1911 Trigger Job Clinic Part 3 Disconnector


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bigjim
December 27, 2003, 06:20 PM
Part three will focus on the disconnector.

How do you know it is the right length? What should you polish and how should you do it?
What is the correct terms or names of the various surfaces or areas shown in the attached picture?
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=687388

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romulus
December 27, 2003, 09:29 PM
A) don't know what this portion is called
B) don't know what this portion is called
C) don't know what this portion is called
D) don't know what this portion is called

You would polish at A and C (slide and trigger yoke surfaces) (?)

Length I'm stumped...I've even seen "extra-long disconnectors" for sale :confused:

1911Tuner
December 28, 2003, 12:18 PM
Before we get too hung up on exact dimensions, first take a look at the
disconnector's function...How it works and what it does. Then the need
for correct dimensions will be more clearly understood. With so many
manufacturers building the 1911 pattern pistol these days, the exact
length may not mean much on a given pistol anyway...So many things
being out of spec, the correct length can vary a little from gun to gun.
The critical dimension is from the tip of the disconnector stem to the
top of the paddle. The overall length can be within blueprint tolerances,
and still not work if the distance between these two areas is wrong
for the gun that is on the bench.

When the pistol is ready to fire, the top of the disconnector paddle
slips up between the trigger stirrup and the sear legs. If it didn't, the
trigger couldn't trip the sear, so it might actually be called a connector.
It fills up the open space between trigger and sear, and connects them
for firing.

When the pistol fires and the slide moves backward, the tip of the disconnector is pushed downward a little, and the top of the paddle drops below the sear legs, DIS-connecting them so that the sear will reset into
the hammer hooks. If the top of the disconnector is too short...or the distance between the top of the disconnector and the top edge of the
paddle is too short...the connection can't be broken, and the sear stays
forward until the trigger resets. When the gun fires in this condition, the
hammer will follow the slide.

So...the disconnector must move upward far enough to "connect" the trigger and sear, and downward far enough to disconnect them when the
slide moves.

If the distance between the top of the disconnector and the top of the paddle is too great, the disconnector can't move up far enough to make
the connection,and the hammer won't fall. In the case of a weak or overtweaked center sear spring leg, it will allow the sear to let go of the
hammer hooks, but not far enough to get past the half-cock notch because
it slips off the sear leg, and gets caught in the disconnected position.

If the distance between the disconnector's top and the paddle is too great, and the result is the hammer failing to fall, some misinformed guys will figure it out and file or stone the top of the disconnector to make it move hgher in the slot. Now the hammer will fall, but the disconnector doesn't move downward far enough to let the sear reset. What to do? If you don't
have a parts bin full of disconnectors to switch and swap until the one
of the right length can be found, the cure is to deepen the slot in the
slide with a tool made specifically for the purpose. A scrape that is of the
right width to fit the slot. The trick is to deepen the slot without making it longer. In some rare instances, making the slot a little longer forward is
called for. The disconnector's hole is drilled too far forward, and the top of the disconnector doesn't move into the slot in the right position. I've run
into this on a few Auto Ordnance pistols. Another fix is to remove a little metal from the rear radius of the disconnector, and use a center punch
to displace metal at the top of the hole to reposition the disconnector in
the slot. On some really bad examples, it takes a little of both. Better to
get a little out of two areas than a lot out of one.


It's important that the disconnector moves freely up and down in the
channel. If it gets into any bind, it may not move into and out of position
correctly.

Stay tuned...

Tuner

bigjim
December 28, 2003, 04:36 PM
Tuner I am have a bit of trouble following you. Could you take a moment and take at a look at the picture and let us know what area you mean when you refer to the "pad" and so on. I am sure this is tedious for you but this is GREAT stuff for so many of us!

romulus
December 28, 2003, 04:47 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, like the definition of "clinic..." Is this clinic only for people who have already mastered the material and techniques for this sort of work? No propaedeutics for us ignorant folk? Just asking...

bigjim
December 28, 2003, 04:56 PM
Hey Romulus,

I guess we are assming a little bit of the reader. There is ample information on the web to show you how to take apart a 1911 and put it back to gether. Is that what you are after? If so let me know and I will hunt down some links for you.

But yes you are right. So far these "clinics" are kind of starting towards top. I would be a hundred dollars if you ask any specific question it will get answered!

Jim

1911Tuner
December 28, 2003, 05:15 PM
Hey bigjim,

If you mean the "paddle", it's the bottom fo the disconnector...flat on
one side, and lays against the trigger.

