[SGTaylor]

I've been reading this forum for some time and I'm very impressed by the accumulated knowledge that exists here. I've got a question I hope some of you can help with.


Being new to handguns (I recently bought my first .38 Special), I'm a bit confused about +P ammo. As I understand it +P is a more powerfull round - more muzzle velocity and energy than standard rounds. I also understand +P ammo should only be used in modern steel frame guns. My confusion comes in comparing +P and standard rounds that have the same bullet weight. It seems like some standard rounds are rated with very similar MV and Ft-LBs (in some cases the same?) as the +P rounds. That would seem to make them equal - or nearly equal. Am I missing something? Is there some other difference between the two?

Thanks.

[tango3065]

The size of the shell doesnt really matter most shells are only filled around half up with powder, +p 's are made by adding a little extra dose of powder or sometimes using a little hotter powder and are on the borderline with the maximum amount of powder that is to be safetly used in a particular cartrige. As for +p's in a defense gun it gives you a little extra edge in power because its a hotter round.

[Jim March]

Well first, if you've seen specs for a "+P" round that seemed wimpy as hell, it was probably a Federal.

I do NOT know why people keep buying and recommending Federal 38+P ammo unless it's a small-batch +P+ run done up for some police agency. Otherwise, it is notoriously underpowered. At one point, they had a near-monopoly on advanced jacketed hollowpoints (the Hi-Shock and Hydrashock) but the days when those were the dominant design are LONG over with. The Speer Gold Dots kicked their butts and sent 'em running home to mama a long time ago, and THOSE can be found loaded with honest powder charges by Speer, Georgia Arms, Black Hills, Proload and others.

Second: in addition to raw power, companies tend to package their best-quality expanding defensive projectiles in +P. They know that people buying "the good stuff" want some heat.

Third: while the difference between +P and otherwise is often pretty slim (50fps isn't uncommon), differences that small can be the difference between expansion and failure in a 2" or even 3" barrel. If you have a 4" or 6" 38Spl gun and can find some 158grain lead hollowpoints in standard-velocity loadings, they might get up enough head of steam to expand.

But you'll have a bloody difficult time just finding such a load.

[tbeb]

A non +P 158 gr. lead semi-wadcutter does about 750 fps from a 4" barrel. A +P 158 gr. semi-wadcutter does about 890 fps from a 4" barrel.

Offhand, I can only think of one standard pressure load that is as fast as a +P load, and that is the Hornady 125 gr. JHP.

[Jim March]

Ya, but the Hornady XTP is the wrong choice for ANY 38Spl. It needs more speed to work with, in my opinion...it's a thick-jacketed puppy that comes into it's own as a hunting load.

[E=MC^2]

SAAMI figures might help a little-

.38 Special............17,000psi
.38 +P Special.......18,500psi
.357 Magnum........35,000psi
.357 Maximum.......40,000psi

Ya, but the Hornady XTP is the wrong choice for ANY 38Spl. It needs more speed to work with, in my opinion...
I've had similar results doing hillbilly tests using XTP's in a 9mm. Using waterjugs and phonebooks, the recovered bullets are nearly reloadable. These were with 115gr.

I found out yesterday that Corbon uses Sierra bullets for their defensive JHP line. One of the employees said they tell them their requirements for jacket thickness and lead density and Sierra builds it.

I like the Corbons for autoloaders but they're the only brand that pulls bullets in my scandium 340PD. Doesn't matter what bullet weight I try.

[Gordon]

Hey guy's besides getting the flu for Christmas I got 2 boxes of 38 special , (yellow box with plain black printing stating Jurras bullets) Supervel ammo. It brought tears to my eyes, haven't seen it for 15-20 years . It does not say +power(don't think the terms were invented yet) but when I chronograph these 110grain huge hollowpoint blue pill whistlers I bet they do 1100fps out of a 4" barrell!!! Any bets?:D

[Jim March]

No bet here. SuperVels STILL have a rep as killers :).

[BluesBear]

And you can bet that those WILL expand as well.

I fondly rememner the first Super-Vels I ever fired. It was almost a religious experience.

[SGTaylor]

Thanks for all your responses. Jim - I used your revolver checkout suggestions when I purchased my .38. Thanks for that fine info.

Are the Remington Golden Sabre BJHP or Winchester SuperX Silvertip HP a good choice?

Thanks.

