sobering news


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FRIZ
December 27, 2003, 08:56 PM
Dear Friends:
Here is a piece of sobering news. With an attitude like this we will not see
peace between Israel and the Muslim world anytime soon.
Regards,
FRIZ

The Jerusalem Post
Dec. 27, 2003

Iran rebuffs 'Zionist' help
by Herb Keinon

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid
=1072420674113

Iran refused Israeli help in dealing with its catastrophic earthquake,
saying the Islamic Republic would accept aid from all countries of the
world, except Israel.

Jahanbakhsh Khanjani, a spokesman for Iran's Interior Ministry, said, "THE
ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN ACCEPTS ALL KINDS OF HUMANITARIAN AID FROM ALL
COUNTRIES AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE ZIONIST
REGIME."

THE FOREIGN MINISTRY HAD ANNOUNCED THAT ISRAELI NON-GOVERNMENTAL
ORGANIZATIONS WERE "LOOKING INTO OFFERING THEIR HELP" TO VICTIMS OF THE
EARTHQUAKE IN SOUTHEASTERN IRAN.

The 6.7-magnitude earthquake struck about 5:30 a.m., local time, collapsing
buildings in the city of Bam in southeastern Iran, severing power lines and
shutting down water service. As of Saturday morning, the Iranian government
put the death toll at over 20,000.

Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom issued a statement following the earthquake,
saying, "The Israeli people and government send their condolences to the
Iranian people. The government and people of Israel feel the pain of this
human tragedy facing the Iranian people, and despite all the differences of
opinion, at these moments a mobilization of the entire international
community is needed to help the injured and the families of the victims."

Large-scale Israeli assistance following a massive earthquake in 1999 in
northwestern Turkey that killed over 15,000 people, and a huge earthquake in
western India in 2001 that killed some 20,000 people, helped strengthen ties
between Israel and those two countries.

In 1999 Israel airlifted to Turkey doctors and equipment for a field
hospital, as well an emergency rescue team comprising 250 persons,
sophisticated rescue equipment, and rescue dogs.

And in 2001, Israel dispatched a field hospital and some 150 people to India
to assist in rescue and medical efforts following the earthquake in Bhuj.
The help Israel provided in these cases is still mentioned often by Turkish
and Indian officials when discussing their ties with Israel...

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Delmar
December 27, 2003, 09:17 PM
I guess the statement from the Iranian government makes sense when you are teaching your kids that Jews are monkeys:rolleyes:
No wonder the middle east is in a mess:scrutiny:

Standing Wolf
December 27, 2003, 10:06 PM
I guess that'll show those Israelis, won't it?

HBK
December 28, 2003, 12:28 AM
Stupid, but not surprising. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face... :rolleyes:

Bruce H
December 28, 2003, 12:41 AM
Why don't we give Israel a fleet of B-52's to stage arclights with? Iran's interior ministry spokesman needs to stop breathing.

nico
December 28, 2003, 01:23 AM
It really makes me mad that the Iranian people are being made to suffer by the bigots that run their country:rolleyes:

4570Rick
December 28, 2003, 03:15 AM
[<Gump on>]

Stupid is as stupid does

[<Gump off>]

c_yeager
December 28, 2003, 03:29 AM
In Iran the bigots dont just RUN the country.

clubsoda22
December 28, 2003, 03:48 AM
Israel should take it like i would. Post a general notice that Iran can suck it. Have it voted on on the floor of the UN.

enfield
December 28, 2003, 11:38 AM
"Let them that don't want none have memories of not gettin' any!"

TheFederalistWeasel
December 28, 2003, 11:51 AM
Screw the Iranians!

Muslims are always crying about how God will smite the infidels…

Well, maybe God spoke when that earthquake slaughtered 40,000 followers of Islam.

Waitone
December 28, 2003, 12:24 PM
Sounds consistent to me.

Does it make sense? Nope! But it is consistent.

www.jihadwatch.org

Mark Tyson
December 28, 2003, 01:05 PM
Screw the Iranians!

