Black Powder Revolver/Pistol


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vsorrentino
January 1, 2011, 12:05 PM
Just got a Black Powder Pistol/Revolver and had some fun at the range.

What an experience..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yeeleq456g YouTube - Black Powder Pistol/Revolver by FirearmPop

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junkman_01
January 1, 2011, 01:54 PM
Firearmpop,

All I can say is WOW! So many foibles and safety violations, it's amazing you didn't have an accident. You had better hang around here a bit and learn *** you are doing! BTW, you can not overload and blow up a C&B revolver when using loose black powder.

cane
January 1, 2011, 02:38 PM
PLEASE, remove that video before someone follows your example and ends up dead or seriously injured!

PRM
January 1, 2011, 03:48 PM
Wow ~ muzzle toward chest while seating the balls. Why would you post this on the internet? I see, its not capped ~ but where did muzzle consciousness go to on this outing.

Shoot The Moon
January 1, 2011, 04:19 PM
Glad you enjoyed shooting, but as per the comments above please rethink your safety/loading procedure. You are breaking several of the 'commandments' - for instance:

Never point the muzzle at something you are not prepared to destroy or kill
(there's a guy on here who just perforated his ankle with his Glock by not observing this..)
Treat all firearms as loaded at all times
(Glock guy would have sworn his pistol was clear before he 'dry' fired it into his ankle)

Don't be put off cap and ball (or us here!) but please, for your own safety...

rdstrain49
January 1, 2011, 04:41 PM
Self removal from the gene pool imminent.

arcticap
January 1, 2011, 05:15 PM
It has been suggested to use a cheater bar on the short lever pistols to aid with loading.

See Hellgate's post #3:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=548411&highlight=cheater

Another tip is to remove the cylinder and load using a loading press like in McGunner's post #21:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=522633&highlight=cheater

Or use a portable loading stand that will hold the pistol vertical and in a safe direction while loading using the cheater bar. They're available from Dixie or other outfits, or make one yourself.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7768&osCsid=7915499ebd678f9945d33fd30b28a52f

Beside that you did a good job keeping the video interesting.
I'm sure that a lot of folks have similar trouble loading the short barreled guns.

pohill
January 1, 2011, 05:19 PM
14 minutes and 11 seconds long. I made it to 10 minutes 3 seconds and I had to shut it down (he was loading with the barrel into his chest). I could feel brain cells melting and I got worried.

average_shooter
January 1, 2011, 05:37 PM
Looks like "constructive" criticism has gone the way of the dinosaur with some folks. We should be all about educating people here, not putting them down. Let's keep things High Road.

vsorrentino is self-admittedly brand-spanking-new to black powder from the sounds of it.

Kudos for the admission and for trying something new. Now you're aware of some safety issues, you can learn and move forward.

I'm not sure how much reading or instruction you've gotten regarding BP, but there are some things I think you could use to make life more enjoyable and cheaper in the long run. For now I'll say stick around, do a bunch of reading, and learn some of the tricks the long-time BP shooters use. (For example, I can't see myself paying $10 for a package of lubed wads, I've heard of people using Crisco shortening over the ball instead, and I use a Crisco/Beeswax homemade lube for my BP cartridge bullets personally.)

pohill
January 1, 2011, 05:41 PM
It's hard to educate a dead man. If you don't know how to do something, especially something dangerous, ask before you do it.
That's as constructive as I can get.

arcticap
January 1, 2011, 07:17 PM
He was wearing a glove on his shooting hand in anticipation of possibly getting burned which has happened to folks here before. That was a nice touch that required forethought, as was wearing the recommended hearing and eye protection which many don't always do either.
Just because he loaded the gun with it pointed at his chest doesn't mean that many other folks don't lean with their head over the barrel when they load. I have no doubt that some folks do it that way.
The powder in a partially loaded cap and ball chamber still requires an ignition source to go off.
That missing element made it so that no one is a dead man, at least not unless we're all walking, talking dead men who are still discussing black powder. :)

junkman_01
January 1, 2011, 07:29 PM
But we hopefully don't make videos on Youtube for the whole world to copy unsafe practices and procedures.

pohill
January 1, 2011, 07:33 PM
If I saw a young kid handling a gun like that, admittedly not knowing what he was doing, it'd be along time before he touched a gun again.
Loading a gun with the barrel pressed against your chest? No excuse, cap or no cap. A glove in anticipation of getting burned? The fact that he might get burned should have been a tip-off for him to seek instructions.
You can be as PC as you want, and point to all that he did correctly, but at some point, if we don't police our own, they will do it for us.

TnRebel
January 1, 2011, 08:04 PM
Hey someone ( any of the naysayers ) please explain to this old hillbilly why it was so bad to load a black powder pistol with the barrel pointing at the chest or shoulder aria ?

There was no caps on the chambers , and if there was a spark left in the chambers it would ignite when the powder was inserted . JMHO.

Shoot The Moon
January 1, 2011, 08:28 PM
For me, it's more about avoiding bad practice than the technicalities of whether the gun could go off. By having these golden rules, we manage the risks of working with firearms. I'll try to elaborate....

