your worries will be the cost of fire firearm that is confiscated if the DA decides to prosecute.

[Badlander]

My HD shotgun is A Benelli M1. I do think for most HD events A 18" double would defend me just as well. But since I have the Benelli that is what I will use.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

My Pardner Pump Compact---5+1--21'' barrel--20ga --13'' LOP---was only $159 brand new from Walmart----no big deal if it gets confiscated. 5 shells of #3 buck--hammer down on an empty chamber behind the bedroom door.

Ruger P95 close by also---$300 brand new---also no big deal if I were to lose it.

Both are rock solid and dead reliable.

[Sergeant Sabre]

If you have to use your HD shotgun, the last thing you will care about afterwards is losing it. You will be glad to be alive.

[Avenger29]

I figure for just HD, you don't need to over gun and i'm not expecting a phalanx of ninjas

Why handicap yourself, though?

Look, you own a gun for HD because you want to be ready in case someone IS TRYING TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND KILL YOU. WHY the hell would you even think you are overgunned? You WANT to be overgunned. When stuff goes bump in the night, or even worse, you hear a window being pryed open You WANT to pick up that instrument of death and mayhem and feel confident that you could lay waste to a couple of cars full of gangbangers without breaking a sweat.


"It served the frontier for the longest time,"

Yeah, and for HD my granddaddy favors a pair of cheap .32 S&W breakopen revolvers that don't even have a name stamped on them. No way in hell I'll ever trust my life to guns that are that crappy and pathetic. This is the 21st century, not the early 1900s. The people of the old days used the latest technologies and techniques, they didn't hold back if they didn't have to, especially once cartridge weapons became practical.

[Lovesbeer99]

A pump will typically be less expensive than a double. I youth model 20 gauge 870 is a good choice for a lot of people for in the house distances.

But to answer your original question I bought a Stoeger double defense and had problems with it. It was resplaced with a Stoeger single trigger supreme and I love it. It's fairly smooth and goes bang everytime. It's very simple and trustworthy. It would be a good idea to keep a back up 9mm or something just in case.

If I did't choose this, I'd pick an 870 pump.

[Panzercat]

A pump will typically be less expensive than a double.

Yeah, i'm noticing that as well. Somewhat surprised too. I guess I would have thought it the other way around. Simpler mechanism, 2 shots. Shopping around though doesn't show much of a price difference tho.

In this regard, I completely agree. If the price point is nearly equal, no reason not to go for a pump of some flavor. I fully believe that a double would do the job, but it's a moot point if they're the same.

Thanks all :)

Why handicap yourself, though?
When I have a couple of firearms in reserve, handicapped is a relative concept. For average joe breaking in, I think shotty 'x' is just fine (with reference to the above acknowlegement). If the phalanx of Ninja comes along, That justifies another response entirely. At that point, the more expensive stuff is warrented and the Evil Black Rifle™ comes out. I'd rather not lose the more expensive stuff to what comes down to a trash encounter, however, which was the point all along.

[arizona98tj]

A friend of mine had an HK USP stolen from his house by an acquaintance turned druggy... Low life used it to knock over a liqueur store with a few of his other scummy buddies.

My friend had reported it stolen prior to this incident, so when the cops recovered it at the scene they knew who it belonged to...

5 years later, that USP is STILL in their evidence locker.... ONE of the 4 guys involved in the robbery was never caught... so the case is still 'open'.

Long story short, the cops are never going to catch the last guy, and my friend will never get his $1,000 pistol back. It is going to rust into dirt in the county sheriffs evidence locker, on a technicality.

Did your friend not report it to the insurance company 5 years ago? Silly if he did not. If he did, he's not entitled to getting it back since the insurance company now owns it since they paid him for it.

[krazykeny]

Maverick Model 88 Tactical $150 to $200

[Bud Tugly]

I keep a break open single shot with 5 shells in a butt cuff for emergency situations. I didn't choose it because it's cheap and afford to lose it - I chose it because I've been using it for hunting and target shooting for nearly 50 years and I can run it with my eyes closed.

The weapon you choose is far less important than your ability to bring it into action with total confidence and familiarity in an emergency. Having a gun available that you are less than totally familiar with is false security, and you'd probably be better off with a baseball bat.