Don't pass judgement on the whole Iranian people based on the actions of their government. There's millions of Iranians pushing for change, and the Mullah's know it. I think there'll be a democratic revolution in Iran with a generation.

Quartus
December 28, 2003, 01:27 PM
Let's hope they have sense enough to push for a republic, instead, Mark. Democracy is a bad idea.


we will not see
peace between Israel and the Muslim world anytime soon.


Duh.

Those who think such a thing can be negotiated are living in la-la land.

DigitalWarrior
December 28, 2003, 04:15 PM
To Hell with them!!!

If I had the power, after reading that I would put all US funded actions back on the plane and come home! Sorry people of Iran, but you need to run a fsck on your government.

What arrogant asses!!! See if they let Israel help, then maybe you would humanize them. Hey maybe with a couple of compassionate acts, we could end this stupid damnable war of cultures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To hell with them!!!!

Let their mothers and children choke and die under broken stone!

DigitalWarrior
December 28, 2003, 07:45 PM
My apoloies, I am no longer permitted to make public comments when outraged...

telewinz
December 28, 2003, 08:14 PM
Yea but I wonder if the victims would turn down Israel's help. They have a "vested" interest.

Greg Bell
December 28, 2003, 08:30 PM
Very sad. It is things like this we should remember when people tout easy solutions to the MidEast troubles. It will be a long time before those poor people see peace.

Ky Larry
December 28, 2003, 11:30 PM
This shows the central problem western nations face when dealing with the Arab world. We try to use reason, logic, and common sense. As I said on another thread, you can't reason with a fanatic. These are the people who murder children to further their religious beleifs. They would rather die than change their social and religious structures. I don't really mind if they die in thier holy jihad and I beleive it is our duty to help them go to paradise. The biggest mistake the Shah of Iran made was trying to drag Iran out of the middle ages and into the Twentith Century. Bush I missed his chance when the Ayatollah died and 5 million of his psycho followers we out in the streets for his funeral. One small nuke detonated at about 5000 feet would have flashfried some of the most insane murders in history and set their cause back many years.

bfason
December 28, 2003, 11:49 PM
This shows the central problem western nations face when dealing with the Arab world.

The Iranians are not Arabs; they are Persians.

lapidator
December 28, 2003, 11:57 PM
Well ofcourse they dont want Isreal sending help. Those zionists doctors would be simply bottling up all that Islamist blood to make cookies with. Those pesky zionists.

And we can send our docs as they would spend all their time stealing Irans oil.

(can't say i'm surprised of this news)

lapidator

JPM70535
December 29, 2003, 12:08 AM
As I heard said when the casualty toll was announced, thats that many less we will have to deal with later on. How can any civilized country deal with a religion/State that feels there is no sin in Killing "THE INFIDEL" Thats you and me folks, and so I shed no tears.

Ky Larry
December 29, 2003, 12:15 AM
The Iranians are not Arabs;they are Persians.


Very true. I should have said Muslim instead of Arab. I stand corrected, Sir.

bfason
December 29, 2003, 01:16 AM
Bush I missed his chance when the Ayatollah died and 5 million of his psycho followers we out in the streets for his funeral. One small nuke detonated at about 5000 feet would have flashfried some of the most insane murders in history and set their cause back many years.


No problemo. I mean, what's a little bit of genocide among friends? They're all just a bunch of crazy sand******s, right?


:barf:

Greg Bell
December 29, 2003, 01:21 AM
bfason,

A bit harsh perhaps, but you are right. This thread is getting a wee bit uncomfortable.
:uhoh:

romulus
December 29, 2003, 01:33 AM
Let's hope they have sense enough to push for a republic, instead, Mark. Democracy is a bad idea.
How about a democratic republic...I mean, they ARE a republic as of now

erem
December 29, 2003, 04:35 AM
Again, these are the actions of the Islamist hardliners in control of the Iranian government. There was a large candlelight vigil in Tehran after 9/11, one of few in the Muslim world. Many of the youth of the country are pro-American. Offering the people aid shouldn't hurt their views.

-erem

Ky Larry
December 29, 2003, 10:47 AM
What's a bit of genocide among friends?