Muzzle control is one of the key safety factors in all shooting - the easiest way to avoid an accident is to never point the gun at something that you don't want to shoot. Now I know, we cannot 100% comply - ie putting the gun into a car, inspecting the bore, etc - but if we do all that can be reasonably done to avoid pointing the muzzle of a firearm at ourselves or others, it minimises the risk immensely. As a proof point, I would point to the poor guy here on THR that shot himself in the ankle recently - the accident would never have happened if he had observed this rule. Also, he believed 100% that the chamber of his pistol was clear - yet when he dry fired, he found he was wrong.

I hope this isn't seen as being picky or being over-zealous. I'm genuninely pleased that vsorrentino enjoys his cap and ball revo - we all know how great they are to shoot - but basic stuff like this needs pointing out, even moreso when the possibility of these errors being copied and perpetuated by other inexperienced shooters exists.

Black Toe Knives
January 1, 2011, 09:27 PM
Pointing the gun toward the chest, that is not bad as putting a live cap under the hammer, the second load. That is true disaster waiting to happen and it will get someone hurt.

arcticap
January 1, 2011, 10:22 PM
How the gun was loaded was not an example of an ideal loading practice. However it was not unlawful.
It's been mentioned time and again how an uncapped muzzle loader is considered by law to be unloaded.
Such uncapped muzzle loaders are legal to transport in cars and inside of soft cases and such going to and from hunting areas and in public.
And while they are being transported they are being pointed at things, you or I or our family members or at passing cars or even at people who are at the local gun club.
I would be shocked if someone told a person who transported a gun in such condition to their shooting range that they had made some kind a of gross mistake.
These legally transported uncapped guns are in the same firing condition as the revolver that was being pointed at the poster's chest. Yet no one ever complains that the person transporting such a gun is a dead man or is a horrible accident waiting to happen.
I think that many of us have transported uncapped hunting guns inside gun cases that very same way without anyone else knowing that what was being pointed in their direction was an uncapped but otherwise loaded muzzle loader. And I might add, loaded with much more powder.
Sure, the loading procedure in the video needs to be improved, but the loading mistake also need to be kept in perspective.
Perhaps another video using an improved loading procedure or a warning could be inserted into the video so that folks are made aware that there are better loading methods that don't require as much of a struggle and display better muzzle control.
But how does that teach folks that transport guns in the exact same condition inside of their car or when walking around with them inside of a case going to the range or woods to shoot them off?
None of us will ever be sure of what's inside of another person's gun case, and I'm sure that we have all had gun cases pointed at us at some point in our lives, or have pointed our own cases at others.
I don't spend time worrying about it because by law, the gun is considered to be unloaded and not able to fire.
So let's not cast stones or lose perspective over it. :)

pohill
January 1, 2011, 11:17 PM
Let's see - he has no idea how much Pryodex to use or how much is in the pellets (does anyone know?)
He loads the gun with the barrel into his chest.
He does not remove the saved ring of lead.
He caps the gun with the muzzle pointing into the table.
At one point his cupped hand is in front of the loaded cylinder.
Did you catch the time the hammer slipped from his thumb onto a loaded and capped cylinder?
This guy should be the Poster Boy for how not to load a BP revolver.
I'm sure he's a great guy but he should not be instructing anyone in this sport. He treats the gun like a toy.
But, it's all legal.

average_shooter
January 1, 2011, 11:34 PM
Let's see - he has no idea how much Pryodex to use or how much is in the pellets (does anyone know?)

Package is marked as being for use in revolvers. And he reads the label in the video. It's the right stuff for his use.

He loads the gun with the barrel into his chest.

Already addressed by others.

He does not remove the [shaved] ring of lead.

Forgive me, but how critical is that if the rings just slough off the cylinder face when firing anyway?

He caps the gun with the muzzle pointing into the table.

Would you rather he capped it pointing at himself? How is the table and the ground to be considered not a safe direction for loading? I point my SAA at the ground or a table all the time when loading it, can't point it at the sky and load it.

At one point his cupped hand is in front of the loaded cylinder.

A safety concern that can be corrected through education.

Did you catch the time the hammer slipped from his thumb onto a loaded and capped cylinder?

Pointed downrange, not much of a concern there. Hammer slipping is bound to occur at some point with a revolver. He had the pistol pointed downrange when loaded.

pohill;
The bottom line here is that this forum is not boot camp, whether you're a drill instructor in real life or not, we shouldn't be here trying to teach by cutting each other down, which is what your method is coming across as. We can address faults respectfully and bring people's awareness up, not simply tell them to go pound sand and that they shouldn't be participating in the sport.

mykeal
January 2, 2011, 01:18 AM
How the gun was loaded was not an example of an ideal loading practice. However it was not unlawful.
Nobody said it was.
while they are being transported they are being pointed at things...
These legally transported uncapped guns are in the same firing condition as the revolver that was being pointed at the poster's chest. Yet no one ever complains that the person transporting such a gun is a dead man or is a horrible accident waiting to happen.
There's a world of difference between intentionally pointing a gun at someone, even yourself, and the direction a barrel is pointing while the gun is inside a case or a holster and not being handled. The issue is called muzzle control, that is, being incomplete control of your gun while you are handling it. If you cannot control the muzzle when you believe (ie, 'know') it's unloaded, you will not control it when its loaded, because you do not have the discipline necessary to do so. You're sloppy, sorry, but there's no other way to put it. Simply not in control, period. And being intentionally undisciplined with a firearm is simply unjustifiable. Your argument, that the muzzle is always pointed at something, so therefore it's ok to intentionally point it at a live human being because you think maybe it's unloaded, is rationally vacant. You're unsafe, that's all there is to it.

pohill
January 2, 2011, 02:05 AM
The bottom line here is that this forum is not boot camp, whether you're a drill instructor in real life or not, we shouldn't be here trying to teach by cutting each other down, which is what your method is coming across as.