Romulus, bigjim's right. Ask a question, and somebody will answer it.
If you need a detailed explanation on detail stripping the pistol, it's not a
problem as I already have it written up on a notepad. All I have to do is
cut and paste it. The reason that I haven't is because it should be on a
separate thread...and nobody has asked.

bigjim...Those who don't know how are probably just too shy to ask.
Most guys, after having seen it done, are shocked at how simple and
quick it is, especially if their pistol doesn't have any extra "Lawyer Parts"
like the Series 80 Colts,and even those aren't bad.


Cheers!

Tuner

romulus
December 28, 2003, 05:30 PM
I'm not a neophyte, but if I'm asked to identify parts and components I'd just like to know if my answers were on track, is all. Otherwise what's the point of the questionnaire?

Didn't mean to put a damper on the clinic, I'll follow as best I can. I do owe you all my gratitude, I don't want to come across as an ingrate...I guess I just got a lil lost there.

Thanks.

1911Tuner
December 28, 2003, 06:06 PM
Ahh..Okay romulus. I assumed that bigjim was going to answer the parts
questions, and posted them as a way of kicking the threads off to start.
bj...Did I assume right?

Tuner

bigjim
December 28, 2003, 06:24 PM
Well Tuner the thing is.....I don't Know the "right names" for all the surfaces or parts of the parts. I was hoping that we could use the pictures and labels as a starting point to make sure we all are speaking the same language.

So yeah guys I could use some help identifiying the correct terms. it might help all of us beginners. ( me for sure)

romulus
December 28, 2003, 07:22 PM
Oh dear, my bad...

The misunderstanding is entirely mine, gentlemen. I just thought it was a pop-quiz. I won't be a disruptive student, I promise...

1911Tuner
December 28, 2003, 07:23 PM
bigjim said:

Well Tuner the thing is.....I don't Know the "right names" for all the surfaces or parts of the parts.

AH! Well, if it makes ya feel any better, I don't know all the correct
"blueprint" names either. I don't own a Kuhnhausen manual, and I've never been formally trained in an accredited 'smithin' skul...I know
several, but on the others, I tend to name'em by what they look like.
An example is the saddle versus the bed. It looks like a saddle, even
though I know it's the bed, and it avoids confusion when somebody
reads the description and figures that the lower radius behind the recoil spring tunnel is the bed. That part is also a "bed", but it and the flat area behind it are the make up the impact surface that halts the movement of the barrel asit lins down. Confusin'...ain't it? If somebody has a Kuhnhausen manual handy, we can probably clear it up...and it may take
a blueprint. Everybody has their own names for certain parts. The disconnector rail in the center of the slide is also known as the cocking rail, and the feeding rail. It's actually all three. The disconnector rides on it.
It cocks the hammer on the rear and strips a round from the magazine on the front. So, what do we call it? I believe the technical mane is the
cocking rail...but either description will tell us what it is.

On your disconnector photo,
A...Tip
B...main body
C...ramp
D...paddle (Ken Hallock calls the top part of the paddle the ears)

The straight part above the square hole I call simply, the stem.

Later on!

Tuner

1911Tuner
December 28, 2003, 07:26 PM
Romulus, you will write 100 times:

"I will not ask questions that the teacher can't answer.":D

Ask questions, lad! How else are ya gonna get answers?

romulus
December 28, 2003, 07:30 PM
Much obliged!

Jim K
December 30, 2003, 11:17 PM
FWIW, I don't think anyone, including JMB, ever dreamed up any "official" names for the parts of the parts. Kuhnhausen, BTW, does not use those names, although he gives dimensions and says where to polish.

I think folks just use whatever terms they think will convey the idea without reference to the terms used by others for the same item. And, of course, using a name like "paddle" conveys the idea of expertise more than saying "the flat part of the disconnector that contacts the trigger bow".

Jim

1911Tuner
January 1, 2004, 08:00 AM
And, of course, using a name like "paddle" conveys the idea of expertise more than saying "the flat part of the disconnector that contacts the trigger bow".

:cool: Actually, I'm prone to name a part by what it looks like
to me. The bottom of the disconnector looks like a paddle.
I do this because of the number of reassembly walk-throughs
that I do over the phone....and you'd be surprised at how
many times I have to just say..."The flat part that contacts the
trigger bow". :D Siometimes it's simply..."The Shiny part goes forward."
Well...it's shiny after prepping it, anyway.

As for what Colt or Springfield calls it...I'm clueless. They probably
just name it the disconnector and don't figure on anybody other
than gunsmiths ever needing to know what that particular area is
called.

These threads are gettin' to be fun. Carry on, lads!

