IPSC Production Question


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lawyer
January 1, 2011, 05:03 PM
Good day everyone,

I am looking to get into some IPSC stuff and the production division looks like a great place to start. I have a favorite sig 226 that I would like to use and I was just wondering if anyone knows if the factory "Action Enhancement Package" that the custom shop offers will void the IPSC eligibility?


According to the following descriptions it does not appear to violate the rules, but I figured I would ask those who know before I spend $200 on it...

Description of Factory Service:

Action Enhancement Package Our factory gunsmiths hone and polish critical surfaces to lighten and smooth both the double-action and single-action trigger pulls taking your SIG SAUER to the next level without voiding the factory warranty. (Excludes SP2009, SP2340, SP2022, 226X5, Mosquito, P238, P250 and 1911 models. Improvements are not as pronounced in our DAK trigger system and not generally recommended for DAK's). $169.95*

http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomShop/


Applicable IPSC Rules: Appx. D4

19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment,
or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved
handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

19.1. Modifications to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of
burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit
replacement OFM parts or components, and/or identifying marks
which add or remove negligible weight to/from magazines), are
prohibited. Other prohibited modifications include those which
facilitate faster reloading (e.g. flared, enlarged and/or add-on
magwells, etc.) changing the original color and/or finish of a
handgun, and/or adding stripes or other embellishments.



Thank you!

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1858
January 1, 2011, 05:45 PM
No one is going to know that you had the work done and no one is going to care, not that it's really an issue given that many "production" shooters have their triggers "optimized". The SIG factory enhancment package is covered by the "minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit replacement OFM parts or components" description since who's to say that SIG didn't clean up the trigger group as part of warranty work? Also, you'll be up against a bunch of pistols that don't have a DA pull for the first shot so no one is going to give you a second look. I shoot ISPC single stack and limited class because I like the .45 ACP cartridge and want the benefit of shooting "major". There's no "major" in production which is good for you with your 9mm.

Have fun ...

Hoser
January 1, 2011, 06:16 PM
Are you in the United States?

If you are, be sure to look at the USPSA rulebook and *not* the IPSC rulebook.

USPSA is the US version of IPSC.

Jim Watson
January 1, 2011, 06:34 PM
You are fine.
The factory package is not very radical and meets all the requirements I see.

NOTE: If you are in the USA, you are governed by USPSA rules, not IPSC. Go to www.uspsa.org and look up the rules there. There are some differences.

I think USPSA D21.5 applies.
INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted
to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may
be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket
parts.
Special Notes/Clarifications:
• Strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors,
and any other part which is NOT visible when the
gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part
and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise
prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific
prohibitions).
• Guide rods are considered an “internal part” and
may be modified and/or replaced with OEM or aftermarket
guide rods even though part of the guide rod
is externally visible when the gun is in battery. Note
that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and
relevant.


I have shot IDPA Stock Service Pistol with a Bruce Gray P226 with every improvement allowed under their rules, which is more than what Sig will do in their package. More expensive, too.

The_Vigilante
January 3, 2011, 12:09 PM
If you want to be competitive in USPSA Production better you get a Glock or M&P!!!

Hk Dan
January 3, 2011, 02:39 PM
No, not true Vigilante. Sigs can run with the big dogs too, expecially with that trigger job. I've seen a guy run an X5 and just dominate the Division. He had a 228 that he ran too, and did quite well. Don't sell Sig short because you don't see a lot of them. He'll do just fine with that trigger.

Hoser
January 4, 2011, 11:03 AM
better you get a Glock or M&P!!!

Or a CZ, Sig, ect.

I made GM shooting a Steyr M9.

Cosmik de Bris
January 4, 2011, 11:58 PM
Don't forget the CZ SP01 Shadow, great trigger.

1SOW
January 5, 2011, 12:14 AM
Vigilante: In last years USPSA Nationals in Vegas, You'll find CZ took 'Production' awards.
You are correct that Glock was a winner in 'Limited' ( or maybe it was limited 10). Many of the top shooters were using Glock, M&P and a couple of others including Sig..

David E
January 5, 2011, 12:55 AM
In last years USPSA Nationals in Vegas, You'll find CZ took 'Production' awards.

It may have taken Production "awards" but it did NOT take High Overall Production. Dave Sevigny did with his Glock drawn from a KyTac holster.

twofifty
January 10, 2011, 07:59 PM
Unfortunately, IPSC Production rules DO NOT allow "trigger or action jobs" beyond removing or honing burrs. Changing hook angles is a no-no. You can replace components such as hammers and springs only with factory OEM parts listed on the manufacturer's website or catalog. Same with OEM mags.

Oddly enough, aftermarket mags that are identical in size to the OEM mag are allowed, and these can be finessed.

I don't like IPSC's limitation on "trigger jobs". It did, however, force me to develop a reasonable DA first shot.

David E
January 10, 2011, 08:21 PM
Unless one is going to attend an IPSC World Shoot, or North American Challenge, then the IPSC rules are moot.

Sanctioned USA matches follow USPSA rules, not IPSC.