You can defend this guy as much and as long as you want, you can imitate his techniques - that's your right. But, please, do not shoot at any range that I, or my family and friends, are on. If it takes a drill sergeant to make a range safe, so be it. Wise up.

arcticap
January 2, 2011, 03:17 AM
If you cannot control the muzzle when you believe (ie, 'know') it's unloaded, you will not control it when its loaded, because you do not have the discipline necessary to do so.

You who? I didn't make the video and I wasn't in the video.

You're sloppy, sorry, but there's no other way to put it.

You who? I didn't make the video and I wasn't in the video.

And being intentionally undisciplined with a firearm is simply unjustifiable. Your argument, that the muzzle is always pointed at something, so therefore it's ok to intentionally point it at a live human being because you think maybe it's unloaded, is rationally vacant.

When an uncapped muzzle loader is in it's case, I not only think that it's unloaded, I know that it's unloaded and being transported in total accordance with the law.
It seems that you have a gripe about the law regarding what does and does not constitute a loaded muzzle loader. You should take it up with the law makers rather than resort to low road personal attacks with those that believe in and uphold the law as it is written. By attacking the messenger rather than the message, it shows that your argument truly is irrational. My argument is based on the rationality of clearly established law.


You're unsafe, that's all there is to it.

You who is unsafe? I didn't make the video and I wasn't in the video.

I simply chose to defend the rights of a gun owner who acted within the law.
That's the mission of this forum and the high road that I chose to follow.
Some folks seem to forget that the OP's 2nd Amendment right to learn to shoot his cap & ball revolver has relatively greater importance then their complaints. And that applies to him making and posting a video about it too. If someone doesn't agree that an uncapped muzzle loader is considered to be unloaded under the law, then that's their problem.
If folks want to irritate others by flooding their local range with black powder smoke or by causing someone else who is shooting there to have an asthma attack than that's their right and I would defend it. People brag about doing that all of the time.
I don't tell other people what to do.
We all have to choose whether to defend a person's 2nd Amendment right in any given situation or not. I just happen to be more of a staunch 2A supporter than some others here happen to be.
That's all.
Molon labe! :)

frontloader
January 2, 2011, 08:13 AM
I would love to video some of you "PROS" shooting.

Mp7
January 2, 2011, 08:24 AM
Donīt appreciate the tonality of comments and the length of them.

OP is lucky to to not have had an accident.
Hopefully this Sh..storm here teaches him.

Whenever you do something potentially dangerous
read up on it on the web. Thatīs what itīs for.
A lot of theoretical wisdom can be had here.

At least u will know u r doin something not right, ans stop doin it.


02$.

mykeal
January 2, 2011, 08:50 AM
You who? I didn't make the video and I wasn't in the video.

All those of you who feel that controlling the muzzle of a gun isn't necessary, whether you 'know' it's loaded or not. If that describes you, then you are who I'm talking to, regardless of your participation or lack of it in a public demonstration of unsafe gun handling.

It seems that you have a gripe about the law regarding what does and does not constitute a loaded muzzle loader.
That's not true and you know it. I've made no statement one way or another regarding the legal definition of a loaded muzzleloader. My entire thesis, since the beginning of this thread and in other threads containing displays of unsafe gun handling, is that failing to control the muzzle of a gun is unsafe and unacceptable, and that intentionally pointing a gun at yourself or anyone else, whether it's loaded or not, is even worse behavior.

You fail to recognize that my point contains no caveat for an unloaded gun. It has always been my point that lack of muzzle control discipline, including intentional acts, is unsafe whether the gun is loaded or not, so your rant regarding the legal definition of loaded, and the attempt to deflect the discussion into a RKBA argument, is irrelevant to my case and does not justify the unsafe behavior.

Once again, since you don't seem to understand the point: Never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot. Notice that this statement refers to an act of volition, and that it contains no caveat for an unloaded gun. That's because it refers to discipline - you either have it or you don't. If you don't, you are much more likely to make the mistake of pointing a loaded gun at someone (intentionally or unintentionally), and that's simply unacceptable. We're all human, and we all make mistakes. I cannot, and would never, claim that I've never made the mistake of pointing a loaded gun at someone. I do claim that I try very hard to treat every gun as if it was loaded all the time, and to never point it at something I don't want to shoot. That discipline (not the action) becomes automatic, and makes the inevitable mistakes much less frequent.

So, kindly address the real point of my argument, and cease attempting to put words in my mouth or infer meanings that are not stated.

junkman_01
January 2, 2011, 08:51 AM
articap,

You are totally wrong about this issue. The issue here is not about the LAW, but about etiquette! This fellow is a newbie to black powder pistols and needs to be shown (and told) the proper way to do things. Too many beginners are going to see that video and assume that his procedures are OK. They are NOT acceptable, even if lawful. BTW no one here said he was breaking the law. You brought that issue to the table since you had no other argument to put forth.

ak-kev
January 2, 2011, 08:53 AM
Thank goodness there are so many professionals here to assist all of us uneducated peasants. Makes me feel so much safer. Kinda like when you walk into a wal-mart and see the security guard.

junkman_01
January 2, 2011, 08:58 AM
Somebody has to do it. :cool:

PRM
January 2, 2011, 09:29 AM
please explain to this old hillbilly why it was so bad to load a black powder pistol with the barrel pointing at the chest or shoulder aria ?