Tuner

Archer
January 5, 2004, 06:09 PM
If you can find a copy of the original patent for the lockwork, you will note that there are few specific names for the parts features (exception- top part of the disconnector is called the camming surface), but rather, there are verbal descriptions of the mechanism in excruciating detail... most of the features require a sentence or three to describe and the descriptions use multi-view drawings to get the ideas across.

Interestingly, the part is referred to in the patent as a disconnect, not disconnector.

1911Tuner
January 5, 2004, 07:26 PM
Archer said:

Interestingly, the part is referred to in the patent as a disconnect, not disconnector.
Yep...but since I've been flamed for callin' it that, I just gave up. No sense
in wastin' bandwidth on it.

If I'm not mistaken, the "camming surface" of the disconnect is the angled
front and rear. I could be plum wrong...

Good point on the nomenclature. It IS correctly called a disconnect.

Cheers!

Tuner

Archer
January 5, 2004, 07:46 PM
Yep...but since I've been flamed for callin' it that, I just gave up. No sense

Well, heck Tuner, hard to argue with the actual documents of the inventor right ??

You have been correct all along. You might be right about the angled surface too, I would need to re-read the thing.

1911Tuner
January 5, 2004, 07:52 PM
Archer said:

Well, heck Tuner, hard to argue with the actual documents of the inventor right ??

LOL..You'd be surprised. Some folks would argue with Moses over the
Ten Commandments. I heard through a reliable source that there was a guy on a forum who told Gale McMillan that he didn't know squat about
rifle barrels...:rolleyes: Gale finally gave up tryin'.


Ah well...Onward.

Be well!

Tuner

yoky
July 4, 2004, 03:35 AM
I would like to say hallo to all participants here.
I am new to this forum and there is my question.
I would like to know something. When I observed disconnector I have found out that on the ramp (C area) is in the middle horizontal gap (channel) it is OK or not. When I press down disconnector by thumb movement is slightly interrupt when this gap is in contact with upper part of the middle leg of the sear spring. Pleas help me.

All the best
yoky

1911Tuner
July 4, 2004, 04:56 AM
Hi yoky. Welcome to The High Road.

It would probably help to give you a description of the function of the
disconnector.

When the pistol is ready to fire, the top of the disconnector is fully upward in the half-moon shaped cut in the slide, and the paddle is positioned between the trigger and sear. The disconnector bridges the gap between the trigger stirrup and the sear legs, and is now acting as a "connector".

When the trigger is pulled, the trigger pushes the disconnect rearward, and causes the sear to move out of contact with the hammer hooks, and allows the hammer to fall, firing the gun.

When the slide moves rearward in recoil, the flat area of the center slide rail pushes the top of the disconnector down, breaking the connection
between the trigger and sear. It is now in the "disconnected" position,
and allows the sear to reset and hold the hammer at full cock.

When the trigger is released, the center leaf of the sear spring pushes
against the angled rear area at the backside of the paddle, moving the disconnector upward into the half-moon shaped cut...and the disconnector again becomes a "connector", and the pistol is ready to fire.

When you push down on the top of the disconnector, the "click"...or
interruption that you feel and hear is the disconnector breaking contact with the sear, and should only felt and heard if the trigger is held rearward. This is normal. If you hear it when the trigger is forward, it
indicates that the spring is catching or snagging on a tool mark on the
ramped angle on the back of the disconnector. Lightly polishing the
bottom of the ramp and also the top of the center leaf is the cure for this. Be very careful not to change that angle, and remove only a bare minimum of material from the ramp...Just enough to make it smooth.

When you hand cycle the slide and release the trigger, you may hear another click. That one is the top of the disconnector striking the slide in
the half-moon shaped cut. If the "click" is sharp, it indicates that the disconnect is a little too long, or the cut is too shallow. This doesn't usually cause a problem unless the cut becomes impacted with dirt or fouling. The indication of a problem will be that the hammer won't fall when the trigger is pulled, because the disconnector can't move into the connected position. It may also cause the hammer to fall to half-cock under certain conditions.

The way to correct this is to deepen the cut slightly with a proper tool. DO NOT file or stone the top of the disconnector.

If the disconnector "click" is muffled...just a slight sound and not a definite
click...it's okay, and doesn't need attention.

Hope this helps.

