[Texasred]

I have a Ruger SP 101 and a GP 100. Both of the guns were bought used and work perfectly fine.
The GP 100 is a bit of an oddity though. It's one of the canadian century reimported models.
They're converted to DAO, fixed sights, 4" bbl, and slim SP 101 grips and what feels like a very heavy trigger pull.
I like the gun, it's sleek, feels like it was dehorned, no snags(no hammer), but the trigger is very heavy. Being a police gun I imagine they purposely were built with heavy pulls especially being DAO. I really can't hit much of anything standing at 25yds, which I can do well with my other revolvers.
The SP on the other hand could use a little improvement. I can hit with it but the trigger is a little stiff in double action.

I want to buy a trigger scale and then buy some wolf springs for both guns. Since both are potential carry guns from time to time what should I worry about?

[357 Terms]

I have heard all kinds of ridiculous almost paranoid rants in regard to self defense scenarios, dont use handloads, dont use hollowpoints, dont use magnum calibers, hair triggers will get prosecuted. I personally have changed springs, I use handloads, hollowpoints, I carry a 357 mag. I really dont think you have anything to worry about in regards to a DAO revolver having lighter springs. My advice- change them and dont think twice about it.

[Old Fuff]

I doubt that changing the spring(s) in a DAO revolver would cause any legal problems, although it might in a SA/DA revolver and in a very "blue" ultra-progressive (read that to mean left-wing liberal) area some attorney might try to make a case on the basis you accidently and unintentionally shot the scumbag because you used the SA "hair trigger." Or they might try to convince a gun-dumb judge and jury that you changed the springs to make a more effective "killing machine." Both are possible, and have been tried, but I don't think they went anywhere. Therefore I wouldn't worry about the legal aspect, unless you are living where my above description fits.

A more importent matter is that reducing spring tensions can also affect reliability. Personally I don't want to stake my life (and perhaps that of others) by carrying a revolver that under some adverse conditions might not go BANG! The best professional gunsmiths that specialize in action work do not simply polish parts here and there, and put in reduced tension springs. They retrofit parts and do other things to reduce overall friction that increases the weight of a double-action pull. Doing this requires both skills and tools, gauges, jigs and fixtures that most do-it-yourself Internet advisers never heard of, let alone do.

Professional action work is often expensive, but the result is a trigger pull that is snooth, reasonably light, and still reliable under all conditions, and with any ammunition.

[LightningMan]

Quote; Does Replacing Springs Really Bring Legal Issues in a Carry Gun?
IMO, only if you shoot when you shouldn't or don't mean to, but that can happen even with a stock pistol. It's probably less likely to happen with a stock pistol vs a pistol with customized action trigger job when you are pumped up with adrealin in a stressfull situation. Personally for SD I'd rather have a non-altered (heavier trigger pull) over a competition type trigger job. LM

[dashootist]

Yes, I think a hair trigger is ammo for the prosecution against you. However, this ammo is like BBs. My gun instructor was a lawyer who wrote the TX castle doctrine. He carries a 1911 with light and smooth trigger, and he is a real shooter. If the guy who wrote the law ain't worry about it, I ain't going to. I think reduced spring is at the bottom of the list of legal issues you need to worry about.

[PRM]

I would be more concerned if my actions met the legal standard for using deadly force.

If it is a good shoot ~ it won't matter. If you are justified in using deadly force, you could use a gun, baseball bat or kitchen skillet to stop the immediate threat.

On the other hand if its a bad shoot ~ there is not a spring made that will make it good.

[rcmodel]

No.
It is very unlikely any cop or lawyer could spot or even know the difference in spring weight unless you told them you did it.

By the same token, what if I used my skeet shotgun with the custom made stock to shoot a BG in my home?

What if I brained him with a custom made golf club instead of a Wallyworld golf club?

See?

rc

[Drail]

I agree with RC. I seriously doubt that any law enforcement or lawyer would even be able to tell considering that decisions on what type of guns that law enforcement should and actually do employ are made by administrative clowns that know nothing about firearms. I also think that from a legal standpoint it would not matter in a courtroom any more than a scenario where you ran over some old lady with a Ferarri would put you in a worse position legally than if you did the same thing with a Yugo. Of course, whenever you're dealing with lawyers almost anything is possible.

[waidmann]

I bought a S&W 681, also a DAO re-import. Gave it a complete overhaul.

Sometimes I think a few of our local carry instructors get carried away with potential civil liability fear mongering.

You also read of people concerned about "losing" expensive handguns after a shooting.

