AK vs. VZ58 vs. VZ2008


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A_Matthew
December 24, 2010, 10:40 PM
As the title implies, I would like to know your thoughts on these three rifles. Please explain why you chose the one you did. Also, for those of you who have shot any/all of these, please list any FTF's, FTE's, etc etc etc.
Thanks in advance. Matthew

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nalioth
December 24, 2010, 10:51 PM
Why not use the search?

All you want to know has been gone over and over and over here . . .

VZ.58 Club - THR (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=532889)

A_Matthew
December 24, 2010, 11:48 PM
nalioth: I actually already found that thread. The bulk of the info was on the vz58, (obviously) and only a little info on the AK. There was some discussion on AK vs. vz58, but not the amount I was looking for. There are two major things I am looking for by starting this thread. 1. People who have shot all three, and say that shooting X was a lot better than X, and they experienced way less jams with X... 2. People who have only shot one or two of the types mentioned, but they noticed if you did this, this happened and they really like it because of X...
I hope you now understand why I started this thread.:)
Matthew
P.S. Since when I looked through the aforementioned thread, I was skimming through it pretty quickly looking for the keyword, AK. So if there was more discussion on the topic of AK vs VZ58 that I missed, please tell me what page/post number it was, and I'll definitely check it out. Thanks:)

A_Matthew
December 26, 2010, 05:56 PM
Anyone????

CnRnut
December 26, 2010, 06:37 PM
My buddy has a CzechPoint VZ58 and the thing is very nice.
Now till the end of the year Century is offering the
VZ2008 for $349

If I had the funds to shop,I'd add one to the collection.
I've had good dealings with Century's service dept,not that I
liked using it,but they did fix the issue with the gun I had.

VZ-58 @$750
Vz2008 $349

The only reason I'm pushing the VZ is I own lots of AK's. ;)

animator
December 26, 2010, 07:09 PM
Built a VZ-58 using an ORF receiver and compliance parts. I don't shoot it much, but have been happy with it from the little use it's seen.


Trigger (ORF design) leaves a lot to be desired, at what feels to be a 15lb pull, but it breaks crisply. Accuracy is well above any 7.62 AK I own. The 5.45 bulgarians can hold tighter groups though...


I don't have any experience with the VZ2000s, other than the few I've held at gunshows...


Edit to add the obligatory VZ-58 is 11 better than the AK-47.


But in all seriousness, I've never had any issues with either type of rifle. I don't like the small pistol grip found on the VZ-58, compared to the somewhat larger AK grips, but I have extra-large hands. I also don't like the short buttstock found on the VZ-58, and am kinda disappointed no one makes a longer one. I'm a huge fan of the NATO-length AK stocks, again because I'm a bit on the extra-large size (6'4" - 6'5" range)

AKs tend to send brass flying 30-40 feet to the right of the shooter, whereas the VZ will pop them almost directly up, kinda like an SKS. Some people find it annoying, but personally it doesn't bother me much.

They're both equally easy to disassemble for cleaning, although the FCG in the VZ is quite a bit different from the AK.

VZs have a BHO, which is nice, whereas most AKs do not.

allfouledup
December 26, 2010, 07:59 PM
I vote vz58. 1: I like the design. 2: I've seen guys at the range shooting at targets under 25 yrds and the targets looked like they had buckshot patterns instead of rifle groups. Never shot any of the three, but I'm saving for a D-technic.

A_Matthew
December 26, 2010, 08:15 PM
2: I've seen guys at the range shooting at targets under 25 yrds and the targets looked like they had buckshot patterns instead of rifle groups.

You mean the AK is inaccurate? Hmm. My friend got 1 1/2in groups with his at 100yds.

AKs tend to send brass flying 30-40 feet to the right of the shooter, whereas the VZ will pop them almost directly up, kinda like an SKS. Some people find it annoying, but personally it doesn't bother me much.

I don't reload, so I'd actually prefer it if it chucked the brass out pretty far.


Well, I think I am going to make an AK from a kit, (see my other thread) and depending how my monetary situation is doing, I might get a VZ58 or VZ2008. Any preference between the two? (In this case, money is a semi-big consideration.) Thanks
Matthew

allfouledup
December 26, 2010, 08:21 PM
I should have added: I'm sure they are not all that inaccurate, I just don't know which are or aren't.

animator
December 26, 2010, 09:26 PM
In all honesty, I've found that the people complaining about AK accuracy are either those who can't shoot very well, or are those who expect to match the performance of a benchrest rifle.


I have some Bulgarian AK-74s that can easily shoot 3" at 100 yards, maybe less on a good day if I'm really trying. Conversely, I have some M64s that can't hold 6" at 50 yards due to worn barrels and a tough life during a civil war.