Call it what you will but I have no problem doing it to them before they do it to me. Remember, these are the people who pray to their god that all Americans will be murdered in their "Holy War."

Ryder
December 29, 2003, 10:50 AM
Dawn (http://www.dawn.com/2003/12/22/top17.htm)

AL QUDS, Dec 21: Israel is considering an operation to destroy the nuclear capabilities of Iran, now regarded as the Jewish state's number one enemy, Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz was quoted as saying on Sunday.

If a decision is made to destroy Iran's nuclear capability, "the necessary steps will be taken so that Iranian citizens will not be harmed," the Haaretz daily cited Mofaz as telling Israel radio's Persian service last week.

--

There's more to the article, It goes on to say that 4 days prior to these statements Iran signed additional protocol of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty which opens the way for snap UN inspections of suspect sites.

I don't see anything wrong with Iranian logic in refusing help from Israel. I don't know of any country that would act friendly toward their self-proclaimed number one enemy other than the way the United States has with China.

Russ
December 29, 2003, 11:40 AM
There is, and always will be, enmity between these two groups of people. Unless you fell off a turnip truck in front of where you live yesterday, as apparently Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter did, you should understand this. Just as the US federal debt will never be paid in full, neither will the Israelites ever reconcile with the rest of the Middle Eastern peoples, at least not on a permanent basis.

DigitalWarrior
December 29, 2003, 01:09 PM
I am sorry for my intemporate outburst. I think that this thread was getting unconfortable in part because of me.

I just know that the best way to erase emnity is to humanize your enemy. If a couple of people (The hated Jews) showed compassion towards individual Iranians, then those who recieved compassion would understand that not all Jews are bad.

I think the leaders of IRAN know this, so they don't let it happen. They know if the Jews aren't their scapegoat (clever jewish refernce, ha ha)then the people will look for who is at fault for their circumstance.

All eyes would turn to Tehran.:fire:

Ky Larry
December 29, 2003, 02:08 PM
DigitalWarrior has hit the nail on the head.

w4rma
December 29, 2003, 02:17 PM
Some folks need to calm down, because they sound just like the Iranian leadership.

Do you folks really want to make this thing into a Muslim vs. Jew vs. Christian battle? Yes, there are many people who do want this, but do *you*?

Iran is ruled by religious fundamentalists. They are **extremely** conservative and **extremely** right-wing. There are liberal elements in Iran trying to moderate their leadership. IMHO, the best thing to do is to support those moderating elements and condemn the far-right, fundamentalist nut jobs that rule the place.

Quartus
December 29, 2003, 02:18 PM
Yup.

Leatherneck
December 29, 2003, 02:26 PM
IMHO, the best thing to do is to support those moderating elements and condemn the far-right, fundamentalist nut jobs that rule the place. I couldn't tell whether w4rma was referring to Iran or the USA! :neener: :evil:

TC
TFL Survivor

MicroBalrog
December 29, 2003, 02:26 PM
w4rma - I agree with you. Again.:)

Hutch
December 29, 2003, 02:49 PM
w4rma, there was another thread in which the term "Liberal" was analyzed at some length, especially as it regards to gun control. Care to share with us how the Iranian theocracy could be described as "conservative", as we use the term in the U.S.A.? Seems like a pejorative, the way some people throw around the term "racist" or "Nazi" to denounce that with which they disagree.

w4rma
December 29, 2003, 04:51 PM
Gun control has no place in liberal ideology, IMHO. American liberalism is pro-personal freedom/libertarian on personal freedoms. Liberals tend towards opposing efforts to dictate personal morality to people through the law.

Remember, Brady is a Republican.

IMHO, gun control is an urban vs. rural issue. Republicans have, recently, gotten the majority of their support from rural America, while Democrats have, recently, gotten the majority of their support from urban America.

Democrats in rural areas tend away from gun control and Republicans in urban areas tend to support gun control.

greyhound
December 29, 2003, 07:35 PM
How the heck does a discussion of Iran/Israel evolve into American liberal/conservative?