Well, ...never mind, you seem to have it figured out. Happy shooting.


We all have to choose whether to defend a person's 2nd Amendment right in any given situation or not.

I don't see anyone wanting to take away the OPs 2nd Amendment Rights. In fact I would say 99.9% of THR members would line up to protect that issue. The bottom line is, the video shows some unsafe practices. Every certifying organization for firearms instructors that I have ever been associated with, stress safety as a foremost consideration. And number one is always muzzle consciousness.

I sincerely hope the OP stays on the forum and refines his skills. For those who don't think the lack of muzzle control is an issue ~ try it at a sanctioned shoot and see how long you stay on the firing line.

pohill
January 2, 2011, 12:21 PM
Notice how he has to hand turn the cylinder a few times? Could that be the lead ring jamming the works? I don't think he fired enough for fouling to be a problem.
Notice how he holds the gun while capping and pointing into the table...no control of his firearm there if it goes off.
And look at 11.47 of the video - at first I thought it looked like a chainfire, but I can't be sure. I counted the number of shots and it does seem like all six went off, but there were a few misfires. Then again, he was using Pryodex, which isn't as sensitive as black powder (I've never heard of Pryodex chainfiring). There just seems to be some extra flame at that point.

skipjack
January 2, 2011, 12:48 PM
I think it is possible to offer constructive criticism without being
sarcastic.

To Firearms Pop,

I would suggest getting a loading stand as eluded to above. It will
make loading the gun easier, and safer. Make sure to not put any
part of your body over the muzzle. A piece of pipe that fits over
the end of the lever will help seating the ball.
Another option would be be a cylinder loading tool
to load the cylinder off the frame of the pistol.

After capping, do not allow any part of your body to go in front of
the cylinder. Doing so puts you at risk of bodily harm. When capping,
lay the pistol on it's side, pointing down range, and advance the
cylinder by moving it from behind the cylinder face.

If you are loading all six chambers, use the safety notch to rest the
hammer. Personally, I load 5, and rest the hammer on the empty
chamber. If you get a cap that fails to go off, keep your hands
from in front of the cylinder as you advance to the next chamber.

Try using loose powder, and start with 20 grains. I find it to be a
load that gives a pleasant amount of recoil and smoke, and is not
too taxing on the gun or shooter.

Personally, I have tried the felt wads and have stopped using them.
I now use bore butter over each chamber, applied before capping.
It is cheaper than felt wads, and helps keep the bore wet, making for
a greater number of shots between cleanings.

As you get more comfortable, you will start to find handling
of the pistol to get easier. There is a learning curve to any
new activity.

I hope some of what I wrote helps you to safely enjoy your new gun.

Yougot5seconds_762
January 2, 2011, 01:07 PM
How much did you pick this one up for?

wittzo
January 2, 2011, 04:04 PM
He pointed it at himself, that's his business. If he's pointing it at me or someone else, that's when he needs to be yelled at.

Every time I shoot a muzzleloading rifle, I violate the safety rules. I don't want to destroy my fingers or thumb, but I have to use them to put the powder in and put the patch and ball on the crown to thumb start it; I'm pointing the barrel at myself, because my thumb is part of me. I'm also pointing a loaded gun in the air, I won't know where that bullet lands if it went off, so I'm violating another rule: Make sure of your target. Those are necessary steps during the loading process, but they're violations of the rules of safety. Don't you point the muzzle toward your eye when you use a borelight to check the bore on a used muzzleloader? You don't even know if it's loaded or not.

With a barrel and load lever that short, I would end up pointing at myself a lot during the loading process; I would have to in order to get leverage without a cheater. It's not going to go off unless I have a lit fuse in the flashhole or I'm loading it over an open fire. Until caps are on it, it's as inert as a loaded (uncapped) cylinder in my pouch.

Everyone has made careless mistakes while learning to shoot out of their own ignorance. A recent birthday boy once said, "Don't judge lest you be judged yourself."

Wasn't it a well-respected member who decided to load their Ruger with as much powder they could for the heck of it and ended up shooting full auto? They didn't observe proper safety during loading, they knew better than to just dump powder in, but he did it anyway. They admitted what they did was foolhardy and they knew it.

When is a risk acceptable or not? If no risks are acceptable, we might as well hang our guns on the wall and just look at them.

Cosmoline
January 2, 2011, 04:29 PM
Once again, since you don't seem to understand the point: Never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot.

This rule is not an absolute.
--In loading a black powder muzzleloader you MUST point the barrel at your hands and often at your head.

--In performing a complete inspection of any firearm, you confirm it is unloaded yourself and in the process you will be looking down the barrel from the muzzle end to inspect the quality of the crown. This cannot be done from the receiver end.

--In cleaning the firearm you will very frequently find yourself facing the barrel.

--In carrying you will inevitably be pointing a *LOADED* firearm at parts of yourself or others that you do not wish to destroy.

These are just a few examples of practices which are NOT unsafe, but which would be contrary to the rules if the rules were read as absolute dogma.