Anyone this anxious about carrying a weapon might be better served leaving the things unloaded and under lock.

[EddieNFL]

What if I brained him with a custom made golf club instead of a Wallyworld golf club?

"Members of the jury...this club was made specifically for inflicting as much injury as possible. Combine that with the fact the owner is a trained golfer and you have a very effective killing machine. Furthermore, the defendant never bothered to register this club and a search of his home turned up dozens of golf tees and more than 1,000 Titleist balls."

[nalioth]

In a good shoot, no. It'll be an "open and shut" case, and the Grand Jury will no-bill you.

In a questionable or bad shoot (which finds you in a court room), the opposing legal team will use any and all facts to portray you as a criminal (that's their job).

[Messenger Guard]

A good shoot is a good shoot.

[aryfrosty]

...To spot the experts who have never been in a "shooting" or criminal proceeding in court. If your mods are responsible and safe and done by a professional then you might be golden. If you, however, wish to gamble with your family, your fortune and freedom, then, by all means, take everything these experts say as gospel and tear it up. When something bad happens please don't start posting requests for your "defense fund" and whining about how you "just didn't know".:uhoh:

[Shadow 7D]

what ever dude, the only one I have heard about is some kid who shot himself in the head with a blank at a HIGH SCHOOL PLAY BACK STAGE and in that case the parent was trying to claim that the revolver was faulty and often would fail to fire in double action, sounding to me as a ploy to increase the schools liability

instead of the true story, idiot teen puts gun to head and pulls trigger. many many trigger jobs are done every year, in a SD, a good shoot is a good shoot, whether with a howitzer, race gun, blunderbuss or BB gun.

[W.E.G.]

Never heard of the springs being an issue.

A couple threads dealing with handload issues.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=2129976#post2129976

http://www.gunatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5514

I suppose the spring issue might come up if the shooter offered some cockamamy defense regarding an unintended shot, and claimed it had something to do with the springs.

Any ammo modification or firearm modification *could* be used as an argument to show intent or negligence. By the time the issue comes up, you're already in a heap of trouble. The equipment issue is just some stupid red herring for the gun-board geeks to blither about.

[Sam1911]

If you shoot only when you must to preseve your life or that of a loved one, you may never face a jury.

If you DO face a jury, chances are that there will be serious points of debate between your defense attorney and the prosecution which attempt to convince a jury of the reasonableness and necessity of the homicide or attempted homicide you've committed.

There is some non-zero chance that (in this worst case of the worst cases of the worst case scenarios) a prosecutor will decide to investigate and bring into evidense your modifications to the gun (or what kind of ammo you used, the fact that you read Guns & Ammo, or that you wear camo underwear) as somehow pertinent to establishing your predisposition to commit this act, thus calling into question the necessity of it -vs.- willfulness on your part.

To my way of thinking, the benefits a good trigger job, decent sights, better stocks, etc. have on my shooting -- today, tomorrow, and in the extremely unlikely event that I have to shoot someone -- far outweigh those risks.

[Messenger Guard]

Bravo SAM 1911.

[Prosser]

Kind of curious:
Do you EVER put your finger in the trigger guard, near the trigger, with your gun loaded, and pointed at someone, without the intent to shoot? I NEVER have. Proper training is REALLY important, and sticking with it.

As for springs and trigger jobs:

I took my .357 360PD to JRH Advanced Gunsmithing, and, the best he would do is reduce the trigger from factory 17 pounds DA, to a pretty smooth 10 pounds, and an excellent SA. He wouldn't go any lower, because he would not reduce the reliability of the gun.

This guy was so good that when I got the great idea of installing the lightest wolfe spring kit they make for that gun, the trigger pull got worse, and, went from 10 pounds
to 12 pounds, or more.

Needless to say, I put the original springs back in the gun.

Merry Christmas to all.
PS
I pretty much agree with Sam1911. However, it is really area specific, since the DA you deal with is a product of their ambition, belief in the law, and their concept of the function, and theory of the law, and, the people that elected him might influence it as well.

For an extreme example: Trying a marijuana case in San Francisco is a complete waste of time. With the makeup of the San Francisco jury pool it is pretty much an impossibility to get 12 jurors who will convict.

Even in Federal Court in the area, you can win, and the judge may sentence to time served. Go 50 miles inland, and, that same Marijuana is a 98% conviction for the the Contra Costa DA.

The reason I bring this up is the last DA I was around in SF wouldn't consider wasting time and money on a marijuana case.