But since it did: I often say there is a difference between liberals and leftists. W4MA your definition of liberal sounds fine by me (think JFK as an example) but what I see in today's Democratic party are leftists.

Give me a Democrat who fits your definition and I would vote for him over Bush.

However, I cannot see JFK leaving his church over a bike path. Or threatening to "beat the s*** out of somebody" in a press covered speech.

w4rma
December 29, 2003, 08:13 PM
Here is some context, aka "bike path". IMHO, Dr. Dean is an extremely honorable and moral individual. He is also a devout Christian.


Dean is, without a doubt, an odd vessel for the quasi-religious fervor he has inspired. He almost never mentions God in his stump speeches and he rarely goes to church himself. Nevertheless, his rhetoric -- like his campaign structure -- is deeply grounded in the social practices of a ranch of radical Protestantism whose tenets still wield power in the structures of Vermont's government. The Pilgrims who gave America its foundational governing documents and ideas -- ideas that Dean now routinely references -- created a society based partly on the anti-authoritarian religious principles of Congregationalism, their religion (and, since the early '80s, Dean's).

Congregationalism, the dominant religion of colonial and early federal life, had by the 20th century become an obscure New England denomination about as relevant to modern life as covered bridges. Yet the legacy of the Congregationalists -- and their Unitarian descendants -- is one of the most powerful forces in the history of the American North. It was Congregationalists who landed the Mayflower on Plymouth Rock in 1620. Their descendants founded America's elite colleges, such as Harvard and Yale, and some of its most liberal ones, such as Oberlin and Amherst. Where the South bred agrarian populists and Baptist revivals, the North churned out Unitarian and Congregationalist ministers.

Dean's own conversion to Congregationalism was a more mundane political affair. He'd been christened as a Catholic and was raised Episcopalian. But he converted to the local Vermont religion as a consequence of his battle to make over the shoreline. "I had a big fight with a local Episcopal church about 25 years ago over the bike path," he told This Week with George Stephanopoulos in September. "We were trying to get the bike path built. They had control of a mile and a half of railroad bed, and they decided they would pursue a property-rights suit to refuse to allow the bike path to be developed." Dean eventually talked church leaders out of the lawsuit, recalls Sharp, but other railroad neighbors refused to budge and litigated the case all the way to U.S. Supreme Court.

The effort to restore the Lake Champlain shoreline was a turning point for Dean in his transformation from New Yorker to Vermonter: At the same moment, he both adopted the local faith and became involved in local politics. To this day, Dean remains devoted to the idea of local freedoms, local governing solutions and local control. He supports the assault-weapons ban, but other than that, prefers each state to draft its own gun-control laws -- a position that's earned him an "A" rating from the National Rifle Association. He signed the court-ordered civil-unions law in Vermont -- indeed, one lesbian couple in the suit that led to the law belong to the same Congregationalist church as Dean -- but does not favor any federal law on marriage. He's ferociously opposed to unfunded mandates that make impositions on state governments, such as the No Child Left Behind Act.

As Dean reflects traditions of Yankee independence in governance, he also reflects it in the organization of his campaign, in which local directors have an almost unprecedented autonomy. In New Hampshire, the field operation is using a theory of "relationships-based organizing" that tries to turn every committed supporter into a field operative, says former Seacoast coordinator Myles Duffy. "The rhetoric matches the structure of the campaign," notes Mathew Gross, Dean's blogger in chief and speechwriter. "It goes back to the fundamental unit of democracy, which is the town-hall meeting." (Or, in the case of the Dean campaign, the Meetup.)

It all comes out of the Vermont political tradition centered on the small town. "Congregational government puts power in the hands of the people to determine what they want at a scale that people can relate to," says John Nutting, a Congregationalist minister in Vermont who has written a history of Dean's Burlington church. "It was prized by both the church and by the secular structures of the state of Vermont, so that in many ways a similar pattern of participation existed both in the church and the civil society. Vermont hasn't abandoned it. We're a state of very small communities."