The ranges I shoot at have strict rules forbidding any muzzle from pointing across the length of the shooting line or back at the parking area, but I do not know if the OP's ranges have such rules. Presumably not.

Obviously the OP needs a loading stand, but even then he'll still be pointing the revolver at his hands and forearms--and possibly head. The difference is we're more accustomed to the practice of using a loading stand than having the barrel wedged against the torso.

Cooper's rules were not specifically directed at smoke poles, nor were they intended to be absolute dogma. Otherwise one would never be able to transport a firearm or inspect a crown. Let alone load a muzzle-loader.

Obviously the OP is doing some things he ought not to do, but it's important to apply common sense to these problems rather than ranting in quasi-religious fashion about the sanctity of certain absolute rules.

junkman_01
January 2, 2011, 04:31 PM
wittzo

Do you put foolish unsafe acts on Youtube for all to see and possibly imitate?

junkman_01
January 2, 2011, 04:34 PM
I wonder what some of you would make of me blowing down the barrel of a shot muzzleloader!


If it gives you pleasure.....

Cosmoline
January 2, 2011, 04:41 PM
It surely beats dropping a fresh load of 2F onto still-burning embers. There are of course other ways of extinguishing the embers, and many ranges have started banning the traditional blowing practice. I myself am moving away from it because it might give some newbie with a smokeless firearm the wrong ideas. But it is traditional, and far from being unsafe it ensures safety.

I have to say the nasty, sarcastic comments of many on this thread, coupled with a near total failure by those same posters to be constructive or specific about what the OP did wrong reflect very poorly on the forum.

This one is particularly vile:

Self removal from the gene pool imminent.

And this isn't helpful in the least

I could feel brain cells melting and I got worried. ... That's as constructive as I can get.

If that's as constructive as you can get, then do not post on such threads. All your attacks do is drive new shooters away from this forum and away from useful advice such as getting a loading stand.

He caps the gun with the muzzle pointing into the table.

I've loaded tens of thousands of smokeless revolver rounds with the barrel canted towards the ground in front and I'm sure at times towards the far end of the firing line table. If you point the barrel upwards and try to reload, gravity comes into play. On the odd chance a round goes off when you're pointed at the table, you have put a hole or gouge in the table. It's not a living thing, and the barrel was still pointed down range.

The problem here was that he was pointing straight down, when he should have been keeping the muzzle downrange. Your criticism was not specific enough to be useful.

ak-kev
January 2, 2011, 04:55 PM
I agree with you Cosmoline, but it seems to only be in the black powder forum. The other forums here on THR seems to have very helpful, kind and courteous members. It must have something to do with Black Magic.

pohill
January 2, 2011, 05:29 PM
I could feel brain cells melting and I got worried. ... That's as constructive as I can get.
That was a joke. A joke. Haha.

He caps the gun with the muzzle pointing into the table.
Did you happen to see how he was holding the gun when he capped it? Go back and look, then report back with your constructive comments.

All your attacks do is drive new shooters away from this forum and away from useful advice such as getting a loading stand.
He should have come here first. We even have stickies to help newbies. If you don't know, then ask.
If that's as constructive as you can get, then do not post on such threads
Forum Police? Do not tell me what to post or not post. That's why we have moderators. They can ban me any time.

Other than my first comment, A JOKE, how was I rude to the OP?

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
January 2, 2011, 05:44 PM
The person who wanted to see a "Pro" loading here it is. We will make a
video on a revolver as soon as it warms up here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxmCqUQJnSU

Cosmoline
January 2, 2011, 05:55 PM
Do not tell me what to post or not post.

A saying about taking it and dishing it out springs to mind.

Meanwhile, the OP has been run off from this area probably for good. I don't see that result making anyone safer.

Were there some safety concerns in that video? Absolutely. But the way to address them is not remarks about how your brain cells are melting and how the poster is a "dead man." The safety violations were nowhere near as bad as many YT videos I've seen. And they were pretty easy to remedy. In most cases the violations looked worse than they were. Pointing the uncapped revolver at the chest is not good practice but the remedy is a loading stand and education on accepted methods, not derisive attacks. The former creates a safer shooter who will amend his videos and advise his audience of his errors. The latter just runs the man off, none the wiser, and so alienated from the black powder community that he's unlikely to seek any advice from such people in the future.

junkman_01
January 2, 2011, 06:01 PM
Phil,

Your wife is certainly a pro. Good video.
Does she shoot revolvers in competition, or only single shots?

mykeal
January 2, 2011, 06:16 PM
Cosmoline, ak-kev and wittzo:

Let's put aside the side comments and just deal with the basics. Three simple yes or no questions:

Is it your position that the loading procedure shown in the video (specifically the part in which the individual loading the revolver places muzzle in his own midsection) in the first post of this thread is a safe procedure?

Would you agree that a person who would intentionally place a revolver muzzle in his own midsection has poor muzzle control discipline?

Do you agree that someone who shows a casual disregard for muzzle control when the gun is believed to be unloaded has poor discipline and will thus have a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun?