The Contra Costa DA would prosecute in a second, and win 99% of the time, or not file. So, the point being know your local law enforcement, know your DA's tendencies, and if you don't know, find out. Know your jury pool.

One of the issues that makes me really sick is what happened to Gilbert Arenas in Washington D.C., or Heller.
Showing friends a couple guns in a card game in Texas? Heck, the only thing the police might do is want to look at them too, and, unless you used, or pointed one at someone in ire, there is no charge. In Arizona now you don't even need a permit to carry CCW. Being in Washington, a place you can't buy, own, or legally carry unless you are one of our congress elite types, he was just in the wrong place, period.

So, keep in mind your area can be as different from Arizona as night from day, or, it can be the same.

[JohnBT]

"Being in Washington, a place you can't buy, own, or legally carry unless you are one of our congress elite types"

You certainly can buy and own in D.C.

And Arenas is a special person and wasn't treated the same as most people are, he didn't get any jail time for having 3 guns in D.C. and taking them out to taunt a fellow player. Of course the guy threw one to the floor and said he had his own. Morons.

[Avenger29]

I want to buy a trigger scale and then buy some wolf springs for both guns. Since both are potential carry guns from time to time what should I worry about?

Only thing you need to worry about is reducing reliability (big concern) or inducing safety issues (not likely when changing springs, but likely if you start grinding on stuff without knowing what you are doing)

[Prosser]

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
Syllabus
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ET AL. v. HELLER
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR
THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
No. 07–290. Argued March 18, 2008—Decided June 26, 2008
District of Columbia law bans handgun possession by making it a crime
to carry an unregistered firearm and prohibiting the registration of
handguns; provides separately that no person may carry an unlicensed
handgun, but authorizes the police chief to issue 1-year licenses;
and requires residents to keep lawfully owned firearms
unloaded and dissembled or bound by a trigger lock or similar device.
Respondent Heller, a D. C. special policeman, applied to register a
handgun he wished to keep at home, but the District refused. He
filed this suit seeking, on Second Amendment grounds, to enjoin the
city from enforcing the bar on handgun registration, the licensing requirement
insofar as it prohibits carrying an unlicensed firearm in
the home, and the trigger-lock requirement insofar as it prohibits the
use of functional firearms in the home.

How many gun shops are operating in D.C.?
IIRC, they ran all but one or two out of business, so you can't buy a gun in the area, and, you can't bring one in from outside.

[Deaf Smith]

Texas,

I have NEVER heard of a court case where revolvers springs, having been replaced, hand any effect on the proceedings.

Now making the gun a hair-trigger SA, yea that can have an effect IF it's a grey area shooting, but making it a simple smooth DA pull with, say 11, lb of weight? No.

Deaf

[The Lone Haranguer]

There are numerous anecdotes about guns modified to have so-called "hair triggers" causing problems, but no actual case law. Usually - according to the stories - this takes the form of the plaintiff's (i.e., the BG you just shot) lawyer making an issue of it, and then usually in the civil trial (which is distinct from the criminal phase, with a lower standard of proof). But a DAO is not a "hair trigger." I have other reasons for not wanting my springs cut or reduced in power, and that is the reliability of the firearm. I would rather just have the parts fitted correctly and their rubbing/sliding surfaces polished. I will take an extra pound or two in pull force if 100% ignition reliability is assured.

[Jamie B]

It seems to be important on the internet, but nowhere else.

I would not worry.

I have also never seen an official legal description of a hair trigger.

Be safe, use common sense, and you will be fine.

[RickD427]

First off, I’m not a lawyer, so consider all of the corresponding disclaimers having been made. I have been an LEO for more than 30 years in a large metropolitan department.

When you get involved in a shooting incident, you’ll find yourself liable to at least four different courts (your state’s criminal court, state civil court, federal criminal court, and federal civil court). A private person’s likelihood of going to a federal court is less than for an LEO.

In the criminal and civil arenas, if the facts show that the shooting was justified, your weapon functioned as intended, and no innocents were harmed, then your weapon modifications are pretty much irrelevant. I’ve never seen a case involving a private person or LEO where this has been an issue. Courts exist to try issues and the rules of evidence are designed to keep irrelevant stuff out.

Where you’re likely to have a problem in the criminal arena is when the weapon does not function as intended. Suppose as an example that you’ve got an extremely light trigger with minimal sear engagement, you’re covering a suspect while awaiting search and cuffing. You get hit from behind (another officer stumbles, forgot to put his car in park, etc) and your weapon discharges. Its then fair for your prosecuting agency to ask if your weapon modifications overcame the “margin of safety” designed into the weapon. That “margin of safety: is also getting bigger over time with DAO semi-autos and the “New York” triggers. I don’t know of any actual cases right on this point. A good recent case on this concept was the Mesherle case (the BART officer who shot a suspect with a firearm believing that it was his Taser). The court found him negligent in failing to distinguish between his weapons, the same concept of negligence could apply to weapon modifications.