Tuner

yoky
July 4, 2004, 03:13 PM
1911 Tuner
Thank you very much for your explanation. It is very interesting to me to understand interaction between 1911 parts. Now it is clear to me. I have changed all internal parts in my Kimber Custom II I have used parts from C&S heavy duty sear, commander hammer, disconnector, slide stop (Wilson BP) C&S thumb safety and putted on magwell Smith and Alexander, sear spring Wolf also I have changed extractor for Wilson BP and I had to tune up a little. I have spent 3 or 4 hours with safety very slowly not to take much material of. To day I have spent some time in shooting range and as a test I fired more then 300 rounds of 230 SB ammo. I am happy with my gun. MIM parts don’t bother me when the MIM are made in proper way the are very good. I wanted to have spear parts in my bag only for case that something happens with MIM parts. I don´t wait to long for spear parts.
Thank you
yoky

sanger
September 1, 2005, 12:07 AM
Tuner,

I have an odd problem.

The gun is a Dan Wesson Panther (1911 Pointman variant) that came with Chip McCormick MIM internals. I'm fond of the EB stuff and I've used the internals including the diconnector in three other Dan Wesson's with no problem.

The issue is that the new disconnector fails to reset. It will work with the old hammer, but the new EB hammer causes the disconnecter to hang up on the bottom of the sear. I can test this with the slide off the frame. If I depress the disconnector, it hangs on the reset. Every time. I've played with taking some spring out of the sear leg on the leaf spring, but lightening it up enough to get it to work (some of the time) seems like an unsafe thing to do.

I've tried all different combinations of components (I've got lots of CM spares and other 1911's) and no disconnector will work with the EB hammer, but the EB hammer works fine in another gun.

The issue revolves around the use of the EB hammer (and the same thing happened with a Doug Koenig hammer) in this gun causing the any disconnector to not reset.

The sear is an EB Perfection, though I've also tried a C&S ultralite to same effect.

Is there any modification that can be done to make the disconnector reset 100%?

Thanks for any help, and sorry about resurrecting an old thread.

1911Tuner
September 1, 2005, 05:23 AM
Hey sanger,

The most likely suspect is the center leaf on the sear spring not having enough tension to reset it, but it also sounds like it could be the sear legs. If you'll look closely at the bottoms...where the disconnect contacts the legs when it's in the disconnected position...you'll notice that they're asymmetrical and slightly rounded. The corner on the backside...where the disconnect spade slips past to reste may have a slight burr or sharp edge, or the curved portion may even be a little rough. Polish that curved bottom by "swiping" lightly against a stone, starting with the shorter toward the longer side, and then move to 600-grit paper on a flat surface to polish it. Swipe in such a way as to follow the radius. To finish it up, lightly burnish the corner on the paper.

There could also be a small burr on the top of the disconnector spade..the area of contact with the sear legs. Lightly break any sharp corner there.

When the disconnect hangs up, does the sear reset normally...or does the hitch also tie it up and not allow the hammer to cock? If the sear resets normally and the hammer will cock, it's likelt a burr on the corner of one of both of sear legs that's just catching it.

if light polishing doesn't solve the problem, you may have a spec or tolerance stack issue at work between the disconnect and sear leg relationship...too much length somewhere and getting things in a light bind.

hrb02
February 14, 2006, 01:32 AM
If you need a detailed explanation on detail stripping the pistol, it's not aproblem as I already have it written up on a notepad. All I have to do is
cut and paste it. The reason that I haven't is because it should be on a
separate thread...and nobody has asked.


Hey 1911TTuner, I would appreciate it very much if you would post the explanation on detail stripping the pistol.

Thanks!

Edit: Ok, sorry guys. After a little more investigation I found the stripping threads.

xring44
February 14, 2006, 06:13 AM
Being the owner of a 1911 style .45 ACP for a few years now, and having always been a wheel gun junkie, it has come to my attention after reading through this thread that I am somewhat dumber than a equal weight of rocks.
I learn more readily by observation than by reading, I actually don't know what to tell anyone that asks, "what you got there buddy" other than a .45,,which is somewhat confuseing when everone who can spell gun has at one time made something along the lines of a 1911 .45 ACP

Please continue with this educational thread, I'll just read along and maybe one of these days the little light will come on and I will be able to respond to the "WHAT HAVE YOU GOT THERE BUDDY" with a answer that is somewhat intelligent.

Thanks to 1911 Tuner for shareing his expertise with the unlearned of the world.

johndoe1027
April 23, 2008, 09:08 PM
Well, I've read these clinic threads (as well as many of the other stickied 1911 threads) until my eyes and head hurt. Seriously, I'm turning off the computer after I click post cuz my eyes hurt. This is the thread that made it all "click" in my brain. Now I'm starting to actually understand what actually goes on in there for the first time in my life.

I'm on my 7th 1911 and I'm just now figuring this out. :o

Profuse thanks to all who've contributed to this knowledge base.

