Timing ? again


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ontarget
January 2, 2011, 09:08 PM
I know that I have a problem. My '51 timing is off. If I pull the hammer all the way back, it rotates the cylinder too far. The problem is that it also locks up in this position. Can this be adjusted or do I need a gunsmith? I do know a lot about mechanical things and feel confident to do it myself, but was hoping for a little direction. Thanks.

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junkman_01
January 2, 2011, 10:04 PM
It sounds like the hand is a bit too long. You will have to disassemble the gun completely and stone the hand down a little at a time and reassemble to keep trying it. Be patient, you will get it right eventually.

Hellgate
January 3, 2011, 01:36 AM
Before you shorten the hand, does the bolt come up and seat into the bolt stop (groove cut in the cylinder) to lock the gun up? You could have a slow rising of the bolt which could allow the cylinder to over travel beyond the bolt stop cutout on the cylinder. If that is the case then the bolt wing needs to be shortened rather than the hand. I guess it all depends on what you mean by "locks up" as to what you need to do to fix it.

Sunray
January 3, 2011, 01:41 AM
"...My '51...'" What brand? Not all BP revolver brands are created equal. I'd give it a really good bath before I did anything else. Then I'd think about parts.

ontarget
January 3, 2011, 09:09 PM
Brand is ASM. Believe me it is clean. What I mean by lock up is that the bolt locks it in place so that it wont roll. The cylider that is. It also shows wear marks on both sides of the recesses in the cylinder where the bolt would engage.

Chazz
January 3, 2011, 09:22 PM
I would 1st check the stop spring, it could be bent or broken.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1146

junkman_01
January 3, 2011, 09:36 PM
Brand is ASM. Believe me it is clean. What I mean by lock up is that the bolt locks it in place so that it wont roll. The slider that is. It also shows wear marks on both sides of the recesses in the cylinder where the bolt would engage.
Like I said in the beginning, the hand is too long.

rdstrain49
January 3, 2011, 10:00 PM
bolt may be a bit oversize (too wide) and---like junkman says-------

ontarget
January 3, 2011, 10:17 PM
The hand is definitely too long, but if I narrow the bolt will this make the cylinder sloppy?

Chazz
January 3, 2011, 10:19 PM
the bolt could be over sized etc... no matter... take it all apart and check the stop spring 1st before filing anything down, it could be bent or broken pushing on the bolt. There is a thread somewhere here on how to disassemble the 51... it's fun to do :)..... just check all the parts carefully before breaking out the file, I would bet you will be able to fix it.

ontarget
January 3, 2011, 10:28 PM
She gets a thorough break down and cleaning every time out and I haven't noticed any broken parts but I guess the spring could be bent?

junkman_01
January 3, 2011, 10:37 PM
Be serious Chazz, that bolt spring is not going to make the cylinder over rotate.

Chazz
January 3, 2011, 10:41 PM
if you never had problems with the bolt before, it's possibly the stop spring is bent, they can wear out and cause the problem your having, it can either loosing the bolt or make it lock up high like yours...etc.

then again so can an over-sized bolt or out of wack hand spring.... It's just a guessing game, until you look at the parts...

Chazz
January 3, 2011, 10:42 PM
Be serious Chazz, that bolt spring is not going to make the cylinder over rotate.

yes it will... if it's broken... ask any gunsmith.

For example, if there is not enough tension on the spring, the cylinder can over rotate, and possibly lock up... to much tension on the bolt can scratch the cylinder and possibly lock it up... etc... it's all connected, it's the butterfly effect lol....

However I'm not saying that is the problem, It's just...... check all the parts carefully before he files anything down.....

ontarget
January 3, 2011, 11:18 PM
After inspection, I believe i may have multiple issues. This is not a new problem, I just didn't realize it was a problem until recently. I think this may be the cause of my bent wedge also (barrel/cyl misalignment). And even with light loads my loading lever falls nearly every shot. Sound about right?

Hellgate
January 3, 2011, 11:42 PM
If the bolt fits into the bolt stop recesses in the cylinder AND the bolt rises before the cylinder rotates past it, a long hand will not create over travel of the cylinder. The cylinder will be stopped. A weak spring could allow the bolt to skip past the cutouts and over travel but the gun would not be locked up. Dontcha just love all these conflicting opinions? Let's stay civil everbody. :D We'll get his gun figgered out. :D If it locks up (bolt seated in the cutouts) AND has over traveled then maybe the cutouts are not positioned properly. I've seen that on a Euroarms Remington that would lead up in the cylinder gap and seize withinin two shots due to poor chamber/barrel alignment.

ontarget
January 4, 2011, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the input Gent's. I will start with a thorough inspection and first figure out if the bolt even fits in the stops. then the hand, and all springs. I will not get out the files and stones till I make sure there isn't a problem with parts.

rcflint
January 4, 2011, 06:08 PM
As Hellgate said, it can't possibly overtravel if the bolt locked up. If you have overtravel, the bolt cannot be in the cylinder's notch. Check both the bolt/trigger spring for a crack, and the hand spring which, if weak, will allow overtravel, as it acts as a brake on the spinning cylinder. Does the clicking sound light when you spin the cylinder at half-cock?

ontarget
January 4, 2011, 10:15 PM
Found the problem. The recesses in the cyl. are machined in the wrong place, or out of time with the chambers. OR the slot in the bottom of the frame is in the wrong spot. Either way I broke her all the way down and put the bolt thru the slot and rotated the cyl. and sure enough it locked up in the same spot. looking down the barrel with a flash light I can see the edge of the chamber opening only on 1 side.

Hellgate
January 5, 2011, 01:48 AM
That is the problem I encountered on my Remington. Solution was: a new cylinder. Just happens that I had a spare Uberti cylinder that dropped right into the Euroarms gun and it lines up just fine now. I can see by comparing other guns that the bolt stop notches line up a certain way with the axis of each chamber. I've had both a Pietta and a Euroarms Remington with poor chamber to bore alignment. Both were 1970s-80s made guns. Don't ask me how to fix it other than a new cylinder. Moving the bolt over or recutting the notches is way out of my league.

junkman_01
January 5, 2011, 09:45 AM
ontarget,
I'm glad you found the problem. Who would have thought the cylinder machining was off? Good find, but kind of expensive to remedy.

TheRodDoc
January 5, 2011, 10:00 AM
Hellgate,


You didn't say if there is any rotational play in the cyl. when bolt has it locked. From wear in frame slot and or bolt faces.

If so is it enough that you can by hand rotate the locked cylinder to align the chamber to the bore?

Steel frame or brass?

The loading lever falling must be a problem with the latch.

rcflint
January 5, 2011, 04:28 PM
Mislocated cylinder notches was a problem many years ago with Uberti revolvers, and it seemed that all the "reject" guns of that nature were distributed by Mitchell and a few other bargain priced guns. The Cimarron and Navy Arms, etc. were all good. The only repair would be to weld up the notches and recut them, most likely more expensive than a new cylinder. ASM also had that problem often with notches cut at different spacings, so some chambers were left and some right and some aligned... That's perhaps one reason there is no longer an ASM.

ontarget
January 5, 2011, 11:01 PM
That was definitely the problem. miscut slots in the cyl. I decided to try something, I figured a new bolt would be cheapest if I screwed up so I started there. I filed a few thousandths off the side of the bolt, and it seems to have worked. the bolt seems to be too long also. This ASM was probably made in the late 80's since I purchased it in about '93 from the PX on Camp Lejeune NC. That may explain the poor quality.

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