Hoser
January 10, 2011, 11:25 PM
IPSC Production rules DO NOT allow "trigger or action jobs" beyond removing or honing burrs. Changing hook angles is a no-no.

Any chance you can show me that in either an IPSC or USPSA rulebook?

Six
January 11, 2011, 05:30 PM
Unless one is going to attend an IPSC World Shoot, or North American Challenge, then the IPSC rules are moot.

Sanctioned USA matches follow USPSA rules, not IPSC.

This is a really important distinction. Use USPSA rules if your club shoots USPSA, which they most likely do.

USPSA and IPSC are frequently used interchangeably for the same sport, but the rules are not the same - they're similar, but not the same.

USPSA allows internal modifications in production division.

twofifty
January 11, 2011, 09:02 PM
Hoser - here is a direct quote from the current IPSC rulebook (Jan. 2009 ed.)

From Appendix D4 - Production Division - Special Conditions:

Spec. Condition 19:
Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following:

19.1 Modification to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required to fit replacement OFM parts or components, and/or identifying marks which add or remove negligible weight to/from magazines), are prohibited. Other prohibited modifications include those which facilitate faster reloading (e.g. flared, enlarged and/or add-on magwells, etc.), changing the original color and/or finish of a handgun, and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes or other embellishments.

19.2 Base plates and/or any other devices which provide additional ammunition capacity (e.g. "+2 magazine extensions), are prohibited.

19.3 Sights may be trimmed, adjusted and/or have sight black added.

Special Condition 20:
Aftermarket parts, components and accessories are prohibited, except as follows:

20.1 Aftermarket magazines which match the external dimensions of standard magazines offered by the OFM for the [IPSC] approved handgun are permitted.

20.2 Aftermarket open sights (see Rule 5.1.3.1) are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

20.3 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the [IPSC] approved handgun and/or the application of tape or grips (see Appendix F4) is permitted, however, rubber sleeves are prohibited.

Special Condition 21:
A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1 [this means the competitor will be required to compete in Open Division rather than Production Div.].

It is also a Production Div. rule that the trigger pull for the first DA shot must be 5# at minimum. As you know, most Production guns have a DA pull in excess of 8#, some less, some much more.

iirc, USPSA rules allows the trigger and action jobs that IPSC doesn't - which is what Six has posted above.

UniversalFrost
January 11, 2011, 09:33 PM
for certain guns the rules are a little more vague.

example is 1911's and the myriad of factory options that one can buy for it. For my local league there are a lot of folks that like to make up additions to the rules, so always be prepared and have a copy of the rules with you.

I have a 1911 Springfield Loaded model and I went to the local match last weekend (with rule book in hand) and attempted to submit my 1911 for the production class. I had a lot of whining and moaning from some of the other folks, but I only shut them up when I showed them the printout from springfield on the loaded model and then highlighted the rules as mentioned above.

Of course if i just had internal mods (like on one of my 92FS) then I would never let them know and they wouldnt really care (and they havent, even when i whipped their rears several matches in a row).

Jim Watson
January 11, 2011, 09:51 PM
I don't guess you showed them the part where it says a Production pistol must be double action.

1SOW
January 11, 2011, 10:07 PM
David E is of course correct. The point is you don't have to shoot a Glock to be competitive.

1 Dave Sevigny --Glock
2 Matt Mink --CZ Shadow
3 Phil Strader
4 BJ Norris
5 Rodney N Mays
6 Shane Coley
7 Mike Hughes (?)
8 Chuck Anderson
9 Ben Stoeger
10 Max Miche

UniversalFrost
January 11, 2011, 11:58 PM
no and they didnt ask.

Hoser
January 12, 2011, 02:16 AM
twofifty, where do you see "Changing hook angles is a no-no" in either the IPSC or USPSA rulebook?

Smokin Gator
January 12, 2011, 06:16 PM
But you are aware that a single action only gun is not legal in production and still insisted on shooting it? Why? Mark

David E
January 12, 2011, 07:51 PM
no and they didnt ask.

The club didn't know that Production division PROHIBITS single action guns??

And YOU did, but decided not to tell them?

This reflects poorly on both of you.

Surely, you abided by this "Special Condition," right?

Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal.

(you forgot, right?)

ONLY if a gun is on the official "Approved" list for Production can it be used.

Here is the "Approved" list of guns sold by Springfielf Armory:

P9 (32.2 oz.), XD .45 ACP Compact 4" (29 oz.), XD .45 ACP Compact 5" (31 oz.), XD Service model 357SIG 4" (26 oz.), XD Service Model 40S&W 4" (29 oz.), XD Service Model 45ACP 4" (29 oz.), XD Service Model 45GAP 4" (28.8 oz.), XD Service model 9mm 4" (28 oz.), XD Sub-Compact 40S&W 3" (23 oz.), XD Sub-Compact 9mm 3" (26 oz.), XD Tactical Model 357SIG 5" (32 oz.), XD Tactical Model 40 S&W 5" (32 oz.), XD Tactical Model 45ACP 5" (32 oz.), XD Tactical Model 45GAP 5" (31 oz.), XD Tactical Model 9mm 5" (32 oz.), XDM 40 Cal. 4.5" Barrel (30.4 oz.), XDM 40S&W 3.8" Barrel (28 oz.), XDM 45 ACP 4.5" Barrel (31 oz.), XDM 9mm 3.8" Barrel (28 oz.), XDM 9mm 4.5" Barrel (32 oz.)
Ported models are allowed providing that the barrel is non-ported and the other requirements are met.