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
January 2, 2011, 06:19 PM
Well, (oh yeah I'm still around and I still read something on here now and then) I have not watched the video and have absolutely no interest in doing so. However, if some of you are so concerned about his safety then why don't you pm him and explain things to him instead of running him down?..I have no concern or responsibility as to whether he blow's a hole through his chest or not. Not my family and none of my business..Oh, by the way. Yes, I still carry all chambers fully loaded and ready to go just as I have for well over 40 years and I still have not had a '58, or a '47, or a '49, or a .44 carbine, or a .22 Mini Mag go off unless I wanted it to. Can't say anything about the 1st Model because I only shot it 6 times back when I first got it and have not loaded it since. But if I did load it then it would be all the way around and ready to go. Wearing a fully loaded '58 right now with the rawhide safety loop over the hammer and to hell with a safety notch built into the cylinder....

Cosmoline
January 2, 2011, 06:28 PM
Is it your position that the loading procedure shown in the video (specifically the part in which the individual loading the revolver places muzzle in his own midsection) in the first post of this thread is a safe procedure?

Of course it is not a safe or accepted procedure to load that way!

Would you agree that a person who would intentionally place a revolver muzzle in his own midsection has poor muzzle control discipline?

I'd say it has much more to do with lack of understanding of the norms and accepted practices of loading C&B revolvers. As I was trying to point out earlier, this is not a matter of just screaming Cooper's rules at the man. The accepted BP loading practice places body parts over the muzzle. The new BP shooter needs to understand the way things are done in this little subculture of gun nuts. That is not accomplished by calling him names or attacking him.

Do you agree that someone who shows a casual disregard for muzzle control when the gun is believed to be unloaded has poor discipline and will thus have a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun?

I have no idea. But I VERY MUCH doubt he's loading smokeless firearms while resting the barrel against his chest. I suspect he's simply misunderstood the way things are done with black powder firearms. And that's an easy mistake to make. He was probably told that the weapon isn't really loaded until the cap is on, so he doesn't treat it as loaded. Black powder arms occupy an unusual position in the world of firearm safety, and the right way isn't always obvious.

junkman_01
January 2, 2011, 06:40 PM
However, if some of you are so concerned about his safety then why don't you pm him and explain things to him instead of running him down?..I have no concern or responsibility as to whether he blows a hole through his chest or not. Not my family and none of my business..

GOTC,

I emailed him yesterday through his website. No reply as of yet.

Heck of an attitude you've got there. It concerns all of us!

fogg64
January 2, 2011, 07:05 PM
After viewing these posts, I am amazed
When he seat the balls, how was it unsafe since in was an unloaded (uncapped) cylinder?
Are we expecting the cylinder to fire, causing the ball to be fire through the barrel and hit him in the chest?
If the cylinder was to fire and not be lined up with the barrel, would the results be any different with a loading stand?
When he capped the pistol it was pointed down range in keeping with most if not all range' rules, maybe it was elevated enough for some.

mykeal
January 2, 2011, 07:08 PM
Cosmoline:

Muzzle control is the issue. It's not caveated by whether the gun is loaded or unloaded, and it's not caveated by whether the ammunition is smokeless or black powder. Please answer yes or no.

And I asked you to set aside the side comments, please. I do not believe I 'screamed' at the OP or called him names. If you disagree, please cite the reference and I'll apologize.

Cosmoline
January 2, 2011, 09:36 PM
I told you I don't know enough about his ordinary shooting habits to know if he has " a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun" I think it's far more likely he was just ill informed as to black powder firearms.

But let's say you're correct and he has poor muzzle control in general. Wouldn't the proper response to this be education rather than condemnation?

I do claim that I try very hard to treat every gun as if it was loaded all the time, and to never point it at something I don't want to shoot.

I'm also curious to know how you load a muzzleloader while following this rule as strictly as you claim to. Because in my experience one needs to place ones hands over the bore to load the powder, patch and ball.

mykeal
January 3, 2011, 12:38 AM
You don't need to know anything about the OP's 'ordinary' shooting habits. He's demonstrating all you need to know, and you refuse to see it. It doesn't matter what he's been told or not been told about black powder firearms - when it comes to controlling the muzzle of your gun a black powder revolver is the same as a S&W Model 60.

Once again:
Muzzle control is the issue. It's not caveated by whether the gun is loaded or unloaded, and it's not caveated by whether the ammunition is smokeless or black powder.

So please answer yes or no:
Would you agree that a person who would intentionally place a revolver muzzle in his own midsection has poor muzzle control discipline?

Do you agree that someone who shows a casual disregard for muzzle control when the gun is believed to be unloaded has poor discipline and will thus have a tendency towards poor muzzle control with a loaded gun?

Is education the answer? Absolutely. I'm a Hunter Safety Education instructor who specializes in muzzleloading. I teach literally hundreds of students the proper way to handle firearms, including back powder revolvers, every year. We teach muzzle control at all times with all guns. And the course is a standard, nationwide course taught in all states. It appears there's a need for many people to get a refresher.

As for loading a long rifle, we both know that your hands must be near the muzzle to load powder, cap and ball, but they don't need to be directly in line with the bore centerline at any time. In the event of an AD while loading it's likely that your fingers would be burned or perhaps at the worst wounded. But by exercising control of the muzzle you can greatly reduce or even prevent damage. Hundreds of people accomplish safe loading of long muzzleloading rifles at the NMLRA events every year. If you really can't visualize how that's done I invite you to attend one.

Oh, and I also invite you to provide a citation to an instance when I condemned the OP. I notice you've not yet found the place where I screamed at him or called him names as you implied earlier, and I doubt you'll find an instance of condemnation either.