The real risk is in the civil arena when the weapon does not function as intended and someone is harmed. In the criminal case, a prosecuting authority will look at your actions and make a (hopefully) unbiased decision. The vast majority of these decisions that I’ve had the opportunity to review found the shootings to be justified and no further action was taken. In the civil arena, a private attorney, who has a fee motivation, examines the case for the recovery potential. It’s not a fair process. If there is an issue in the case that a jury might find persuasive, expect them to latch onto it and argue it to the jury. Weapons modifications are a perfect target (no pun). That trick isn’t limited to modifications. I read of a case (and I wish that I kept a copy. If anyone else recalls the case, I’d sure appreciate a copy) where a private person was involved in a justified shooting using a 10mm handgun, in a state without “Castle Doctrine” protections. The criminal authorities were satisfied that the shooting was justified, but the citizen was sued. The attorney described the 10mm round as being extremely lethal, more than any law enforcement officer would carry, and that the use of such an extremely power round demonstrated a desire to kill more than to protect. From memory, I recall that jury awarded damages. The real danger in a civil trial is that the other side doesn’t have to be right. They only have to be persuasive.

[Waywatcher]

I'm not as concerned about legal issues as I am about reliability issues.

There is always a trade-off to lighter springs that is seldom mentioned, like slower lock time, less hammer velocity, etc.

[nalioth]

When you get involved in a shooting incident, you’ll find yourself liable to at least four different courts (your state’s criminal court, state civil court, federal criminal court, and federal civil court). A private person’s likelihood of going to a federal court is less than for an LEO.You might want to be a bit more generic in your exposition.

In Texas, a good shoot is - by law - not eligible for a civil trial.

[RickD427]

Point well taken, I did make reference to "Castle Doctrine" states (like Texas) later in the posting. My frame of reference is California. Things are a little different (not necessarily for the better) out here.

[Old Fuff]

RickD427

You're right, (in post #25) but we may the only two members of this forum that believe it. ;)

I have also never seen an official legal description of a hair trigger.

In a number of cases, it has been defined by expert witnesses as " a trigger pull weighing less then the manufacture's minimum specification."

If the case is based on the position that the firearm unintentionally discharged, and a court-recognized expert witness testifies that the trigger pull was modified to be less then factory spec. the defendant/respondent may have a serious problem becaues both the judge and jury may know little about firearms, and maybe care less beyond the idea that they don't like them. :uhoh:

[ArchAngelCD]

BUT... This handgun was bought used and who know what was done to it before it was in your possession??? :p

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Another thing to consider is the fact that how would they know? Are they really going to take your gun apart into pieces to find out?

[blakdawg]

Following a self-defense shooting, there's a fair chance that the shooter will be sued by the bad guy. A homicidal/suicidal armed robber took three gun store employees hostage here in the SF Bay Area about 10 years ago; one of the gun store employees shot the robber, who survived. The robber filed a civil suit against the gun store and the employee claiming that he was shot negligently. The suit was settled with a minimal payment to the robber from the store's insurance carrier.

My point in mentioning that is not to inflame everyone with the idiocy of it but to point out that the legal theory underlying the alleged liability wasn't that the employee chose to commit an intentional tort - but that he was negligent, and that his negligence caused an injury to the plaintiff.

In that context, something like a trigger modification or home reloaded ammo would give the potential plaintiff more points to argue. They don't have to argue about whether or not the defender was in fear of his life, they can argue about whether or not his finger slipped, or whether or not the gun fired itself, or other ridiculous things.

The "how are they gonna catch me??" ideas go nowhere, legally speaking. If you "lose" or modify the gun after the shooting, you're giving the plaintiff a chance to argue that you did so to destroy otherwise admissible evidence. If a judge buys that idea, he can instruct the jury that they can (or even must) assume that the evidence that's not available would have been favorable to the plaintiff (bad guy) and unfavorable to the defendant (self-defense guy).

Civil suits include a process called "discovery", where each side must disclose essentially everything it knows about the underlying dispute to the other side. The precise details of this depend on the court you're in, but the underlying idea is the same. The other side can force you to testify, under oath, about how and where you bought the gun, the ammo, the holster, and how they were modified, if at all. They can force you to turn over any records you have that will show those things. Compliance with this is somewhat self-enforcing - but if you're caught fudging the evidence, it's likely to turn out very badly for you.