[Sarge]

Gordon, you got a piece of history for Christmas. Congratulations. I correspond with Lee Jurras occasionally and he is still quite active in the handgun game, fiddling mostly with big stuff like the .475 these days. I hope history records that it was ol' Lee who gave us our first taste of what was possible with expanding handgun ammo. I can recall when I fired my first Super Vel .38's, as well as the 'white-box Treasury Loads' that were issued by a government agency or two that I was associated with. They were like lighting up a .357 in a .38 case- big fireball, lotsa horsepower.

SgTaylor, for what it's worth I still use the old FBI Load (.38+/158/SWCHP) whenever I carry a .38. I used to buy Winchester's rendition of this load in quantity for my LE agency, and if you can find it, it's as good as anybody's. I can tell you that some specialty ammo outfits are looking at resurrecting the genuine SWCHP +P concept in some calibers besides .38 as well, and it's a sound concept that has worked for decades.

In the end, it's what the load does in your particular gun that's important to you. A chronograph will tell that story, if you have access to one. As longas your getting 850 fps or thereabouts, you're getting enough velocity to drive that bullet in where it needs to be. It might even expand some, but where you put it it what makes the difference.

Good luck, & good shooting.

[Majic]

To compare them apples to apples, both rounds have to be fired thru barrels of the same length. A +P load fired thru a short barrel will show the same or less velocity of a standard round fired thru a long barrel. The problem is that most ammo makers omit what length barrel they used. Another factor could be whether the maker used a real revolver or a test barrel. The revolver of course has a separate chamber and barrel with the resulting gap. The test barrel is just a barrel with a chamber reamed into the breech (the same as a semi-auto) and without a B/C gap to lose pressure it will create higher velocities.
Omitting the fine details to print the highest possible velocity can be attributed to the advertising department.

[Jim March]

There are a very small number of 38+Ps I'd trust to perform in a snubby. Three that I can get easy and have tested well in published gelatin reports (both plain and denim-wrapped, tested in 2" barrels) are:

1) Winchester 130grain Supreme +P: it's a JHP with a freakin' HUGE hollowpoint cavity. I'd be willing to bet that a cavity that big just cannot work with a semi-auto. It'd hang up on the feed ramp.

2) The "old standard": 158grain plain soft lead hollowpoint (LSWC-HP) +P. Known as the "Treasury Police load", Chicago load", "Metro load" and similar for various police agencies that used to use it. It's a primitive, old-school hollowpoint but it tends to expand fairly well at modest snubby-grade velocity and it's got the weight to punch deep. It's cheap, low-tech, not flashy and has been phased out completely by Federal, Remington has almost halted production and only Winchester still takes it seriously and even then it's hard to find.

UPDATE: Georgia Arms is now making these! Haven't tried 'em yet but they're CHEAP and if they're as good as that company's products typically are...:D. They're also available in 100, 500 and 1,000 bulk packs. My gun, unfortunately, is barely able to handle +P pressures (late '70s Charter Arms Undercover) so I practice with standard velocity...otherwise, not being a reloader yet, I'd buy these GAs in bulk and be done with it, as they're barely more expensive than reloads!

3) The Gold Dot 125grain projectile loaded to 38+P speeds and of the shape *designed* for 38+P speeds versus 357. The right one is loaded by Proload, Georgia Arms and Black Hills, in addition to Speer.

There's maybe a couple more that are worth talking about in snubs. Those listed will get the job done. I wouldn't hesitate to use any of these in a 4" or 6" barrel either, although there are probably additional rounds that would work with that much velocity.

Ah, one more: Cor-Bon's 110 and 125 +P loads are HOT HOT HOT, to the point where they probably shouldn't be shot at all in some 38s (classic Colt Dick Specials, Charters, early aluminum frame from any maker, S&W M&Ps/early 10s or other Ks, etc.). BUT, if you have a 357 or tough 38 gun and are looking at some sort of intermediate step down from full Magnums, the Cor-Bons might make sense.

[BluesBear]

.38 Special............17,000psi
.38 +P Special.......18,500psi
.357 Magnum........35,000psi

IIRC these are maximun working oressures?

That means that a .38 special loading that runs 16,050psi COULD be termed +P since it is near the top of the standard pressure curve.

While someone could load the same 16,050psi load and NOT call it a +P.

+P should only be taken into consideration if you are planning on using a LOT of them in a older or alloy frame weapon. Maximum loads are going to be harder on any gun but most loads from the major companies will be well below maximum.

I'd like to see the ammunition companies start printing the average pressures of a load right along with the velocity. Or at least they could establish an "alloy" rating that would be mean the pressures were below a certain level so as to be gentler on alloy or older steel frames. It might also induce the manufacturers to try and produce some more "efficient" loadings. Somewhat like the automobile makers did when mandated to increase MPG on motor vehicles.