Cosmoline
January 3, 2011, 01:19 AM
I never said you insulted or attacked the OP, and I did not intend to imply that. I was directing my response more broadly. I do apologize if I gave that impression. You did not attack the OP, he was long gone from THR by the time you and I chimed in.

when it comes to controlling the muzzle of your gun a black powder revolver is the same as a S&W Model 60.

Not really. You don't put a smokeless revolver on a loading stand and hover over the barrel as you load it.

they don't need to be directly in line with the bore centerline at any time

If you can seat a tight fitting ball and patch into a firelock rifle while keeping your hand from passing over the bore axis, you are stronger than I am. Personally, I need to press pretty hard on the ball with the short starter. And I'm not the only one.

Are you prepared to call Don Klein unsafe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjZp-Q794yk

wittzo
January 3, 2011, 02:21 AM
Like I said, if a person is pointing it at himself, it's his business. If he points it at other people or me, I'll remind him he's being unsafe and rude and if he continues, I won't turn my back to him as I leave.

I'm sure the OP is a polite guy and will admit to his error and profusely apologize for his transgression if he sweeps me or others.

mykeal
January 3, 2011, 08:53 AM
You don't put a smokeless revolver on a loading stand and hover over the barrel as you load it.
I really don't understand that statement. Yes, I know that one of the ways to load a black powder revolver is to use a loading stand. I know that you don't use a loading stand with a cartridge revolver. But the part about 'hover over the barrel'...what makes that ok to do?

I maintain that lack of muzzle control is unacceptable. Doesn't matter who it is. It's unacceptable if I do it, it's acceptable if Don Klein does it, it's unacceptable if you do it. You, and others, keep trying to manufacture some situation where poor muzzle control is somehow acceptable for some reason (the gun is unloaded, or it's in a loading stand, or some guru is doing it, or it's just a video...), as if that action justifies having poor discipline in handling firearms. Well, it's not, ever, for any reason. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, or that we should cut off the hands of anyone who does it. I'm saying it's bad practice, we should be aware of it and we should take every opportunity to correct it. At the very least we need to stop trying to justify it or excuse it.

One last time: answer the last two questions, yes or no. That should suffice to explain my position.

SixxshootinSam
January 3, 2011, 12:28 PM
Mykeal since you are the self proclaimed expert on gun safetly why don't you indulge us with a video of you doing it the proper way. You keep talking about it so why not show everyone?
I feel bad for the poster, like someone said, he will probably never even come back to this place. I would not either if I was barraged with insults and 'jokes'.

PS Cosmoline, I load my rifle the exact way Don Klein does it, but apparently thats bad. mkay.

Cosmoline
January 3, 2011, 01:38 PM
I am actually quite curious. I'm not a small man or a weak one, but I'll be darned if I can seat ball and patch in a rifle without bearing down pretty hard on the thing. If you are off-axis you will just skid off your ball and smear the lead, ruining it. Maybe Mykeal is using a big hammer? Not sure I'd want to do it that way.

You, and others, keep trying to manufacture some situation where poor muzzle control is somehow acceptable for some reason (the gun is unloaded, or it's in a loading stand, or some guru is doing it, or it's just a video...), as if that action justifies having poor discipline in handling firearms.

You apparently have such a broad definition of "poor muzzle control" that everyone who loads black powder is guilty of this crime.

But the part about 'hover over the barrel'...what makes that ok to do?

You have to to load a muzzleloader. A partially loaded smokeless revolver pointing up towards shooters working on it is unsafe. But a muzzleloader must be pointed up as you load it. Otherwise the powder will fall out. The rules about "never pointing a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy" must be interpreted with common sense. That means you are permitted to place body parts over the bore of a ML'r while you're loading it. You have to. Custom dictates how this is done safely, but these customs do not apply to smokeless firearms. Different systems, different rules. I'm not sure why that's so tough to understand. But with instructors telling people they have to seat balls without putting their hands over the muzzle, it's no wonder there's so much confusion among newbies.

mykeal
January 3, 2011, 01:48 PM
SixshootinSam:

I do not have the equipment to make videos, so I cannot comply with your demand. Also, I don't believe I ever proclaimed I was an expert in gun safety. If that's not correct, please provide a citation and I'll apologize; otherwise, it's up to you to apologize to me for falsely claiming I did so.

If you, or anyone else, really needs instruction in how keep from unnecessarily endangering yourself while loading a long rifle, I suggest you contact the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association (NMLRA). They have regional representatives and charter clubs in every state and can provide training programs.

In the mean time, with respect to Mr. Klein's video, which some feel is a gold standard: I load the same way Mr. Klein does with three exceptions. He places his palm directly over the centerline of the muzzle three separate times, twice with the short starter and once with the ramrod. I do not do that. I hold the side of the short starter and use a small mallet to tap the top of the ball on the short starter. I hold the ramrod on the side with my fingers and palm and use the mallet on the end if necessary. This works with all my long rifles regardless of how tight the ball and patch are. For instance, I use a .535 ball with 0.018 dry lubed pillow ticking in a .54 GPR and can load even without swabbing the bore with that technique. However, I usually swab after each shot. It can be done.

However, that's not the point, and you keep ignoring it. Don Klein's use of his palm to drive the ball down with the short starter and ramrod is, in my opinion, avoidable, unnecessary and ultimately unsafe. However, in and of itself the fact that he loads that way does not excuse the intentional, clearly unsafe lack of muzzle control exhibited in the video in the first post in this thread. I invite you to provide yes or no answers to the three questions I posed above.