It takes a lot more than simply "being an AK" to make an AK not accurate enough for most recreational shooters, in my opinion.

allfouledup
December 26, 2010, 09:43 PM
Personally, if I bought an Ak and could consistently get 3" groups at 50 yrds, I'd be more than satisfied. You gotta take into account what the thing was designed for.

briansmithwins
December 26, 2010, 10:02 PM
I voted for AK.

1) Rotary locking bolt has better primary extraction than the tilting bolt.
2) Huge open spaces in teh receiver so dirt can get out of the way.
3) Simpler trigger group.
4) Field strips to fewer parts.
5) Near ubiquity of spare parts and mags.

BSW

crazyivan
December 26, 2010, 10:33 PM
I see two good things about the VZ over the AK.
Those are the safety is a lot easier and faster to move and it has a BHO and can use stripper clips. Also you can move the charging handle on to the left side if you like.

But at the moment there is more mags, parts and stuff for the AK right now and I dont think the VZ will ever become more common at least not for a long time.

A_Matthew
December 27, 2010, 02:27 AM
Lots of decisions to make here...:)
I would normally jump on the AK, but after reading this, you have to wonder if there's more to a VZ58? I'll let ya' know which I decide on. Of course it might take a month or two to save up for it....
Matthew

nalioth
December 27, 2010, 03:49 AM
I would normally jump on the AK, but after reading this, you have to wonder if there's more to a VZ58?The Vz58 is what the AK should have been, but the Soviets were too proud to adopt the design.

It surpasses the AK in all ways but production numbers.

stubbicatt
December 27, 2010, 08:32 AM
The AK is not necessarily inaccurate. A friend of mine has a 20 year old son who was shooting his Romy G using Hotshot ammo at 400+ yards and was maybe 8" group on steel at that distance. His vision is keen and he had no problem holding that group off of a rest while prone.

Myself and another friend shot one of those fixed stock Century assembled Yugo rifles at approximately 350 yards and were readily destroying a yellow detergent bottle. To me that is a headshot at that distance, from kneeling, unsupported.

Both were 7.62x39 caliber.

The user can move the charging handle of the VZ to the left? That does it! I'm sold on that design.

rogertc1
December 27, 2010, 08:38 AM
VZ-58

Andrew Wyatt
December 27, 2010, 12:26 PM
are you left handed? if so, the VZ-58 is the only one worth considering.

briansmithwins
December 27, 2010, 12:42 PM
are you left handed? if so, the VZ-58 is the only one worth considering.

Interesting.

The left handed guys I shoot with consider the AK to be optimized for left handed shooters: safety, mag release, and bolt handle are all readily available to a leftie's free right hand.

BSW

A_Matthew
December 27, 2010, 01:30 PM
I'm actually right-handed.
Okay, so now for the million dollar question.:cool: Since I can get a VZ2008 for $360 at J&G Sales, is spending the extra money for a VZ58 worth it? I mean, every review on the VZ2008 was a five-star. I'm not too worried about fit and finish, as I would probably replace most of the furniture. Plus, it parkerized. How did they finish the VZ58?
Thanks. Matthew

nalioth
December 27, 2010, 03:59 PM
Since I can get a VZ2008 for $360 at J&G Sales, is spending the extra money for a VZ58 worth it?Do you like gambling? If so, buy a Century-manufactured product.

For a sure thing, buy the Czech import.

You know the old saying: "Buy cheap - get cheap"

walker944
December 27, 2010, 11:32 PM
Do you like gambling? If so, buy a Century-manufactured product.

Century International does not manufacture anything, they are exclusively an importer.

nalioth
December 27, 2010, 11:53 PM
Do you like gambling? If so, buy a Century-manufactured product.
Century International does not manufacture anything, they are exclusively an importer.Sure, okay.

"Do you like gambling? If so, buy a produced-for-Century-and-sold-with-Century's-name-on-it product."

How's that?

Youngster
December 28, 2010, 02:28 AM
I prefer the feel, handling and shooting characteristics of the VZ-58 but the AK seems to be more robust in operation and wins big in the magazine department as far as durability, availability and sheer scope of choice goes.

I don't have a huge preference either way but would like the '58 a lot more if there were better mags available.

nalioth
December 28, 2010, 03:00 AM
I don't have a huge preference either way but would like the '58 a lot more if there were better mags available.Please define "better".

Vz58 mags weigh ⅓ what an AK mag weighs, and do not rust.

Youngster
December 28, 2010, 04:37 AM
Please define "better".

Vz58 mags weigh ⅓ what an AK mag weighs, and do not rust.

As in MUCH more durable, longer lasting.

AK steel mags may be heavy {weighing between 1 and .72 lbs empty vs .42 lbs for the '58 aluminums} but there are polymer mags available for the AK that are as light as the VZ aluminums, are actually tougher than the AK steels, and they don't have that annoying aluminum tinniness and clatter.