[lebowski]

I've never understood this line of thinking. If I ever have to use a firearm to defend myself, the least of my worries is that I might lose access to the gun for a few weeks or months, or even forever.

Guns are replaceable. In a SD situation I'd want my best, most reliable, and most effective gun that I've trained with the most.

[scythefwd]

naybore...
the fallacy of that argument is that it assumes a cheap gun won't go boom every trigger pull. I only have two guns worth over 500, and I only hace one that ever missfired. It was due to it being closed instead of being snapped shut (break action). Even my lowly 150 dollar rossi goes boom every time. Cost of the weapon doesn't equate to reliability of the weapon.

[jad0110]

Quote:
I figure for just HD, you don't need to over gun and i'm not expecting a phalanx of ninjas
Why handicap yourself, though?

Look, you own a gun for HD because you want to be ready in case someone IS TRYING TO BREAK INTO YOUR HOME AND KILL YOU. WHY the hell would you even think you are overgunned? You WANT to be overgunned.

Very true. I'd imagine in such a scenario, even my Mossberg 590 loaded up with 00 buck would feel puny. I'd much prefer a 105 aimed at the point of entry :D ;) .

naybore...
the fallacy of that argument is that it assumes a cheap gun won't go boom every trigger pull.

I'm not sure that's what naybore was implying, especially given the guns he said he owns in his post, none of which could be considered pricey. He was specifically referring to a $100 gun, which these days is likely an RG or Phoenix Arms, which are junk more than half the time.

I do agree with you though, inexpensive doesn't necessarily mean unreliable. One of my favorite carry guns is a 4" Ruger Police Service Six .357 that I paid $275 for last year. It is death and taxes reliable, and will probably outlive my future grand children.

[Shadow 7D]

THE-BOX-O-TRUTH
boxotruth.com

has wonderful articles where they try to recreate and test a much of this wisdom on the range.

[Ole Humpback]

I'm on the fence about a HD gun. I agree that there is no such thing as overgunning for HD. I'm very used to and familiar with Browning A5's and nothing would be better than the Buck Special A5 for HD to me. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to loose such a beautiful (and expensive) gun just because I used it to protect myself.

Having had a gun pulled on me at work, I can say that if I'm in this kind of situation, I'm not really going to have time to pull the gun out and/or load it. I've found that having a good Scottish Claymore (not anything special, just an off the shelf modern sword) is more handy for me as I keep my guns stored unloaded and store the ammo separate. Its hanging by my bed, 5'+ long, weighs a ton, perfectly silent, and is sharp enough for most people not wearing armor.

On the armor note, why can't you buy armor? I've been looking at vests and such out of curiosity (just finished playing Ghost Recon AW) and they all carry the "must be military, LE, or security to buy this" note. I understand not wanting criminals to be armored like the military, but if someone broke into my house with a gun, I'd feel and be much safer wearing a Crye Precision Chassis with shoulder armor, trauma plates, frag collar and blast belt than my birthday suite and any given type of arm.

[tactikel]

The only time a HD shooting is justifiable is if you or a family member is in mortal danger (at least in ILL.). Any weapon you use to defend your family should be one in which you have absolute mastery and confidence. Building a safe queen, but using the cheapest shotgun you can find to protect your life is IMHO unwise. Buy a gun you can afford, and practise with it (at least 500 rounds) until you can load it and clear a jam in the dark. Know what shot it patterns best (00 or 000) and can easily hit targets at HD ranges (5-10 yards) keep at it!

[Ole Humpback]

tactikel

That makes complete sense. I guess its an issue of how much "insurance" are you willing to buy for HD. And I think it also has to do with the hope of never having to use it. $1000 for a HD gun seems like alot when you're pretty confident you'll never need it, but after the fact (as others have said) its paid for itself.

[scythefwd]

jad- it wasn't naybors argument, it was his wifes ccw instructors. My rossi was valued at 150 &nd is considered to be no better than a phoenix by some on this board. The point of the instructors comment is that you want the best you can afford and it implies that cost is directly related to quality. I say you want the most reliable, without regards to cost. If me 150 dollar gun has never had a ftf by my 500 dollar gun has... Then I want my cheap gun for hd. My mossberg is as about as cheap as you get when it comes toshotguns, and if it'll take a deer at 60 yds, it'll take a bg at 25.