Remember the lesson of Watergate, Iran/Contra, and Monica Lewinsky - it's not the crime, it's the cover-up that gets you.

And yes, if you're potentially talking about a verdict or settlement in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, someone will take the time to take your gun apart and figure out whether or not it was factory stock or modified or badly maintained or whatever. There's plenty of disagreement among "gun people" about what's safe and what's not safe - and all the plaintiff needs to do is find some gunsmith who doesn't like whatever it was that was done to your pistol, and ask him to testify that the mods made it possible that for some reason the shoot was the result of negligence, not an intentional act.

(But, having said that, I also want to say that I think these "bad guy sues defender" lawsuits are mostly urban legend; and that many states have reasonable "castle doctrine" or other rules that help defenders. I don't think people should organize their lives around the tiny possibility that they might be involved in a self-defense shooting, and that that shooting might lead to a significant civil suit. It's possible, yes. Buy if you're not an LEO and you really believe that there's a good chance you're going to need to shoot someone in self-defense, you really ought to worry about changing the rest of your life to reduce your risks, instead of worrying about parts in your carry gun.)

[esquare]

Well, several things about this - first this is not legal advice. Who knows what will happen in court. Now, with a DA/SA revolver, if you lighten the DA trigger pull to something somewhat light, the SA trigger pull may now be in the 2-3 lb range - very light. If the revolver is converted to DAO, this isn't a problem. I think you would probably run into light primer strikes on a DAO gun before getting the trigger too light to be unusable for self defense.

Now, as far as measuring the trigger pull, I don't know what some of these guys are saying - if you run into a DA that wants to make your life miserable, of course they will take the time to measure the trigger pull, open the revolver up and measure the spring weights, then subpoena an engineer from the manufacturer to testify what factory pull weight should be, and go from there. Don't for a second think that a crooked DA won't try to get a conviction on you because you thought it was a 'good shoot'. Measuring the revolver trigger pull and springs would take a normal smith about 5 minutes. Calling the manufacturer to find out what the standard trigger pull should be is 20 minutes. This applies to semi-autos too.

So, don't get fooled into thinking that the basic question is stupid - you just have to make up your mind on what's reasonable and what's not. Do some research on accidental shootings, standard pull weights for defensive guns, etc, and come to your own conclusions.

[Prosser]

And do the research in your area.

Springs eventually drop a considerable amount of their tension. I think it's something like 50%, before they stabilize, that at least is true of the springs used in automatics, for slowing the slide.
Perhaps that explains why the J frames ship with such heavy DA trigger pulls to start? They figure the springs will loose 50% of their tension, and, the pull will be right around 10 pounds. Any lighter
and reliability becomes an issue?

One way to get a better trigger pull is to dry fire. Second is to store the gun with the trigger just about ready to fire:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f99/Socrates28/360PD%20range%20targets/DSC_0052360PDbullets8x6.jpg

Apparently when the springs are compressed, that causes them to loose their strength, and gives you a better trigger pull.

One must remember that the shooter is in Texas, and, Texas law makes civil suits illegal if the shooter is justified.

And yes, blakdawg, we live in a different country then Texas. It's Mexico now, isn't it?;)

[esquare]

Uh... is that revolver loaded? :-)

[Prosser]

If you call snap caps loaded, yes.:scrutiny: Notice the red hue...

[esquare]

Looked like brass on my screen last night - different monitor now so it looks more red. :-)

[HoosierQ]

As long as your modifications to the weapon are a) legal, and b) not inherently unsafe, such mods are highly unlikely to be an issue in court. That doesn't mean you won't have issues in court, but your modifications are not likely to be among them.

Now I suppose if you fit a bayonet on your pistol (they make one for automatics you know) that sort of silly, execessively tacticool modification may give someone a reason to call your sincerity into question...you know as the defender rather than the aggressor...but changing out springs? Forget about it.

And that business about storing your gun with the trigger almost pulled? That, I am sorry, is nonsense. This comes up almost weekly in Autoloaders and Rifle Country in the context of magazine springs. A spring, stationary, whether taught or relaxed, does not loosen up. Movement is what causes a spring to loosen up its tension.

[Prosser]

I stand corrected. When you have nearly a 17 pound trigger on an 11 oz gun, you hope every little bit will help.

By the way, this is combined with dry firing a LOT, hence the snap caps.