Scott7891
February 12, 2011, 05:11 PM
I did not vote on this because I love them both but I can give advice. I own a Vz-58 and several AK's. I like them all equally. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

I like the AK because of reliability, simplicity, parts and mags are cheap and easy to find practically everywhere, is more well-known and many more variations of the design exist. The AK-74 at the moment has cheaper ammo and will be more accurate than 7.62 at the expense of raw power.

I like the Vz-58 because it is way more ergonomic, can use stripper clips, bolt hold open feature, bolt is not restricted by a top cover that goes over the entire breach so jams are less likely to happen when it comes to extraction (then again it is being compared to an AK, i just like the feature), and it is much lighter. Vz parts kits are cheaper at the moment than AK ones. Another plus is while OTOH the Vz is not well known it makes it more unique and also under the radar of gun-ban happy politicians since they all know about the AK but they have not even thought of or heard of the Vz.

Both are battle tested designs. Wherever the AK was sent you can guarantee the Czechs donated their Vz-58's right alongside "for the cause." I can guarantee that in Afghanistan now both sides are using the Vz and AK against one another.

I would avoid the Century VZ2008 at all costs.

I would get both and be happy like me. :D

rocinante
February 12, 2011, 07:37 PM
vz2008. I have two. Liked the one I got in first I ordered another the same day. So I got 2 for the price of 1 vz58. Some who own both, vz2008 and vz58, actually claim the vz2008 is more accurate without the chrome lining and with the longer american legal length barrel.

I also have a saiga ak I converted. Was good to know who the builder was and the parts are new.

Here is what makes either the czechs better than your run of the mill AK. You know who built it and what they used.

A_Matthew
February 15, 2011, 01:31 PM
Vz parts kits are cheaper at the moment than AK ones.

Anyone know where I could get a flat or an 80% receiver? Building one sure would be fun.:) Matthew

armoredman
February 15, 2011, 02:40 PM
There is no such thing as a vz-58 flat - they are milled receivers, sorry. Czechpoint sells receivers occasionally, but the vz-58 is rated a difficult build.
I have owned WASRs and Hungarian AKs, and 1 vz-58. I am MUCH happier with the vz-58. Mine is more accurate, (I have the vanity to think I know how to shoot a rifle, to the poster who suggested otherwise), lighter, and it came perfect out of the box. Last AK I had that didn't need work was a Hungarian I purchased in California back in 1987...The WASR we got rid of was a Century with tilted gas block and needing a Red Star trigger group.
The vz-58 DOES have longer stocks and accessories, go to http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/ for some very cool accessories, such as the Neit Arms extended bolt release and ambi mag release. I can drop the mag, release the bolt and manipulate the safety all with the right hand in a firing grip. Also, mags are not QUITE as cheap as AK, but $13 a pop from Czechpoint is pretty good. Mags are also more durable than they look. BTW, Neit Arms also makes a bolt carrier with the handle on the other side, up at an angle or flat, or even ambidextrous. Great guys up there.
I have no direct knowledge of the Century built/imported vz-2008, but what little experience I have had with Century the company would make me hesitate a LONG time before ordering something from them. The warrantee starts the day the rifle is BUILT, not when it is sold. Czechpoint stands behind their products 110%, and Dan is one heck of a great guy. I will say I have heard some people state they got very nice vz-2008s.
My vote,
vz-58

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/CZ%20posters/vz58andchestpouch.jpg

A_Matthew
February 24, 2011, 02:25 AM
Do any of you know if VZ58 accessories are compatible with a VZ2008? I'm now leaning for the VZ2008. Part of what helped me with the decision were the glowing reviews on J&G Sales. (15 out of 15 reviews were 5 star!) Thanks, Matthew

P.S. Nice looking rifle! ^^^^
Do you mind if I ask what kind of stock you have on it?

nalioth
February 24, 2011, 02:30 AM
Do any of you know if VZ58 accessories are compatible with a VZ2008? I'm now leaning for the VZ2008. Part of what helped me with the decision were the glowing reviews on J&G Sales. (15 out of 15 reviews were 5 star!)Yes, they will (for accessory purposes, they're the same rifle).

I would like to point out that reviews on a sales site may not be accurately represented (you know, they might not approve any negative reviews, as those hinder sales). They might not even be "real" people (it's a common practice to fill reviews with shill content).

A_Matthew
February 24, 2011, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Nalioth
I would like to point out that reviews on a sales site may not be accurately represented (you know, they might not approve any negative reviews, as those hinder sales). They might not even be "real" people (it's a common practice to fill reviews with shill content).

On some reviews of other guns on their website, some people didn't have very nice things to say, and their posts weren't deleted, but I will take your point into consideration.
Now that I know that VZ58 accessories will work on a VZ2008, I can go check out that VZ58 thread here on THR for some ideas on 'tacticalizing' my future gun.:D Thanks again, Matthew

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