BigJon
April 24, 2008, 09:59 AM
My old ADD brain tends to do better with visual aids, so here are a couple of little graphics I did up awhile back to show the bare-bones basics of how the disconnector works - what it does, and how - and common errors folks make when prepping disconnectors. The graphics are obviously not to-scale, and that is on purpose; some things are exagerated to show them better. They are also not intended to be an all-inclusive explanation of everything that goes on inside the fire-control system, out-of-spec problems, etc. Just the bare bones to give folks a basic understanding. Hopefully, along with Tuner's written explanations, it'll help folks who are just starting to try to understand the basics of what that weirdly shaped little piece of metal does.

Best,
Jon

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/BigJon3333/1911%20Misc/DisconnectFunction.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n169/BigJon3333/1911%20Misc/DisconnectorPrepMistakes2.jpg

Chopey82
September 17, 2010, 11:19 PM
I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to 1911's, but when I left the thread from Part 1 (about the hammer/sear) and came here, I had a good laugh at this because I'm clueless when it comes to disconnectors as well.. You're not alone Rom! You seem as interested in all of this as I am!!

rockscreation16
January 10, 2011, 08:05 PM
When you push down on the top of the disconnector, the "click"...or
interruption that you feel and hear is the disconnector breaking contact with the sear, and should only felt and heard if the trigger is held rearward. This is normal. If you hear it when the trigger is forward, it
indicates that the spring is catching or snagging on a tool mark on the
ramped angle on the back of the disconnector. Lightly polishing the
bottom of the ramp and also the top of the center leaf is the cure for this. Be very careful not to change that angle, and remove only a bare minimum of material from the ramp...Just enough to make it smooth.

When you hand cycle the slide and release the trigger, you may hear another click. That one is the top of the disconnector striking the slide in
the half-moon shaped cut. If the "click" is sharp, it indicates that the disconnect is a little too long, or the cut is too shallow. This doesn't usually cause a problem unless the cut becomes impacted with dirt or fouling. The indication of a problem will be that the hammer won't fall when the trigger is pulled, because the disconnector can't move into the connected position. It may also cause the hammer to fall to half-cock under certain conditions.



Would this click that you refer to translate to a click or extra movement that I feel in my trigger before the sear breaks but after the pre travel is taken up? I have an RIA m1911-a1 CS. For the most part this gun has given me no issues and functionally works perfectly, but this little click that I feel before the break when slow squeezing the trigger drives me crazy. I was given the idea on another thread that it was the disconnect slot on the top of the frame and that I needed to polish it with emery cloth on a small screwdriver. What are your thoughts on that? Below is my RIA. Stock except for a new STI trigger, RAASCO custom grips and stainless grip screws/bushings.

http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv326/rockscreation16/RIA%201911/RIA1911.jpg


below is my posting in some more detail on another forum.

Hello All!,
I'm new to this forum, and I've already had the opportunity to gain a wealth of knowledge from the forums. Thanks to all of you who post here!

I've recently acquired an m1911-a1 CS from Rock Island Armory. I've had nothing but good experiences with it so far. I'm probably at around 300 rounds or so through it now with not a single loading or firing issue. The only thing that is bothering me is the trigger pull. The trigger breaks half way consistantly, but there is occasionally a click or extra movement prior to the sear breaking from the hammer but after the pre travel is taken up. I've taken the gun down numerous times to look for any tell tale signs of rubbing between any of the firing components and can't seem to find where the issue is coming from. With the gun completely disassembled except for the trigger, mag release, hammer, sear, and disconnect i've tried tracing the origins of the click or extra movement with no progress in the right direction. I tried polishing the contact point between the trigger bow and disconnect as well as the surface where the disconnect lies inside the sear to no avail. At this point i'm relatively stuck as I don't want to even come close to the contact point between the sear and hammer even though it doesn't seem thats the portion that is moving. The extra movement is hard to feel unless you are slow squeezing the trigger with very slight pressure to the break. Sometimes you feel a slight click or maybe even a couple of them that move the trigger an extra couple of millimeters back before the break. I've considered replacing the sear, disconnect, and hammer, but I seriously doubt that despite their claims that there is such thing as a true drop in part or trigger pull kit. This 1911 is working perfectly otherwise, but i'm looking for a crisp trigger break as I've felt with many other 1911s that i've experienced. Is this something I can ask of this RIA? If so, what's the best way to proceed? Is there such thing as a trigger pull kit that will work out of the box on my RIA? I want to transform this baby into a gun I feel confident and comfortable enough with to carry daily, and I'm not there right now. Would you all recommend upgrading or can I reasonably accomplish this with some upgrades and help?

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