Cosmoline: I use a small brass head hammer, weighing 6 ozs. It works. Every time.

Wittzo: It's everyone's business if an individual fails to control the muzzle of his gun. You may not be given the opportunity to walk away backwards - you may be at the other end of the firing line or on the other side of a wall. The bullet will still reach you. Lack of muzzle control discipline is like drunk driving in that it affects everyone in the vicinity whether they know it or not.

Cosmoline
January 3, 2011, 01:55 PM
Don Klein's use of his palm to drive the ball down with the short starter and ramrod is, in my opinion, avoidable, unnecessary and ultimately unsafe.

Well that pretty much ends the matter. If you think that's unsafe, then every smokepole shooter I know is unsafe, and the answer to your questions is that not only is the shooter in the OP showing moor muzzle discipline, everyone else is too. It means every short starter made is unsafe, particularly those with a ball for pressing with the palm.

Black Toe Knives
January 3, 2011, 03:19 PM
All of the arm chair BP shooters have pointed the loading of the pistol is pointed at loaders chest. But in reality If you have actually have loaded a black powder gun. You body parts are always in direct path of the barrel or the cylinders with bullets and powder if you use lever on revolver, ram rod or a starter ball on muzzleloader.

The act of putting the hammer down to rest on a live cap and a loaded cylinder is much more dangerous than loading the gun in this video. It is the same as carrying a pistol with your finger on the trigger. This will be the real disaster because there are half cock position and safety notches.

pohill
January 3, 2011, 03:46 PM
The OP hasn't been on this forum, at least not signed in, since he posted the video. I went back to look at his other 5 posts and they all direct the reader to go to his Utube site and watch his videos. I watched a few of them. In each video, he is very safety conscious - I was being picky when I watched, looking for any small infractions. I really didn't see any. He seems like a nice guy trying to promote firearm videos. That's fine. I really think he was out of his element with the BP revolver, a fact that he even admitted to in the video (learn as we go, etc). I think alot of "modern" firearms shooters have that problem when trying BP for the first time, and some even think that BP guns are toys, which they are not.
He also seems like the kind of guy who could take a joke and probably give it right back to you. I don't think he was scared off at all, and if he was, then maybe he'll stick to modern firearms, which he appears to have a good knowledge of.
Remember, he posted that BP video. If he thought we were all going to pat him on the back and say Great Job, well, he was wrong.
There's no way around it - IN MY OPINION, it was unsafe and unwise the way he loaded and capped that revolver.
And for those posters that are offended, for the original OP, by jokes and comments, what can I say - it's a rough world. He could come back and defend himself, but he hasn't.

Chazz
January 3, 2011, 07:27 PM
Of course he is loading it wrong, even worse he reloaded after shooting it, and still pointing at his chest.... the gun is always hot, but much more after shooting it. Had something still be burning in the chamber his shoulder would of been blown off.

Then the caps not firing, the pellets etc... Hopefully the guy learned something from this forum.

ak-kev
January 3, 2011, 07:40 PM
Yea, he learned not to post anything else in this forum. So much for being the "high road"

junkman_01
January 3, 2011, 07:50 PM
He posted here trying to show us how it's done.....NOT! :banghead:

pohill
January 3, 2011, 08:11 PM
deleted

rdstrain49
January 3, 2011, 08:18 PM
Maybe it's time to move on.

Chazz
January 3, 2011, 08:29 PM
Yea, he learned not to post anything else in this forum. So much for being the "high road"

I meant maybe he WILL learn something from this forum lol.... and maybe some newbie will too after reading this thread.... I would imagine there's plenty of people who go out on their own trying BP never learning the ropes from experienced shooters.... some just learn the hard way.

Maybe he will come back and post? There's no reason for him to shy away lol... He's a lucky man!

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
January 4, 2011, 02:09 PM
Well, I will say this. I don't come on here much anymore, partly because it's the same old questions all of the time, and partly because I know I'm not well liked on here, and partly because people have spent a lot of time on here running me down because I go with all chambers loaded and the hammer resting on a live cap, and partly because several people on here that I could name but won't name spend a lot of their time talking out of both sides of their pie hole. In the first place I know that it take's what could be described as a 'sharp, rather hard and abrupt' blow to set off a # 10 or #11 percussion cap, at least for a Remington cap which is the only type of cap I have ever used and ever plan on using. Anyone who is climbing a steep hill or mountain or a tree, or perhaps riding an unruly horse, or anything of that nature and dosen't have enough sense to use a hammer throng (or strap in some cases if the holster come's so equipped) to secure the hammer and/or to keep the revolver from falling out of the holster dosen't belong within 40 feet of a black powder revolver. The same people who will jump on here and preach and sermonize against carrying the revolver with the hammer resting on a live cap are the very same people who will jump on here and preach and sermonize about how you can finger push or stick push on a live cap as hard as you please every day of the week and twice on Sunday and the cap will not go off. I surely wish they would pick out which side of the fence they want and get on that side and stay there. They cannot have it both ways in spite of what they jump on here and preach....I hope everybody even remotely connected with this site will read this post at least 15 times....No reply is needed. I have no intention of arguing with anyone about this or about what I know to be true....

JShirley
January 4, 2011, 06:03 PM
Good god.

C'mon, folks. We're better than this.

John

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