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/10/franke-ruta-g.html

I pay very close attention to the Dean campaign and I haven't heard anything about a "beat the s*** out of somebody" quote. I expect that one is probably hearsay.

rock jock
December 29, 2003, 08:15 PM
There's millions of Iranians pushing for change, and the Mullah's know it. I think there'll be a democratic revolution in Iran with a generation.
Yep, I agree. There are in fact a LOT of moderate Muslims in Iran. They are the young folks who are tired of the I-ah-told-ya and his clan. Folks under 25 currently comprise something like 50-60% of the population (partly thanks to Saddam). They cannot hold them back forever.

Iran is ruled by religious fundamentalists. They are **extremely** conservative and **extremely** right-wing.
Oh, get over it, will you, with these constant slams against conservatives. As transparent as your bias is, you might as well just accuse the religious leaders of being Republicans.

rock jock
December 29, 2003, 08:16 PM
IMHO, Dr. Dean is an extremely honorable and moral individual.
Well, you apparently set the bar pretty dang low.

w4rma
December 29, 2003, 08:18 PM
Well, you apparently set the bar pretty dang low.I set the bar very high, actually.Oh, get over it, will you, with these constant slams against conservatives. As transparent as your bias is, you might as well just accuse the religious leaders of being Republicans.Do you have no problem with extremist ideolouges? I do not trust extremist ideologues on either side of the fence.

rock jock
December 29, 2003, 08:22 PM
I do not trust extremists on either side of the fence.
Well, Dean should fit in nicely. He only believes in what the pollsters tell him.

Glock Glockler
December 29, 2003, 08:59 PM
w4rma,

Out of curiosity, how do you know that Dean is more and devoutly religous? He might market himself as such, but how do you know what he's really like away from the camera, do you know him personally?

rock jock,

Are Amreican movies publically banned in Iran because thy're corrupting? Are women allowed to go out in public without those stupid headscarves? Are men allowed to go topless or even wear shortsleaves?

I dont exactly know what "rightwing" means but they are extremely conservative, and I know many American fundamentalists that are not too different from those guys except that they're Christian instead of Muslim.

Quartus
December 29, 2003, 09:41 PM
I set the bar very high, actually.


It looks to me like you don't even know what the bar looks like. Dean is about as Christian as Rush Limbaugh.

Waitone
December 30, 2003, 12:10 PM
Dean's profession of allegiance to Jesus will not flush well in South Carolina.

fix
December 30, 2003, 12:23 PM
Here is some context, aka "bike path". IMHO, Dr. Dean is an extremely honorable and moral individual. He is also a devout Christian.

Mmmmhmmm...

Dean is, without a doubt, an odd vessel for the quasi-religious fervor he has inspired. He almost never mentions God in his stump speeches and he rarely goes to church himself.

By your fruits, ye shall be known. Dean is whatever he feels like he needs to be at the moment. To those of us not blinded by a paranoid hatred towards all things related to the current administration, Dean is a model of inconsistency...or as we say down south...wishy washy. Not a good quality to look for in a leader.

On the Iranian disaster...

Terrible business, both the quake and the political aftermath.

MicroBalrog
December 30, 2003, 01:29 PM
Oh, get over it, will you, with these constant slams against conservatives

ROFLMAO!

"With stereotypes, the only thing that often matters is whose stereo gets typed.

pax
December 30, 2003, 01:42 PM
Wow, this may be the worst case of thread drift I've ever seen.

Clear from earthquake in Iran to Dean's religious views ... wow.

Y'all might want to consider taking the discussion about Dean somewhere else.

Oh, and ease off a bit on the insults please.

pax

cratz2
December 31, 2003, 03:21 PM
Hrmm... I'll be a dissenter here, I guess.

Say we had a devastating earthquake Florida in 1963, and we had more than enough help from 'friend countries', how quickly would we have accepted assistance from the USSR? Or Cuba?

They are in a war, whether currently declared or not. Regardless of what any of us think, each side has their deeply seeded beliefs and we aren't going to change them. No one will EVER change them... It's been going on too long to ever change them.

If I were in power in Iran, I would have graciously declined assistance from Israel too. And if I were in power in Israel, I would have offered our assistance just as loudly as they did.

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