Inexplicably, your single action 1911 style gun ISN'T TO BE FOUND!

The more I think about this, the more I want to know the club, so I can send them this BASIC info.

twofifty
January 13, 2011, 12:25 AM
Hoser, I am speaking only to IPSC rules as I only shoot IPSC format HG matches. I don't have a copy of USPSA's rules, nor am I familiar with the USPSA match format, divisions, etc.

IPSC's Prod. Div. Special Conditions apply to all IPSC-approved production handguns. These run-of-the-mill service-type HGs are listed on IPSC's website. IPSC intends that Prod. HGs be as close as possible to the factory original, therefore mods are severely restricted. The idea is that this makes Prod. div. an even field, and an affordable entry point to the game.

The rules' Special Condition 19.1 states that "Modification to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required to fit replacement OFM parts or components ....), are prohibited."

Changing sear hook angles is an IPSC no-no because that particular work involves more than:
- minor detailing,
- burr removal, or
- adjustments needed to fit a replacement OFM part or component.

Changing the hook angle requires the removal of more metal than simply honing burrs. If you look up this subject on IPSC's Global Village forum, you will see that members of IROA (the officiating body) are, unfortunately, in full agreement.

It is nice that USPSA has no objections to internal trigger and action work.

Promod1385
January 14, 2011, 12:01 PM
Better trigger jobs can be had for less money when it comes to a Sig. Check out www.triggerwork.net or www.grayguns.com. Gray is pretty much the top Sig smith around and while his prices are a bit higher, they are second to none in quality.

9mmepiphany
January 14, 2011, 02:17 PM
Gray is pretty much the top Sig smith around and while his prices are a bit higher, they are second to none in quality.

Bruce is a USPSA and IDPA GM shooter and used to shoot for H&K and Sig before his retirement...he was ranked 6th at the IPSC World Championships.

He has built up Sigs for USPSA Production and Limited (a very cool X-Five) and is currently shooting a modded AR-24 (all that experience on the CZ/P9 didn't go to waste)...I'm sure you could call and ask him what work is possible to stay legal in Production.

Hoser
January 16, 2011, 01:29 PM
Changing the hook angle requires the removal of more metal than simply honing burrs. If you look up this subject on IPSC's Global Village forum, you will see that members of IROA (the officiating body) are, unfortunately, in full agreement.

That sucks. I really hate it when people are allowed to make a judgment call when there is *already* something in black and white.

Yet another reason why I am glad there isnt many IPSC matches in the USA.

vetts1911
January 17, 2011, 10:54 AM
Dont want to go off the post subject but, that thinking of Glock, XD, M&P autos being a double action still pushes the line in my book. A Sig 226, CZ75, Beretta 92 you can move the action from rest with the trigger.

I feel the true way to call it a double action would be strike the hammer twice on an empty chamber.

twofifty
January 17, 2011, 08:47 PM
vetts, that is an interesting way of differentiating what's what in the DA world.

It would effectively eliminate from Production Div. all HGs that use the first part of the first trigger stroke to finish cocking their striker.

The next question would be figuring out what division the XDs, Glocks etc could compete in....

vetts1911
January 17, 2011, 11:02 PM
I feel the way they (XD, Glock, M&P auto) cock is the same way we cock all of our single actions but, with dont have a hammer to thumb only the slide to reset.

ESP or Limited.

Kind of brings that ESP heat back from the XD call in IDPA.

GruntmaN
February 1, 2011, 02:11 PM
Hello All,

I have a good amount of experience with rifles and Shotguns but am new to pistols. IPSC and IDPA look like a whole lot of fun. The glock34 and CZ Shadow are the two guns I like and shoot best. I shot the SP-01 not the shadow but I can't imagine the Shadow being worse...

Anyway, will either gun keep me out of any type of competition? The Glock 34 looks like the trigger pull is a little light from the factory. The Shadow has the custom sights and the factory trigger job.
Thanks in advance for your help.

vetts1911
February 1, 2011, 02:20 PM
They are both USPSA legal.

The SP01 is close in IDPA SSP because of the weight.

The G34 is good to go in USPSA and IDPA SSP and ESP

Just go the web site for USPSA and IDPA and you will get the right info.

The rules do change.

You can have trigger work, sight work, some grip tape to be legal.

coyotehunter223
February 10, 2011, 03:32 PM
I just upgraded to a Glock 35 G4 (from a Ruger P89) to shoot production with, chose the 35 (.40) instead of the 34 (9mm) to be able to move up to Limited later on this year without having to buy another gun.

One thing I like about Glocks is the massive amount of aftermarket for them, and the prices for the parts are relatively cheap compared to other manufacturers.

One of the guys at the clubs here shoots a modded SP-01 in Limited, so that would also be a great IPSC gun if you decided to move up later.

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